KoF13 Tier List Discussion

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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    In terms of combos ,his Raijinken is good for midscreen damage, especially into his 2Xqcf Raijinken DM, plus I'm sure there are plenty of ways to extend with EX Collider as well.

    I'm thinking something along the lines of EX Collider, sandou-geri, raijinken, sandou-geri, Raijinken DM.

    Let me digress a bit.

    How does everyone feel about this? Kyo/Beni/Andy, Beni/Kyo/Andy , Beni/Andy/Kyo

    Also, Mature/Beni/Andy Beni/Andy/Mature and lastly Beni/Mature/Andy.

    What do you guys think is the best order of both teams?

    I suggest Benimaru should go first, then Andy (because he is a good meter builder and his pressure for the most part is rather safe). Mature should be the anchor. She is awesome and she is rush-down goddess with many tricks up her sleeve! Mature can also cause a ludicrous amount of chip damage with a few of her specials as well. Beni does not need that much meter to be affective. Andy is a good battery character - a projectile, DP, and BEAUTIFUL cr.D, and decent meter-less combos. Should Mature have meter, she can beat the living hell out of the opponent. (I really love Mature rekka special moves).
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    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
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  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    This fighting game is AWESOME as it is well-balanced. ... And, now I'm going to collect data on Mature and post her "team tier placement" information as Havatchu invented.

    Awesome man, thanks for giving credit for the format, as weak as it was, haha.

    You should sign up for Dream Cancel if you aren't already, it's only 2 years old, but it's nice. Lots of things there, I'm sure you're aware, but it's still a nice place.

    Sadly, DCancel doesn't have Mature framedata at this moment. :(

    http://www.dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mature_(XIII)
    I suggest Benimaru should go first, then Andy (because he is a good meter builder and his pressure for the most part is rather safe). Mature should be the anchor. She is awesome and she is rush-down goddess with many tricks up her sleeve! Mature can also cause a ludicrous amount of chip damage with a few of her specials as well. Beni does not need that much meter to be affective. Andy is a good battery character - a projectile, DP, and BEAUTIFUL cr.D, and decent meter-less combos. Should Mature have meter, she can beat the living hell out of the opponent. (I really love Mature rekka special moves).

    Cool, but you forgot about the proper Kyo/Beni/Andy order. :D

    I assume you would go with Beni/Kyo/Andy?
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    snip
    Oops. Kyo/Beni/Andy..... Andy as an anchor is not really a bad idea, really. With meter, Andy is just evil. His Neo Max has priority over... EVERYTHING but it is completely unsafe should it be blocked. Any combination would work, but Andy builds meter the quickest. I would probably still put Andy in the middle. Kyo as a starter or anchor can work out pretty well because he has every tool available and he can build meter pretty quickly... but, the problem with that is, Kyo also spends meter quickly, too. I was about to say that Kyo can be the anchor since he can hit pretty hard. Unlike EX Kyo, he can cancel his df.D command moves into other special and is a perfect tool for HD combos. Kyo's projectile should be used sparingly sense it is ground based (Andy's projectile on the other hand is slightly better). Andy easily makes a very good battery character. Kyo's best comboes might rely on him launching his opponent in the air, so it is best to know how to set your opponent up for that. Beni has a place in the anchor as well because his HD combo's are rather easy for the most part and has a very fantastic move set. With a team like this, the player can get away with placing these characters in any position really. But, Andy should atleast be the middle character though.
    You can either do this: Kyo/Andy/Beni or this: Beni/Andy/Kyo... either one of these might be trustworthy.
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    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    Did we ever speak about Vice...? Last I checked, she is a very tricky but fun character to play. A grappling character that I somehow forgot when talking to another player about their Raiden/Goro/Clark teams. I thought her EX moves and grappling set ups were nice.
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    KOFXIV: Kyo / Luong / Mai [Beni, MuiMui, Whip, Geese, Shun, Leona, Terry]
    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
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  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 785

    I still stand by how I created my tier list a while back. I don't think anything has changed from it.

    Just so we have it all here, is this the tier list you're referring to?

    KoF XIII General Discussion: Part II
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    It's Mature turn:

    Position 1: High tier
    First thing is first - she has no command moves. But, this does not stop Mature from being the beast that she is. She is a offensive character and a rush-down character, much like Mr. Karate and Duo Lon... Mature one of the best cl.B moves in the game because it is a two hit combo and can cancel into other special moves. Mature can do pretty well without meter and she can build meter at a decent rate. Here, the player has easy access to BnB's combos like j.C, cl.B, > qcbx3 A or C. The EX version of her Death Row (the rekka special) does five hits and the player can rake up a serious amount of damage this way. The player can close the opponent down using qcfhcb. A or C then DP.A - after then you try to use a jump in to option select throw/throw tech or a cross-up or block and punish with another BnB combo. Last, Mature can cancel her Metal Massacre into her Super moves. If the opponents wants to block, then they are still in trouble sense she's kind of like Iceman from MVC2 - lots and lots of chip damage. Here, you can either save meter while using safe pokes and punish combos then rushing the opponent down, trimming their options - or you can go wild with EX moves and all if your second character is someone like Athena or Kyo... Her HD combos are easily accessible and damaging too: j.C, cl.B, HD activation, cl.B, QCB.Ax2, HCB.B, QCB.Ax2, HCB.B,
    Or cl.B, HD activation, cl.B, QCBx3 > Heaven's Gate > Neo Max for a easy yet damaging HD combo for 2 stocks. The player can continue their assault during HD mode and then do Heavan's Gate > Neo Max to maximize their damage.

    Battery: Mid tier. She might do good in this category too... Heaven's Gate has projectile invincibility it can work as a good counter attack against zoners and can be comboed into. Mature plays the same role as she did in the first position, but only having four meters available. The problem is that she might be spending meter as well in this position. She may have good meter-less combos but as a meter builder, Mature can benefit more from characters like Kula or Yuri. Mature should probably be played a little more cautiously in this position, though she can easily make a good battery character because of her great offensive game.

    Anchor: High tier. Mature is a very good anchor and has a lot of comeback potential. The thing is, Mature has many tools available. Projectile and her DP > A or C can be used as preemptive anti-airs and has nice priority. The EX version come out automatic and does a nice 140 damage and the player can do a reset and continue a good mix-up or option select block punish or throw. Her Neo Max counts as an overhead too, so the player can probably use her HD activation for mix-up purposes and then use her Neo Max (the player can free cancel their moves even if the opponent is blocking while in HD mode). Mature can use her moves, trimming the opponents life away nicely and then set up for a crouching guard. Also, after a counter blow back attack, Mature can whiff cancel into her Neo Max as well. Mature st.C comes out very quickly as well, especially after her rekka combos or her Metal Massacre. A good HD combo would be something like this... j.C, st.C, (HD) st.C, [qcb+Px3 (7)]x3, qcfx2+P, qcb hcf+AC as a nice finisher. It does not take that much meter to do a serious amount of damage, which is why she should be put in this position or the first position while other character can back her up. Mature is very nice against zoners and defensive players because she can blow them up quickly and she has a nice set of block strings and chip damage. The player can make a win/win situation if they consistently make good reads.
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    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    Here's Mai. (For some odd reason she is extremely underrated).

    Starter: Mid tier. If the player is putting Mai in this position, they are telling one of the three things: 1): They're going to zone the shit out of me. Or 2): Other characters benefit from her so they will play her as if she were a battery character instead with only three meters. Or 3): They are noobs. Mai CAN do well with just three meters (it would only take one drive guage to produce 381 damage with this: (corner combo) s.C, hcf+K (2hits), [DC] air.qcb+C, qcb+C, air throw.
    Also she can use cr.C to reset her opponent after a EX HCF > K or her EX DM because she has a lot of time after the move. Her normal moves are very awesome and it is very easy to play keep away. Her Musasabi no Mai (d charge u > P) helps her get around the field more and she can cancel that into her command move which also has good priority as an air to air move but is not safe on block unless you are aiming towards the opponent feet. The Musasabi no Mai can also be utilized after the opponent guards her Kanchousen (projectile). Mai also moves very fast, much like Duo Lon does, but her jumping angles are extremely... funny. She easily exposed anti-airs this way so her jumps might takes some getting used to. Last, Mai can corner cross-up from her throw attack if she throw her opponent into the corner (King and Mai are the only character who can do this. Whether this is a glitch or not is up to people's interpretation) Her command normal air d.B can beat certain anti-airs as well. It is also important to keep in mid that she can control air-to-air combat because of her (albeit weird) high jump arcs. This position is not recommended and there are better characters who fill the role of the starter character.

    Battery: High tier. Mai is probably one of the best battery characters. Mai's pokes and normals are monstrous. Mai is also basically the corner goddess of this game. Her mid-screen combos are not damaging at all but the player can push the opponent towards the corner. Mai's diving Musasabi is not safe on guard and neither is her HCF > B or C unless it is the EX version. She can played in many methods including keep away, meter builder, or pressure (like Adel used to). Mai also has one of the best Neo Max's in the game. She can cancel her st.A into her QCB.C as well and her st.A has very good range and priority. Her EX Kanchousen can easily catch others off guard as well. Her HD combo for 2 meters is extremely dangerous as well and it does not require much effort to accomplish either if the player simply zones or drags the opponent right back into the corner. Her normals and her speed give her a good advantage and she can just hop over every projectile, except Mature's for obvious reasons and she has a wall jump, all of which can be used for an air-throw, d.B, cross-up, or her dive. A lot of her EX specials leave the opponent in a juggle state. For one stock, Mai can score an easy 436 damage for cr.B, cr.B, cr.A, qcb+AC, qcb+C, qcb+C, qcb+C, Air Throw.
    For two stock HD combos Mai can do this: j.C, s.C, [HD] s.D, hcf D [2hits], [HDC] air.qcb C, hcf D [2hits], [HDC] qcb C, hcf B [1hit], [HDC] qcb A, (hcf D [2hits], [HDC] qcb C) x2, qcb C, Ex qcb~hcf+ K which equals 769 damage. Mai's Kanchousen can cancel into her Neo Max as well. Mai's high jump arcs are still key to her game too because she falls down quickly and she can easily bait others into anti-airing her for Mai use a punish combo. It gets worse for the opponent if she has one super meter ready and if they are in the corner. Mai can also reset her opponent after her EX DM and continue her assault this way or bait the now standing opponent. It is simple to drag the opponent into the corner with cr.B, cr.A > link cr.C, to her HCF.B > QCBHCF.B OR just cl.C, HCF.B, > QCBHCF.B (if Mai is in HD mode she Max cancel for over 600 dmg.) Mai has a lot of options for HD combos. Mai tends gets really weak under pressure, so using her normals, Guard Cancels, and her keep away game will help her a lot

    Anchor: High Mid tier. Mai's midscreen combos aren't very damaging, but most of them involve her pushing the opponent away from her. As said before, Mai has a lot of how low mix-ups, especially from j.C and her chain cancelable A and B moves. Mai's cross up j.D might be good but not as good as j.B. Mai can still use her ground Musasabi no Mai and then cancel that into her air d.B command move can also be cancelled into her dive special. Like Leona, Mai can dominate in the mid-air as well especially thanks to her d.B, her cross-up j.C, and her air throw. For good keep-away she can also use her blow back attack and whiff cancel it into her projectile and then use her ground Musasabi no Mai to propel herself forward for cross-ups block strings or option select throws/throw techs (her Kanchousen causes a huge guard stun like most projectile do). Mai can also chain combo B>D should the opponent what a hit confirm into an HD combo. The reason why she is a bit lower in this category because as a battery character Claw Iori or Ash could help her out big time as anchors when she gets KO. This position is also not recommended but the only reason she is still high mid in this position is because Mai is one vindictive bitch thanks to her corner juggles, keep away, and her Neo Max. For 908 dmg Mai can just use j.C, s.C, [HD] s.D, hcf D [2hits], [HDC] air.qcb P, hcf D [2hits], [HDC] qcb C, hcf B [1hit], [HDC] qcb C, qcb C, Ex qcb~hcf +K DM, [MC] qcf~hcb +AC Neo Max. Without any stock, if the second character should not save meter is something like this... j.C, s.C, [HD] s.D, hcf D, [HDC] air.qcb C, hcf D [2hits], [HDC] qcb C, hcf B [1hit], [HDC] qcb C, (hcf D [2hits], [HDC] qcb C) x2, qcb C, air throw for 659 damage.
    For more information and tutorials, please visit here:
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    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
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    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
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  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686
    My list. Still learning a lot of the cast though so this is 100% guranteed to change. No real order in the tiers

    S: Kyo, Karate, Benimaru, EX Kyo, Iori, Hwa
    A+: EX Iori, Billy, Yuri, Saiki,
    A: Shen, Vice, K', Kim, Takuma, Kensou, Clark,
    A-: Mature, Chin, Robert, Ryo, King
    B+: Daimon, Kula, Ralf, Andy, Joe, Elizabeth
    B: Leona, Duo Lon, Athena, Terry, Raiden
    B-: Ash, Maxima
    C: Mai

    Again I still have a lot to learn about some of the cast so this is very rough.
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177

    Post- EVO tier list (Results based, recent game play experience, and tool accessibility):
    S: Beni, Yuri, Claw Iori, Mr. Karate, EX Kyo, Regular Kyo, Shen, King
    A+: EX Iori, Mature, Hwa, Billy, Kim
    A: Saiki, Takuma, K', Betty
    A-: Ralf, Clark, Ash, Mai, Ryo, Kensou, Kula, Athena, Daimon, Andy, Vice, Duo Lon, Leona
    B+: Chin, Robert, Raiden, Joe
    B: Terry, Maxima


    Put Athena in Terry's place, put Chin in Athena's spot, move Terry to B+. And yeah I think that'll do.
    STOMP!
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    Here are two sample's based on my post-EVO list: The first one is, more-or-less, the exact same as the one I posted earlier. Changes are bound to occur, due to the fact that the game is not even a year old.

    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tr782s8v4b5lf7dtc1c9ae794b78ibanah78f7787cdw7ccaf78w2t8zc15l2s90ai8xf6cbc0ai4b8w7bdtaf7ac37baianc1h6ae5mc3amf65mai5licfgc1fhagc87c5k7c5l4bak7cak2s-bk8

    This list is much more difficult to summarize, due to the fact that each character may fit into two categories (high tier, low tier, well-rounded, and having faults). I try to be as accurate as possible, but changes will occur should something else be discovered. Once again these are all based on the EVO event, various tournament inputs, information from other KOF XIII players, and personal tournament/online experiences. Those who have more insight on a specific character from other tourney's should make corrections here.

    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trhx2tg92ub1e6g8ceedaieb2slvi9m1ailxfvg884ed6ib1fwbm2tcpail92uhwcek6efh5ai9y2tnn6lb1aib0ceedce7pagmwcdl8cd9ae7npaiedi8jkaijkcdhw84lz6lmx2tjl2tol2v-bkg-naGDH%20
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    KOFXIV: Kyo / Luong / Mai [Beni, MuiMui, Whip, Geese, Shun, Leona, Terry]
    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
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  • joeyjeremiahjoeyjeremiah Joey Jeremiah, Esq., at your service. Joined: Posts: 51
    One of the things that interests me is people's opinions on Claw and EX Iori. I often see people put Claw in their S tier despite his considerably weaker oki game, poorer reversal/anti-air options and lack of zoning compared to EX. People see "OMG 100% DAMAGE" and lose they minds without realizing damage isn't everything (or the fact that Flame can 100% too).

    Pro-tip: there's a reason 90% of Ioris at EVO were EX (and it's not just because of classic familiarity).
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    One of the things that interests me is people's opinions on Claw and EX Iori. I often see people put Claw in their S tier despite his considerably weaker oki game, poorer reversal/anti-air options and lack of zoning compared to EX. People see "OMG 100% DAMAGE" and lose they minds without realizing damage isn't everything (or the fact that Flame can 100% too).

    Pro-tip: there's a reason 90% of Ioris at EVO were EX (and it's not just because of classic familiarity).
    Fixed. It would behoove me to put EX Iori in my pocket as well. The only way the player can do that much damage with someone like Claw Iori is if they hit confirm and open their opponents defenses up - EX Iori is a bit more consistent in that aspect than Claw Iori, because the Claw Iori players is still taking a lot of risks.
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tr782s8w4g5lf7dyc4caah784g79icamag79f7787cak7bc9f68w2t8yc55l2s8yai8xf7cac4ak4g8w7bdyai7ac57aahamc4haah5mc4alf65mai5licfmc4fmaic87c5k7c5k4fc82sak2s-bk8
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    PSN: Dark_Ice_Saiko
    KOFXIV: Kyo / Luong / Mai [Beni, MuiMui, Whip, Geese, Shun, Leona, Terry]
    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
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  • TerrastormTerrastorm Joined: Posts: 263
    One of the things that interests me is people's opinions on Claw and EX Iori. I often see people put Claw in their S tier despite his considerably weaker oki game, poorer reversal/anti-air options and lack of zoning compared to EX. People see "OMG 100% DAMAGE" and lose they minds without realizing damage isn't everything (or the fact that Flame can 100% too).

    Pro-tip: there's a reason 90% of Ioris at EVO were EX (and it's not just because of classic familiarity).
    No, it is pretty much that. None of the players really have done that well with him.

    The best Ex-Iori I have seen is still Justius'.
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    Understood. The only thing that confuses me the most is Duo Lon's, Leona's, Ash's, Saiki's, and EX Iori's placement.
    EX Iori needs to be... somewhere in the high tier area. I just don't know WHERE exactly? S tier? A tier? EX Iori has a viable fire ball, a rekka special, a very nice DP, and has the ability to OTG his opponent. Damage is important but so are the tools. It is true that I did not see too many noteworthy EX Iori's (familiarity plays a role here too, but this is not KOF 98 anymore, unfortunately). Leona was switched to A tier, because at her best, she can REALLY beat the crap out of the opponent. The same can said for Duo Lon, especially if he is in the first position and even he has a lot of useful tools (in spite of his limited move set). The reason why EX Iori should be placed somewhere on the high tier is because he can do a good amount of damage with the tools he his. Leona is very good for defensive purposes and attacking with her requires planning and precision (much like Yuri does for more damaging combos, but Yuri can also get away with a lot more than just that kind of game play for obvious reasons).

    Recently, EX Iori became my pocket characters and I am likely to play him either the first position or anchor should some other event pop up where I live. To speak a little more about Ash and Saiki... Ash and Saiki are some of the best zoners (along with Athena, Joe, and perhaps Takuma). Ash could make for a good battery and anchor character, because with four meters at his disposal, Ash can shut down the opponent completely, but he suffers the same problems as Mai does: Ash's damage potential comes from the corner and he needs the corner dish out a maximized combo. Saiki on the other has probably THE best projectile in the game because it has really huge hit box. It does travel too quickly or too slow and Saiki can EASILY follow up with an attack - teleports? Check. Multiple anti-airs? Check. Fairly quick? Check. DM Command grab? CHECK! This is just the tip of the ice berg for Saiki, therefore he needs a place up in the higher tiers as well.

    Does any have a little more input on Ash, Saiki, and Leona? Enough could be said about Duo Lon and EX Iori, but feel free to elaborate on their tier placement, too. And, we should also make use of Havatchu's format, because I find it probably one of the best ways to judge a character by their tier placement. The format is also part of the reason why my tier list changed a little after EVO because it just seems like a great idea. The fact that you can select the order of your characters based on match ups or tools before the fight is a big helping.
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    KOFXIV: Kyo / Luong / Mai [Beni, MuiMui, Whip, Geese, Shun, Leona, Terry]
    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
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  • joeyjeremiahjoeyjeremiah Joey Jeremiah, Esq., at your service. Joined: Posts: 51
    No, it is pretty much that. None of the players really have done that well with him.

    Please. EVO top 8 and top 16 had major showings of EX Iori. You call that not doing well? When people go to EVO they go there to win. If Claw was better than EX people would be playing him instead especially since he's a straight forward character with less executional requirements than EX.

    The only thing Claw has over EX are resets, drive saving and a faster overhead. Claw can reset a lot later than Flame (note that Flame can also reset), but like I said, he has much less oki opportunities, is easily countered by zoners and his reversal sucks in comparison.

    EX is a much more well rounded version of the character with all the same normals (except overhead) and he gets a hard knockdown after every single BnB. You know when Claw gets a hard knockdown? When he lands a super. Do you see how important the oki game is now? How important counter-zoning is when you're against a barrage of Kings, Takumas, etc.?

    Both Ioris are A/A+ tier, but Flame is (IMO) much better for every situation than Claw.
  • joeyjeremiahjoeyjeremiah Joey Jeremiah, Esq., at your service. Joined: Posts: 51
    Does any have a little more input on Ash, Saiki, and Leona?

    Saiki is A/A+ tier as well. He can 100% off 3 meters/full drive and he has amazing normals which are all cancellable. Cl.C anti-airs, d.C anti-airs, qcf+C anti-airs, one of his DMs anti-airs, and he has position reversing DPs (great for putting opponents in the corner) for anti-air. He is an extremely difficult character to approach while still maintaining a solid ability to rushdown and deliver damage. His far D has great range, moves him forward, is invulnerable to lows and it frametraps. He can do the same shit in the air. He also has some silly and very fun stand-alone teleport gimmicks that aren't used by many people. He is honestly a character I can't find many weaknesses in. Or any for that matter. Maybe a lack of a screen-travelling EX fireball? And short hitconfirms? That's about it though. He is AWESOME.

    Ash is ... idk. He has the potential to be a great character off Guile-fundamentals alone, but he requires ridiculous meter consumption and execution to deliver damage. He has some of the most time consuming combos in the game which I guess can help him burn the clock, but that also means you can't fuck up during those seemingly unending (and quite complex) combos or else you cripple yourself. It's extremely hard to get in on him for much the same reasons as Saiki. He has mostly the same normals but better maneuverability than Saiki because of his forward and back command normals. His qcb+P is also really good at protecting himself during his zoning game. He's a bit like a more annoying Orochi Shermie. He just has to... work a lot harder for the damage. He's not a bad character, but you gotta be committed, and don't drop them combos. I would put him in mid-low tier.

    Leona is a sick character that people underestimated since release because of that stupid Bala/Romance tier list. She can mixup really well because of her overhead (which is a hard knockdown stand alone), has great low pokes, great standing normals, great hit confirms, you can't cross her up because of EX Moon Slasher, an instant overhead into specials/DMs, great space control with Baltic Launcher, she's fast as hell and she can threaten a DM anytime you leave the ground or try to counter Earring Bakuden. Her only failing is a lack of combo options outside of HD, but she still has some. She is solid mid tier, no lower than that.
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    Thanks joeyjeremiah and Terrastorm. This is the best I can come up with as far as current character information and tournament result goes. We'll just have to conduct more research and look forward to new tournament play results. I'm having fun here. Ash is still in the mid/A tier section. Saiki should be fine in the place he is in now. EX Iori moves up one.
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tr782s8w4g5lf7dyc4caah784g79icamag79f7c97f8x7ec9f68w2t8yc55l2s8yai8xf7cac4ak4g797fdyai7ac57aahamc4haah5mc4alf65mai5licfmc4fmaial7e5l7e5k4fc82sak2s-bk8
    Steam ID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/GDHTP | Twitch Channel: great_dark_hero
    PSN: Dark_Ice_Saiko
    KOFXIV: Kyo / Luong / Mai [Beni, MuiMui, Whip, Geese, Shun, Leona, Terry]
    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
    Come to dreamcancel.com for KOFXIV FAQS, wiki-updates, and mini-guides!

  • DarkGeneralDarkGeneral Joined: Posts: 4,424
    Claw Iori and OG Iori are two different characters. Claw wants to get in setup frame traps and create pressure to crack your defense and he has the speed to do so and he hits like a steamroller. He's the "rtsd" archetype and he capitalizes off of every hit that not many in the characters can match and has great blockstrings. OG Iori is more well rounded "jack of all trades" type of character. He can zone, he can control space and he can apply solid pressure. I heard someone describe him as "You don't beat ex Iori you beat the player using ex Iori" and I think that's pretty apt since he's designed to have no glaring flaws.. In contrast with Claw who is a monster up close but sometimes have trouble getting in but even then his ex qcb k is fast, gets him in and he's neutral on block.

    Basically it comes down to weather you think OG Iori having minimal flaws overweight just how strong Claw Iori is at executing his gameplan. I personally think Claw Iori toolset is stronger in this type of game than EX Iori's well roundness. Plus it doesn't help OG's case that 13 Kyo is built in a similar way but his zoning game isn't as strong as Ex Iori's but in return he hits way harder and he's considered top 5 by most people.
    Either way they're both really great characters designed for different style of play which they are potent in.
  • MAGUNITOMAGUNITO Brokeback Lover Joined: Posts: 95
    No top player does Raijinken loop because of the risk of dropping it in the corner. Raijinken loop guarantees 500+ damage but just a simple 214+Cx2 into Laido Kick is about 490 Damage with VERY minimal risk which is still good.

    A bit of a late reply but whatever ;). Actually the Raijinken loop guarantees death, not 500+. . My friend (who made the vid) is getting pretty consistand with it (i would say at around 70ish % atm) so i have no doubt that its possible to use it as a staple as long as you put some serious practice in ^^. I mean there are plenty of hard combos in other games that people use as staples, ROM in mvc2 etc.

    IMO learning this is what gets Beni a guaranteed spot in the top5. His damage goes from great to insane, and combined with all his other stuff it is just too much.
  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    A bit of a late reply but whatever ;). Actually the Raijinken loop guarantees death, not 500+. . My friend (who made the vid) is getting pretty consistand with it (i would say at around 70ish % atm) so i have no doubt that its possible to use it as a staple as long as you put some serious practice in ^^. I mean there are plenty of hard combos in other games that people use as staples, ROM in mvc2 etc.

    IMO learning this is what gets Beni a guaranteed spot in the top5. His damage goes from great to insane, and combined with all his other stuff it is just too much.

    Dude, he's already top 5. However, top Beni players like Reynald and Romance do not do the Raijinken loop due to it's risk. We all know how important meter management is, so if you mess up the loop, you lose almost all your meter depending on where you stopped. I know how to do the loop really consistent along with more harder shit but when pressure is on your shoulders you can easily drop the ball. And when I said 500+, I meant 500 damage and above, which includes death lol. I saw Reynald drop it twice at FR and he wasted all his meter, ever since then I have not seen him do it.
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    Her Neo Max counts as an overhead too, so the player can probably use her HD activation for mix-up purposes and then use her Neo Max (the player can free cancel their moves even if the opponent is blocking while in HD mode). Mature can use her moves, trimming the opponents life away nicely and then set up for a crouching guard.

    Very nice, did not know this, good knowledge to have.
    Insanity is freedom
    The moment I fell in love with specs- "I believe in the Beyblader philosophy, for I am one who Beyblades."
    Shaft's posts are canon.
  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Nothing Comes Easy Joined: Posts: 1,929
    that doesn't work, her neomax isn't 0f after the flash, so they can always just high block on reaction to it.
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  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    Yo GreatDarkHero, someone is ahead of us in DreamCancel, haha.

    TheMasteroth

    http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1908.225;topicseen

    "XIII Tier List:

    An overall ranking assigned based on the total number of tools, strengths and weaknesses each character possesses.
    S: Mr. Karate, Hwa, Kyo (XIII), Benimaru, Kyo (EX), Iori (EX), Takuma, Goro

    A+: Kim, Iori (Claw), Yuri, Elisabeth, Robert, Andy, Billy, Saiki, K’, Shen

    A: Duo Lon, Kensou, Chin, Kula, Joe, Mature

    B+: Leona, Ash, Vice, Athena, Ryo, Raiden, King, Terry

    B: Ralf, Clark, Mai, Maxima


    Potential Based on Position:

    A ranking assigned to each character based on how strong they are when compared to other characters in the same position on the team (first/second/third). Essentially a tier list for each spot on the team.
    Andy: A+/A/B+
    Ash: B/B+/A
    Athena: A/B+/B
    Benimaru: A+/S/S
    Billy: A/A/A
    Chin: A/A/A+
    Clark: B+/B/B
    Duo Lon: A/B+/B
    Elisabeth: A/A/A
    Goro: B+/A+/S
    Hwa: A+/S/S
    Iori (Claw): A/A+/S
    Iori (EX): S/A+/A+
    Joe: B/B+/A
    K’: A/A/A
    Kensou: A/A/A
    Kim: S/A/A
    King: A/B+/B
    Kula: A/A/B+
    Kyo (XIII): S/A+/A+
    Kyo (EX): S/A+/A
    Leona: B/B+/A+
    Mai: B/B+/B+
    Mature: A/B+/B+
    Maxima: B/B+/B+
    Mr. Karate: S/S/S
    Raiden: B+/B+/A
    Ralf: A/B+/B+
    Robert: S/A/B+
    Ryo: A/B+/B+
    Saiki: B+/A/S
    Shen: B/A/S
    Takuma: A+/S/S
    Terry: B/B+/B+
    Vice: B/B+/A
    Yuri: B+/A+/S


    Top 10 Batteries:

    A list of the characters who both build meter very quickly, while also having many tools and strong damage options with no meter or drive.
    Mr. Karate - No bad matchups, amazing at everything.
    Kyo (XIII) - Also no bad matchups, good at everything, needs corner more than Karate does.
    Kyo (EX) - Very strong normals, safe pressure, auto guard bullshit.
    Kim - Safe as hell, fast as hell, strong as hell.
    Iori (EX) - Every tool, he’s goddamn Iori.
    Duo Lon - Fast fast fast, scary mixups. Hope you like blocking.
    Billy - Amazing normals, safe pressure, good meter building and cost-effective combos.
    Robert - Every tool in the game, meterless, so why not?
    Andy - See Robert, but without grab and with higher damage.
    Hwa - Like Kim until he gets a drink in him, then he’s like Mr. Karate + Takuma combined.

    Honourable Mentions:


    Kensou
    Ralf
    King
    Athena
    Mature


    Top 10 Anchors:

    Characters who have many tools and extremely high damage potential with high resources.

    Hwa - Stupid damage, can start 800+ damage combos (non-HD) from any hit, and lands hits well
    Mr. Karate - No bad matchups, amazing at everything, and now with high damage!
    Benimaru - Throw combos, rekkas, zoning, crossups, he has it all.
    Takuma - Touch of death. The end.
    Goro - Grab touch of near death. The end is near.
    Shen - Don’t jump! Don’t not jump! Don’t get hit! At all!
    Saiki - Good zoning and defensive tools; insanely strong HD combo in the corner.
    Iori (EX) - Every tool needed to get into HD mode.
    Kyo (XIII) - Like EX Iori minus without grab > HD.
    Iori (Claw) - Great pressure, great mixups, great damage. Lacks zoning tools.

    Honourable Mentions:

    Yuri
    Chin
    Leona
    Kim
    Elisabeth


    Top 10 1 Meter and/or 1 Drive Potential (Ideal Middle Characters):

    This is essentially an assessment of a character’s EX and Drive Cancel usefulness alongside their tools with low to medium resources.
    Hwa - Who else nearly kills you from a mid-screen invulnerable shoryu?
    Takuma - Who else nearly kills you from a mid-screen meterless grab?
    Mr. Karate - Have you been paying attention so far?
    Benimaru - Every tool needed to land big damage without HD.
    Chin - Drunk combos are scary, very strong defense and tricky offense.
    Kyo (XIII) - Doesn’t really need meter but can use it to increase his already great damage.
    Joe - 1 drive and 1 meter gives him access to ridiculous combo potential in the corner.
    Yuri - With meter and drive her offense, defense and combo potential all skyrocket.
    Goro - Meter and drive allow him to turn his grabs into amazing damage. Gains an overhead.
    Iori (Claw) - High damage mid-screen and even higher damage in the corner.

    Honourable Mentions:


    Billy
    Shen
    Iori (EX)
    Terry
    K’




    This is a well thought-out tier list of the entire cast based on which position on the team that they are most effective in, how their gameplay changes based on the amount of meter/drive they have and how they compare to one another in the team placement scenario. The tier list was mainly done by Sami (t3h mAsTarOth...!) and Matt Alder over the course of roughly the last 6 months."
    Insanity is freedom
    The moment I fell in love with specs- "I believe in the Beyblader philosophy, for I am one who Beyblades."
    Shaft's posts are canon.
  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    Disagree quite a bit with it. Claw Iori is S BEING LAST because he is very meter heavy to get those 500+ combos. If anything I would put him A+/A/S in terms of where he should go. EX Iori is not S last, he's probably S/A/A+ in that order. Takuma has the best 50% drive/1 bar combo because he does 600 damage with that much meter. I think Kyo(XIII) is second behind him following a Drunk Hwa and then probably K.'

    Also, Ralf low tier with Clark? HA! No way in Hell. If Ralf had his Bomber from KOF 98, he would easy be top tier because he would have a DP option. He also has some of the best normals in the game and a command move that is + frame advantage on block. Clark has crazy mixup and he is not low neither.

    EX Kyo is NOT top tier'd in terms of characters. He has some good matchups against Saiki and Ash, but he is ASS against good sweep characters or just good low hitting normals(since they beat autoguard). He's B+ or A at best, Normal Kyo runs trains around the character.

    Ok so, I am about to redesign my list a little bit because of recent discovs by not just myself, but the community in terms of combos and whatnot and who I think may be the best character on the game if He is played at the highest potential(which eventually I think he will but thank you learning curve and familiarity).
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    Why don't we see what you have now according to DC's format...?! This is what most of us came up with:
    FORMAT
    The Character = Starter/Battery/Anchor
    Grade System:
    S = Best
    A+ = Exceptional
    A = Proficient
    B+ = Decent but needs serious help
    B = Turbulent
    _______________________________________________________
    The current character tier placement on each team positions are, as follows:

    King = A / S / S
    Yuri = A+ / S / S
    Duo Lon = A+ / B+ / B
    Leona = A / A / A+
    Shen = A / A+ / S
    Mature = A+ / A+ / A+
    Mai = B+ / S / A
    Terry = B / A+ / A
    Claw Iori = B+ / A / S
    Regular Kyo = A+ / S / S

    If there are in discrepencies please address them and provide additional info on the said character (I got a feeling I'm going to hear more about Claw Iori, Leona, Terry, and Duo Lon later on during this discussion - it will be a good thing if that is the case either way; the more we know, the better!)

    (The reason why Regular Kyo is on the list is because I am going present a showcase Kyo's tier place based on Havatchu's format once again - please stand by for more information.)
    Steam ID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/GDHTP | Twitch Channel: great_dark_hero
    PSN: Dark_Ice_Saiko
    KOFXIV: Kyo / Luong / Mai [Beni, MuiMui, Whip, Geese, Shun, Leona, Terry]
    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
    Come to dreamcancel.com for KOFXIV FAQS, wiki-updates, and mini-guides!

  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    My next target is Kyo Kusanagi!

    Starter:
    Mid High tier - Kyo has everything a man (or woman) could want in a fighting game such as this. A nice standard character. A ground-based projectile to help him zone. His EX HCB+K is a one frame command grab! Kyo has several SWEET anti-air options and he can EASY benefit from punishing his opponent. Kyo can come up with quite a few frame traps with his QCF+B or C if he corners his opponents and he is safe for the most part after the fact. In this position, the player can play any way he/she wants to: If you using a zoning, keep-away, and nice normal game, playing it as safe as possible(Kyo/Mai/Saiki ... Kyo/Takuma/Ash... woooo.... ya'll get the idea) - or you can play with nice dirty mix-ups and rush down with Kyo being the leading man (Kyo/Andy/Shen or Kyo/Yuri/Claw Iori) -I'm positive that you guys came up with some nasty thoughts about brutally annihilating your opponents, especially with Kyo on your team. Kyo does well with three meters but he can zap far too quickly if the player chooses to use more damaging combos - what will be left for the battery character, though? Kyo's meterless combos can help him get the job done. Kyo fits pretty well in this position. Basic BnB's include: (corner) st. C, df+D (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcf+D, rdp+B, dp+A for 304 dmg... or cr. B, cr. A, df+D (1), qcf+D~D, hcb+K for 245 dmg - just to give you insight... the latter combo is sort of mandatory to know.

    Battery:
    High tier - Kyo does have a choice - He HAS to be high tier in this position. It's guaranteed. Four meters can get you REALLY REALLY.... REALLY... REEEEEEALLY far with someone like Kyo. But... ya'll still need to be careful about your meter usage (unless the third character happens to be Shen... or Betty... or Athena... or anyone with good meter-less combos and comeback potential). So many good things to say here - Like... this? st. C, dp+C (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcb hcf+AC for 500 dmg damage and two stocks plus one guage? Hmph, why not? Or the player can steamrole the shit out of the opponent in the corner with this: st. C, df+D (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcf+B, rdp+B, dp+A (1), (DC) qcf+D, rdp+B, dp+C (1), (DC) hcb+K for 422 dmg ... and just two drives! NONE of Kyo's reversal moves are safe so the player will have to make the best reads as possible, otherwise the player can always stick to zoning them out with safe poking them to death, CVS2 style. After all, Kyo has the tools to do so - Kyo's df.D and his st.D are pretty good pokes (Kyo's st.D makes him immune to some ground-based moves momentarily). The EX DM... Orochinagi has one two (three?) frames with of start up, so it is fast, has good range... and... the air version is good for more corner juggles. Also, RDP+C has a slight invincibility start-up. The EX version of this move lasts longer and this is good for punishing mid-air opponents (you can super cancel into the air Orochinagi as well and laugh about it while you're at it).

    Anchor:
    High tier - Guaranteed. Pretty much for the same reasons stated in the the battery paragraph - many of Kyo's better combos and corner juggles need to have him launch the opponent into the air. You can still play defensively if the opponent becomes desperately aggressive - you should have some meter (Kula, Athena, or things like Andy can help Kyo with that) to do some Guard Cancels... then hit confirm into an 685 damage HD combo, like this one - s.C, df+D (2), [BC] s.C, df+D (1), qcf+D, hcb+K, (HDC) dp+A, (HDC) qcf+D, (wait) rdp+B, qcf+B, rdp+B, dp+A, (HDC) qcf+D, rdp+B, dp+C, (HDC) qcf~qcf+AC ... a.k.a, a nice two stock HD combo at that. Kyo's Neo Max is COMPLETELY unsafe on gaurd (I wonder why a lot of online players can't comprehend this...) and any decent player is guaranteed to not to fall for it. But, hey! Kyo is EXTREMELY good with punishing opponents for any mistake they make! Nice and practical. The player can use this to their advantage to set some really good, high damaging punish combos.

    Should you desire a little more insight please report here:
    http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/regular-kyo-kusanagi.164378/
    Steam ID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/GDHTP | Twitch Channel: great_dark_hero
    PSN: Dark_Ice_Saiko
    KOFXIV: Kyo / Luong / Mai [Beni, MuiMui, Whip, Geese, Shun, Leona, Terry]
    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
    Come to dreamcancel.com for KOFXIV FAQS, wiki-updates, and mini-guides!

  • MAGUNITOMAGUNITO Brokeback Lover Joined: Posts: 95
    Or the player can steamrole the shit out of the opponent in the corner with this: st. C, df+D (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcf+B, rdp+B, dp+A (1), (DC) qcf+D, rdp+B, dp+C (1), (DC) hcb+K for 422 dmg ... and just two drives!


    Thats a pretty bad combo, no reason to spend the extra drive. Just do : st. C, df+D (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcf+B, rdp+B, dp+A (1), (DC) qcb,hcf+A, hcb+K for about the same damage and 1bar1drive :)

    (and as i mentioned in the kyo thread, his commandgrab is not 1f)
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137


    Thats a pretty bad combo, no reason to spend the extra drive. Just do : st. C, df+D (1), qcf+D, rdp+B, qcf+B, rdp+B, dp+A (1), (DC) qcb,hcf+A, hcb+K for about the same damage and 1bar1drive :)

    (and as i mentioned in the kyo thread, his commandgrab is not 1f)
    Sorry. You said 4f on Kyo's EX HCB+K. As for the combo notations, I was only providing examples of Kyo's HD combo's, in spite of them not being practical. Only for the sake of show casing what Kyo CAN do... Thanks for clearing up lose ends on the Kyo forum. I'll make the following corrections in due time and post better combo for high damage (and low risk of wasting meter of course).
    Steam ID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/GDHTP | Twitch Channel: great_dark_hero
    PSN: Dark_Ice_Saiko
    KOFXIV: Kyo / Luong / Mai [Beni, MuiMui, Whip, Geese, Shun, Leona, Terry]
    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
    Come to dreamcancel.com for KOFXIV FAQS, wiki-updates, and mini-guides!

  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686
    Disagree quite a bit with it. Claw Iori is S BEING LAST because he is very meter heavy to get those 500+ combos. If anything I would put him A+/A/S in terms of where he should go. EX Iori is not S last, he's probably S/A/A+ in that order. Takuma has the best 50% drive/1 bar combo because he does 600 damage with that much meter. I think Kyo(XIII) is second behind him following a Drunk Hwa and then probably K.'

    Also, Ralf low tier with Clark? HA! No way in Hell. If Ralf had his Bomber from KOF 98, he would easy be top tier because he would have a DP option. He also has some of the best normals in the game and a command move that is + frame advantage on block. Clark has crazy mixup and he is not low neither.

    EX Kyo is NOT top tier'd in terms of characters. He has some good matchups against Saiki and Ash, but he is ASS against good sweep characters or just good low hitting normals(since they beat autoguard). He's B+ or A at best, Normal Kyo runs trains around the character.

    Ok so, I am about to redesign my list a little bit because of recent discovs by not just myself, but the community in terms of combos and whatnot and who I think may be the best character on the game if He is played at the highest potential(which eventually I think he will but thank you learning curve and familiarity).

    K'?
    XBL: NissanZaxima
    Twitter: NissanZaxima18
  • MAGUNITOMAGUNITO Brokeback Lover Joined: Posts: 95
    I tink raiden takes home the award for best 1 bar 1 drive combo by a pretty big margain heh. Also im pretty sure Hwa is 600+, especially if you are in the corner wich you have to be for takuma to get triple caddilac into super. And chin is not far behind either with 570 from cl.C ^^
  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    K'?

    Nah. Ryo can most likely be the best character on the game if played a the highest level. There are good Ryo's now like Fox and Reynald's Ryo isn't too shabby neither. However, Ryo played at the best of his abilities can easily beat every character on the game.
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • irl II Wilsonirl II Wilson Play third strike,its a good game. Joined: Posts: 422
    is there any tiers lists out atm ? can anyone link me to one ?
    "I remind you of the things you were made to forget."
    My Youtube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0T85fjkfLsfIuSPLTEkdmw
  • Hyun SaiHyun Sai Joined: Posts: 530
    is there any tiers lists out atm ? can anyone link me to one ?

    Check this link from Dreamcancel : http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1908.msg57377#msg57377
  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686
    Now that I have a little time I am going to go over the Dream Cancel tier list and give my thoughts on what I don't agree with. This isn't a royal bashing party, merely what I personally do not find accurate but my opinion could be off.

    S: Mr. Karate, Hwa, Kyo (XIII), Benimaru, Kyo (EX), Iori (EX), Takuma, Goro

    A+: Kim, Iori (Claw), Yuri, Elisabeth, Robert, Andy, Billy, Saiki, K’, Shen

    A: Duo Lon, Kensou, Chin, Kula, Joe, Mature

    B+: Leona, Ash, Vice, Athena, Ryo, Raiden, King, Terry

    B: Ralf, Clark, Mai, Maxima

    Things that instantly jump out:

    Clark: I have no idea how Clark is ranked in the bottom tier, this is the only one of the bunch that makes absolutely 0 sense to me at all. They guy may not be everything in the kitchen sink, but he is for sure nasty and needs some respect. His mixup game is sick off of his command grab with his ambigous rolls and what not... his mixups are layered too. So it is initially a left/righ where he can go LOW or GRAB. If you block the low he can canel it into his grab... so if you initially guessed right you still might be guessing.

    Goro: I love Goro, I have always considered him underrated. That being said, I don't think he should be mentioned with he other characters in the top tier. The guy has some nasty matchups that lower his value at a tourney level imo, still a great character and I dont think A+ is too farfetch'd for him.

    Minor things that jump out:

    Ralf: I have been playing Ralf for a little while now and I dont think he is on Maxima and Mai's level of bad. Sure he has his issues, but he is a great point character and doesn't need meter to do damage. It may take him a little longer to land that first hit, but when he does it is going to hurt and he will BE ON DAT ASS. He will widdle down your guard meter with his frame traps and force you to make a decision (sometimes a bad one) and when it happens more damage. Momentum is his game. I think he is at least B+ (actually B+ seems about right for him)

    Vice: Vice with meter has one of the craziest neutrals in the game by being able to convert off of pretty much any hit anywhere. She doesn't do amazing damage, but she can get 3 or 4 conversions off the most retarded confirms which equal 2 or so of someone elses in a much harder to get confirm. Caked out, you don't have to worry about high/low/grab with her you need to worry about getting hit PERIOD. Should be higher imo, at least 1 tier up.

    Kensou: Massively underrated, I think he should be in the A+ area. He has a great fireball/dp game that is very street fighter esque and some of the most annoying corner pressure. He is a character you need to play patient against but he makes players do really stupid things.

    Takuma: He seems a bit high to me, I for sure think he is a monster, especially on the ground. But he has issues with people who like to jump on him and in KOF13 the air is a huge part of it due to normals being relatively weaker AA's compared to the games past. His command grab game is still among the best though so I think he should be A+.

    Duo Lon: People need to give Mad KOF more credit, he made Duo look a lot better than he actually is. I think he made a statement that Duo isn't as bad as people initially thought, but Duo Lon's at evo got away with a lot more than they should. I still think he is a very solid point with a unorthodox neutral, but it still doesn't take away that his damage isnt great for the meter he has to waste to make it decent and that a lot of his stuff is unsafe. Not bottom tier but B+ area.

    Saiki: I firmly believe when Saiki is on top of his game he is the most frustrating thing to try and take on. I think he deserves to be up with the top tier.

    Ryo: I am with Nagato on this one and think Ryo is really underrated, he has all the tools in the game to be excellent and when played at top notch there isn't anything he can't take on almost. I dont agree he might be #1 and I don't actually think he is S tier material but rather A+ Tier. Getting hit with that overhead into super is one of the most frustrating things lol.


    THe list itself is pretty good and I agree with a lot of it. Honestly the real only head scratcher is Clark to me.

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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    Clark I would definitely place higher. He has good footsies and if he's just within mid-range he can easily put you in a 50/50 situation: You jump you run the risk of getting air grabbed or getting nailed with Gatlin' (Which is a good AA). If you stand still, he can use SAB which leads to hard knock down and he can put you in another 50/50 where you need to guess what he's going to do.

    Goro is good but he really needs to use meter to overcome bad matchups. The way Kauro used him was basically using EX roll to get through any kind of fireball zoning and land his grab. And rush them and use mindgames. He's definitely good but he requires good reading to use.

    Ralf's pressure game is amazingly good. Lacks everything else essentially.

    Ryo I've always thought was the best shoto character. Very fast invincible SRK with fast recovery, great fireball pressure that's almost completely safe and you cannot use GCR to punish him very well because of that recovery and he can bait you to waste meter like that. He does good damage, easy 25% guard damage, plus he's got parries...
    STOMP!
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    That Dream Cancel tier list did not make that much sense to me either. (What the hell is Clark AND Ralf doing down there anyway? They are MUCH better than that! And, Ryo, Mai, and ESPECIALLY King shouldn't even be that low either)! Most of us agree with the top tiers but every other character completely debatable! Regardless, now we are going to talk about Saiki!
    Saiki: I firmly believe when Saiki is on top of his game he is the most frustrating thing to try and take on. I think he deserves to be up with the top tier.

    And, this is the part where I happily explain why everyone else should think so too.

    Starter: High Tier. One of the best zoners in the game besides Athena and Joe. Seriously. The best projectile in the game: The Kiyoku no Tsuki projectile (the A version) travels at a medium speed so it is possible for Saiki to conduct a follow up after the projectile should he have a enough time... Saiki has a lot anti-air options as well. The C version of his Kiyoku can be treated as a anti-air, his DP, his Washiba Otoshi DM, and his cr.C. Saiki's D version DP has a follow-up. At three stocks and some drive meter, Saiki can batter the opponent violently thanks zoning and his teleport. Saiki can also apply some serious corner pressure (He has a air-target combo which is j.A > f.B) Saiki's B Donkey Kick is quick but the D version allow him to teleport without the use of meter. A meter-less combo's for Saiki would be like cr. B, cr. B, cr. B > qcb + B or Hop D, cl. C or D > qcb + D HOLD C > dp + B... A good meter-less corner combo for about 336 damage would be to start off with the air target combo (j.A > f.B) then press cl. C > qcb + D HOLD D, air b+B (land) dp + D HOLD D. This way you can catch your opponent off guard and build meter while conducting some good damage - part of the reason why he should be high tier. Saiki would probably fit best in this position.


    Battery: High Tier. For the same reasons mentioned above. You notice that Saiki has very good DM's, all of which can serve a specific purpose: Washiba Otoshi is a anti-air. Yami Otoshi is a air DM that can follow the opponent and goomba-stomp them. Saiki also has a projectile DM (that does not seem to let the opponent guard cancel until the very last hit because the hits registers so quickly while the opponent guards the move). Last, Saiki has another DM which is a command grab. Saiki also has a decent Neo Max, but it would not be a good idea to use it by itself and use it in a combo instead. It is possible to do over 1000 damage with his HD combo, the second reason why he is noteworthy in this game. For three meters, you can do this for 1006 j.D, s.D, (HD) s.D, qcb+D~C, dp+B, (HDC), qcf+C, qcb+D~D, air b+B, qcb+B, (HDC) qcf+C, qcb+D~D, air b+B, dp+B, (HDC) qcf+C, qcb+D~D, air qcf~qcf+B, (HDC) Neomax (THIS IS A CORNER COMBO EXAMPLE). For one stock Saiki can do a hopping D into cl. C > qcb + D HOLD C, qcf(x2) + B or D for 377 damage or use his air target combo into cl. C > qcb + BD HOLD D, air b+B, qcf + A, dp + D HOLD D for 426 as a good corner combo. Saiki has a lot of good combo opportunities from both the mid-screen and in the corner. Saiki's moves can fit into a huge variety of situations, but he is still recommended for first position while battery's like Andy, Kyo, Yuri, Mai or things like Kensou can do a magnificent job in the battery position.


    Anchor: High Mid Tier. Saiki's special moves aren't exactly safe here and as I said before, he really needs reliability on his zoning to smack his opponent around. The reason why he is lowered in this particular position is because he has no characters to back him up. This is going to happen to a lot of characters in this position save for about eight or nine others that may do well in this position *Shen and (Claw) Iori nod their head at you as you walk by...*
    Saiki special moves are going to require good timing so that he can keep himself safe (because he is unsafe after most of them anyhow). Saiki's A version Kiyoku has a very nice and beautiful hit box so PLEASE don't hesitate to use it when necessary. You can also keep yourself from getting anti-airs by using f.B in mid-air to stop yourself and put yourself on the ground. A nice tool for mix-ups, mind games, and valuable set-ups. While five stock meters are not particularly a bad idea for Saiki, he is still the last character - should you still intend to use HD combo's here is a good one for 963 damage... start off with his air target combo and then cl. C (HD) cl. C > (qcb + D~D, air b+B, dp + B, HDC, qcf + C)x2, qcb + D HOLD D, air b+B, dp + D (HDC) qcb + D HOLD D, air qcf(x2) B or D (MAX CANCEL) qcb hcf + AC for a nice finisher. Saiki is still recommended for first position.
    Steam ID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/GDHTP | Twitch Channel: great_dark_hero
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    KOFXIV: Kyo / Luong / Mai [Beni, MuiMui, Whip, Geese, Shun, Leona, Terry]
    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
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    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero It's time for Halloween. Where dem succubus functions? Joined: Posts: 3,137
    That Dream Cancel one is what Havatchu presented on the last page. This the tier list I made from the same guidelines but based on the information that we have discovered and spoke about:
    King = A / S / S
    Yuri = A+ / S / S
    Duo Lon = A+ / B+ / B
    Leona = A / A / A+
    Shen = A / A+ / S
    Mature = A+ / A+ / A+
    Mai = B+ / S / A
    Terry = B / A+ / A
    Claw Iori = B+ / A / S
    Regular Kyo = A+ / S / S

    After a week or so there been a change of opinion:
    Leona is now this: = A / A+ / A+ (She can basically get away with the same thing in her battery position as she could in her anchor position).
    Claw Iori is now this: = A / A+ / S (Claw DOES have good meter-less combo's and his EX HCB - K goes through a lot of projectiles and he still has a nice option select command throw after a jump-in and does a lot of damage - Iori's BnB's are rather simple much like King's are and he can get some very good resets off of his own combos as well for continuity purposes. He has a very nice Neo Max as well.
    Mai is now this = B / S / A+ (Mai's would only be playing keep-away and using punish BnB's in the first position unless the match up is in her own favor. While in the battery and anchor she can get away with a lot more and she is far scarier in the last two positions. With meter, her EX moves will set the opponent up for juggle and they are rather simple to hit confirm into as her normals have ludicrous priority).
    Mature is now this = A+ / S / A+ (Mature has a very large set of moves for many situations. She fits in very good in the battery position as well because she has a back-up character, she can be played in many ways, and... her hit confirms are RIDICULOUS. Her attacks are also easy to conduct a follow up after and she has many options after most of her attacks and very good resets).

    Everything else remains the same.

    Added Saiki:
    Saiki = S / S / A
    Betty = A+ / A+ / +

    Betty will be elaborated on in the near future.

    Steam ID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/GDHTP | Twitch Channel: great_dark_hero
    PSN: Dark_Ice_Saiko
    KOFXIV: Kyo / Luong / Mai [Beni, MuiMui, Whip, Geese, Shun, Leona, Terry]
    DOA5LR: Nyotengu [Mai]
    Tekken 7: Jin [Xiaoyu, Eliza, M. Raven, Lee, Lars]
    BBCF: Hakumen[Azaerl, Nine, Izayoi]
    SFV : ??? (Cammy, Menat, Ryu, Bison, Ibuki)
    Come to dreamcancel.com for KOFXIV FAQS, wiki-updates, and mini-guides!

  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,239
    Cafe ID interview, the list their top 5 and bottom 5
    http://dreamcancel.com/2012/07/21/dream-cancel-interviews-cafeid-kofxiii-players/
    How balanced do you all think KoFXIII is? In your opinions, who are the 5 strongest and 5 weakest characters in the game? Please elaborate on why you think these characters are strong/weak.
    Mad KOF : Kim, Shen, and Mr. Karate are considered high-tier characters here. Cafe:Id members just don’t play Mr.Karate because they think he’s not fun to play. Cafe:Id members usually choose fun characters to play, not strong characters. Guts and Verna also chose EX-Iori because he’s fun to play. In this case, EX-Iori is strong as well. KoFXIII is really well balanced. If you put your time and effort into any characters, they can be strong, except Robert and Athena (they just suck…).
    My top 5: Mr. Karate, Benimaru , Kim, King, EX-Iori. They’re strong in any order with / without meters. Therefore, I feel that they don’t have counters.
    Lacid : Top 5 – Yuri, Kim, Mr.Karate, King, and Shen. They all have strong normal moves and special moves.
    Verna: Top 5 – Kim, Chin, Shen, King, ex-Iori. These characters have strong HD combos, mix-ups, and normal moves.
    GUTS: Top 5 – Vice, EX-Iori, Kim, Mr.Karate, Saiki. They have strong combos and normal moves.
    Pikachu: Top 5 – Chin, Duo Lon, Yuri, Kim, King. They have strong mix-up games.
    Kensouzzang: Top 5 – Saiki, Billy, Shen, Vice, Mr.Karate. Strong normal moves, easy to hit confirm, and good combos.
    Id’s 1st Man: Top 5 – Mature , Billy, Shen, Yuri, EX-Iori. Strong normals.
    Cafe:Id: We feel that the bottom 5 are Athena, Robert, Elisabeth, Ash, and Mai. They need meters to be strong, and they may have some counters.
    I agree with Robert, Ash and Mai being relatively weak.
    You did not go back in time, this is how the forums look.
    "You are all just as bad as the people you hate. You're only interested in characters based on tears." - Since1717
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  • joeyjeremiahjoeyjeremiah Joey Jeremiah, Esq., at your service. Joined: Posts: 51
    Robert being weak is some serious bullshit. Robert has everything. Every tool you could possibly want on a character.

    Hitconfirms out the ass both high and low.
    Command crossup that can also be used for ultra speed like Iori/Kyo/Athena.
    Wall jump.
    Fireballs.
    DPs.
    Air and ground divekicks.
    Command grabs.

    I saw that shit last night and loled. Loaded up Robert in practice mode with the goal of finding a good 1 meter 1 drive. Got 445 damage out of him in the first 5 minutes. There's better damage out there but with the amount of tools Robert has it's a small price to pay. At the very least he's a great point.

    Cafe ID said they thought Billy was shit until Bala rocked them, so I'm not putting much stock in their "Robert is shit" analysis.
  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    Robert being weak is some serious bullshit. Robert has everything. Every tool you could possibly want on a character.

    Hitconfirms out the ass both high and low.
    Command crossup that can also be used for ultra speed like Iori/Kyo/Athena.
    Wall jump.
    Fireballs.
    DPs.
    Air and ground divekicks.
    Command grabs.

    I saw that shit last night and loled. Loaded up Robert in practice mode with the goal of finding a good 1 meter 1 drive. Got 445 damage out of him in the first 5 minutes. There's better damage out there but with the amount of tools Robert has it's a small price to pay. At the very least he's a great point.

    Cafe ID said they thought Billy was shit until Bala rocked them, so I'm not putting much stock in their "Robert is shit" analysis.

    Entirely agreed, Robert is one of the most slept on characters for sure.

    Isn't he the only character with a walljump?
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