KoF13 Tier List Discussion

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  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    K'?

    Nah. Ryo can most likely be the best character on the game if played a the highest level. There are good Ryo's now like Fox and Reynald's Ryo isn't too shabby neither. However, Ryo played at the best of his abilities can easily beat every character on the game.
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • irl II Wilsonirl II Wilson Joined: Posts: 398
    is there any tiers lists out atm ? can anyone link me to one ?
    [SIZE=14px]"I remind you of the things you were made to forget."[/SIZE]
  • Hyun SaiHyun Sai Joined: Posts: 360
    is there any tiers lists out atm ? can anyone link me to one ?

    Check this link from Dreamcancel : http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1908.msg57377#msg57377
  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686
    Now that I have a little time I am going to go over the Dream Cancel tier list and give my thoughts on what I don't agree with. This isn't a royal bashing party, merely what I personally do not find accurate but my opinion could be off.

    S: Mr. Karate, Hwa, Kyo (XIII), Benimaru, Kyo (EX), Iori (EX), Takuma, Goro

    A+: Kim, Iori (Claw), Yuri, Elisabeth, Robert, Andy, Billy, Saiki, K’, Shen

    A: Duo Lon, Kensou, Chin, Kula, Joe, Mature

    B+: Leona, Ash, Vice, Athena, Ryo, Raiden, King, Terry

    B: Ralf, Clark, Mai, Maxima

    Things that instantly jump out:

    Clark: I have no idea how Clark is ranked in the bottom tier, this is the only one of the bunch that makes absolutely 0 sense to me at all. They guy may not be everything in the kitchen sink, but he is for sure nasty and needs some respect. His mixup game is sick off of his command grab with his ambigous rolls and what not... his mixups are layered too. So it is initially a left/righ where he can go LOW or GRAB. If you block the low he can canel it into his grab... so if you initially guessed right you still might be guessing.

    Goro: I love Goro, I have always considered him underrated. That being said, I don't think he should be mentioned with he other characters in the top tier. The guy has some nasty matchups that lower his value at a tourney level imo, still a great character and I dont think A+ is too farfetch'd for him.

    Minor things that jump out:

    Ralf: I have been playing Ralf for a little while now and I dont think he is on Maxima and Mai's level of bad. Sure he has his issues, but he is a great point character and doesn't need meter to do damage. It may take him a little longer to land that first hit, but when he does it is going to hurt and he will BE ON DAT ASS. He will widdle down your guard meter with his frame traps and force you to make a decision (sometimes a bad one) and when it happens more damage. Momentum is his game. I think he is at least B+ (actually B+ seems about right for him)

    Vice: Vice with meter has one of the craziest neutrals in the game by being able to convert off of pretty much any hit anywhere. She doesn't do amazing damage, but she can get 3 or 4 conversions off the most retarded confirms which equal 2 or so of someone elses in a much harder to get confirm. Caked out, you don't have to worry about high/low/grab with her you need to worry about getting hit PERIOD. Should be higher imo, at least 1 tier up.

    Kensou: Massively underrated, I think he should be in the A+ area. He has a great fireball/dp game that is very street fighter esque and some of the most annoying corner pressure. He is a character you need to play patient against but he makes players do really stupid things.

    Takuma: He seems a bit high to me, I for sure think he is a monster, especially on the ground. But he has issues with people who like to jump on him and in KOF13 the air is a huge part of it due to normals being relatively weaker AA's compared to the games past. His command grab game is still among the best though so I think he should be A+.

    Duo Lon: People need to give Mad KOF more credit, he made Duo look a lot better than he actually is. I think he made a statement that Duo isn't as bad as people initially thought, but Duo Lon's at evo got away with a lot more than they should. I still think he is a very solid point with a unorthodox neutral, but it still doesn't take away that his damage isnt great for the meter he has to waste to make it decent and that a lot of his stuff is unsafe. Not bottom tier but B+ area.

    Saiki: I firmly believe when Saiki is on top of his game he is the most frustrating thing to try and take on. I think he deserves to be up with the top tier.

    Ryo: I am with Nagato on this one and think Ryo is really underrated, he has all the tools in the game to be excellent and when played at top notch there isn't anything he can't take on almost. I dont agree he might be #1 and I don't actually think he is S tier material but rather A+ Tier. Getting hit with that overhead into super is one of the most frustrating things lol.


    THe list itself is pretty good and I agree with a lot of it. Honestly the real only head scratcher is Clark to me.

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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher The man you love to hate Joined: Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Clark I would definitely place higher. He has good footsies and if he's just within mid-range he can easily put you in a 50/50 situation: You jump you run the risk of getting air grabbed or getting nailed with Gatlin' (Which is a good AA). If you stand still, he can use SAB which leads to hard knock down and he can put you in another 50/50 where you need to guess what he's going to do.

    Goro is good but he really needs to use meter to overcome bad matchups. The way Kauro used him was basically using EX roll to get through any kind of fireball zoning and land his grab. And rush them and use mindgames. He's definitely good but he requires good reading to use.

    Ralf's pressure game is amazingly good. Lacks everything else essentially.

    Ryo I've always thought was the best shoto character. Very fast invincible SRK with fast recovery, great fireball pressure that's almost completely safe and you cannot use GCR to punish him very well because of that recovery and he can bait you to waste meter like that. He does good damage, easy 25% guard damage, plus he's got parries...
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero Mai game play always has a reason behind it. You can forget about autopilot. Joined: Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭
    That Dream Cancel tier list did not make that much sense to me either. (What the hell is Clark AND Ralf doing down there anyway? They are MUCH better than that! And, Ryo, Mai, and ESPECIALLY King shouldn't even be that low either)! Most of us agree with the top tiers but every other character completely debatable! Regardless, now we are going to talk about Saiki!
    Saiki: I firmly believe when Saiki is on top of his game he is the most frustrating thing to try and take on. I think he deserves to be up with the top tier.

    And, this is the part where I happily explain why everyone else should think so too.

    Starter: High Tier. One of the best zoners in the game besides Athena and Joe. Seriously. The best projectile in the game: The Kiyoku no Tsuki projectile (the A version) travels at a medium speed so it is possible for Saiki to conduct a follow up after the projectile should he have a enough time... Saiki has a lot anti-air options as well. The C version of his Kiyoku can be treated as a anti-air, his DP, his Washiba Otoshi DM, and his cr.C. Saiki's D version DP has a follow-up. At three stocks and some drive meter, Saiki can batter the opponent violently thanks zoning and his teleport. Saiki can also apply some serious corner pressure (He has a air-target combo which is j.A > f.B) Saiki's B Donkey Kick is quick but the D version allow him to teleport without the use of meter. A meter-less combo's for Saiki would be like cr. B, cr. B, cr. B > qcb + B or Hop D, cl. C or D > qcb + D HOLD C > dp + B... A good meter-less corner combo for about 336 damage would be to start off with the air target combo (j.A > f.B) then press cl. C > qcb + D HOLD D, air b+B (land) dp + D HOLD D. This way you can catch your opponent off guard and build meter while conducting some good damage - part of the reason why he should be high tier. Saiki would probably fit best in this position.


    Battery: High Tier. For the same reasons mentioned above. You notice that Saiki has very good DM's, all of which can serve a specific purpose: Washiba Otoshi is a anti-air. Yami Otoshi is a air DM that can follow the opponent and goomba-stomp them. Saiki also has a projectile DM (that does not seem to let the opponent guard cancel until the very last hit because the hits registers so quickly while the opponent guards the move). Last, Saiki has another DM which is a command grab. Saiki also has a decent Neo Max, but it would not be a good idea to use it by itself and use it in a combo instead. It is possible to do over 1000 damage with his HD combo, the second reason why he is noteworthy in this game. For three meters, you can do this for 1006 j.D, s.D, (HD) s.D, qcb+D~C, dp+B, (HDC), qcf+C, qcb+D~D, air b+B, qcb+B, (HDC) qcf+C, qcb+D~D, air b+B, dp+B, (HDC) qcf+C, qcb+D~D, air qcf~qcf+B, (HDC) Neomax (THIS IS A CORNER COMBO EXAMPLE). For one stock Saiki can do a h[SIZE=13px]opping D into cl. C > qcb + D HOLD C, qcf(x2) + B or D for 377 damage or use his air target combo into [/SIZE]cl. C > qcb + BD HOLD D, air b+B, qcf + A, dp + D HOLD D for 426 as a good corner combo. Saiki has a lot of good combo opportunities from both the mid-screen and in the corner. Saiki's moves can fit into a huge variety of situations, but he is still recommended for first position while battery's like Andy, Kyo, Yuri, Mai or things like Kensou can do a magnificent job in the battery position.


    Anchor: High Mid Tier. Saiki's special moves aren't exactly safe here and as I said before, he really needs reliability on his zoning to smack his opponent around. The reason why he is lowered in this particular position is because he has no characters to back him up. This is going to happen to a lot of characters in this position save for about eight or nine others that may do well in this position *Shen and (Claw) Iori nod their head at you as you walk by...*
    Saiki special moves are going to require good timing so that he can keep himself safe (because he is unsafe after most of them anyhow). Saiki's A version Kiyoku has a very nice and beautiful hit box so PLEASE don't hesitate to use it when necessary. You can also keep yourself from getting anti-airs by using f.B in mid-air to stop yourself and put yourself on the ground. A nice tool for mix-ups, mind games, and valuable set-ups. While five stock meters are not particularly a bad idea for Saiki, he is still the last character - should you still intend to use HD combo's here is a good one for 963 damage... start off with his air target combo and then cl. C (HD) cl. C > (qcb + D~D, air b+B, dp + B, HDC, qcf + C)x2, qcb + D HOLD D, air b+B, dp + D (HDC) qcb + D HOLD D, air qcf(x2) B or D (MAX CANCEL) qcb hcf + AC for a nice finisher. Saiki is still recommended for first position.
    https://twitter.com/Great_Dark_Hero http://ask.fm/Great_Dark_Hero
    [KOFXIII]: MAI / Hwa / Takuma [Subs]: Terry, Beni, Iori, Leona
    [TTT2]: Armor King / Julia [Subs]: Michelle, Heihachi, Bruce
    [DOA5U]: Mila [Subs]: Pai, Helena, Nyotengu
    If you're learning about KOFXIII, please click on my FAQS here
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero Mai game play always has a reason behind it. You can forget about autopilot. Joined: Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭
    That Dream Cancel one is what Havatchu presented on the last page. This the tier list I made from the same guidelines but based on the information that we have discovered and spoke about:
    King = A / S / S
    Yuri = A+ / S / S
    Duo Lon = A+ / B+ / B
    Leona = A / A / A+
    Shen = A / A+ / S
    Mature = A+ / A+ / A+
    Mai = B+ / S / A
    Terry = B / A+ / A
    Claw Iori = B+ / A / S
    Regular Kyo = A+ / S / S

    After a week or so there been a change of opinion:
    Leona is now this: = A / A+ / A+ (She can basically get away with the same thing in her battery position as she could in her anchor position).
    Claw Iori is now this: = A / A+ / S (Claw DOES have good meter-less combo's and his EX HCB - K goes through a lot of projectiles and he still has a nice option select command throw after a jump-in and does a lot of damage - Iori's BnB's are rather simple much like King's are and he can get some very good resets off of his own combos as well for continuity purposes. He has a very nice Neo Max as well.
    Mai is now this = B / S / A+ (Mai's would only be playing keep-away and using punish BnB's in the first position unless the match up is in her own favor. While in the battery and anchor she can get away with a lot more and she is far scarier in the last two positions. With meter, her EX moves will set the opponent up for juggle and they are rather simple to hit confirm into as her normals have ludicrous priority).
    Mature is now this = A+ / S / A+ (Mature has a very large set of moves for many situations. She fits in very good in the battery position as well because she has a back-up character, she can be played in many ways, and... her hit confirms are RIDICULOUS. Her attacks are also easy to conduct a follow up after and she has many options after most of her attacks and very good resets).

    Everything else remains the same.

    Added Saiki:
    Saiki = S / S / A
    Betty = A+ / A+ / +

    Betty will be elaborated on in the near future.

    https://twitter.com/Great_Dark_Hero http://ask.fm/Great_Dark_Hero
    [KOFXIII]: MAI / Hwa / Takuma [Subs]: Terry, Beni, Iori, Leona
    [TTT2]: Armor King / Julia [Subs]: Michelle, Heihachi, Bruce
    [DOA5U]: Mila [Subs]: Pai, Helena, Nyotengu
    If you're learning about KOFXIII, please click on my FAQS here
    If you're learning how to play Mai Shiranui (or the Mai match up) on KOFXIII, start here

  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭
    Cafe ID interview, the list their top 5 and bottom 5
    http://dreamcancel.com/2012/07/21/dream-cancel-interviews-cafeid-kofxiii-players/
    How balanced do you all think KoFXIII is? In your opinions, who are the 5 strongest and 5 weakest characters in the game? Please elaborate on why you think these characters are strong/weak.
    Mad KOF : Kim, Shen, and Mr. Karate are considered high-tier characters here. Cafe:Id members just don’t play Mr.Karate because they think he’s not fun to play. Cafe:Id members usually choose fun characters to play, not strong characters. Guts and Verna also chose EX-Iori because he’s fun to play. In this case, EX-Iori is strong as well. KoFXIII is really well balanced. If you put your time and effort into any characters, they can be strong, except Robert and Athena (they just suck…).
    My top 5: Mr. Karate, Benimaru , Kim, King, EX-Iori. They’re strong in any order with / without meters. Therefore, I feel that they don’t have counters.
    Lacid : Top 5 – Yuri, Kim, Mr.Karate, King, and Shen. They all have strong normal moves and special moves.
    Verna: Top 5 – Kim, Chin, Shen, King, ex-Iori. These characters have strong HD combos, mix-ups, and normal moves.
    GUTS: Top 5 – Vice, EX-Iori, Kim, Mr.Karate, Saiki. They have strong combos and normal moves.
    Pikachu: Top 5 – Chin, Duo Lon, Yuri, Kim, King. They have strong mix-up games.
    Kensouzzang: Top 5 – Saiki, Billy, Shen, Vice, Mr.Karate. Strong normal moves, easy to hit confirm, and good combos.
    Id’s 1st Man: Top 5 – Mature , Billy, Shen, Yuri, EX-Iori. Strong normals.
    Cafe:Id: We feel that the bottom 5 are Athena, Robert, Elisabeth, Ash, and Mai. They need meters to be strong, and they may have some counters.
    I agree with Robert, Ash and Mai being relatively weak.
    "You are all just as bad as the people you hate. You're only interested in characters based on tears." - Since1717
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  • joeyjeremiahjoeyjeremiah Joey Jeremiah, Esq., at your service. Joined: Posts: 51
    Robert being weak is some serious bullshit. Robert has everything. Every tool you could possibly want on a character.

    Hitconfirms out the ass both high and low.
    Command crossup that can also be used for ultra speed like Iori/Kyo/Athena.
    Wall jump.
    Fireballs.
    DPs.
    Air and ground divekicks.
    Command grabs.

    I saw that shit last night and loled. Loaded up Robert in practice mode with the goal of finding a good 1 meter 1 drive. Got 445 damage out of him in the first 5 minutes. There's better damage out there but with the amount of tools Robert has it's a small price to pay. At the very least he's a great point.

    Cafe ID said they thought Billy was shit until Bala rocked them, so I'm not putting much stock in their "Robert is shit" analysis.
  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    Robert being weak is some serious bullshit. Robert has everything. Every tool you could possibly want on a character.

    Hitconfirms out the ass both high and low.
    Command crossup that can also be used for ultra speed like Iori/Kyo/Athena.
    Wall jump.
    Fireballs.
    DPs.
    Air and ground divekicks.
    Command grabs.

    I saw that shit last night and loled. Loaded up Robert in practice mode with the goal of finding a good 1 meter 1 drive. Got 445 damage out of him in the first 5 minutes. There's better damage out there but with the amount of tools Robert has it's a small price to pay. At the very least he's a great point.

    Cafe ID said they thought Billy was shit until Bala rocked them, so I'm not putting much stock in their "Robert is shit" analysis.

    Entirely agreed, Robert is one of the most slept on characters for sure.

    Isn't he the only character with a walljump?
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  • TerrastormTerrastorm Joined: Posts: 263
    Entirely agreed, Robert is one of the most slept on characters for sure.

    Isn't he the only character with a walljump?
    Mai has one.
  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686

    I agree with Robert

    ?????????

    Thanks for posting this btw
    XBL: NissanZaxima
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  • Hyun SaiHyun Sai Joined: Posts: 360

    Cafe ID said they thought Billy was shit until Bala rocked them, so I'm not putting much stock in their "Robert is shit" analysis.
    That's the same thing I replied in the Dreamcancel forum.

    You forgot to mention Robert must have one of the best raw Neomax of the game, doable with 2 bars using the 3 buttons tigerknee trick.

    I don't even think this character got ONE bad match-up.
  • joeyjeremiahjoeyjeremiah Joey Jeremiah, Esq., at your service. Joined: Posts: 51
    That's the same thing I replied in the Dreamcancel forum.

    You forgot to mention Robert must have one of the best raw Neomax of the game, doable with 2 bars using the 3 buttons tigerknee trick.

    I don't even think this character got ONE bad match-up.

    He also has some pretty decent normals. St.CD is quick as hell with good range, j.CD is good for air to airs, cr.C anti-airs, cr.D is cancellable and very long ranged, f+A is an anti-air launcher, f+B is a low, shit the list goes on.

    Spent some more time in practice mode with him today, trying to squeeze out better damage for the meter spent. He can get 404 damage with a single meter, 480 something with 1 meter 1 drive, and 850 damage HD off 4 meters midscreen. This is just sort of preliminary exploring of what he can do. I'm sure there's better HDs out there. For now the numbers aren't spectacular but they aren't weak either. I just wouldn't put him as an achor until I find something more efficient. He looks strong to me as a point character.
  • AirLancerAirLancer Just a touch of Honey Joined: Posts: 504 ✭✭✭
    Could you please elaborate on this tigerknee trick?

    Also, for some combos you could look at the Robert Garcia thread.
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  • Hyun SaiHyun Sai Joined: Posts: 360
    When doing the neomax in the air using B+C+D, Robert activates HD mode in the same time, so only 2 bars is spent (King can do the same, but her Neomax kinda sucks, so...).

    The tiger knee is just doing back+up after the motion to do it as soon as Robert leaves the ground.
  • cygnuscygnus going up Joined: Posts: 976
    Robert may have everything, but his version of most things are weak, and in real match situations hurt the character. His command grabs have startup and no invulnerability, so they lose to hitting buttons for defensive attack/throw os off say an empty jump setup or just someone reactionary hitting buttons in general, so delayed reactionary low B or something would beat his run up low B/ command throw mixup. They much commit to blocking which massively brings down the situations where the throws will work, and even the EX does not lead to great damage due to scaling. He has a command cross-up, but his jump is floaty, making it one of the easiest to guard in the game, and along with the command grab problems and no overhead, he could have problems hitting a player with good defense. His dive kicks have some tricks but they are in no way good enough to say 'he has a divekick'. He is not Yuri or Rufus haha.

    The best thing about him is his fireball and dp + b flying kick game, hands down. His fireball travels at the best possible height to zone in this game, and his dp is good. Neutral jump cd is good too. But that becomes a liability when many players choose Mr. Karate point. The same applies to other zoners, but I think all other zoning characters have better options up close than Robert does in this game. If you were to switch Robert to another position, you are now weakening your team so the point that you may as well remove him because you just aren't getting the most out of him being on point. The purpose of him on point is that you want to maximize the amount of time he lives, by zoning, building meter and keeping a lead to set up for the rest of the match. He is not the type of character to enter the trenches with the rest of the brawlers to be killed in a few hits + 1 HD combo.
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero Mai game play always has a reason behind it. You can forget about autopilot. Joined: Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭
    Updated personal tier list for KOFXIII

    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tr7942dx405lf7knaic9aikl4478ibalah78f75l7ec940ajf68x41izai5l428xah8xc4mbaiix44797ddxai79c379ainzaifnah5lc38vf55lai5lichbahc7f48x7dal7ch943fl42al41-bk8

    Changes:

    - EX Iori is in the S tier now... because, the player can resort to many play styles with the likes of Iori much like you could with 98... sort of. A very nice QCFx2+P which is a nice finisher for 1 stock combos and damaging! Beautiful to watch! Nice variety of HD combos and tools. The resident swiss army knife! Use with caution!

    - Robert is bumped up a tier. Why? Ask Air Lancer and cygnus for more information 8-) - a standard character through and through. (Despite seeing him almost every time I go online). Lots and lots of helpful command moves, too.

    - Elizabeth... Betty goes up one tier. She is very solid, does a lot of damage easily, two DM's for a good cause, several counter moves, quick meter building... and last but not the least, she possesses unique mobility.

    - Saiki goes back down because he suffers the same problem as Leona does: The majority of his special move aren't even safe at all. Also, Saiki needs to rely heavily on his zoning tools to be super effective.

    - Goro is in the A tier area now. He has several anti-air options, easy combos, and he is a very good grappling, much like Vice and Clark is. (Especially Clark 8-). I swear, there is something about Clark destroying people with his auto-guard throws in general that just makes me laugh... even if I'm the one suffering from it because the way he attacks is funny to me):rofl:.

    - Ash is bumped down a tier - Not that it means much... His normals are kind of stale, however.

    Nothing follows.

    ADDITIONAL NOTES:
    Again... if there are any problems please feel free to make corrections about the said characters (I got a feeling I should elaborate on Betty's, Leona's, and Goro's placement a bit more). Just so you guys know... Mature is on the brink of getting bumped up one tier too... her tools are really nice. But, she lacks command moves...! :(
    https://twitter.com/Great_Dark_Hero http://ask.fm/Great_Dark_Hero
    [KOFXIII]: MAI / Hwa / Takuma [Subs]: Terry, Beni, Iori, Leona
    [TTT2]: Armor King / Julia [Subs]: Michelle, Heihachi, Bruce
    [DOA5U]: Mila [Subs]: Pai, Helena, Nyotengu
    If you're learning about KOFXIII, please click on my FAQS here
    If you're learning how to play Mai Shiranui (or the Mai match up) on KOFXIII, start here

  • MadSnake1MadSnake1 Joined: Posts: 21
    ^^^^
    Mmmm...i have to say, really? on Terry's position, i definitely think he is a solid Mid Tier, there is no way he is that low, he has great normals and great Ex Moves, his chains and super moves are relatively easy to land, his air to air combat is not bad at all, has a terrific wake up move, sure, he has issues, like the fact that his HD combo and neo max is kind of bad but aside from that, i think he is a pretty solid character.
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero Mai game play always has a reason behind it. You can forget about autopilot. Joined: Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭
    ^^^^
    Mmmm...i have to say, really? on Terry's position, i definitely think he is a solid Mid Tier, there is no way he is that low, he has great normals and great Ex Moves, his chains and super moves are relatively easy to land, his air to air combat is not bad at all, has a terrific wake up move, sure, he has issues, like the fact that his HD combo and neo max is kind of bad but aside from that, i think he is a pretty solid character.
    Fixed... Terry is... pretty weird in this game...
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    [KOFXIII]: MAI / Hwa / Takuma [Subs]: Terry, Beni, Iori, Leona
    [TTT2]: Armor King / Julia [Subs]: Michelle, Heihachi, Bruce
    [DOA5U]: Mila [Subs]: Pai, Helena, Nyotengu
    If you're learning about KOFXIII, please click on my FAQS here
    If you're learning how to play Mai Shiranui (or the Mai match up) on KOFXIII, start here

  • MadSnake1MadSnake1 Joined: Posts: 21
    Fixed... Terry is... pretty weird in this game...

    I don't think he is that weird...in fact i think he is too basic and probably that's why he is underrated, i mean, people is probably always searching for the characters with the mixups or best hd combos and all and that's perfectly fine, however, when it comes to basics, Terry is the way to go (ok, to be fair, Ryo is the way to go and Ex Iori because you can play whatever style you want with him) but still, Terry has some great tools as well as some shortcomings...but as bad as Maxima? not a chance.

    Also, as a big Leona player...i don't think she is A tier, neither Athena, would like to share your views on them?
  • Hyun SaiHyun Sai Joined: Posts: 360
    The damage output of Terry is kinda crippled in the wiki because they start all the combos with St. C. Using St. D is much more efficient. There is no problem hitconfirming either because of the followind down forward C.

    HD combo with Terry is a bit tricky because you somewhat have to do something different depending on your position on screen. But with 2 bars he can score close to 800, and up to 900 with 3 bars. Ok, it's not Takuma, but it's doing the job.
  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686
    Terry's damage isn't great (unless it is those tricky HD combos mentioned above) and he is based around frame traps and not solid mixups. He has some nice cross up set ups but even if the ydo land the damage you get for the resources you spend isn't that fantastic. I don't think he is on the same level as say Maxima or Mai but he isn't one of the stronger characters in the game. Still, he is really annoying and can get you playing really stupid if you start hitting too many buttons against him when he forces you to block.

    I like Goro in A. He is great at rewarding guesses for very simple execution. Some very good buttons up close to frustrate people. I think he is a really good pocket character to have for tournaments for certain matchups and against people who may not have faced a decent one before. 3 bad guesses in a row and your gone... very demoralizing.

    Saiki still deserves to be S in my opinion. His zoning game is just so good, not enough people play him.

    Leona is pretty decent at controlling space, I am not quite positive to where exactly I would put her atm but somewhere around A-.

    Ralf is pretty meh... B+ish maybe A-. His buttons are a little overrated (still really good just not as extremely godlike as some people make them to be). Great damage for the little resources he has to use.... but hard to open up people sometime. I wish he could combo off his normal throw in the corner and make his st. C hit crouching characters.

    Chin should be a little higher. Nothing to do with cafe ID's opinion on him.... but Chin is pretty good.
    XBL: NissanZaxima
    Twitter: NissanZaxima18
  • MAGUNITOMAGUNITO Brokeback Lover Joined: Posts: 77
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trei5gfc3uf77odlfsg65gig7oabfscibuf7fseb9cdp3uhfbuj59bk2fsb39cigdiigfsfw9chi9cf6digufsgtdibzfsj2buavbue5bubu7pdjdi8nfslqfsbwdifsbudi7pco9cgu7oh03u-bk3-nabopper

    Bored at work so i made one as well ^^. Sections are S, A+, A, B, with the top row having a slight edge. it gets pretty hard after the obvious choises tho. Feels good to finally play a great 2d fighter with good balance.
  • Hyun SaiHyun Sai Joined: Posts: 360
    After some time spent in the practice mode, I came with this with Terry (starting with low chain lights, stand C or D, jumping. The standard starter for low chain lights is cr B, cr B, cr A, cr C) :

    1 bar : 300 to 370
    2 bars : 425 to 500

    50% Drive : 300 to 370
    50% Drive 1 bar : 385 to 450
    50% Drive 2 bars : 450 to 540

    That's for the non HD combo. For these, like I said, between 750 and 800 with 2 bars, and up to 900 with 3 bars.
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,058 ✭✭✭
    I question every tierlist that doesn't have Shen on the highest tier level.\

    And there's no way you can have Clark on the same level as Shen and Kim.

    Edit: Joe is actually pretty strong and I'm not sure why hardly anyone uses him except Hare Goro, who makes him look S tier.
    Cafe ID said they thought Billy was shit until Bala rocked them, so I'm not putting much stock in their "Robert is shit" analysis.

    I think it was only Lacid/kmg that said this, don't make up things.
    KoF97 - Chizuru/Yamazaki/Choi | KoF98 - Chizuru/Iori/Kyo/O.Chris | KoF2k2 - Kim/Whip/Athena/Choi |
    Kof13 - Duolon/Kim/Shen Woo | UMVC3 - Morrigan/Doom/Magneto | P4U - Shadow Labrys | SFxT - Lili/Xiaoyu |
    GGXXAC - DIZZY
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭
    "You are all just as bad as the people you hate. You're only interested in characters based on tears." - Since1717
    NO STREAM = DEAD GAME
    PSN: X_the_Genius | GGPO: Mr X | Skype: MisterEcks
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher The man you love to hate Joined: Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I question every tierlist that doesn't have Shen on the highest tier level.\

    And there's no way you can have Clark on the same level as Shen and Kim.

    Edit: Joe is actually pretty strong and I'm not sure why hardly anyone uses him except Hare Goro, who makes him look S tier.



    I think it was only Lacid/kmg that said this, don't make up things.

    Joe just isn't very good unless you know his TOD combo. That's all he's got going for him aside from good shoto-style zoning and a frame trap with his Fireball.

    Shen is not top tier. His damage is good and he's really easy to use. That's about it. He doesn't have the amazing air control or footsies that can shut you down in the corner like Kim. He doesn't get 800 damage with 1 drive and 2 bars like Hwa Jai. Etcetera. He's definitely good, but I'd put him in the lower end of the top tier spectrum.

    I'd actually place Clark at high mid-tier.
    STOMP!
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero Mai game play always has a reason behind it. You can forget about autopilot. Joined: Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭
    Updated tier list

    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tr7a2tam2taled5l6mc9ai8y2tdxednxai8xedal6mma2t79ahfm2th9ag5m2tdxai79c48xahkm2uha2talah5lc4klahflagixagm9aic9ed8xc479ed5lag5lee8x6m796liy2tdy2tca2t-bk8-naGDH

    Spoiler:
    https://twitter.com/Great_Dark_Hero http://ask.fm/Great_Dark_Hero
    [KOFXIII]: MAI / Hwa / Takuma [Subs]: Terry, Beni, Iori, Leona
    [TTT2]: Armor King / Julia [Subs]: Michelle, Heihachi, Bruce
    [DOA5U]: Mila [Subs]: Pai, Helena, Nyotengu
    If you're learning about KOFXIII, please click on my FAQS here
    If you're learning how to play Mai Shiranui (or the Mai match up) on KOFXIII, start here

  • YorKeYYorKeY P4AU- The first game where i actually wanna try everyone EVER Joined: Posts: 1,370 ✭✭✭
    ill Change the title to tier list discussion now, k guys. Lol
    XBL/PSN/Steam- iYorKeY
    USF4: Yun, C.Viper
    Melee: Marth/Sheik
    Where the connections are always green, SoCaL.

  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero Mai game play always has a reason behind it. You can forget about autopilot. Joined: Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭
    I'm looking back on this forum on all of those tier lists I made from mmcafe, including the ones made by everyone else... I now find them to be rather pointless, due to every character being viable. This game is more or less balanced... This is literally a game where it depends on the players ability to utilize the characters tool.
    https://twitter.com/Great_Dark_Hero http://ask.fm/Great_Dark_Hero
    [KOFXIII]: MAI / Hwa / Takuma [Subs]: Terry, Beni, Iori, Leona
    [TTT2]: Armor King / Julia [Subs]: Michelle, Heihachi, Bruce
    [DOA5U]: Mila [Subs]: Pai, Helena, Nyotengu
    If you're learning about KOFXIII, please click on my FAQS here
    If you're learning how to play Mai Shiranui (or the Mai match up) on KOFXIII, start here

  • LouiscipherLouiscipher The man you love to hate Joined: Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I still think Clark is Mid high or at the least Mid tier. And in this game Mid tier is pretty damn good.

    Robert's starting to make some traction which is interesting. I think it's because he has so many tools and while only one or two of them are actually good, he can mind fuck you with his options.
    STOMP!
  • josh99josh99 Joined: Posts: 73
    A KOF tier list would have to be out of S, A, and B. that's the only way.
  • YorKeYYorKeY P4AU- The first game where i actually wanna try everyone EVER Joined: Posts: 1,370 ✭✭✭
    ahhhhh i wish this game dident have a crappy netcode, i know 4 people that would of bought it too if werent for that.
    louis cipher really loves Clark. Lol
    XBL/PSN/Steam- iYorKeY
    USF4: Yun, C.Viper
    Melee: Marth/Sheik
    Where the connections are always green, SoCaL.

  • LouiscipherLouiscipher The man you love to hate Joined: Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My Clark love is totally no-homo.
    STOMP!
  • TNBTNB Bye. Joined: Posts: 1,180
    I see Mr. Karate as being very top-tier.

    EX Iori seems to have potential as well.

    Overall though there seem to be quite a good deal of powerful characters in this KOF.
    Skills and attitude prove worth as a player, not the internet.
  • josh99josh99 Joined: Posts: 73
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭✭
    This is how I feel about XIII right now. If you don't agree with this, I don't care.

    HGeCx.png
    You lack devotion! Enduring hunger and poverty is how you find the way!
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,058 ✭✭✭
    Shen on the same tier as Athena, Maxima and Robert? This tierlist needs to be wiped from existence.
    KoF97 - Chizuru/Yamazaki/Choi | KoF98 - Chizuru/Iori/Kyo/O.Chris | KoF2k2 - Kim/Whip/Athena/Choi |
    Kof13 - Duolon/Kim/Shen Woo | UMVC3 - Morrigan/Doom/Magneto | P4U - Shadow Labrys | SFxT - Lili/Xiaoyu |
    GGXXAC - DIZZY
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭✭
    Shen on the same tier as Athena, Maxima and Robert? This tierlist needs to be wiped from existence.
    Shen's tools are shit, without HD he's got garbage confirms from lows, his no meter options are terrible, if he didn't have Shen Woo damage in HD no one would play him besides character loyalists.
    You lack devotion! Enduring hunger and poverty is how you find the way!
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,058 ✭✭✭
    He does big damage without HD but needs meter (there aren't many characters that can do good damage with no meter) and he can confirm anything from a low, just requires a link that isn't so hard to perform anyway. He has all the tools except possibly a really good crossup.
    KoF97 - Chizuru/Yamazaki/Choi | KoF98 - Chizuru/Iori/Kyo/O.Chris | KoF2k2 - Kim/Whip/Athena/Choi |
    Kof13 - Duolon/Kim/Shen Woo | UMVC3 - Morrigan/Doom/Magneto | P4U - Shadow Labrys | SFxT - Lili/Xiaoyu |
    GGXXAC - DIZZY
  • cygnuscygnus going up Joined: Posts: 976
    hey was bored heres one i just made. i dont think its so important to make a complicated tier list for this game...in a lot of situations you can take a lot of damage for small mistakes and anyone can win from that type of thing, so the nuances of the match ups in some ways dont hinder characters the way they might in a lower damage game. the way i think of it is

    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tri680cd80ddbf94eji1ele880jyiyegivavekjy80h2bdjqelh5ghi5ixiube9ubccniu81bbklbffagfj0gjdfggkwghbjgglhem9ngdmebfg9emgaiwasitcmeoeeenf7bdblbcaj80gc81-bk8-nafart

    S - no weaknesses, even if the character lacks something, it doesnt matter much, or their other tools are enough to significantly outweigh the disadvantages
    A - strong characters, but maybe have some hard matches or drawbacks
    B - characters that are strong in one way or another, but have some clear weaknesses
    C - characters that lack things they need to be in a higher tier, or have weak versions of things they should have

    i think kensou and maxima are maybe exceptions, enough to be ranked higher

    also shen can do cr.b cr.b st.a into level 2 for not so bad damage and its easy...especially for a character that 'doesnt do damage easily from a low'
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,058 ✭✭✭
    I agree with most of it except I think Kula should be one level higher and King should be two levels higher (why is she so low in your list???). Also maybe Mature can go up one level...or half.
    KoF97 - Chizuru/Yamazaki/Choi | KoF98 - Chizuru/Iori/Kyo/O.Chris | KoF2k2 - Kim/Whip/Athena/Choi |
    Kof13 - Duolon/Kim/Shen Woo | UMVC3 - Morrigan/Doom/Magneto | P4U - Shadow Labrys | SFxT - Lili/Xiaoyu |
    GGXXAC - DIZZY
  • cygnuscygnus going up Joined: Posts: 976
    you think king is among the best? i had her one higher and decided to lower her. shes a proven tournament character so i guess that should do something for her, but so is billy (oh btw, the double row shes in is supposed to be all the same rank). her d and space control is good but she lacks damage and strong anti airs. both solved by meter, but she is not fitting of anything but a battery. its the same issue as billy or robert; they are strong space control/momentum characters with weak damage. they are better with meter, but so is everyone else, and once you get past that 1st character slot, it becomes more and more disadvantageous to pick characters like that.

    kula i think could do up a rank if her dp or cr.C was better, or had a better jump CD, faster qcf+A, safer qcb+B...basically something to make it more difficult or riskier to disrespect this character. i feel like once you get above st.b height, she doesnt have anything truly threatening, or something she can use regularly as a part of her offense to keep you from going nuts. you can eat a lot of j.b and walk it off, and she has to mix up her strings a lot to keep people in check. i see her as a character with a similar play style to ex kyo, but i feel he does it much better. edit - actually i thought i had put kula in not the lowet tier, guess i was feeling hateful at the time hah. maybe 5 tiers would express the balance better.
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    you think king is among the best? i had her one higher and decided to lower her. shes a proven tournament character so i guess that should do something for her, but so is billy (oh btw, the double row shes in is supposed to be all the same rank). her d and space control is good but she lacks damage and strong anti airs. both solved by meter, but she is not fitting of anything but a battery. its the same issue as billy or robert; they are strong space control/momentum characters with weak damage. they are better with meter, but so is everyone else, and once you get past that 1st character slot, it becomes more and more disadvantageous to pick characters like that.

    kula i think could do up a rank if her dp or cr.C was better, or had a better jump CD, faster qcf+A, safer qcb+B...basically something to make it more difficult or riskier to disrespect this character. i feel like once you get above st.b height, she doesnt have anything truly threatening, or something she can use regularly as a part of her offense to keep you from going nuts. you can eat a lot of j.b and walk it off, and she has to mix up her strings a lot to keep people in check. i see her as a character with a similar play style to ex kyo, but i feel he does it much better. edit - actually i thought i had put kula in not the lowet tier, guess i was feeling hateful at the time hah. maybe 5 tiers would express the balance better.

    Robert and Billy have weak damage? This is news to me, but maybe we have different standards as to what constitutes "good" damage. I agree with you as far as King's damage goes, but using her as a battery is possibly one of the worst ways to utilize her given her potential with meter. She's generally best used as mid/anchor.


    I have a question. Everyone seems to rank Athena near the bottom, but to me she seems like one of those "swiss army knife" type characters that has a ton of tools and an answer for almost any situation. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but given this, why does she seem to end up near the bottom so often?
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • cygnuscygnus going up Joined: Posts: 976
    shes underrated for sure, or at least underused. she does a lot off an invincible grab, has good normals and can get away well. her weaknesses...her dp has a blind spot, making it hard to anti air at certain angles, so you have to move around a lot and use close D. her jump is floaty, so while her jump cd is very nice for air to air, she doesnt have a low jump pressure game to pair with her grab. i think the character has a lot of potential but no top players seem to like her.

    as for king, it seems wasteful to put a character who's main strength is zoning and poking 2nd or 3rd. she has to use her meter for anti-air ex trap shot or upkicks super, spending drives and bar for standard damage, vs the more popular 2nds and 3rds who can do half life with just a meter or two, sometimes without drive, or even come close to straight up killing with hd from 1 mistake. some of those same characters have strong meterless anti airs. you can see any hilevel tournament players always put her on point, i dont think anyone plays her 2nd or 3rd except for madkof but that dude is a little crazy lol
  • AirLancerAirLancer Just a touch of Honey Joined: Posts: 504 ✭✭✭
    So then, what exactly constitutes "good" damage?
    KOF XIII: Kula/Iori/Kim
    SteamID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/WFF-AirLancer
    If you're in the NYC area and want to play some KOF XIII, hit me up!
  • cygnuscygnus going up Joined: Posts: 976
    350 for 1 stock, 400-450 for 1 stock+1 drive, 500+ for 2 stocks + 1 drive, 750 for hd + 2 stocks, 850 for hd + 3 stocks, a bit less if started from a cr.B is my rule of thumb. a big key is being able to do significant damage without using drive and saving for hd, something that is very common for the stronger characters
  • AirLancerAirLancer Just a touch of Honey Joined: Posts: 504 ✭✭✭
    Robert meets or exceeds all of those.

    1 meter:
    • cl.C, f.B, f.A [db]~f+BD, dp+C does around 340-50 Damage (does 390~ w/ jump-in)
    1+1:
    • (~30-45% screen from corner) cl.C f.B f.A dp+A (DC) qcf+P, db~f+BD, (optional) qcf+A, dp+C (461 / 425 dmg)
    • (in or near corner) cl.C f.B f.A dp+C (DC) qcb+BD, qcf+P, dp+C (436 dmg)
    • (midscreen) cl.C f.B f.A dp+C (DC) qcb+BD, db~f+D (400 dmg)
    2+1:
    • cl.C f.B dp+C (DC) qcb+D, qcf,hcb+AC (530+ dmg)
    • (corner) cl.C, f.B, dp+C (DC) qcb+BD, [db]~f+BD, qcf+A, dp+C (525 dmg)
    2+HD:
    • (midscreen) cl.C f.B (HD) cl.C f.B dp+C(2) (DC) qcb+D, dp+A (DC) qcf+A, db~f+D (DC) qcb+K, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, DP+C (DC) qcf,hcb+BD (814 dmg)
    • (corner) cl.C, f.B HD cl.C, f.B dp+C(2) (DC) qcb+D, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC) qcb+K, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC),qcb+K, dp+A (delay) qcfhcb+BD, fbf+K (840 dmg)
    3+HD
    • (midscreen) cl.C f.B (HD) cl.C f.B dp+C(2) (DC) qcb+D, dp+A (DC) qcf+A, [db]~f+D (DC) qcb+D, dp+C (DC) fbf+BD (DC) qcfhcb+BD (878 dmg)
    • (corner) cl.C, f.B HD cl.C, f.B dp+C(2) (DC) qcb+D, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC) qcb+K, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC) qcb+K, dp+A (delay) qcfhcb+BD, qcf+A, fbf+BD, dp+A (899 dmg)
    And for shiggles...

    4+HD
    • (corner) cl.C, f.B HD cl.C, f.B dp+C(2) (DC) qcb+D, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC) qcb+K, dp+C (DC) qcf+C, dp+A (DC), qcb+K, dp+A (delay) qcfhcb+BD, qcf+A, qcfhcb+AC (970+ dmg)
    KOF XIII: Kula/Iori/Kim
    SteamID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/WFF-AirLancer
    If you're in the NYC area and want to play some KOF XIII, hit me up!
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