What makes a casual game competitively popular? Why did Smash blow up?

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  • ElderGODElderGOD GOD Joined: Posts: 9,800
    After all these years, people on SRK refuse to understand how absolutely meaningless terms like "casual" are when applied to not just fighting games - but video games in general.
    The fact that many people can't differentiate between casual and competitive is a problem in itself.

    What happened to play to win?
  • zeechzeech Dismember Joined: Posts: 578
    After all these years, people on SRK refuse to understand how absolutely meaningless terms like "casual" are when applied to not just fighting games - but video games in general.

    The word does have a meaning - but its subtle and depends on context. Since it varies from conversation to conversation, simple minded people prefer to think it's meaningless ;)

    In this context, the difference between casual and competitive/hardcore is the intentions of the developer. A "competitive" game would be making at least a token effort to support the needs of a competitive community, either by patching balance issues, or including tournament/competition friendly features, etc. Or even just the stated vision of the developer. If they say, "oh, this is just a fun game for kids, our primary intention is not competitive play," then there you go.

    So one could say that recent fighting games have been "casual-ized" by tournament unfriendly features such as DLC/unlockable characters, gems and so forth.


    As an example, in a different context I describe myself as "casual" FG player. This is because I don't practice very much and don't care about winning. However, since I attend offline tournament events ("for fun") and mash buttons and beat other low-skilled players, this makes me considerably more "hardcore" when compared to the majority of the population. So yeah, "casual" means different things at different times, and you have to use your brain to work out what people are trying to say.
  • Kinniku BusterKinniku Buster KIMO! KIMO! KIMO! Joined: Posts: 9,357
    Smash Bros Melee is actually an amazing fighting game. Those who hate on it don't have a damn clue and are biased as heck.
    Not even remotely true. I went to plenty of tournaments that varied in scale (locals, regional, states, EVO) with friends and I still dislike the series as a whole.
    Smash 64 was good
    I don't like Melee but I respect the technically of it. It has a very steep learning curve if you want to play at top level.
    Metaknight Brawl was horrible for more reasons that just my hilarious jab at the name.
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  • KassandraNovaKassandraNova ☆Classy☆Kassy☆ Joined: Posts: 2,080
    I think it has a lot to do with the simplicity of the game. It's easier for most people to play than traditional fighters. When you make a game fairly simple and easy, then you're bound to get tons of people who think that they're really amazing at the game when theyre not. That happens to a lot of people transitoning from casual games to a more competative scene, you can get these types of people for any game game. But since smash is so simple and easy to understand at first, there are a lot more of these "people" that can pop up. I'm talking about people with top player attitudes and scrub results. Smash has tons of these types of people. Haha.
    Also think about the characters, Nintendo characters that everyone loves, that's bound to attract tons of people to a game no matter what. Omg I get to play link? I've been playing Zelda games forever! Herp durp!
    If people dont love their characters then they're not going to play the game or put time into it. Or build a scene.
    People who love Nintendo characters, hm they're gamers right? Love to play games ect, that's expected, put all their characters into a game and they'll play it. Naruto, DBZ fans, what do they do? Make memes, draw Hentai, and maybe play a bit of a fighting game with their characters, but most of them are otaku and anime is their primary interest, not gaming.
    Melee was a great game, brawl was a half assed game. It was half assed and still sold because of what? The mechanics of the game? No. The characters. The love for the characters. :0
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  • zeechzeech Dismember Joined: Posts: 578
    I
    People who love Nintendo characters, hm they're gamers right? Love to play games ect, that's expected, put all their characters into a game and they'll play it. Naruto, DBZ fans, what do they do? Make memes, draw Hentai, and maybe play a bit of a fighting game with their characters, but most of them are otaku and anime is their primary interest, not gaming.

    Ah, that's a great point! I didn't realise this, although it seems obvious now that you've pointed it out :D
  • XtraKurrikulaXtraKurrikula Capcom pugilist with the IQ of a computer whizz Joined: Posts: 344
    Did smash bros blow up? I must of missed that, where are all the Smash bros players at?
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  • Kinniku BusterKinniku Buster KIMO! KIMO! KIMO! Joined: Posts: 9,357
    Did smash bros blow up? I must of missed that, where are all the Smash bros players at?
    melee still gets bigger turn outs than any fighting game at evo that isn't SFIV or UMvC3
    People who love Nintendo characters, hm they're gamers right? Love to play games ect, that's expected, put all their characters into a game and they'll play it. Naruto, DBZ fans, what do they do? Make memes, draw Hentai, and maybe play a bit of a fighting game with their characters, but most of them are otaku and anime is their primary interest, not gaming.
    Gross over exaggeration of an anime fan.
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  • XtraKurrikulaXtraKurrikula Capcom pugilist with the IQ of a computer whizz Joined: Posts: 344
    Wow Smash bros is basic imo but whatever, biggest game after SF n Marvel thats kinda sad. Next you'll be telling me people are still fist fighting competitively in GTA4 online
    Shaq Fu - Beast
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  • Kinniku BusterKinniku Buster KIMO! KIMO! KIMO! Joined: Posts: 9,357
    Wow Smash bros is basic imo but whatever, biggest game after SF n Marvel thats kinda sad. Next you'll be telling me people are still fist fighting competitively in GTA4 online
    Your trolling attempts are really weak.

    As for your other question. All the smash brothers players have their own forum called Smashboards.
    Despite how much SRK and its members think it, SRK is not the central hub for competitive gaming.
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  • the7kthe7k Kitty Pride. Joined: Posts: 5,573
    It depends. Are other games intended to be casual fighters as unintentionally deep as Smash? I know Power Stone is pretty shallow, as are FG cash-ins like TMNT Smash-Up and Shaq-Fu, but I don't know about the DBZ and Naruto games.

    Fact is, in addition to being popular on its own account, SSBM is an exceptionally deep game, one that can be played for ten years, and people are still finding new tactics to abuse, and new counters for the new abusable tactics. There's a depth to this on level with Guilty Gear, MvC2, Third Strike and Darksiders. It also helped that there was a highly motivated and deeply passionate community driving the game's growth.

    And I'm probably going to be flamed for saying this on this particular forum, but MLG did a lot for the Smash community. MLG 04 through 06 gave competitive Melee a lot of exposure and set the tone for just about every Melee tournament that followed.
    I didn't realize Darksiders was a competitive game. Granted, I only played it for a little while, but it just seemed like a Zelda clone to me. /trollin'

    Personally, I think it all depends on the players. The players are influenced by a lot of different factors because all players are different. Some folks want a strong game with solid mechanics and depth. Some folks just want to play as their favorite Nintendo characters. If depth and solid mechanics were the sole factor for a game having a large competitive scene, then Virtua Fighter would be the biggest fighter in our scene.

    Considering cross-over games are almost always the most hyped-up fighters, even when some are objectively bad games, I think it's safe to say characters are a far bigger influence on getting players in than having a solid game - and as long as there are players who take the game seriously, there will be a scene for the game.
    "Comebacks are fine as long as I'm the one doing them. Otherwise, they are evidence of a broken, poorly balanced game and it's all because of poor netcode and in-game lag due to poor port optimization and it was a terrible matchup and they need to patch the game and I should have won that and why does anyone even play this awful, fraud friendly game."
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,711
    isnt darksiders a single player action adventure game?

    lol what the fuck. someone help me out here. metal gear solid is 'deep' too but not in a way that you can really compare to a fighting game...
    Play more.
  • zeechzeech Dismember Joined: Posts: 578
    Maybe he meant Darkstalkers?


    As for smash, I've always found it interesting - at our FG events, smash is pretty big and occupies pretty much 1/3 - half of the turnout. But they are such a seperate group that never mingles with the others. Whereas people who play SF/KOF/etc will generally hang out and even dabble in each others' games, it always seems like the smash crowd is rather hostile despite turning up to the same event.
  • ric0ric0 Pretty cool Guy Joined: Posts: 466
    SSBM is definitely not basic and not easy to play, whether it was intended to be that way or not.

    I think what really makes a competitive fighting game is the hype it generates.
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  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,699
    The word does have a meaning - but its subtle and depends on context. Since it varies from conversation to conversation, simple minded people prefer to think it's meaningless ;)

    In this context, the difference between casual and competitive/hardcore is the intentions of the developer. A "competitive" game would be making at least a token effort to support the needs of a competitive community, either by patching balance issues, or including tournament/competition friendly features, etc. Or even just the stated vision of the developer. If they say, "oh, this is just a fun game for kids, our primary intention is not competitive play," then there you go.

    So one could say that recent fighting games have been "casual-ized" by tournament unfriendly features such as DLC/unlockable characters, gems and so forth.


    As an example, in a different context I describe myself as "casual" FG player. This is because I don't practice very much and don't care about winning. However, since I attend offline tournament events ("for fun") and mash buttons and beat other low-skilled players, this makes me considerably more "hardcore" when compared to the majority of the population. So yeah, "casual" means different things at different times, and you have to use your brain to work out what people are trying to say.


    You respond to me with an insult? An ironic one at that.

    You're a fucking idiot. You acknowledge the fluidity of language in your thesis and on that merit, attempt to construct an argument that calcifies its potential in an intelligent discussion. Tell me; should I build my igloo in the Great Basin or the Sahara?

    Obviously, the word "casual" has meaning(s); my point was to dismiss the FGC's usage of it completely, because when trying to analyze the current phenomena regarding the industry's market demographics, and more specifically, fighting game demographics; the term is fucking worthless for the very reason your thesis states. The word is too relative to be used in any intelligent discussion. People can be "casual" about anything and anything can be "casual". In the context of an intelligent discussion, it is effectively meaningless. I could be "casually hardcore" if I wanted. People in the FGC lean towards using it dismissively, because from their standpoint, "casual" is antithetical to competitive and is worthy of derision.

    The "Competitiveness" of a thing is something that can, more or less, be actually quantified: you simply measure the amount of humans competing in its regard. That was my point. Only simple-minded ingrates would care to call something strictly "casual" when there are known humans that exist, playing said-game competitively. People can call the Smash series "casual" all they want - it doesn't change the fact that people pack convention halls and hotels to play these games competitively, in effect, making them competitive games.

    Developer intentions are meaningless as are the mechanics a game houses. Most games - not just videogames - are not developed with strict intentions to comply with established competitive values. The most popular games, especially. The sport of football isn't any less competitive at the professional level due to the fact that fat Americans across the country toss the pigskin around casually on Saturday afternoons. Competitiveness is a socio-psychological concept, not a strict, mathematically determined one.


    It's a war with perception. I often find SRK posters lose those battles.
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  • Kinniku BusterKinniku Buster KIMO! KIMO! KIMO! Joined: Posts: 9,357
    SSBM is definitely not basic and not easy to play, whether it was intended to be that way or not.

    I think what really makes a competitive fighting game is the hype it generates.
    That was great. :lol:
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  • ric0ric0 Pretty cool Guy Joined: Posts: 466
    Glad you liked it, it's one of my favorites.
    "I always get rico and honzo confused because they're both like, little gingers... with a beret." -anon
  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,039
    any game that people want to play competitively can be a competitive game. yeah you can play Mario Party competitively, but it's pretty luck-based and you'll have a hard time growing a community of people that wants to play the game competitively or organize any kind of tournament scene.

    whether it's a FG is a silly side argument and it doesn't matter at all. It's closer to FGs than any other genre. but who cares? SFxT can more properly be called a FG and everyone hates it. how you classify it has nothing to do with how competitive it is or how fun it is.
  • zeechzeech Dismember Joined: Posts: 578
    The "Competitiveness" of a thing is something that can, more or less, be actually quantified: you simply measure the amount of humans competing in its regard. That was my point. Only simple-minded ingrates would care to call something strictly "casual" when there are known humans that exist, playing said-game competitively. People can call the Smash series "casual" all they want - it doesn't change the fact that people pack convention halls and hotels to play these games competitively, in effect, making them competitive games.

    You're still missing the point. You're probably angry because "casual" is used in a dismissive way most of the time, and you would prefer it not to be.

    But that's a side issue - the word is still useful as an adjective to describe things. Smash is not the same as Street Fighter. Naruto is not the same as Guilty Gear, etc. There are differences in goals, target audience and design that are undeniably real. How to capture and describe those differences? If I say, "casual", most people will know what I mean. My thread requires it, because I'm trying to ask why/how a game not really intended for competitive play, ends up competitive anyways. "Casual" is a simple and clear way to sum up what I mean, that people here will instantly understand.

    If I wanted to lump Powerstone, Naruto, DBZ, Smash, etc into a single category, and differentiate them from SF, GG, BB, KOF etc, what would I use? Smash could be called a "party game", but that doesnt fit for the others. "Non-competitive game"? But smash is competitive, as you just described! Naruto/DBZ are "anime games", but BB and AH gets lumped in there too, and Smash doesnt. etc, etc, etc. "Casual" is a useful word here that people will get the gist of.

    Whether I'm insulting smash or not will be evident from the context I'm using it, and it's a seperate issue entirely. It can't be helped that people here associate the word with negative characteristics. That will happen regardless of what word is used. (like how the various words for disabled people or homosexual people have changed over the years to avoid negative connotations, but the connotations eventually follow.)

    So yeah, insults depend on context as well. You should be able to figure out that I'm not using casual in a pejorative sense here.
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,699
    You're still missing the point.

    You telling me I'm missing your point isn't convincing. This is my last response to you - I'm not going to repat myself.

    But that's a side issue - the word is still useful as an adjective to describe things.

    Of course it is: but it's worthless for the purpose of our discussion and I explained why.

    Smash is not the same as Street Fighter. Naruto is not the same as Guilty Gear, etc. There are differences in goals, target audience and design that are undeniably real. How to capture and describe those differences? If I say, "casual", most people will know what I mean. My thread requires it, because I'm trying to ask why/how a game not really intended for competitive play, ends up competitive anyways. "Casual" is a simple and clear way to sum up what I mean, that people here will instantly understand.

    Whether I'm insulting smash or not will be evident from the context I'm using it, and it's a seperate issue entirely. It can't be helped that people here associate the word with negative characteristics. That will happen regardless of what word is used. (like how the various words for disabled people or homosexual people have changed over the years to avoid negative connotations, but the connotations eventually follow.)

    So yeah, insults depend on context as well. You should be able to figure out that I'm not using casual in a pejorative sense here.


    Talk about missing the point. DId you even read my response to you? I address the bolded portion, specifically.

    If your next post is responding to this post and not my last, I'm going to ignore you.

    *edit*

    I guess I addressed the "why" but not the "how". The processes don't need documentation to explain the "why", really. "How" a game becomes competitive is a function of the "why" - read: "X game became competitive via Y processes because people wanted to play X game with a competitive disposition." People play a game competitively because they want to for a variety of reasons. As much as you'd like it to be, the "why" is not purely a function of how the game is built.
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    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

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  • KassandraNovaKassandraNova ☆Classy☆Kassy☆ Joined: Posts: 2,080
    Ugh. I didn't say it was basic on a competative level, I'm saying it's easier for people to get into and feel like they're raping.
    There are still some things in melee that are pretty easy to do. Like shieks cg on herself. Lulz
    Melee is a great game that takes a lot of time to get good at, but ugh I guess what I'm trying to say is that smash is a scrub magnet. Lol
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  • darktowndarktown Darktown2 Joined: Posts: 497
    I don't exactly agree with the smash not being easy to play. I played melee for a long time with my group of friends who grew up playing the same games as I. Once I discovered years after all of these more complicated advanced tactics i was able to pull them off consistently fairly quickly could do some combinations of them with characters i didn't really use within a hour or so. I'm not trying to bash the game either i enjoyed it when I played it and still have fun even if i play it now. However when i uncovered more games like 3s and kof i kind of felt overwhelmed with the motions and such in sequences during combos it felt a lot more difficult to do consistently. Even though the example with the fox setups was a good way to show how someone could possibly do so much in a little amount of time; when i played the other games it felt like those moments were happening all the time whenever i did a combo. Just my experience. Link 4 life...
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  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,699
    A game is only as easy/hard to play as far as a player is willing to understand it. That bar is set by a player's competition. There's nothing intrinsically difficult about playing any fighting game. Fighting games are easy to play and understand relative to other genres - deplete your opponent's life bar by pressing buttons.

    In fact, most people tend to think they're good at whatever game they currently beat their friends at until they run into tournament competition - it's at that point, a fighting game tends to blossom in its complexity and execution requirements. Those players realize they had a limited understanding of the game - and most things in this universe are difficult to comprehend FULLY.
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    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

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  • t1bzt1bz Joined: Posts: 196
    I would argue that Smash "blew up" because of the simple and incredibly intuitive controls. Instead of double tapping or pressing two buttons to dash, you just slam the control stick in whatever direction you want to go and your character starts running. There is an actual jump button instead of having to tap up every time. Likewise, grabs can be accomplished with the press of a single button as opposed to having to use 2 buttons or a direction in conjunction with a button. When you need to block, you just hold a trigger button, you don't have to worry about left/right or high/low. Perhaps most importantly there are no traditional FG inputs like qcf's. All moves are produced by simply pressing one of two buttons and holding a certain direction. All of this adds up to make the game 10x easier to pick up and understand on a basic level than traditional fighters.

    I know several people who play smash on a competent, if not quite tournament-quality, level. Yet none of these guys will play Mahvel with me. When they try to, they immediately get frustrated because they cannot do DP motions consistently, they get hit because they forgot to block low, etc. Another turn-off to these guys are the combos. As easy as Mahvel's basic combos are, to people who have never played a proper FG before they still look quite intimidating, and even ABCS -> BBCS -> super does take some small amount of play/lab time to get down if you have never played a FG and are still having trouble just doing a qcf consistently, as opposed to smash where combo'ing is much less important below tournament level (or simply non-existent in the case of Brawl). I really think how comfortable you can get with a game the first 2 or 3 times you play it makes a huge difference in whether or not you stick with it, and that smash excels in this category compared to traditional fighters.

    Last but not least, even though Melee is extremely technical at high levels, just like in other FGs there are certain characters who can get the same results as others with much less, if any, need for high execution and tech skill. Sheik and Jiggles being the two biggest offenders IMO, and I don't think it's a coincidence that one of my friends who can't short hop or wave dash plays those exact two chars. And then of course you have brawl where it's like "lol execution? what is that?"
  • EllipsenEllipsen SFV PC Joined: Posts: 2,036
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  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,039
    it seems like something Sirlin would talk about. that FGs that strip down the execution barrier allow you to immediately get to the part of FGs that's actually fun, interacting with your opponent in interesting ways. SSB as a series seems to follow that philosophy.
  • KassandraNovaKassandraNova ☆Classy☆Kassy☆ Joined: Posts: 2,080
    I would argue that Smash "blew up" because of the simple and incredibly intuitive controls. Instead of double tapping or pressing two buttons to dash, you just slam the control stick in whatever direction you want to go and your character starts running. There is an actual jump button instead of having to tap up every time. Likewise, grabs can be accomplished with the press of a single button as opposed to having to use 2 buttons or a direction in conjunction with a button. When you need to block, you just hold a trigger button, you don't have to worry about left/right or high/low. Perhaps most importantly there are no traditional FG inputs like qcf's. All moves are produced by simply pressing one of two buttons and holding a certain direction. All of this adds up to make the game 10x easier to pick up and understand on a basic level than traditional fighters.

    I know several people who play smash on a competent, if not quite tournament-quality, level. Yet none of these guys will play Mahvel with me. When they try to, they immediately get frustrated because they cannot do DP motions consistently, they get hit because they forgot to block low, etc. Another turn-off to these guys are the combos. As easy as Mahvel's basic combos are, to people who have never played a proper FG before they still look quite intimidating, and even ABCS -> BBCS -> super does take some small amount of play/lab time to get down if you have never played a FG and are still having trouble just doing a qcf consistently, as opposed to smash where combo'ing is much less important below tournament level (or simply non-existent in the case of Brawl). I really think how comfortable you can get with a game the first 2 or 3 times you play it makes a huge difference in whether or not you stick with it, and that smash excels in this category compared to traditional fighters.

    Last but not least, even though Melee is extremely technical at high levels, just like in other FGs there are certain characters who can get the same results as others with much less, if any, need for high execution and tech skill. Sheik and Jiggles being the two biggest offenders IMO, and I don't think it's a coincidence that one of my friends who can't short hop or wave dash plays those exact two chars. And then of course you have brawl where it's like "lol execution? what is that?"

    This is more or less what I was trying to say. I love smash and marvel and dp motions are weird, but once you practice them they aren't that bad. :0

    Hm another reason why people may like smash more, is well think of it like this.
    How many reads do you need to beat someone in marvel? 3 or 4 at least, one hit should kill at least (I play zero so yeaaa). So if I only get 4 or 5 reads of my opponent, I win the match. Unless they drop a combo ect. But in smash since there's DI, how many reads do I need tO take a stock? Well I need a few reads for damage, lets say 4 reads, and then I need a read for the kill, now you've taken a stock (at 5 reads), but there are 4 stocks so now I have to do this 4 more times putting it at a total of 20 reads. That's 20 times I have to read my opponent, just to win a match. Jesus Christ. That's annoying as hell. Haha I miss melee xD
    Brawl is bad because it takes too fuckig long. There's always tournaments going until literally 1 or 2 am because they have too many stocks or a high time limit or whatever but it's bad. Lmao
    This is just a guess. Hahah
    Thanks thread now i wanna play melee. That ancient ass dinosaur game. <3 I fucking love it.
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  • CryohCryoh Rock Shock Thunderous Beat Joined: Posts: 9,639
    I guess that games like Melee became really popular in terms of a large tourney scene because, mostly, it's really fun to play on a casual level. I mean, look at all of the cool fluff that the game had that wasn't exactly made for tourney play, but it taught you how to control your character and use all of their tools in a non-threatening setting. It also didn't hurt that it had the 1-2 punch of recognizable characters and four player capabilities.

    Fuck, I really loved Melee back in the day.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,711
    it seems like something Sirlin would talk about. that FGs that strip down the execution barrier allow you to immediately get to the part of FGs that's actually fun, interacting with your opponent in interesting ways. SSB as a series seems to follow that philosophy.

    yeah but that is just one perspective. that's how he thinks of things, and what he likes.
    tons of players, myself included like technical stuff and going through that process of learning and expanding with the limitation of execution.

    i think ssb is a bad example anyway. imho the main contributor to its success was using a variety of nintendo characters. of course everyone who grew up during that time was going to want it. you get to beat on mario as link. it sells itself.

    from that point its just a numbers game. if you sell several million copies of the game, you're going to get some people who REALLY like it and want to seriously dig into it and push the game as far as possible. so it becomes competitive because of that.
    Play more.
  • ph00tbagph00tbag Joined: Posts: 96
    Maybe he meant Darkstalkers?
    lol, yeah, this.
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,699
    yeah but that is just one perspective. that's how he thinks of things, and what he likes.
    tons of players, myself included like technical stuff and going through that process of learning and expanding with the limitation of execution.

    i think ssb is a bad example anyway. imho the main contributor to its success was using a variety of nintendo characters. of course everyone who grew up during that time was going to want it. you get to beat on mario as link. it sells itself.

    from that point its just a numbers game. if you sell several million copies of the game, you're going to get some people who REALLY like it and want to seriously dig into it and push the game as far as possible. so it becomes competitive because of that.


    Melee is an excellent example. To those that have set their minds to the discussion - the paragon. Its character roster is a great contributor to its general popularity, sure. Your "numbers game" theory is also sensible. But the design philosophy of the game's gameplay mechanics, without a doubt, is a great contributor to the game's competitive popularity as well.

    I was going to FG tournaments a good year before I started playing Smash. Without a doubt, the scrub/competitive player ratio was, consistently, the highest for any fighting game I'd ever seen at the height of that game's popularity. At almost every tournament, it felt like % 25- 30 were people that had never been to a Smash tournament. EVERYONE thought they were good at Melee, due to they type of game it was and people's perception of the game.

    The game bred a very unique subculture. I don't think people outside the community realize how much of a phenom this game truly was. Melee was life. EVERYONE I knew in 04'-07' played Melee in some capacity. My mother played Melee. A girl I dated in my freshman year of college played Melee - so did her friends. My friends and their girlfriends (and their friends). If you were part of the FGC at the time, It was only a matter of a few degrees of separation until you came across someone that played the game in tournaments, or at all. Because of how fun the game was to play outside a competitive setting you could have fun playing the game with anyone. No matter how good you were at it. That's something special, and its in large part due to the gameplay design.

    It's a damn shame that more FG developers aren't looking at this game's mechanics and design philosophies more closely because they're so afraid of the traditional community's negative perception of it. The game has some excellent mechanics that could easily expand the genre.
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,711
    melee is a great game.
    not sure how that changes anything that i said. the series is successful because of the characters.
    the gameplay comes after that. brand awareness is pretty much the most important thing when it comes to selling a product.

    you can't compare that to other stuff that does not have that kind of awareness. the gameplay is sick, I played melee all throughout college and still love the game. it is an awesome game all around. but smash became big because it let kids play as their favorite character and beat up their friends. not because the gameplay was super slick and refined (although it pretty much is especially in melee).
    Play more.
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,699
    melee is a great game.
    not sure how that changes anything that i said. the series is successful because of the characters.
    the gameplay comes after that. brand awareness is pretty much the most important thing when it comes to selling a product.

    you can't compare that to other stuff that does not have that kind of awareness. the gameplay is sick, I played melee all throughout college and still love the game. it is an awesome game all around. but smash became big because it let kids play as their favorite character and beat up their friends. not because the gameplay was super slick and refined (although it pretty much is especially in melee).


    To suggest that the Nintendo branding is the only reason the game was popular is simple-minded and plain wrong.
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
  • GAPGAP Joined: Posts: 59
    I may just interrupting but the general gist I got form this thread is that everyone loves Smash because you don't have to QCF motions to execute a move. I had been playing Smash (although not recently) for a little while and I'll find it to be a lot easier to play than SF. Even though SF has much more simple controls than most fighters I know of, I don't have to worry as much about inputs since they are almost universal. You know I am not sure if the time had something to do with to do people flocking to smash but from what I researched on the internet and from Shoryuken, some of the main reasons why SFIII series failed on the market is because most of the causals couldn't recognize anyone from the games save for Ryu and Ken.

    I have an easier time understanding the movesets with the help from this site but Smash is one of those games where you can pick up and play the game without having to worry about what moves do for each character.
  • ric0ric0 Pretty cool Guy Joined: Posts: 466
    You can pick up and play pretty well against someone else who is doing the same thing, or maybe someone who's played before but doesn't play often. Put them up against someone who has put time and research into the game and the person picking up and playing will want to quit cause they don't know what the fuck is going on. I feel this holds true to most games in general.
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  • zeechzeech Dismember Joined: Posts: 578
    I wonder how much of an effect nostalgia has. We know that SF4 was pretty big (in contrast to SF3) because of its SF2 characters evoking nostalgia from a generation of arcade players. Smash obviously runs the entire gamut of Nintendo's history so it probably has a pretty strong effect here too.
  • GAPGAP Joined: Posts: 59
    I wonder how much of an effect nostalgia has. We know that SF4 was pretty big (in contrast to SF3) because of its SF2 characters evoking nostalgia from a generation of arcade players. Smash obviously runs the entire gamut of Nintendo's history so it probably has a pretty strong effect here too.


    To be fair, characters such as Ryu, Ken, Chun Li, Bison, Dhalsim, Zangief and the SF2 cast are pretty well known by most of the world even those who don't normally play fighting games. I look in ads of SFII and I mostly see Ryu or Chun Li fighting Sagat or E. Honda. Alpha barely breached new players and SFIII series was too different for the mainstreams liking. Ryu himself is basically Capcom's Mario for fighters, everyone knows who he is and how his fireball sounds, "Hadouken!!!" Nintendo pretty much has the advantage of brand recognirion as almost everyone know who Pikachu, Link or Mario is.
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,699
    Nostalgia can only take anything so far. Especially among a competitive crowd.

    A perfect example is myself. I started playing Melee with Mario and I loved the character so much, I was determined to make him work at a competitive level when I was introduced to the scene. I was easily one of the best, if not, THE best, Mario at the time - but I couldn't win with him. I grinded with him for a good six months at least. I could do a lot of innovative and cool things with the him and made people drop their jaws with my tech skill and understanding of the character - but I couldn't win with him.

    I made an ironic, Ken inspired decision (TG6 vids vs. Chillen) to start messing around with Marth. This was ironic because at the time, Marth was easily my most hated character. I thought he was cheap, and looked way too effeminate for my tastes. But I figured if I learned to play him, I'd do better fighting against him.

    Marth quickly became one of my favorite FG characters of all time:

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419105

    Even though I don't play Melee at all anymore, just the idea of gracefully swinging Marth's sword around with dedicated spacing brings a certain degree of mirth. There's nothing like it in any other FG. I fell in love with this character purely due to his gameplay. My ever increasing love for how Marth played increased my passion for the game, which helped me develop the drive to win. I never even heard of Fire Emblem prior to Melee and have had no interest in touching the series till' this day. 95% of my love for Marth comes from how he plays in the context of SSBM.

    So yeah, nostalgia definitely had a hand in recruiting a lot of Melee's competitive army but the gameplay made us dedicated soldiers.
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
  • DarknidDarknid The Chan Man Joined: Posts: 532
    Smash took off because it took Nintendo's legendary game icons and put them together in a game that combined the time-tested elements of Nintendo's great platformers with the style of a beat-em-up fighter, and Melee just happened to be an incredibly deep competitive game. It attracts casual and competitive players alike.

    I get the distinct impression that people who insult Smash Bros either haven't seen a competitive match or have seen one and the sight of all the tech at work made their balls shrink and they're living in denial ever since.
    Ready as hell.

    A tier list.
  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    Smash took off because it took Nintendo's legendary game icons and put them together in a game that combined the time-tested elements of Nintendo's great platformers with the style of a beat-em-up fighter, and Melee just happened to be an incredibly deep competitive game. It attracts casual and competitive players alike.

    I get the distinct impression that people who insult Smash Bros either haven't seen a competitive match or have seen one and the sight of all the tech at work made their balls shrink and they're living in denial ever since.

    I don't really insult, Smash Brothers, but after quitting it and switching to proper fighting games I no longer have respect for it. They all have their valuable points in competitive depth, but honestly, the game as a whole just doesn't do it for me after I learned to play real fighting games.

    Maybe if SSB4 is designed from the ground up with competitive play in mind -- so that the tier lists and the stages get better designs, but if it continues in the vein of Brawl then the series is never going to be any more respected.

    And frankly, after having watched TONS of competitive matches back when I wanted to try and break into playing hte game competitive -- there's nothing about them that I actually like. Especially when Brawl's MLG scene basically turned into a joke of being able to predict who'd win based on the characters and the stage.

    Like it or not, MLG was where the money was for the game -- and as a result, that's what people will reference for competitive play for the game.
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  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,699
    Like it or not, MLG was where the money was for the game -- and as a result, that's what people will reference for competitive play for the game.


    You might have watched some Melee matches, but judging by your post and this line in particular, you likely just played Brawl. Everything you just posted is awful in more ways than one.
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
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