The "SFxT isn't turtle-y unless you turtle" thread (good matches)

The Lone Dragon

Since the SRK frontpage doesn't like posting good MATCH footage of SFxT for some reason (I e-mailed them about the CapcomXGodsgarden archives days ago, and still nothing), I decided to take it upon myself.

I heard a commentator on the Canada Cup stream say "SFxT is a turtle-y game". I loled. In North America perhaps. Not elsewhere.

FACT: If you actively choose to turtle, then any fighting game will be boring.

The footage in this thread will be of people who play this game properly.

CAPCOM X GODSGARDEN STREAM ARCHIVES (the wonders of motivated announcers...what a concept! Maybe we should give that a try...):
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21463205 (block play)
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21465407 (top 8)
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21466920 (top 8/finals)



Also, some online replay footage.


Yogaflame24's channel has a lot of footage
(some cross assault usage)



As does ssf4evo



If you find good matches that demonstrate the non-North American way of playing this game, please post them here.

EDIT:

Cody&Guy18, post: 6746886, member: 46756 wrote:

+70 minutes of gameplay: 3 time outs counted...

The Lone Dragon, post: 6771101, member: 4398 wrote:

otori

I'm not sure i follow. You saying we should ban turtle play from tournaments?

Boodendorf

otori, post: 6740893, member: 13700 wrote:

I'm not sure i follow. You saying we should ban turtle play from tournaments?

Where did you even read the words "ban" and "tournament" in his post?

Anyway thanks for posting the godsgarden matches, missed the beginning.

otori

I see a post saying we shouldn't play turtle and maybe hop all around the screen? Listing a poongko match as a way a game should be played is a nice joke though.

RedVega

otori, post: 6740893, member: 13700 wrote:

I'm not sure i follow. You saying we should ban turtle play from tournaments?

He's saying that Americans should see how people outside of the U.S. play SF X Tekken because it's indicative that maybe this game is meant to be played at a fast pace (and I agree). Americans tend to play this game very defensively a la SF4... and other players are showing that this is a pretty fast and aggressive game.

ironboy89

People seriously need to watch that UltraChen TV with them trying to get people to make better choices. You may not like UltraChen........but they doing it right by teaching people to play the game properly.

ironboy89

Also, NCR SFXT didn't have "turtlely" gameplay either.....so I don't see where you acting like North America is doing it wrong.

98989898

Way too early to say how the game 'should' be played, but certain the system seems to reward turtling a lot.

The Lone Dragon

Nothing at NCR compared to the energy

otori, post: 6740913, member: 13700 wrote:

I see a post saying we shouldn't play turtle and maybe hop all around the screen? Listing a poongko match as a way a game should be played is a nice joke though.

You may have missed the memo, but he doesn't play Seth in SFxT...since Seth isn't in SFxT. (Anyone want to make an Ogre joke? I set you up perfectly...anyone?)

otori

And yet he plays kazuya/anyone else the same way, without giving a fuck.

The Lone Dragon, post: 6741100, member: 4398 wrote:

Nothing at NCR compared to the energy

Oh i see...it's about the hype. Let's fly nuki in, he makes everything look hype.

Dime_x

srry, but i aint buying that this game isnt turtly at all. if a player WANTS TO WIN, they will turtle. and they will force the other guy to turtle also. all those poongko matches where hes juming around like an idiot cause its casuals online dont seem indicative that the game wont be turtly.

im not even saying that the game IS truly turtly... just that seeing people hopping all over the place doesnt seem indicative of a smart style of play... but maybe thats just me: the way i see it is there is no way to be offensive from neutral in the game without taking a decent amount of risk as there arent any moving forwards moves that are safe on block which mainly leaves dashing and jumping as offense.... which gets blown up by smart defensive play. if there were more characters with more varied approaches that force a player to choose between different defenses then maybe i could see it... but not right now.


anywho ty for linking to the GG stream.


-dime

XDubzX

Whenever I hear the "you're playing it wrong" I know the game sucks. You can't play a good game wrong. It should be satisfying...aka "fun"...no matter how you play it.

Hatred Edge

ironboy89, post: 6740994, member: 44847 wrote:

Also, NCR SFXT didn't have "turtlely" gameplay either.....so I don't see where you acting like North America is doing it wrong.

The SFxT board I assume.

The Lone Dragon

XDubzX, post: 6741324, member: 9558 wrote:

Whenever I hear the "you're playing it wrong" I know the game sucks. You can't play a good game wrong. It should be satisfying...aka "fun"...no matter how you play it.

Wut?

So, then where did the expression "playing lame" come from?

Where did the expression "turtle" come from? And, why does it have a negative connotation?

I think most people who play fighting games (and, I'm not even talking about SFxT) can name play styles or character styles that they simply do not enjoy fighting against...even in their favorite games.

My point is that you shouldn't blame that on the game.

terror k07

XDubzX, post: 6741324, member: 9558 wrote:

Whenever I hear the "you're playing it wrong" I know the game sucks. You can't play a good game wrong. It should be satisfying...aka "fun"...no matter how you play it.

you would call playing chris g's morgian team in mvc3 or dimineon's guile in sf4 fun?

SUPARNOVAX

ITT: We're hypocrites and we trash on SFxT for the hell of it.

Vulcan Hades

Yeah blocking is pretty strong in this game. I mean frame traps are kinda useless because no one is even scared of normal throws since you can see them coming a mile away. So you can press buttons and try to cross-up all you want it's not going to matter against a player that knows how to block properly.

In MK9, you can't turtle too much because blocking gives your opponent insane amounts of meter and chips you to death. I always thought it was kinda stupid until now. I realize it was smart design to keep the game from being too defensive and lame to watch. It forces you to use movement (walking+backdash), specials and pokes that alter your hittable box for defense instead of relying on the block button which is nice.

ukyo_rulz

Saying that a game "isn't turtle-y unless you turtle" is like saying that special moves "won't chip you unless you block".

Phillyfanboy

SFxT is a good game tbh. It needs a few tweaks, but I like the game.

Psychoblue

I recall someone telling me that the US HATED 3rd Strike until around 2001 when Japanese match footage started coming in and people realized they weren't playing the game correctly...

...wow, that sounds familiar.

tataki

The best characters are iron walls. Sorry to break it to you but good turtles are the best in this game.

OMG its a duck

COME ON STOP TURTLING GUYS, THIS ISN'T FUN! THIS ISN'T HOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PLAY, STOP IT! COME ON, GIVE ME A CHANCE GUYS I CAN'T EVEN HIT YOU, COME ON, ALL YOU DO IS BLOCK!

ironboy89

terror k07, post: 6741753, member: 31037 wrote:

you would call playing chris g's morgian team in mvc3 or dimineon's guile in sf4 fun?

............but why would that be consider playing the game wrong?

Gimpyfish62

i came into this thread, clicked on the first video, and saw that the first round went to 3 seconds on the clock... (then closed the link)

is this supposed to be the fast paced non turtley gameplay? because that's PRETTY AWFUL if it is.

Forte

Psychoblue, post: 6741896, member: 4258 wrote:

I recall someone telling me that the US HATED 3rd Strike until around 2001 when Japanese match footage started coming in and people realized they weren't playing the game correctly...

...wow, that sounds familiar.

That was over a decade ago. Games get figured out and evolve on a whole 'nother level in 2012.

PKSkyler

i like how the very first round of the very first video you posted was 3 seconds from a time over and the person who won woulda won from time anyway.

Cody&Guy18

Lol, people misunderstood the OP. He's not saying that you shouldn't turtle at all or that he can't handle playing against people who play defensively, he saying that applying this playstyle does not count for SFxT only and makes it a totally defensive type of game. Most streams make SFxT look like a slow paced game and full of time outs. Yet, when you see GodsGarden:

- Barely time outs. And when they occur, players either stand their ground, counter or don't backdash/jump back like crazy to ensure their win.
- Character variation! 1 Ryu (iirc) in top eight, no Rolento and Rufus (= last one being picked like hell when people start to lose just for his strong dive kick pressure and cross-ups). Oh, what about Raven then? Well, Kazunoko knew his shit, so you got to blame him for that right?!
- Commentators who ENJOY the game. TastySteve and RIP come to mind at the LevelUp tournament. "Yo, commentator thinks this game sucks, got to think the same right?!?" -> stream monster mindset.
- Way more rushdown, punish at the right moments, tag out at the right moments (don't be a hero, raw tag if you have to!), alpha counters, Cross Arts,...

SFIV has to get out of people's mind when they play this game. I guess people have to pick a scapegoat everytime, and that's SFxT for now...

OMG its a duck

But the main goal of just about any competitive fighting game is to find the way to play the game most optimally, not what's fun or entertaining, results above anything else. It just so happens that turtle-y play is very strong in this game, so it gets used a lot. It's boring, but it's what works.

If you have to play a game a certain way for it to be fun that isn't simply trying to win at it, then it's not going to be a very fun competitive game. It can be a fun game that isn't competitive, but as a competitive game it'll be boring.

Also hype commentators can make anything good. MST3K.

X Fatal Grace X

C'mon boys and girls- it's 2012!!

Don't you know this by now..

If you lose to a character w/ projectile- they are spammers

If you lose to a character that can block- they are turtles

If you lose to a character that uses normals or unique attacks- they are scrubs

If you are a turtle and lose to another turtle- they are lame

If you lose to someone to a timeout- you just played someone who didn't know how to play "properly"
(as everyone knows all matches must end in K.O. To be "properly played")

Seriously, for everyones sake, I hope you do not use one or more of the following characters in SFxT:
Cammy, Chun Li, Hugo, Sagat, Dhalsim, Ryu, Rufus, Poison, Vega, Zangief, Balrog, Akuma, Ibuki, Guile, Bison, Abel, Juri, Ken, Rolento, Kazuya, Ogre, Steve, King, Jin, Xiaoyu, Asuka, Heihachi, Kuma, Lili, Julia, Marduk, Nina, Paul, Raven, Yoshimitsu, Bob, Hwoarang, or Law

Because if you do, and you win, you may be called a label from above, and that not only hurts feelings, and e-peen, but also the FGC as a whole.

entenfett

terror k07, post: 6741753, member: 31037 wrote:

you would call playing chris g's morgian team in mvc3 or dimineon's guile in sf4 fun?

I don't care for marvel, but watching a good Guile is the most "fun" i can have watching a SF game. I don't mind defensive play at all. Give me one good Guile match over the 200 best Seth matches any day of the week. Maybe thats why i enjoy current SFxT streams even when most commentators don't seem to give a shit and are trying to point how boring timeouts are all day for whatever reason.

XDubzX, post: 6741324, member: 9558 wrote:

Whenever I hear the "you're playing it wrong" I know the game sucks. You can't play a good game wrong. It should be satisfying...aka "fun"...no matter how you play it.

Do you keep posting in the forums of other games you don't like too or is it just this one? Is this "fun" for you?

Vicioushellsing

Speaking of Ultrachen's "opinion" on how the game should be played. During their interview I remember early on they said Ryan Hunter said they were completely wrong and would be doing a show a few days later on the same thing. Anyone know what he said?

Mr. Unbrockable

OMG its a duck, post: 6741951, member: 37440 wrote:

COME ON STOP TURTLING GUYS, THIS ISN'T FUN! THIS ISN'T HOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PLAY, STOP IT! COME ON, GIVE ME A CHANCE GUYS I CAN'T EVEN HIT YOU, COME ON, ALL YOU DO IS BLOCK!

That actually is EXACTLY the kind of thing my older brother says when we play FG's. then he calls me cheap and sling various other insults.

Fatal Error XI

Vicioushellsing, post: 6742700, member: 34554 wrote:

Speaking of Ultrachen's "opinion" on how the game should be played. During their interview I remember early on they said Ryan Hunter said they were completely wrong and would be doing a show a few days later on the same thing. Anyone know what he said?

He did not stream, he's going to write an article instead. Source:

Vicioushellsing

Ah cool thanks for that.

del1rium

The Lone Dragon, post: 6741575, member: 4398 wrote:

So, then where did the expression "playing lame" come from?

Like most FG lingo (or any vernacular) it came from the need to describe something ... in this case, a style of play. Diemineon plays lame. Chris G plays lame. Eddie Lee plays lame. JWong used to play lame. Lots of players who also happen to get results. Funny how that works. Because if they were playing "wrong" instead of "lame" they'd just be bad at the game.

The Lone Dragon, post: 6741575, member: 4398 wrote:

Where did the expression "turtle" come from? And, why does it have a negative connotation?

Only has a negative connotation among scrubs and bad players who think if you're not furiously jumping around and pressing buttons then you're not playing the game "the right way."

Wonderswan

ironboy89, post: 6740986, member: 44847 wrote:

People seriously need to watch that UltraChen TV with them trying to get people to make better choices. You may not like UltraChen........but they doing it right by teaching people to play the game properly.

People who actually give a fuck already are playing and learning the game 'properly', don't think otherwise just because SRK is overrun with butt frustrated sperglords who never stfu whinging.

Dime_x

Wonderswan, post: 6743341, member: 10630 wrote:

People who actually give a fuck already are playing and learning the game 'properly', don't think otherwise just because SRK is overrun with butt frustrated sperglords who never stfu whinging.

there is no proper way to play any game. if you have the skill to rushdown a turtle in a mostly defensive game, you can do it. if you have the skill to play defensively in a rushdown game, you can do it. LOL at playing a fighting game "properly" when i come in and AA all those bullshit jumpins and do half damage from one anti air...


-dime

Wonderswan

Dime_x, post: 6743368, member: 4896 wrote:

there is no proper way to play any game. if you have the skill to rushdown a turtle in a mostly defensive game, you can do it. if you have the skill to play defensively in a rushdown game, you can do it. LOL at playing a fighting game "properly" when i come in and AA all those bullshit jumpins and do half damage from one anti air...


-dime

Oh I know Dimey, that's why I singled out the 'properly' part. The entire idea is stupid, I wanted to get across the only way you can fail at playing a game is bitching and whining about it like an autismal fuck on a message board. Hope I cleared that up.

Seriously, only retards approach a game and try and force it to play like the only other game they've put any time into.

AnneIFrank

If turtling is so godlike why the fuck is Rufus considered S Tier?

I swear to god SRK will never make any fucking sense.

X Fatal Grace X

AnneIFrank, post: 6743555, member: 63866 wrote:

If turtling is so godlike why the fuck is Rufus considered S Tier?

I swear to god SRK will never make any fucking sense.

Clearly different peoples "OPINION" cannot contradict one another.

If turtle is working for group A, and Rufus is S tier to group B... This is the epitome of chaos and people not knowing what they are talking about!

AnneIFrank

X Fatal Grace X, post: 6743587, member: 65487 wrote:

Clearly different peoples "OPINION" cannot contradict one another.

If turtle is working for group A, and Rufus is S tier to group B... This is the epitome of chaos and people not knowing what they are talking about!

Most forums either have a general consensus or a Camp A/Camp B type of thing.

On SRK it's so fucked I never really know who's gonna say what at any moment.

X Fatal Grace X

AnneIFrank, post: 6743596, member: 63866 wrote:

Most forums either have a general consensus or a Camp A/Camp B type of thing.

On SRK it's so fucked I never really know who's gonna say what at any moment.

Fun isn't it?

AnneIFrank

X Fatal Grace X, post: 6743611, member: 65487 wrote:

Fun isn't it?

I keep coming back.

Prz

The Lone Dragon, post: 6740868, member: 4398 wrote:

FACT: If you actively choose to turtle, then any fighting game will be boring.

whether or not SFxT actually favors turtlers or not aside..

uh, if one person turtles and it is hard for the enemy to deal with it, it is a turtley game. two people making some sort of "gentlemen's agreement" not to turtle doesnt change how the game is. "YO IF EVERYONE PICKS HAKAN IN SF4 THEN HAKAN WILL BE TOP TIER. ITS ONLY A NON-HAKAN GAME IF PEOPLE DONT PLAY HAKAN"

terror k07, post: 6741753, member: 31037 wrote:

you would call playing chris g's morgian team in mvc3 or dimineon's guile in sf4 fun?

as many characters, yes.

Dime_x

AnneIFrank, post: 6743555, member: 63866 wrote:

If turtling is so godlike why the fuck is Rufus considered S Tier?

I swear to god SRK will never make any fucking sense.

'cause rufus has a broken move that even idiots can use to create offense. and not every character is rufus. sf4 is defensive game. but it has rufus, the twins, viper etc that can all rushdown.. but they do it through moves that most of the cast has absolutely no access to (ex seismo..WTF?) and unless you are using one of those types of characters then the game is defensive in nature.

sfxt is defensive in nature.... VERY defensive, probably even more defensive than sf4. BUT, there are character that can eclipse that via how there moves work. unfortunately, however its THE MECHANICS of the game that make it defensive.


idk its an easy concept for me to understand:

umvc3 is an offensive game.... very easy to understand, yet morrigan and doom can play lame and rain down lockdown plasma from fullscreen... doesnt make the game not offensive, just makes those characters when put together, defensive.


-dime

AnneIFrank

Dime_x, post: 6743625, member: 4896 wrote:

-dime

I'm not arguing design, I just don't what I'm supposed to complain about anymore.

tl;dr I'm a smart ass

Soulzityr

People complaining about there not being needed to be told a way to play the game should watch the actual video first. You'll see they're not telling you what STYLE you should play, but a way to optimize damage from your combos, in which case is pointing out how to manipulate the mathematical calculations of damage in combos. They don't say that "this game isn't meant to turtle, people shouldn't do it"

I'm talking about the UltraChen video

Thancruz

at this point both sides are beating a dead horse. People can come out with a thousand vids of Japan or England or Brazil playing this game totally different and will still be SFxTimeout if the time is even close to 0 at the end of the match. And people will still be claiming SSF4 as one of the best games ever even though just last year people were talking about how boring the game was and calling it "Yun fighter 4" "Snore fighter 4" or whatever SRK joke name given to the latest Capcom game. Just play or don't play the game, and go back to your respective corners and continue supporting whatever game u do (KOF 13,SFxT,SCV, etc.)

OMG its a duck

Thancruz, post: 6744192, member: 22788 wrote:

And people will still be claiming SSF4 as one of the best games ever

I have never seen anyone say SF4 is a great series except for reasons like "it brought the community back together"

Piepmatz

Weren´t most of you guys arguing about how anti-airs, reversals and fireballs are too weak a few days ago? Wasn´t this thread supposed to be a videothread for good and interesting matches? Seems like it already turned into one of these timeout/turtle discussions. Only "hot" topics missing yet are "DLC on disk" and assistgems.
I don´t want to tell people what to talk about but please keep in mind that this game isn´t even out a whole month. I know I´m not the first one saying this but it´s impossible to know what will happen to the metagame (can one use this word in a fighting game environment?) in the next few months or years. Don´t pretend everything concerning the gameplay is set in stone already.

Graphf

terror k07, post: 6741753, member: 31037 wrote:

you would call playing chris g's morgian team in mvc3 or dimineon's guile in sf4 fun?

Ya, I would. What of it? I also like watching them. 2 of my favorite players for exactly the reasons you list.



I also love how most of you are saying that people in SFxT just hop around a lot and whatever. What about KoF? There is a SHIT TON of jumping in that game. OH, but since it's cool to hate on SFxT and KoF is a "real honest fighting game" (that is meaningless statement btw) it's ok that there is alot of jumping in the game.

otori, post: 6740893, member: 13700 wrote:

I'm not sure i follow. You saying we should ban turtle play from tournaments?

I have no clue who you got this from what he said.

OP is pointing out there there are different play styles but no one appreciates that fact that he collected a ton of high level play and out it together for people to watch. I think the game is incredibly flexible. Some people don't like turtles, does that mean we should remove that ENTIRE play style from the game? I think that would only serve to lessen the game overall. It should cater to many different styles. That is the that mark of a good game.