Why do people hate defensive/keeping-it-lame strategies in FGs?

Krusiv

The main example I can think of off the top of my head is UMvC3. Everyone complains when Chris G gets on stream and does his Morrigan/Doom shenanigans. In SF people will complain that Guile/Dhalsim are "dumb characters" as if rushdown is the only way to play the game. Can someone shed some light on this?

Zeromurasame

Because rushing down and going in is prettier to look it. People would rather see someone going in, pressing buttons, and dropping a combo as opposed to someone who sits back, controls space, and wins with simple shit like pokes rather than a flashy, high damaging combo. On top of that when it comes to playing against a more defensive(lame is so derogatory) person it gets incredibly frustrating for the average auto pilot a BnB combo player. It forces you to stop actually think about how you approach things. How to get in, what are safe times to advance, how to get a knockdown, and how to keep the momentum. Basically it's anti-hype. I happen to be one of those types of players and I catch a lot(and I mean A LOT) of shit for it. That's my two cents on the whole situation. Don't know how anyone else sees it.

Meowmix

It's mostly just people whining about being forced to play against a style they're not used to. Sure, it makes for "boring" matches, but in competition, anything goes.

Tyrant Sardines II

Noobs lose to it big time, even semi decent & decent players lose to *intelligent* zoning if they don't keep themselves calm.

Hawkeye for example, his zoning is really good & it's hard but possible to get in, people really hate him though.

pherai

It's definitely less pleasant to play against than an offensive player even if you can deal with it. No reason to not play that way though if it works for you.

petran79

I assure you, they are not defensive at all. make one mistake and the whole energy is depleted.

FrostyAU

It's boring to watch (for most people) as it's slow and often times the most effective zoners hold that title due to abusive mechanics such as the Chris G infinite plasma spam due to how much meter that builds and how hard it is to get in.

A proper zoner would be a character like Sim, anyone that can lame out with him (think Arturo) deserves a certain deal of respect as his raw damage is low and he gets dizzied really quickly and is vulnerable to certain jump ins/mix ups. That is a fair trade for the ability to keep your opponent out.

To take a bad example from Marvel, Dormammu. Not only can he zone (an element the likes of CJ do not bother with), he has a very powerful rushdown/mix up game, high overall damage and a decently large amount of health. That pisses people off, not because Dormammu CAN keep people out, but because he doesn't have to unlike Dhalsim so when he does it just feels cheap.

FluffyM

I prefer watching zoning teams/characters. HERP ABC DIAL A COMBO WAAAH I CAN'T JUMP OVER ZE FIERBALLS get's old quick.

Rictorxix

I don't have a problem with turtling and playing defense, I just don't see how you can enjoy playing the game with that boring of a play style

quicks

i tend to find that its the lower level more casual players that hate it

when chris was tearing it up with his morrigan team i saw people calling him a scrub and skillless and that he only plays that way because he isnt good enough to do combos, etc etc

then you get the guys saying"if i wanted to shoot stuff i'd play cod"


I actually like playing this sorta player , you need to think much much more and it's satsifing as hell when you get in a dominate

Krusiv

Rictorxix, post: 6664093, member: 55790 wrote:

I don't have a problem with turtling and playing defense, I just don't see how you can enjoy playing the game with that boring of a play style

It isn't boring for the people that enjoy the playstyle... they wouldn't enjoy it if it was boring to them. Just like how some players prefer rushdown.

Vulpes

I don't see how anyone could enjoy rushdown; dashing twice then mashing buttons wildly and running dicerolls on the opponents wakeup.. zzz boring

Most people however prefer this.. and if they meet someone that kills them for doing it, forcing them to start actually playing the game, they call it lame and boring and whatever.

Being the one thing that retards hate the most can't be all too wrong. Embrace it, be happy.

Krusiv

Vulpes, post: 6664164, member: 57311 wrote:

I don't see how anyone could enjoy rushdown; dashing twice then mashing buttons wildly and running dicerolls on the opponents wakeup.. zzz boring

Lol I think that would be the equivalent of "stupid noob fireball spammer all you do is throw out random pokes blah blah" IE the hate that defensive players get.

I'll admit that I can get pretty salty when I derp and press the wrong normal, which results in my rushdown opponent getting in and killing me in 2-3 mixups. But, that kind of complaining works both ways for each playstyle. Just gotta deal with it I guess.

Cla

The only people who hate "keeping it lame" are the scrubs who don't matter anyway. These people tend to quickly make up their mind on how the game "should be" played and expect everyone and everything (as in the game itself and especially CPU opponents) around them to adhere to their own arbitrary rules based around their unwillingness to put even the slightest bit of effort into learning the game. (they also expect everyone they meet to have the psychic prowess to already know how they want the game played) Kind of like how a kid will make up their own rules when playing Hide-And-Seek with an adult so they can win more easily.

They don't respect the game, so don't respect them or their uneducated, ill-formed opinion.

Oerba

Because the only people who complain about it being unfair are stream monsters.

maziodyne

I honestly like watching a good player who can zone well (Fchamp and Dios X, for instance). to me, zoning is a thinking man's game, especially if you are playing a fragile character like Sim as mentioned above. defensive play isn't easy especially in rushdown-heavy games like Marvel, moreso if your character doesn't have many reversal/GTFO options.

sure, Viper (Marvel) is known for her high-damage combos and near-unblockable mixups, but she need not rush in blindly (especially vs certain matchups, and you may even catch an assist call) when she can control an entire match with her Seismo zoning. you need to place your Seismos correctly and make your opponent respect your EX Seismo if you have meter in order to establish your character as THE threat in the match-- and even then, just randomly doing rapid Seismos won't get you far if you just throw those out blindly.

being able to do combo videos =/= great player. the great players of any game know when to RTSD and back off/zone/footsies, controlling the entire match and forcing you to play at THEIR pace.

M.D.

To me, combos and rushdown have short-term appeal while zoning and solid keepaway has long-term. Combos can be mastered through practice and become easy to do, but no matter how skilled you are, it's not always a cakewalk to open the opponent up. That's why I find casuals to be boring; players aren't taking it seriously and take turns attempting combos on each other.

Jasin Walraven

Zoning works. Thats why people hate it. People always hates what works.

Arachnofiend

Rictorxix, post: 6664093, member: 55790 wrote:

I don't have a problem with turtling and playing defense, I just don't see how you can enjoy playing the game with that boring of a play style

Because it's fun to watch rushdown players squirm.

bitbna1

Obviously it's because people who play cheap noob zoning strategy's like Dieminion don't have the execution or skill required to play an exciting and skill based character like Viper. They have to stick to cheap characters like Guile that are built for noobs to spam with and win on day one.

^ That is how a lot of Stream Monsters and lower level thinking players feel because they don't understand what skill really is nor how Street Fighter is actually played at higher levels.

entrerix

if the average IQ is 100, then that means that half the people on the planet have less than 100 IQ.

there are a lot of stupid people in this world.

Vulpes

entrerix, post: 6666429, member: 14692 wrote:

if the average IQ is 100, then that means that half the people on the planet have less than 100 IQ.

Umm.... no? What kind of math is that?

Hatred Edge

Vulpes, post: 6666502, member: 57311 wrote:

Umm.... no? What kind of math is that?

Uh.... he's one of the people with below 100 IQ? What did you expect.

entrerix

i am only 12 and how does bell curve work?

math are bad :(

Arachnofiend

bitbna1, post: 6666421, member: 52663 wrote:

Obviously it's because people who play cheap noob zoning strategy's like Dieminion don't have the execution or skill required to play an exciting and skill based character like Viper. They have to stick to cheap characters like Guile that are built for noobs to spam with and win on day one.

^ That is how a lot of Stream Monsters and lower level thinking players feel because they don't understand what skill really is nor how Street Fighter is actually played at higher levels.

Most people just don't understand the difference between skilled play and smart play. Dieminion's zoning works because he is a damn smart player; he's so smart that he can drop combos all day erry day but get away with it because he knows exactly what to do to avoid being punished for his skill-based mistakes.

The more you slow down a game the more it looks and acts like a chess match. Funny thing about chess is that it's only fun to watch if you understand what's going on.

Havatchu

I would love to appear to be a turtle but to switch off and on at will to rushdown to control the match.

Arachnofiend

Havatchu, post: 6666877, member: 44777 wrote:

I would love to appear to be a turtle but to switch off and on at will to rushdown to control the match.

You should try playing Rachel in BlazBlue. Zoning the fuck out of you by placing lightning rods and daring you to press a button but then rushing like crazy with Silpheed shenanigans is her whole game plan.

BB Hood can kinda do this too with her fast as all hell dashes and the fast recovery on Smiling Missiles.

Havatchu

Arachnofiend, post: 6666897, member: 63086 wrote:

You should try playing Rachel in BlazBlue. Zoning the fuck out of you by placing lightning rods and daring you to press a button but then rushing like crazy with Silpheed shenanigans is her whole game plan.

BB Hood can kinda do this too with her fast as all hell dashes and the fast recovery on Smiling Missiles.

I'll keep that in mind if I ever get the game or find anyone to play it with. 8-)

Or is it Melty Blood, Arcana Heart, or the Guilty Gear series that carries that stereotype?

Mr. X

Did someone try a George Carlin joke in here?

Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

GLORYBE26OD

Havatchu, post: 6666877, member: 44777 wrote:

I would love to appear to be a turtle but to switch off and on at will to rushdown to control the match.

I agree. Both are valid fighting styles and both need to be utilized.

Vulpes

Arachnofiend, post: 6666897, member: 63086 wrote:

You should try playing Rachel in BlazBlue. Zoning the fuck out of you by placing lightning rods and daring you to press a button but then rushing like crazy with Silpheed shenanigans is her whole game plan.

Juri SF4 as well.

Generally looking for JoaT characters should fit your bill.

NickRocks

playing keepaway with sent/commando is really fun, as is laying down an obstacle course for the enemy with cable

Gomikawa

because no one likes playing against a keep away

Dark Radiance

Y'all can say scrub this, scrub that all y'all want... But no one wants to get lamed out. Anyone is going to be pissed off. Vanilla Phoenix throwing salty balls in the air all day is enough to make you wanna slam the stick. Lame out causing hate and frustration is a part of fighting games. That's what that strategy is meant to do.

bitbna1

Dark Radiance, post: 6667283, member: 38527 wrote:

Y'all can say scrub this, scrub that all y'all want... But no one wants to get lamed out. Anyone is going to be pissed off. Vanilla Phoenix throwing salty balls in the air all day is enough to make you wanna slam the stick. Lame out causing hate and frustration is a part of fighting games. That's what that strategy is meant to do.

Honestly, I disagree completely. I main Zangief in SF4 and in HDR, I deal with the majority of the people I play trying to lame me out. Patience and the ability to keep composure are both marks of a strong player. If you can't keep a clear head in a game how do you expect to even function. Understand the nature of some matchups is going to be keepaway for one of the two characters and know you are going to have to play against that, there is no need to make a fool out of yourself over a game.

Dark Radiance

bitbna1, post: 6667302, member: 52663 wrote:

Honestly, I disagree completely. I main Zangief in SF4 and in HDR, I deal with the majority of the people I play trying to lame me out. Patience and the ability to keep composure are both marks of a strong player. If you can't keep a clear head in a game how do you expect to even function. Understand the nature of some matchups is going to be keepaway for one of the two characters and know you are going to have to play against that, there is no need to make a fool out of yourself over a game.

Everything you say is true, but that's just not the way things work. People get salty even if it's just over a game. It's easy to post on a forum saying keep a level head or whatever, but when you're playing? Man things happen. Against keepaway you're always going to have that psychological war between players. You start taking a lot of chip, times running out and they have the life lead. With everything on the line, even the best players get mind fucked by it. One of the reasons why zoning is and always will be an effective strategy.

Krusiv

Havatchu, post: 6666911, member: 44777 wrote:

Or is it Melty Blood, Arcana Heart, or the Guilty Gear series that carries that stereotype?

All of the above fall under that stereotype, and it's more or less true. There's definitely less people playing bb/gg/mb/ah compared to the number of capcom players.

Great_Dark_Hero

Zeromurasame, post: 6663646, member: 31257 wrote:

Because rushing down and going in is prettier to look it. People would rather see someone going in, pressing buttons, and dropping a combo as opposed to someone who sits back, controls space, and wins with simple shit like pokes rather than a flashy, high damaging combo. On top of that when it comes to playing against a more defensive(lame is so derogatory) person it gets incredibly frustrating for the average auto pilot a BnB combo player. It forces you to stop actually think about how you approach things. How to get in, what are safe times to advance, how to get a knockdown, and how to keep the momentum. Basically it's anti-hype. I happen to be one of those types of players and I catch a lot(and I mean A LOT) of shit for it. That's my two cents on the whole situation. Don't know how anyone else sees it.

I can relate to your situation... If there was a choice between being anti-hype and winning, than being super hyped and increasing the chances of me losing, I would rather stick to BnB's, pokes, and punishes.
If players intend on winning, they need to focus on fundamentals, logic, and their choices - not aesthetics.

FinalFantasy

It's called being lame for a reason :)

Great_Dark_Hero

FinalFantasy, post: 6672630, member: 60355 wrote:

It's called being lame for a reason :)

Not that I need you to tell ME that.

FinalFantasy

Great_Dark_Hero, post: 6672713, member: 60607 wrote:

Not that I need you to tell ME that.

OH SORRY DIDNT MEAN TO OFFEND YOU MNAOIEHUHWEUFWEFWEF

Great_Dark_Hero

FinalFantasy, post: 6672760, member: 60355 wrote:

OH SORRY DIDNT MEAN TO OFFEND YOU MNAOIEHUHWEUFWEFWEF

Just shut up.

Vorkosigan

Because stream monsters will complain about anything

FinalFantasy

Great_Dark_Hero, post: 6672796, member: 60607 wrote:

Just shut up.

Lol dude, relax. Your going to be a dick so am I. I am immature like that.

Great_Dark_Hero

FinalFantasy, post: 6672810, member: 60355 wrote:

Lol dude, relax. Your going to be a dick so am I. I am immature like that.

Of course you are... And, stating the obvious in the first place helps so much, doesn't it? What exactly were you expecting?

XthAtGAm3RGuYX

I play Juri and I only zone when it's a grappler. Zangief gets kept away hard. Especially when you charge infinitely they dont know how many or which versions you've stored. Otherwise I play offensive because I like to do combos.

FinalFantasy

Great_Dark_Hero, post: 6672823, member: 60607 wrote:

Of course you are... And, stating the obvious in the first place helps so much, doesn't it? What exactly were you expecting?

I was expecting to talk about a game with some nice people. Not dbags who are just rude because they are internet warriors. Peace.

Great_Dark_Hero

FinalFantasy, post: 6672862, member: 60355 wrote:

I was expecting to talk about a game with some nice people. Not dbags who are just rude because they are internet warriors. Peace.

"Internet warrior...?" o_O That's just glorious.
If you expect to have a conversation with someone in relation to fighting games... do yourself a favor and try to prevent telling them something that is already obvious to them!

Class Real

It's the idea that a defensive player doesn't have to do much to win that creates the stigma. For example, most players (Even those who hate lame styles) have grown an appreciation for Dhalsim because a good Dhalsim is constantly active, mobile, and using pretty much every tool he's got; while Guile and Morrigan remain hated because they appear to only need to use three or four moves to do their strategy. There's more to them than that, but it's not as easy to see.

CSword123

People should really stop undermining the execution it takes to make Chris G's Morrigan/Doom combination functional. Even Dieminion admitted during a Big Two that Chris G is able to fly/cancel soul fists faster than his own Morrigan. Think about about how many things Chris needs to react to before he makes his next decision. No, i'm not fucking trolling. Just watch how he adjusts to different characters as controlled by different players. Oh yeah, and it still hasn't been a year in UMVC3, so there is plenty of tech that has yet to be developed. *cough*LOG TRAP*cough*MVC2 ICEMAN*cough*

ironboy89

Honestly Zoning/Defensive players are usually people who actually learn how to play the game then people who focus on combos/mixups. A lot of them have the skills to play footsies, block, and other useful things to be good at a fighting game.