KoF13 Tier List Discussion

YorKeYYorKeY Suffer like G did...Joined: Posts: 7,250
edited August 2013 in King of Fighters XIII
im not a tier whore or anything i just wanted to know where i can find a tier list just to see where all the characters stand. i mean, i don't even have KoF13 but i play KoF98 at a pretty decent level and im barley getting back into the scene here in Cali. im getting it this Friday. I see a lot of kula and K in tournaments, are they like iori 98 Jr's. or what. Lol
Post edited by YorKeY on
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  • S-BladeS-Blade enigmatic longsword Joined: Posts: 223
    there isn't anything close to a set tier list yet because the characters are really balanced. this game has probably 2 tiers and then like 3 or 4 characters just a bit outside that

    in case you're still curious, the characters higher on the top part of tier list would be say daimon, ex iori, hwa jai, and as for who's at the bottom, you're going to have a hard time figuring that one out.... only character i'm confident is even in the lower third is terry
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  • AlenthAlenth Joined: Posts: 560
    http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-does-everyone-think-of-b-a-l-a-and-romances-tier-chart.152619/#post-6516299

    Tier list made by some top players (2 months ago) maybe it will give you an idea, anyways the game seems pretty balanced as you can see in some recent events.
    VF5: Sarah, P4U: Elizabeth, Aigis, KOF XIII: Elizabeth, Clark, Kyo.
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    I don't have the links but there were tier lists made by Japanese players such as Mari that make much, much, much more sense than Bala/Answer's tier chart.

    Personally for me, the only way to make a tier chart is based on meterless bnb damage output (meaning Mai, Leona would be low tier.)
    In regards to actual tools, everyone is quite fleshed out and could hold ground. So while Mai and Leona may have lower damage output meterlessly, if they play on point, there is no reason they should lose to a character like Claw Iori at all even with larger damage differentials. They have to force a few more errors but the match should favor them in regards to the available tools.
  • S-BladeS-Blade enigmatic longsword Joined: Posts: 223
    yeah honestly, I don't like to publicly put people on blast (especially on stream), but bala/answer's tier list that was linked is completely fraudulent. like I don't even want to get started on how bad.....

    yeah, i agree that meterless bnb damage is a really important factor that is really overlooked, because you can use one bar to GCR right and earn a punish if you're smart and know how to do this "correctly" (no "top" players people are seeing on stream are doing this liberally yet AFAIK). also, if you have a character with low meterless on anchor with two amazing batteries that are playing well and not getting rushed down, then it can become close to being a non-factor for that anchor--they can have enough meter to GC and combo hard too. EXes that are used outside of combos to score damage when it's not guaranteed can be another factor as well.

    but toolset (mainly normals but specials can often cover weaknesses of normals) is still most important. which is why leona does not belong near the bottom of a KOF13 tier list IMO
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  • YorKeYYorKeY Suffer like G did... Joined: Posts: 7,250
    Yeah Bala's and the answers Tier list is ehhhh.
    i heard XIIIan is making one with his friend forgot his name
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  • rcorporonrcorporon Joined: Posts: 533
    Isn't this game still a bit too new to have a definitive tier list yet?
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  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    Isn't this game still a bit too new to have a definitive tier list yet?
    Yes.

    If people want a better chart, here's this one: http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trng3jmk5p765kfb8cg278l53jnp9fgk5de78bfk6bhl3zda7iei3yd45dh762oc7jnp6z956wbz3seg9g8r5cef7ea19ikf5mcn6rlp7d654wit5zg04tb68o6yaid39hig35ng48p02rml36-bkf-naitimu_mari

    I don't think it's perfect but I have very little to disagree with on this one. Tier compression is sound. It's how I felt, "everyone is high tier." Even Ash at the bottom of the list is still an A tier character. I feel he mainly just lacks both meterless damage output and damage output in general, which reflects what I said about tier placement and damage. Characters with the best utilities will be top, followed by characters with damage.

    By the way, this was made by Mari (a high level 02um Japanese player.)
  • phoenixnlphoenixnl Joined: Posts: 642
    By the way, this was made by Mari (a high level 02um Japanese player.)
    I wonder what made him put Leona so high.
  • YorKeYYorKeY Suffer like G did... Joined: Posts: 7,250
    U hhave something against her? Lol
    I wonder what made him put Leona so high.
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  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    Yes.

    If people want a better chart, here's this one: http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trng3jmk5p765kfb8cg278l53jnp9fgk5de78bfk6bhl3zda7iei3yd45dh762oc7jnp6z956wbz3seg9g8r5cef7ea19ikf5mcn6rlp7d654wit5zg04tb68o6yaid39hig35ng48p02rml36-bkf-naitimu_mari

    I don't think it's perfect but I have very little to disagree with on this one. Tier compression is sound. It's how I felt, "everyone is high tier." Even Ash at the bottom of the list is still an A tier character. I feel he mainly just lacks both meterless damage output and damage output in general, which reflects what I said about tier placement and damage. Characters with the best utilities will be top, followed by characters with damage.

    By the way, this was made by Mari (a high level 02um Japanese player.)

    I kinda agree with this one. But I think Shen should be more on the left side since he gets blown up by most grapplers. Other than that, I do agree that EX Iori is the best overall character. He can play any position, which is claw Iori's flaw even thought he does more damage. Iori with fireball is just too good.
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • phoenixnlphoenixnl Joined: Posts: 642
    U hhave something against her? Lol
    No I'd like to play here. Her meterless damage output (and even low meter) is just very very very depressingly low. Making her only really effective as an anchor
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,239
    You did not go back in time, this is how the forums look.
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  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686

    Thanks for posting.

    Personally I think Claw Iori should be in tier 2 (holds up flame shield), Kula should be in tier 2, Kim DEFINITELY tier 2 and possibly tier 1, I havent tried Leona.... so I would like to see if she is really worse than Vice (I think Vice is pretty bad compared to the rest of the cast... one of the worst. However, this game is ridiculously balanced so every character is viable so it doesnt really matter).

    I hope to explore more characters in depth and get a chance to make my own list one day. One step at a time though.
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  • tastylumpiatastylumpia the anti hero Joined: Posts: 1,417
    Claw Iori's only notable weakness is lame, and when he has two bars you really can't throw a fireball, or whiff anything, a MM on reaction will take a free 30% plus hard KD, which is scary considering his mixup options.

    Vice is not that bad (not great either), the fact that she can confirm a sleeve into HD off AA/air-to-air makes her decent enough.
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  • Dark RadianceDark Radiance MNS Azula Joined: Posts: 1,307
    I kinda agree with this one. But I think Shen should be more on the left side since he gets blown up by most grapplers. Other than that, I do agree that EX Iori is the best overall character. He can play any position, which is claw Iori's flaw even thought he does more damage. Iori with fireball is just too good.

    Umm Claw Iori can be played in position as well. He can still do decent damage without using too much resources. The character actually has a lot more going for him than EX Iori does. EX Iori is a very complete jack of all type characters, but I feel like Kyo does that better than he does.
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  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686
    Yea claw with meter is pretty much amazing because he can negate his weakness to the lame game. So I suppose I would throw him back into tier 1. Lol I flip flop so much in this game.

    Regarding Vice... confirming off an A-A or a AA is nifty and all, but pretty much every character has something going for them which makes them considered good. I just feel Vices shtick doesnt make up for the rest of what she lacks compared to the rest of the cast. This game is remarkably balanced though, so being "bad" still means you are a pretty good and viable character. I just think Vice ranks among the worst in the game.

    Can anyone point out why people think so poorly of Leona? Honest question. I literally havent used or played that character at all so I have no idea what she does or doesnt do. What is it about her that would make her stand out as the solo worst in the game?
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  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    Umm Claw Iori can be played in position as well. He can still do decent damage without using too much resources. The character actually has a lot more going for him than EX Iori does. EX Iori is a very complete jack of all type characters, but I feel like Kyo does that better than he does.

    That meter disappears when using him too, if put on point, you have to make sure claw takes out at least 2 chars for him to be profitable. On point with claw is somewhat suicide especially against zoners since he starts with no meter. He can play any position well, but as anchor he's easily one of the best in the game. I know this by a lot of experience. I only start claw iori against characters that have to rush me like clark. Claw Iori against K' is a nono on point for obvious reasons. As for EX Iori and Kyo, Kyo imo is the best char on the game since he has 100%'s. I think thats his win against ex iori as the best overall character. I know there is more detail to why Kyo is so good, but thats my reason why I think he's better than ex iori on any team. His combos are piss easy. As for EX Iori, he has a 100% but its pretty difficult to pull off in an actual match, while kyo's 80-100%'s are fairly easy.
    Yea claw with meter is pretty much amazing because he can negate his weakness to the lame game. So I suppose I would throw him back into tier 1. Lol I flip flop so much in this game.

    Regarding Vice... confirming off an A-A or a AA is nifty and all, but pretty much every character has something going for them which makes them considered good. I just feel Vices shtick doesnt make up for the rest of what she lacks compared to the rest of the cast. This game is remarkably balanced though, so being "bad" still means you are a pretty good and viable character. I just think Vice ranks among the worst in the game.

    Can anyone point out why people think so poorly of Leona? Honest question. I literally havent used or played that character at all so I have no idea what she does or doesnt do. What is it about her that would make her stand out as the solo worst in the game?

    she has no real problems in my opinion, other some rather unsafe stuff, and she can be rushed down hard even though she has a more than decent DP. I found that all the Leona's I have played try to mindgame with her. Which is fine and you have to do so with every character, but they get out played easy for no reason? I might hit the lab with her and see what is her deal. From what I know her meterless damage is bad, but thats all I can think of now really. Her green orb thing can get beat easily by sweeps or baiting it and her ear ring loses to any ex fireball so its not optional for trying use in that fireball war. I have seen some MAD_KoF uploads of some guys in Korea using her fairly well with instant overheads into good damage. I'm not saying people are sleeping on her, but she really needs you to understand what she has and for you to fully utilize footsies and wakeup yomi to win. With that said, it only shows how balanced KOF is because if it comes down to footsies and whatnot, it's all about the player, not the character.
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    I don't understand why everyone White Knight's about Leona. Any time someone says she's bad, about 40 people come to her rescue.

    She's low-tier. Deal with it. She garbage? Maybe not. But compared to the rest of the cast? Yeah, she's low. It happens. Move on and quit judging tier-lists based on where they put Leona.

    And before you ask, why yes, I DO main her.
  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686
    Where does everyone rank Kim? I think he is really high up there to be honest.
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  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    Bala says he's around mid. If I made a tier list, I would put kim about tier 2 on "has problems" because he struggles against zoners so bad that its not funny. Talk about playing mario brothers with him sheesh >_>
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • josh99josh99 Joined: Posts: 73
    struggles against zoners... I've heard it all now.
  • Hyun SaiHyun Sai Joined: Posts: 530
    Well, did Bala just won the last Power Up with Joe and Leona ?
  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    Well, did Bala just won the last Power Up with Joe and Leona ?
    All characters are good, it's just some have better fundamentals than others. Bala even said himself that he felt that all characters are really good when Jwong asked him for a tier list.
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,239
    You did not go back in time, this is how the forums look.
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    Tier list is all over the fucking place and no one can agree on anything. This could be the most balanced fighter of the decade.
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  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    Tier list is all over the fucking place and no one can agree on anything. This could be the most balanced fighter of the decade.

    However, they all agree to an extent that Leona is the least strongest character. By all means it does not mean she is bad neither. I agree this maybe the most balanced in a bit. SSF4(normal version, not AE or AE2012) was crazy balanced too with 4 characters tying for "top" and there still were plenty 5-5 matchups ranging from mid to the top 4. I think this game is similar to that scenario. Benimaru shits on a lot of characters, but he can get shat on as well.
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    Actually no, Leona is not weak and she has some very interesting tech that sets her apart. Bala was raping everyone with her. She has some devastating overhead pressure into massive damage and she can zone and bait you to jump at her and nail you with her air super.
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  • DarkGeneralDarkGeneral Joined: Posts: 4,424
    Actually no, Leona is not weak and she has some very interesting tech that sets her apart. Bala was raping everyone with her. She has some devastating overhead pressure into massive damage and she can zone and bait you to jump at her and nail you with her air super.

    The thing about the "worst character" in kof13 is that no one feels clearly weaker than the rest of the cast since everyone has a few things that are very effective. I think Leona, Mai, Ash, Terry and Chin are commonly perceived as "not as good as the rest of the mid tier characters" which leads them to getting singled out for potential low tier candidacy. Even though I believe there isn't a big difference between say Leona compared to Athena or Ryo.
  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    Actually no, Leona is not weak and she has some very interesting tech that sets her apart. Bala was raping everyone with her. She has some devastating overhead pressure into massive damage and she can zone and bait you to jump at her and nail you with her air super.

    Thats what I mean. She may be considered low, but in this game "low" tier can fuck you because Low isnt really "low" lol. Also, most tiers right now are based on meterless damage. Until an actual matchup tier comes out, I probably wont buy the BS. Because K' meterless damage out of the corner is not too good neither unless you get ein trigger > f.D, which is usually used in punishes. A simple 2Bx2, ein trigger>f.B is like 142 damage. However, he is considered S probably because of his juggle anywhere properties.
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • phoenixnlphoenixnl Joined: Posts: 642
    However, he is considered S probably because of his juggle anywhere properties.
    I don't think anyone would consider him S.... In Arcade yes, not console. He received some hardcore nerfs.

    But yes, his anywhere juggles allow him to convert good damage of literally every hit he hits, and that automatically makes him more attractive than say Leona, despite having a similarly disappointing meterless damage.

    Also, these tier lists really aren't based on meterless damage. Terry is also 'not as good' because his damage WITH meter is extremely disappointing too.

    Matchup tierlists have never really dominated KOF games. Matchups, honestly, don't play as big a role as they do in 3s or sf4. Movesets and setups are a lot more homogenized, and jumps/rolls/guard cancels make it that you can get around stuff you would struggle with in other fighting games in more diverse ways. Against most characters, you can pretty much just run your game with only minor adaptations, and defending against most characters is pretty similar too.

    Oversimplification, of course. But the fact is, with 3 positions that actually have influence on the character's effectiveness, you would, technically also have to take that into account in a matchup overview, making it very hard to handle, and due to said homogeneity just less interesting than it is in other games.
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 785
    Matchup tierlists have never really dominated KOF games. Matchups, honestly, don't play as big a role as they do in 3s or sf4. Movesets and setups are a lot more homogenized, and jumps/rolls/guard cancels make it that you can get around stuff you would struggle with in other fighting games in more diverse ways. Against most characters, you can pretty much just run your game with only minor adaptations, and defending against most characters is pretty similar too.

    Oversimplification, of course. But the fact is, with 3 positions that actually have influence on the character's effectiveness, you would, technically also have to take that into account in a matchup overview, making it very hard to handle, and due to said homogeneity just less interesting than it is in other games.

    Based on my limited experience with the series, this hasn't been the case. KOF 98 and 2002 have very dominant top tiers based on matchups, for example.

    As an aside, I wish people would stop relying on that MMCafe tier list maker for this game. The presentation is cluttered and confusing, which defeats the purpose of a tier list in the first place: to provide a simple ranking of characters that reflects current understanding of a game.
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  • Bang Em BanksBang Em Banks Get everything you came for... Joined: Posts: 48
    So I guess at this point and time based on the current knowledge that is out there and being actively used within the game. I guess it is safe to say it's best to just play who you like and are most comfortable with, everyone is seemingly viable. In my humbled opinion, I think the real test will be is your team strategy and make up viable? All the tier list I've seen at this point can be heavily disputed in one way or another. You've got to love balance.
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    I think the only character that's going to take a lot of adapting and time to win with is Maxima.
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  • Nagato/Kisame1992Nagato/Kisame1992 Dat "dropped combo" feeling Joined: Posts: 667
    I think the only character that's going to take a lot of adapting and time to win with is Maxima.

    I think Ash is the same way. You put in the time and work with him, he's crazy good, look at Mr. KOF's Ash. Iirc, he's been playing ash since like kofxi and it pays off for him bigtime.
    KOF13 characters I play: Kim/Andy/Iori/Ex Iori/Joe/Shen/Ex Kyo/Hwa/Kyo/K/Ralf/Mature and the list goes on.
  • Bang Em BanksBang Em Banks Get everything you came for... Joined: Posts: 48
    I think the only character that's going to take a lot of adapting and time to win with is Maxima.
    I agree, he didn't feel very natural for me the first time I tried to open him up in training mode. Thus I never picked him again lol. He is interesting though.
    "Here come's that fighting game flava in ya' ear..."
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  • phoenixnlphoenixnl Joined: Posts: 642
    Based on my limited experience with the series, this hasn't been the case. KOF 98 and 2002 have very dominant top tiers based on matchups, for example.

    I've played my fair share of 98 and 2002, and I've seen my fair share of tierlists for that game, and never have I ever seen a matchup chart.

    In 2002, it didn't really matter who you were playing, Athena, Billy Choi was a fucking nightmare to play against. You don't need a matchup chart to know that.
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    I think Ash is the same way. You put in the time and work with him, he's crazy good, look at Mr. KOF's Ash. Iirc, he's been playing ash since like kofxi and it pays off for him bigtime.

    Haha. It reminds me of Hellpockets' saying 'Ash, still no one has figured him out!'

    I think Maxima can do well if the player using him is blessed with true Yomi Magic because as a Grappler he's the weakest of all of them in the game. And if you rely on his autoguard you WILL get blown up. Count on it.
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  • THE ANSWERTHE ANSWER KOF Legend Joined: Posts: 1,688
    So from what I'm seeing here is you put all the characters in the A-SS tiers then you start to rank them and then your tier list is more accurate. O_o?

    I really don't see how that is different than diving the characters in other groups such as B,C or even D tier, the way I see it even if all the characters are in the A-SS tiers but in the lower left side they are low tier (I know call me crazy). Bala and I were working on a new tier list but we are going to start from scratch again to meet this new "only A-SS tiers" requirements.

    Anyway as of today I find Frionel's tier list the most accurate.
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  • Rich.Rich. Joined: Posts: 268
    So from what I'm seeing here is you put all the characters in the A-SS tiers then you start to rank them and then your tier list is more accurate. o_O?

    I really don't see how that is different than diving the characters in other groups such as B,C or even D tier, the way I see it even if all the characters are in the A-SS tiers but in the lower left side they are low tier (I know call me crazy). Bala and I were working on a new tier list but we are going to start from scratch again to meet this new "only A-SS tiers" requirements.

    Anyway as of today I find Frionel's tier list the most accurate.
    Heres the tier list #1 Flame Iori, #2 Leona, #3 Shen then everybody else just because thats my team, LOL

    All bs aside though does this game even have S,A,B,C tiers? It reminds me of tekken in a way
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,239
    The letters are just markers to should there's a noteworthy "gap" between tiers.
    You did not go back in time, this is how the forums look.
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