KoF13 Tier List Discussion

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  • cygnuscygnus going up Joined: Posts: 976
    haha i guess numbers dont lie. i guess i just think of him that way, as a character that tends to not do damage. i.e., they have a weak mixup game in this case. for example, i consider mature a 'weak damage' character even though she does like 400+ with 1 drive 1 super...the damage is there, but getting it is another story. robert is a really weird case since all the tools are there...hes got a good cross up, a command grab, etc. it all comes down to 'how are you going to hit the other guy'. in this case, robert's cross up is slow because of his jump arc. his command grab, even ex has start up, small range, and no invincibility. you can look at any of the characters above him and see that most of them just have better offensive options.

    btw that 1 meter combo wont work on crouchers and those midscreen hd combos dont work from just anywhere, its very possible to not reach the corner by the time you do the charge b,f+d to divekick which lowers the damage a lot. theres also a spot in the middle of the stage where you will reach the corner too early, but be too far to do the corner combo and you have to change it there too, a lot of liabilities for doing his hd midscreen. this has reminded me how fun his combos are though, i might use him more in the future
  • AirLancerAirLancer Just a touch of Honey Joined: Posts: 504 ✭✭✭
    btw that 1 meter combo wont work on crouchers and those midscreen hd combos dont work from just anywhere, its very possible to not reach the corner by the time you do the charge b,f+d to divekick which lowers the damage a lot. theres also a spot in the middle of the stage where you will reach the corner too early, but be too far to do the corner combo and you have to change it there too, a lot of liabilities for doing his hd midscreen. this has reminded me how fun his combos are though, i might use him more in the future

    I'm well aware of these things. I just wanted to correct the notion that Robert can't do damage when he lands a hit. With good awareness of where you are on the stage, and by choosing the optimum combo, Robert does a truckload of damage. After getting used to him, I've never once dropped an HD because I chose the wrong combo for my location. It's true, he doesn't have that kind of ridiculous pressure that characters like Kyo or Iori can bring, but he's a veritable wall if he manages to corner you. His really good j.CD and j.D, unhoppable fireball, good DP, command grab that leads to safejump, and ability to move around very quickly and easily by using the backdash + crossup all make it really tough to escape from the corner when he has you there. Hitting people with supercancel ranbu on-reaction when they roll a fireball feels real good too, haha... Mid-screen he can dance around a lot of characters with his souped up backdash, getting in a lot of free fireball hits if they should hop in and misjudge the range which can potentially lead into [db]~f+K followup, or dp if they jump expecting the fireball. On j.CD counter-hits he can follow up with a full HD combo utilizing bypassed j.qcb+BD, or just get em with bypassed NeoMAX.
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  • YorKeYYorKeY Road to 5K Dota 2 MMR, so close, yet so far away. Joined: Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭
    Haven't played in so long, forgot how godlike this game was. A friend came over wanting to play umvc3 and then saw that I had KoF13 "and said he was good at 98 and never played XIII." So we played with one rule " I couldn't use drive cancel combos cause he never learned them." He had solid fundamentals and it became obvious he wasn't lying when he said he was good at 98. Lol
    Good matches... best one was the last one with the double k.o.. ahh yes, time to start hitting the training mode again, missed this game.
    Ps: K' team theme is hype...
    Elizabeth, Yuri, Kyo or Ex Iori is da team<3
    XBL/PSN/Steam- iYorKeY
    USF4: Yun, C.Viper
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  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    Hey guys, I'm getting back into this game and trying to get a better handle on the cast. How would you rate these characters?

    B: Duolon, Chin, Andy, Kensou, Mature, Ralf, Clark, K', Daimon, Robert, Billy, Ash
    C: Joe, Leona, Terry, Athena, Maxima, Mai, Ryo, Raiden, Liz, Kula

    The top 14 characters I have a pretty good feel for, but these I don't. Feel free to break these 22 characters into sub-tiers or whatever, I'd just like to hear some opinions of how to assess these characters.
    "Street Fighter 4 ruins everything" - Steve H.
    CVS2: Grown Man Street Fighting
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    edited May 2013
    Here is david kong's tier list from dreamcancel:

    http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=m9kbdtfa6kcfaqlbaeqqj4lgg6&topic=1908.375
    AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
    A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
    A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
    A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
    B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai

    It's a good list to discuss IMO. My thoughts, based on my (very) limited knowledge:

    - I generally agree with the top tier. Hwa and Beni aren't quite as prevalent among tournament-winning teams as Mr. K and EX Iori, but I'm ok with them being where they are.

    - I do disagree, however, with King, Yuri, and Takuma in mid-high tier. In short, I don't think Yuri and Takuma are as good as the other members of this tier in the neutral game, and King simply does not have the damage-dealing ability of characters like claw, the Kyos, Chin, and Shen.

    - Mid-tier and below I have some disagreements with, but also concede that these characters are less known than characters in the top and high tiers. Here's a summary:

    rated too low: Vice (can land her HD off of more situations than any character in the game, pretty good neutral), Elizabeth (too well-rounded to be in bottom tier)

    rated too high: Andy (has a lot of gimmicks, but is basically a zoner, and he's not nearly as good as Saiki at that game)
    Post edited by Mr. Warzard on
    "Street Fighter 4 ruins everything" - Steve H.
    CVS2: Grown Man Street Fighting
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    - I do disagree, however, with King, Yuri, and Takuma in mid-high tier. In short, I don't think Yuri and Takuma are as good as the other members of this tier in the neutral game, and King simply does not have the damage-dealing ability of characters like claw, the Kyos, Chin, and Shen.

    I know this post is a little old, but just had to make a comment. Takuma IMO is a character who can be one of the biggest threats on a team. He is one of the few characters who scares the living crap out of me when I play against him because a single mess up will most likely cost my character.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    Comments are appreciated. Could you elaborate a bit? At a very high level, at least?

    I know what kind of damage Takuma is capable of, but his lack of defensive tools means he has to constantly be on the offensive to inflict his damage. Do you think he's that hard to keep out?
    "Street Fighter 4 ruins everything" - Steve H.
    CVS2: Grown Man Street Fighting
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • joeyjeremiahjoeyjeremiah Joey Jeremiah, Esq., at your service. Joined: Posts: 51
    Comments are appreciated. Could you elaborate a bit? At a very high level, at least?

    I know what kind of damage Takuma is capable of, but his lack of defensive tools means he has to constantly be on the offensive to inflict his damage. Do you think he's that hard to keep out?

    Takuma can kill with 1 meter 1 drive -

    He doesn't have to spend the same kinds of resources as others to deliver damage. He can kill a character from full on the first round off a frametrap. His defense sucks relative to some characters, but his offense is straight up insane. Not only is he hard to keep out, he can play the ranged game just fine with fireballs and has invincible startup DMs to deal with jumpins and other things. His hop is low as shit, his air CD activates 2 frames faster than Karate's making it arguably the best air CD in the game and he has a comboable command grab. The character is a beast. Karate's way better defensively and maybe better rounded, but Takuma at a certain level of play/mastery is unmatched for damage.
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    Comments are appreciated. Could you elaborate a bit? At a very high level, at least?

    I know what kind of damage Takuma is capable of, but his lack of defensive tools means he has to constantly be on the offensive to inflict his damage.

    He lacks wake up tools, but defense no. He can slow down most common pressure. Stupid jumps can be supered, he still has a great jump CD, etc. You aren't going to just go ham on a Takuma.

    No character in this game has a horrible defense to the point where they can't do anything.
    Do you think he's that hard to keep out?

    The problem is he is hard enough to keep out that he can still gain hits and he only needs one solid hit to destroy a character. For how little meter he needs he can basically run through characters if he gets momentum. He scares me more than characters like Claw Iori, Hwa, etc because of how fast he can build back the critical meter needs to run through the next character.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    I guess I should've qualified what I said with "relative to the other characters in mid-high tier." Here's who I agree with David Kong is in the mid-high tier:

    A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, Chin, Shen Woo

    (I would add Vice to this tier.)

    I respect Takuma, but don't rank him as high as these six characters. Yet.
    He doesn't have to spend the same kinds of resources as others to deliver damage....Not only is he hard to keep out, he can play the ranged game just fine with fireballs and has invincible startup DMs to deal with jumpins and other things.

    Does Takuma's efficiency in doing damage make up for the fact that it's harder for him to score hits compared to the other characters in this tier? I think Claw, the Kyos, and Shen are just so much better at getting big damage, from their defense as well as their offense. Their pressure is just as good, if not scarier than Takuma's, so I just can't see how his better efficiency overcomes that. Correct me if you think otherwise.

    Takuma is closer to Chin and Vice, for sure, because, like Takuma, both Chin and Vice have sizeable holes in their games. Whether you tier them the same or differently depends on how highly you think of their respective strengths. I'd be curious to hear if you think Takuma is better, worse, or the same as those two. I currently peg him just behind, because both Chin and Vice can convert damage off of a much wider range of circumstances (from all over the screen) than Takuma, despite the fact that they aren't as efficient at it (and their pressure isn't as good).

    about Takuma's ranged game: His fireball is ok, but it's hard for him to use it to gain a significant advantage. Isn't his only invincible DM the slow, 11-frame start-up C ranbu? That's a good move against normal/high jumps, but it seems hard to consistently use to deter people from hopping in on Takuma. He can use j.CD, but that leaves him open to quick anti-airs, and trip-guard punishes when he lands.

    LoyalSol wrote: »
    He lacks wake up tools, but defense no. He can slow down most common pressure. Stupid jumps can be supered, he still has a great jump CD, etc. You aren't going to just go ham on a Takuma.

    No character in this game has a horrible defense to the point where they can't do anything.

    My point wasn't that he was totally defenseless. I was just saying that he is forced to go offensive more than the other mid-high tier characters, because a defensive Takuma is probably a dead Takuma. Pretty much every other character in that tier has enough neutral game tools (offensive and defensive) where they aren't under as much pressure to always go in.
    "Street Fighter 4 ruins everything" - Steve H.
    CVS2: Grown Man Street Fighting
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • joeyjeremiahjoeyjeremiah Joey Jeremiah, Esq., at your service. Joined: Posts: 51
    Does Takuma's efficiency in doing damage make up for the fact that it's harder for him to score hits compared to the other characters in this tier? I think Claw, the Kyos, and Shen are just so much better at getting big damage, from their defense as well as their offense. Their pressure is just as good, if not scarier than Takuma's, so I just can't see how his better efficiency overcomes that. Correct me if you think otherwise.

    Takuma doesn't really lack anything to stop him from opening people up. Like I said, his hop is very low so it's less reactable than many characters. He can crossup with his air D and B fairly easily. He has hard knockdowns on his Ranbu and normal throw to set up oki, not to mention the best air CD in the game that on counterhit is practically gg. Command grab is comboable into near kills. His damage dealing is far superior to Claw, Kyo or Shen for the meter spent, but it's more difficult execution-wise.

    Regular Ranbu will beat the invicibility of EX Maiden Masher when performed at the same time (wtf?). It's pretty a pretty godly answer to his defense holes even if it does cost a meter. To be honest, I'm glad he has to rely on meter for defense because God knows I don't want him to have any for touch-of-deaths. That's solved by placing him second or third.
    Takuma is closer to Chin and Vice, for sure, because, like Takuma, both Chin and Vice have sizeable holes in their games. Whether you tier them the same or differently depends on how highly you think of their respective strengths. I'd be curious to hear if you think Takuma is better, worse, or the same as those two. I currently peg him just behind, because both Chin and Vice can convert damage off of a much wider range of circumstances (from all over the screen) than Takuma, despite the fact that they aren't as efficient at it (and their pressure isn't as good).

    about Takuma's ranged game: His fireball is ok, but it's hard for him to use it to gain a significant advantage. Isn't his only invincible DM the slow, 11-frame start-up C ranbu? That's a good move against normal/high jumps, but it seems hard to consistently use to deter people from hopping in on Takuma. He can use j.CD, but that leaves him open to quick anti-airs, and trip-guard punishes when he lands.

    I'm of the camp that there's very few characters that suck. Some have less oki, mixup, defense, etc. than others, but every character has enough to work with to be beast in the right hands. Vice and Chin are excellent characters, but I still think Takuma is better. Vice can convert more due to the anywhere juggle on her EX sleeve, Chin has all sorts of mixup, parries and invincibility, but neither of those two can kill you for free. That's what Takuma does, he kills you for practically free if he touches you. All characters have to spend in excess of 2-3 meters + full drive to kill you, Takuma doesn't. That's more meter for the characters after him to work with, or conversely it's more meter for the character preceding him which is a problem.

    I mentioned he needs meter for defense, but so do a lot of characters (Claw, Vice), but those characters can't kill you without 3 meters and full drive. If they touch you with 1 meter 1 drive you might lose 500 hp but you won't be dead. Takuma touches you and it's gg.

    C Ranbu is slower but if you want to stop hops you should be using stand A.
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero "No Mai, No Buy" (Says the idiot non-Mai player) Joined: Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭
    https://twitter.com/Great_Dark_Hero http://ask.fm/Great_Dark_Hero
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    [DOA5U]: Mila [Subs]: Pai, Helena, Nyotengu
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  • AirLancerAirLancer Just a touch of Honey Joined: Posts: 504 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Mature at the top? How come?
    Post edited by AirLancer on
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero "No Mai, No Buy" (Says the idiot non-Mai player) Joined: Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    AirLancer wrote: »
    Mature at the top? How come?
    She seems to play very well in many team positions. Her mix ups and frame traps (DP+P series) can be quite devastating - frame trap with DP+P, and the Punch follow up while towards the ground and then get the st.C after the fact to maintain pressure... st.C is one of Mature faster normal moves. Both of her DM's are useful as well... Her ability to produce a lot of chip damage for defeating an opponent seems pretty potent as well. Mature can also a lot of roles on a team (then again, every character can do this depending on what applications the player might have).
    http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php/Mature_(XIII)

    (I might be overstating her abilities however - This might have something to do with her being strangely popular around where I live when I ranbats take place. Also, players such as JuiceboxKing solidified their own game play with them and even made a basic character tutorial on her so that others can get a good grasp on the said character -
    Spoiler:
    Mature would probably be in line within the S tier instead with Shen and the others - Her HD combos for 2 bar or less are not particularly easy to perform, plus she would have to worry about damaging scaling, and she does not have any command normal move to speak of).

    EDIT: This should be a little more sensible: http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html?tc=ya0-tr5l6x5l2t6e6x5map6iap796x79ao8bao99ap6g2t7d2ta3ap872tb0ap942tbvaqckap876x966xa16xdbape2apewaofoangianhaanhzanaw6xiranjlankhanbx6xcu6x9z2tas2tbq2t-bk8-naGreat_Dark_Hero
    Post edited by Great_Dark_Hero on
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher The man you love to hate Joined: Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Top tiers:

    Mr. Karate (zero bad matchups, annoying fucking fireball, gdlk jCD, easy confirm into super for 400dmg, has an answer to everything and cannot be zoned), Beni, Chin, EX Kyo, Takuma, Yuri, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Iori.

    Everyone else.
    Post edited by Louiscipher on
    STOMP!
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    While I'm not the most knowledgeable about the game, there are more than just two tiers in KOF XIII. To say that Shen, Kyo and Vice are no better than the likes of Terry, Maxima, and Kensou is wrong.
    "Street Fighter 4 ruins everything" - Steve H.
    CVS2: Grown Man Street Fighting
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher The man you love to hate Joined: Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I give you Vice and Shen but everyone else can basically do the same damage with HD mode and 2 bars. Everyone gets better with EX. It's all matchup specific after Iori in the tier list.

    The top tiers I mentioned because they can either do everything or just have massive damage at their disposal with very little use of meter and have no bad matchups.
    STOMP!
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    It's not all about damage, it's about tools and ability to land that damage. And not only that, if a character like Kyo can do 35-40% damage without using any meter, that's a significant advantage over the rest of the cast (damage efficiency/meter matters). It is wrong to say that just because everybody does hella damage when they have a lot of meter/HD, they are equally good.

    I think you do have a point, in that for about 20 characters, we don't really know yet how good they are compared to the rest of the cast. Even that is slowly being teased out though. For example, we now know that King, Ryo, Saiki, and Duo Lon are clearly not top tier characters, but they belong in a different tier than Terry, Mai, Kensou, Ash, etc.

    Even among your top tier characters, it's inaccurate to say they are all equally good, and it's especially incorrect to say that they have no bad matchups. I would not equate, for example, Iori (claw), who can be zoned and is meter-hungry, to someone like Kim or Karate, who are much less meter dependent and have far more oppressive neutral games. EDIT: Holy shit, I just realized you excluded Kim from top tier. That's worse than saying Shen is equal to Terry.

    We went back and forth on Takuma earlier, and I'm definitely open to including him in high tier, but not top.
    "Street Fighter 4 ruins everything" - Steve H.
    CVS2: Grown Man Street Fighting
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    edited August 2013
    It's not all about damage, it's about tools and ability to land that damage. And not only that, if a character like Kyo can do 35-40% damage without using any meter, that's a significant advantage over the rest of the cast (damage efficiency/meter matters). It is wrong to say that just because everybody does hella damage when they have a lot of meter/HD, they are equally good.

    I think you do have a point, in that for about 20 characters, we don't really know yet how good they are compared to the rest of the cast. Even that is slowly being teased out though. For example, we now know that King, Ryo, Saiki, and Duo Lon are clearly not top tier characters, but they belong in a different tier than Terry, Mai, Kensou, Ash, etc.

    Even among your top tier characters, it's inaccurate to say they are all equally good, and it's especially incorrect to say that they have no bad matchups. I would not equate, for example, Iori (claw), who can be zoned and is meter-hungry, to someone like Kim or Karate, who are much less meter dependent and have far more oppressive neutral games. EDIT: Holy shit, I just realized you excluded Kim from top tier. That's worse than saying Shen is equal to Terry.

    We went back and forth on Takuma earlier, and I'm definitely open to including him in high tier, but not top.

    It's not just about ability to land that damage, but also ability to prevent other characters from landing that damage. I think good defensive abilities are greatly underrated in this game.

    Controling space is something I feel many mid-tier players overlook. For instance, sure King isn't going to open you up fast, but at the same time you aren't going to open her up fast. If she is sitting on meter she has a constant "No Fly Zone". Leona is also really obnoxious to get a hit on.

    IMO a better tier list than the usual tier list would be rating a character according to position on the team. Because some characters are more sensitive to team position than others, but it doesn't make them worse than the other characters.
    Does Takuma's efficiency in doing damage make up for the fact that it's harder for him to score hits compared to the other characters in this tier? I think Claw, the Kyos, and Shen are just so much better at getting big damage, from their defense as well as their offense. Their pressure is just as good, if not scarier than Takuma's, so I just can't see how his better efficiency overcomes that. Correct me if you think otherwise.

    Takuma doesn't really have an issue opening people up. That's the thing. He has a good command grab, a good anywhere juggle to go with that j.CD, and a decent enough frame trap game to get you scared of hitting buttons. If you get cornered against Takuma any hit is going to result in some large damage.

    I've played more than my share of legit Takuma's including players like Renald. The character is a nightmare to defend against. Characters like Claw Iori I can usually take a hit or two unless Claw has a full HD and 3 bars, but Takuma can be sitting at part of a bar and some drive and make me fearful of getting hit.

    There are literally 2 or 3 characters that any time they are out on the screen make me sweat. Takuma, Claw Iori, and Hwa

    I wouldn't put regular Kyo above Takuma any day if we were doing a standard tier list.
    Post edited by LoyalSol on
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    Here's how I would go about making a tier list.

    By Point Character:
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html?tc=ya0-trjh8gb174hs8mg1727s4whsbeg08lb28ocq8n9f749e8ml94zhz4zmm6zcy4ymy50b6b8g8bfjdbd6e4x9jb7eb729i4wcub9ec8ml270epbe7v72b94who70jc6yjm50cm75gb4y6674em4x-bk8-naLoyalSol

    By Second Character:
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html?tc=ya0-tr5n40mz42kh8wcc918q42e07i7p8zm08vns79li42go42h47dis7bfh8xa95i8o5aiv8wab41657f7s7jju42678vkg79dz8y7742h28ti7429b91aw8uon41m47dcd7gf244nr8pdf43bv44-bk8

    By Anchor Character:
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html?tc=ya0-trgb8gc15nmm8pjpapaf8f7b378laoa6anl48mgm328u5mbpapgj5jez5j8u388q8hetaoi533ae37gjaobx36dc8gbu8gdj5j748gjn8qf035d8asi3ammjapkzau72apet8hi08hdh34ag5o-bk8


    I personally feel the #2 slot is the most homogenized out of the three positions. You can put just about any character there and they work. It is more based on match ups. I feel the spots where characters run into the most trouble are either on point or anchor. On point you need to be able to do a lot with a little and some characters really need to have a decent amount of meter stocked to bring them to full strength. Also on point a lot of character flaws are harder to exploit because of the lack of resources so characters like Clark for instance can get away with more than they would expect to later on in the order.

    On anchor you either need to be able to do huge quantities of damage fast or you need to be able to slow down the common anchors. In my tier I put the characters most likely to come back on you in the top level as these are the characters who can produce large amounts of sustained damage fast to perform a reverse OCV. The second level is more characters that are great for close games when it comes down to anchor vs anchor. They either have good ways to get hits and end rounds quick or have obnoxious tools that get better as each character gets less health.

    Even on the list I show I think in most of those cases you can still make even the ones I rate lower work. IMO no character is completely worthless.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • GaijinblazeGaijinblaze fingerlicans Joined: Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2013
    maxima as a top tier point is something i've never heard of. without the threats of ex dp+k, ex vapour cannon combos or the ability to drive cancel his grab into bigger damage, he is hard to make good use of. to make matters worse, he would match up unfavourably against other common points like king, duo lon, and billy. even though he matches up (really) poorly against other anchors too, at least meter allows the player enough options to fill in his gaps. i'm not aware of any players who have used maxima as a point character.

    but truth be told i've probably been using him wrong this whole time anyway so yeah
    Post edited by Gaijinblaze on
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  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    LoyalSol wrote: »
    It's not just about ability to land that damage, but also ability to prevent other characters from landing that damage. I think good defensive abilities are greatly underrated in this game.

    Controling space is something I feel many mid-tier players overlook. For instance, sure King isn't going to open you up fast, but at the same time you aren't going to open her up fast. If she is sitting on meter she has a constant "No Fly Zone". Leona is also really obnoxious to get a hit on.

    IMO a better tier list than the usual tier list would be rating a character according to position on the team. Because some characters are more sensitive to team position than others, but it doesn't make them worse than the other characters.

    I agree! It's not easy to control space in XIII, so the characters that can do so well should be rated higher. This is actually the crux of my doubts about Takuma, whose space control is considerably worse than claw, the kyos, vice, and Shen.

    Your tier lists based on position are useful for sure, although an overall tier list has its merits too. I've got a lot of questions about the ones you posted, but they're good to have for discussion.
    LoyalSol wrote: »
    Takuma doesn't really have an issue opening people up. That's the thing. He has a good command grab, a good anywhere juggle to go with that j.CD, and a decent enough frame trap game to get you scared of hitting buttons. If you get cornered against Takuma any hit is going to result in some large damage.

    I wouldn't put regular Kyo above Takuma any day if we were doing a standard tier list.

    A few questions;

    - I thought you could only juggle zanretsuken in the corner, meaning it's not a true "anywhere juggle." Can he juggle midscreen?

    - what's good about his frametrap game? With those stubby normals, seems to me that his frametrap ability is average at best.

    - like I said above, you've talked me into seeing how they could both be high-mid.
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  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    edited August 2013
    A few questions;

    - I thought you could only juggle zanretsuken in the corner, meaning it's not a true "anywhere juggle." Can he juggle midscreen?

    - what's good about his frametrap game? With those stubby normals, seems to me that his frametrap ability is average at best.

    Anywhere juggle is just a generic term for "juggles off of anything" He has situational mid screen juggles, but the other thing is he can also carry to the corner pretty well if he gets a counter hit CD (not uncommon I might add). Even if it is just CD > CD to get to the corner and quickly get the EX.

    His normals are only a problem in the neutral game, when Takuma is inside his normals are just as good as you need. c.LK has good range for a c.LK, low jump arc makes AAing hard to do, and a good command grab prevents you from simply blocking all the time.

    It's one of those things till you have really played a high level Takuma, the character doesn't seem all that difficult to fight against, but when you are playing against a great one the character is a freaking nightmare! He can run through entire teams if you let him get momentum. He is a character who has one of the highest comeback potentials which is why I rate him highly.
    Post edited by LoyalSol on
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  • YorKeYYorKeY Road to 5K Dota 2 MMR, so close, yet so far away. Joined: Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭
    edited February 14
    What is your guy's opinion on the top 10 best characters in the game as of 2014? Has the game been almost pretty much figured out
    by now? Been awhile since i played (quarter 2 2013) and wanted to know if it has moved around by now.
    Post edited by YorKeY on
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  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    YorKeY wrote: »
    What is your guy's opinion on the top 10 best characters in the game as of 2014? Has the game been almost pretty much figured out
    by now? Been awhile since i played (quarter 2 2013) and wanted to know if it has moved around by now.

    Top 10 is a little hard. Mr. K is the only character people agree is a unanimous #1. Outside of that you can argue Kim, EX Iori, and maybe Hwa or EX Kyo. Once you get past there the cast sort of homogenizes.
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  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭✭
    Beni should probably belong on that list?
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  • YorKeYYorKeY Road to 5K Dota 2 MMR, so close, yet so far away. Joined: Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭
    Komatik wrote: »
    Beni should probably belong on that list?

    That team you play damn.... tier... wh...... XD

    benimaru and karate look like shit i can understand kim cause he's bad ass... sorry i was being too direct. XD
    but yes i believe beni is top tier...
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  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    Komatik wrote: »
    Beni should probably belong on that list?

    Oh yea Beni too. But outside of the top 5-6 the list gets crowded.
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  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15
    YorKeY wrote: »
    Komatik wrote: »
    Beni should probably belong on that list?

    That team you play damn.... tier... wh...... XD

    Guilty as charged :P
    LoyalSol wrote: »
    YorKeY wrote: »
    What is your guy's opinion on the top 10 best characters in the game as of 2014? Has the game been almost pretty much figured out
    by now? Been awhile since i played (quarter 2 2013) and wanted to know if it has moved around by now.

    Top 10 is a little hard. Mr. K is the only character people agree is a unanimous #1. Outside of that you can argue Kim, EX Iori, and maybe Hwa or EX Kyo. Once you get past there the cast sort of homogenizes.
    LoyalSol wrote: »
    Komatik wrote: »
    Beni should probably belong on that list?

    Oh yea Beni too. But outside of the top 5-6 the list gets crowded.

    Crowded, and team slots start mattering a lot more. Even EX Kyo I'd say is already a character that isn't top tier material in all slots.
    Post edited by Komatik on
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  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    A stab at top 10ish list (grouped by tiers, no order within the tiers)

    Mr. Karate
    Kim
    EX Iori
    Shen

    Iori
    EX Kyo
    Chin
    Vice
    Takuma
    Benimaru
    Hwa
    Kyo


    I would argue these dozen characters pretty much dominate the game. Best in the game? I'd say Kim is tops, with Karate and EX Iori close behind. I'd put Kim above Karate just because it's harder to keep Kim out than Karate and IMO Kim's neutral game is more oppressive than Karate's.

    I'd say there's been some movement in the last year. I think Kim overtook Mr. K as number one, and I think EX Kyo, Takuma, and Vice have seen an increase in presence. I'd also say Hwa and Kyo have trended downward (and so has claw Iori, to a lesser extent). I thought Benimaru would see a big jump in usage, but it hasn't really happened.

    Of the mid and low-tiered characters, nobody's really distinguished themselves too much from the pack. Does anybody think otherwise?
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  • blufangblufang Darkstalker for life Joined: Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭✭✭
    YorKeY wrote: »
    That team you play damn.... tier... wh...... XD

    benimaru and karate look like shit i can understand kim cause he's bad ass... sorry i was being too direct. XD
    but yes i believe beni is top tier...

    Well Beni might appeal to those who are into....flamboyant characters let's say. He does have an interesting playstyle. Mr. Karate though.....playstyle wise or aesthetic wise, I don't think anyone would play him he wasn't so powerful.



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  • blufangblufang Darkstalker for life Joined: Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Poor Mr. Karate....I never knew. Was Kim the culprit all along?
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  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭✭
    blufang wrote: »
    YorKeY wrote: »
    That team you play damn.... tier... wh...... XD

    benimaru and karate look like shit i can understand kim cause he's bad ass... sorry i was being too direct. XD
    but yes i believe beni is top tier...

    Well Beni might appeal to those who are into....flamboyant characters let's say. He does have an interesting playstyle. Mr. Karate though.....playstyle wise or aesthetic wise, I don't think anyone would play him he wasn't so powerful.

    Pretty odd that I like the feel of my whole team's playstyles a lot, then? Damn, I've done something impossible, better call a news crew.
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  • YorKeYYorKeY Road to 5K Dota 2 MMR, so close, yet so far away. Joined: Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭
    Dang even if it started of as a joke, the joke smack that started it all was pretty damn hard to begin with.
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  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    A stab at top 10ish list (grouped by tiers, no order within the tiers)

    Mr. Karate
    Kim
    EX Iori
    Shen

    Iori
    EX Kyo
    Chin
    Vice
    Takuma
    Benimaru
    Hwa
    Kyo


    I would argue these dozen characters pretty much dominate the game. Best in the game? I'd say Kim is tops, with Karate and EX Iori close behind. I'd put Kim above Karate just because it's harder to keep Kim out than Karate and IMO Kim's neutral game is more oppressive than Karate's.

    I'd say there's been some movement in the last year. I think Kim overtook Mr. K as number one, and I think EX Kyo, Takuma, and Vice have seen an increase in presence. I'd also say Hwa and Kyo have trended downward (and so has claw Iori, to a lesser extent). I thought Benimaru would see a big jump in usage, but it hasn't really happened.

    Of the mid and low-tiered characters, nobody's really distinguished themselves too much from the pack. Does anybody think otherwise?

    I honestly think Claw is a little lower in the list. Still not bad, but people have figured out how to play against him. I would honestly put Beni in the top 6 characters because the number of tools and his versatility in team order allows you to be flexible with how you use him.
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  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    edited March 10
    My tiers weren't ordered, but I would mostly agree with what you said. Beni may very well be the best character of that second tier - his oki isn't quite as abusive as the top-tier characters and he isn't as versatile with his midscreen damage, but his neutral game is as good or better than the top-tier characters.

    I have less experience with claw Iori than anybody in the second tier, with the possible exception of EX Kyo. Though he may have slipped somewhat from his early usage/rating, as an anchor I think he's as versatile or more versatile than anybody in the second tier (except maybe Vice). I guess my point is, he's still aged better than Kyo and Hwa, whose limitations have been exposed IMO.

    Do you see anybody standing out from the "rest of the pack" characters? I kinda forgot about Yuri, who you could make a good argument belongs in the second tier. I think she's easier to keep out than the best rushdown characters, but she still has a really good mixup and does good damage. Other than that, I think Elizabeth, Duo Lon, and K' have good potential to stand above the rest. Liz and K' require more work than the higher-tiered characters, but their tools and damage are good enough to compete IMO. Duo Lon's pretty handicapped by his inability to do damage, but his space control is pretty unique, and his mixup game still gives people a lot of problems.
    Post edited by Mr. Warzard on
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  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    edited March 10
    My tiers weren't ordered, but I would mostly agree with what you said. Beni may very well be the best character of that second tier - his oki isn't quite as abusive as the top-tier characters and he isn't as versatile with his midscreen damage, but his neutral game is as good or better than the top-tier characters.

    I have less experience with claw Iori than anybody in the second tier, with the possible exception of EX Kyo. Though he may have slipped somewhat from his early usage/rating, as an anchor I think he's as versatile or more versatile than anybody in the second tier (except maybe Vice). I guess my point is, he's still aged better than Kyo and Hwa, whose limitations have been exposed IMO.

    Do you see anybody standing out from the "rest of the pack" characters? I kinda forgot about Yuri, who you could make a good argument belongs in the second tier. I think she's easier to keep out than the best rushdown characters, but she still has a really good mixup and does good damage. Other than that, I think Elizabeth, Duo Lon, and K' have good potential to stand above the rest. Liz and K' require more work than the higher-tiered characters, but their tools and damage are good enough to compete IMO. Duo Lon's pretty handicapped by his inability to do damage, but his space control is pretty unique, and his mixup game still gives people a lot of problems.

    Liz I would still put pretty low, but of course not saying she is bad. Her problem is that she does a lot of work for not always a ton of damage. K' to me feels like a one trick pony. He's probably one of the most one dimensional characters in the game.

    Duo though is easily near the top. As a point or 2nd character he is absolutely dangerous. He isn't a character who will do a lot of damage quickly because of his low damage output, but man is it hard to pin him down and actually get a hit on him. He's probably one of the best at keeping a lead in the entire game. He's also really meter efficient.

    Here is how I personally would do the first couple tiers based on overall versatility.

    Put them anywhere in any situation
    Mr.K, EX Iori, Kim, Benimaru, Hwa

    Has problem match ups or positions, but overall still really good and can play multiple roles
    Shen, King, Yuri, Duo Long, EX Kyo, Kyo, Athena, Takuma, Ryo, Sakai, Ash, Chin, Vice

    All the other characters IMO start to fall into roles of "specialist" where the roles they can take on a team are limited, but they still perform those roles well. For instance Joe is still really good, but it's hard to put him anywhere besides #2 on a team because he needs the meter for the stun combo and also he doesn't make the best anchor. Mai makes a very good anchor, Mature is an awesome point character, etc.

    Overall no character is unusable, but where the tops make their mark is that there isn't a bad spot to put them. They can play any match up and play any position. They have good tools, high enough damage output to play anchor, and also can be meter efficient on point.
    Post edited by LoyalSol on
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    When I see Liz players, I'm always impressed how they seem to get damage off of such a wide variety of situations. She has to to hustle, but for lower-tier characters, the test for me is how they stack up against the tops. The best Liz players can definitely hang with the top-tier characters.

    Why do you see K' as one-dimensional? His normals are pretty good, and everything he does pushes you to the corner, where his damage is really scary. Eins trigger is an annoying neutral tool that helps him in his goal to corner his opponents. He has his weaknesses (meter-dependent, not as safe as the top tiers), but he again seems like he can hang with the top-tier characters.
    LoyalSol wrote: »
    Overall no character is unusable, but where the tops make their mark is that there isn't a bad spot to put them. They can play any match up and play any position. They have good tools, high enough damage output to play anchor, and also can be meter efficient on point.

    I think what makes the top characters top is that they have really oppressive neutral tools. Kim has probably the best footsies in the game and his oki mixup is a nightmare. It's very hard to react to Karate's pressure, and he can convert his DM/SDM off of a million different situations. EX Iori might have the best oki in the game, and controls space very well with his normals and rekkas. Shen can punish and convert damage off of a ton of situations, and his pressure is tough to react to as well. The common thread IMO is versatility in terms of landing damage, not so much meter usage or team placement.

    Also, do you think Hwa is as versatile as the others in your top tier? Always viewed him as meter dependent, point Hwa wouldn't be a great look IMO. I think Yuri is more versatile than Hwa, but it would be weird to put her in the top group just because she isn't as good as those other characters.
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  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    Also, do you think Hwa is as versatile as the others in your top tier? Always viewed him as meter dependent, point Hwa wouldn't be a great look IMO. I think Yuri is more versatile than Hwa, but it would be weird to put her in the top group just because she isn't as good as those other characters.

    I don't have time to address all the topics, but I'll quickly mention about this one.

    Hwa doesn't need meter to be scary by any means. He actually is pretty damn good on point. Most people know about all the things he can do while drunk, but regular Hwa still has a lot of tools to watch out for. He has probably one of the most annoy sets of normals in the game. Between s.A, slide, s.CD, s.D, etc. his set of normals is obnoxious and also converts easily into massive damage. His buttons even give Kim troubles. He's also got a ton of shenanigans

    I've found when playing Hwa point that instead of getting drunk in the 1st round just play it straight and then if you win the 1st round you can choose to HD (His 2 bar does an easy 80%) or activate drunk mode.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    http://shoryuken.com/2014/05/02/whos-top-tier-check-out-the-latest-character-rankings-from-arcadia-for-super-street-fighter-iv-arcade-edition-ver-2012-guilty-gear-xrd-sign-persona-4-the-ultimax-ultra-suplex-hold-and-more/

    Any thoughts about the three tier lists for KOF posted here? My initial reactions:

    Japanese list

    - They love themselves some Iori! Very surprised to see EX Iori rated above Karate and Kim, and even more surprised to see claw Iori in the top 4, above Shen.

    - I still think XIII Kyo and Hwa are overrated.

    - This is a very conservative list.

    Anchor list

    - LOL@ the shoutout to Ash. Not saying I disagree, but I found that interesting.

    - Surprised to see Benimaru and Takuma absent from the higher tiers. Yuri should be at least in the B tier as well.

    Reynald list

    - Wow @ Yuri in the top 4. Can't say I agree with that.

    - Also can't believe he thinks claw Iori and Shen are in D tier! And Vice too? That's just nuts to me.
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  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm not surprised at Iori being rated so high. You can't be a complete bully with his neutral game necessarily, but his meterless game is monstrous. Everything into rekkas, rekkas into great oki into more rekkas. Both corner carry AND damage and amazing buttons. And if you have the infinite down it gets worse. He's basically made to OCV teams.

    Karate is pretty amazing too and has a bunch of free supers like Claw does with dp~break, but his meterless game still isn't up to Iori's standard. It's absolutely rock solid, but it isn't insane the way Iori's is.
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  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    Not saying EX Iori isn't all that, he's for sure top tier. And that's fine if you want to have him as the best character in the game, that's a separate argument (I for sure rate him behind Karate and Kim). But I don't agree that he's a full tier higher than Karate and Kim. That's what I found surprising.

    EX Iori is more versatile than Karate and Kim, and probably has the best oki in the game. However, overall his normals are worse than both (especially in the air), and his damage is worse as well. He is the only one of the three with an infinite, but the infinite is not dominating the game by any means, and remains a risky thing to burn resources for.

    I don't even know that his meterless game is better than Karate and Kim, who don't really need meter to execute their gameplans. (especially Kim, who gets hard knockdowns all day regardless of meter) The difference is that Karate and Kim get even better with meter, while EX Iori's damage potential doesn't get the same boost.
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  • CaptainGinyuCaptainGinyu Anti-Obstructionist Joined: Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A good EX Iori is so difficult for me to pressure, that dude has like every tool on the planet for no reason. I feel like it is that completeness and versatility that puts him over the edge, he can literally play any position well and he's always a threat. I also find him to be much scarier than say a Kim because Kim is pretty simplistic and easy to read, he has stupid stuff but it isn't anything that will make you be like "why I die?".

    Senor Karate is also getting figured out, people know how to deal with him now. Chin is the next big project.

    I feel like Hwa Jai is like the C.Viper (from UMVC3) of this game. Very good character but nobody plays him really, I wonder why.
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  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Baton Rouge, Lousiana Joined: Posts: 5,457 mod
    Not saying EX Iori isn't all that, he's for sure top tier. And that's fine if you want to have him as the best character in the game, that's a separate argument (I for sure rate him behind Karate and Kim). But I don't agree that he's a full tier higher than Karate and Kim. That's what I found surprising.

    EX Iori is more versatile than Karate and Kim, and probably has the best oki in the game. However, overall his normals are worse than both (especially in the air), and his damage is worse as well. He is the only one of the three with an infinite, but the infinite is not dominating the game by any means, and remains a risky thing to burn resources for.

    I don't even know that his meterless game is better than Karate and Kim, who don't really need meter to execute their gameplans. (especially Kim, who gets hard knockdowns all day regardless of meter) The difference is that Karate and Kim get even better with meter, while EX Iori's damage potential doesn't get the same boost.

    Iori's air normals go toe to toe with Kim and Karate's, but they are harder to use. Kim and Mr.K can abuse the same normal for multiple situations while Iori has to press his normals based on what the opponent is doing.

    And I'll say point Iori is probably one of the best points in the game. He is so meter efficient and none of his tools absolutely need meter to be scary.
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  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭✭
    You can just drop the "probably" there, I think, as well as "one of the". He's got all the tools, the quality of his buttons is amazing, everything leads to rekkas ie. top notch damage, good corner carry and usable knockdowns on an oki monster, and you don't have to choose like, say, AE Akuma has to. And that's all without the infinite.
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  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 667
    There's a lot of talk about EX Iori's buttons being so great, but I'm really not seeing it. On the ground, the only thing that stands out is s.D, which is nice, but not nearly as good as, for example, kim s.B/s.D, Shen s.C, etc. In the air, his normals are good (j.B a2a, j.CD, early j.D, that ambiguous crossup j.C), but they don't shut down entire jump games the way karate j.CD and kim j.CD do. Most characters have a ton of difficulty dealing with the normals of Karate and Kim, but when I think of what makes EX Iori top tier, it isn't his normals (which are "only" above-average).
    LoyalSol wrote: »
    Hwa doesn't need meter to be scary by any means. He actually is pretty damn good on point. Most people know about all the things he can do while drunk, but regular Hwa still has a lot of tools to watch out for. He has probably one of the most annoy sets of normals in the game. Between s.A, slide, s.CD, s.D, etc. his set of normals is obnoxious and also converts easily into massive damage. His buttons even give Kim troubles. He's also got a ton of shenanigans

    I've found when playing Hwa point that instead of getting drunk in the 1st round just play it straight and then if you win the 1st round you can choose to HD (His 2 bar does an easy 80%) or activate drunk mode.

    I disagree with Hwa being a strong point character. Hwa on point has to deal with being zoned out by projectile characters, characters that outrange him like Billy and Duo Lon, and Hwa's pressure/momentum is hard to sustain against solid defense without meter. I agree that Hwa's ground normals are awesome at midrange, but it's hard for him to get out of pressure when people get inside (his dp is slow), especially without meter. Also, how does Hwa easily convert his normals to massive damage without meter? I know he has oki dive kick shenanigans, but that's not the easiest thing to set up, and we aren't seeing a lot of that being done in high level play.

    How do his buttons give Kim problems? He can't really keep Kim out of the air (his air normals are completely outclassed by Kim), and while his ground poke game is really good, Kim can compete with s.B and s.D.
    "Street Fighter 4 ruins everything" - Steve H.
    CVS2: Grown Man Street Fighting
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
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