Skullgirls Gameplay Discussion Thanks For Playing

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  • HASJHASJ Joined: Posts: 179
    edited August 2013
    Can anyone explain undizzy to me? Is that the green IPS?
    Offtopic: Skullgirls 2 would happen seven years from SG1, right?
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Iron-Man now has nothing.
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    edited August 2013
    HASJ wrote: »
    Can anyone explain undizzy to me? Is that the green IPS?

    Undizzy is the green IPS.

    Starting at IPS stage 5, moves will start to apply undizzy to the comboed character. In general lights are 10, mediums are 20, hards are 30, and specials are 20 (iirc).

    If the undizzy value reaches 350 the opponent will turn green and be given the option to burst. The undizzy burst can only be activated at the beginning of a chain. So, for example, if you reach 350 on the second hit of a chain the opponent can't burst until you start a new one. This is all you really need to worry about if you aren't good at these games, but there's more below.

    If the combo stops before 350 the undizzy value will decay back to zero over time. It takes a maximum of 60 frames (1 second) for anything greater than 350 to return to zero. Additionally, knockdown recoveries immediately put undizzy back to zero, and counter-hitting someone with undizzy also resets it to zero (EDIT: turns out this isn't the case). Sliding knockdowns do NOT reset undizzy to zero.

    Undizzy decay immediately stops if the opponent is put into hit or block stun. The purpose of this is to make really long combo into reset into really long combo not possible, and to encourage early resets. Think of it as a way to appease both the long-combo fans and reset-heavy fans. People who prefer to just do the long combos can still do them, but must let their opponent have a chance at neutral before doing another one. People who really like to go for resets (which can be very oppressive in this game) have to go for more than just two resets if they wanna kill, giving the opponent a few more chances to guess right and escape.
    Post edited by Dude on
  • evilweevleevilweevle Xbox GT : MrFossy Joined: Posts: 4,275
    okay so i was watching the squigly character walkthrough that is on gametrailers TV and noticed a couple things i am not familiar with.

    first off i noticed that a lot of the time when a character is hit they flash red, only for the first hit though. second i noticed was that sometimes after a character recovers from a hit, there is like a white "ping" (thats the best way i can describe it)

    im guessing maybe the red is counterhit? and the ping shows when you can actually control your character again after recovering from hitstun?

    are there any other effects that have been added. game looks really busy as it is now. i seem to recall someone mentioning a new ground bounce colour as well or am i imagining that?
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  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    edited August 2013
    evilweevle wrote: »
    okay so i was watching the squigly character walkthrough that is on gametrailers TV and noticed a couple things i am not familiar with.

    first off i noticed that a lot of the time when a character is hit they flash red, only for the first hit though. second i noticed was that sometimes after a character recovers from a hit, there is like a white "ping" (thats the best way i can describe it)

    im guessing maybe the red is counterhit? and the ping shows when you can actually control your character again after recovering from hitstun?

    are there any other effects that have been added. game looks really busy as it is now. i seem to recall someone mentioning a new ground bounce colour as well or am i imagining that?

    The red is indeed on counter hit. (Undizzy resets on CH, so it's a useful heads up).

    The "ping" is a recovery spark. After 3+ hits it comes out when you've left hitstun. Useful for all the people that complain about "TODs" that were actually just resets.

    There is no new bounce color. Just the three from SDE. And those are the only new effects.

    Edit: oh, and btw, I mentioned that MP/HP Updo are multi-hit and only knock down if all hits connect, turns out there was a change I missed. The multihit is only on point, and knockdown is back to normal. As an assist the damage depends on when the move hits. I had switched to Hairball assist after the nerf, so I didn't notice the revision.
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    Dude wrote: »
    (Undizzy resets on CH, so it's a useful heads up).
    That was planned to happen at some point but never happened. Iirc Counterhits are completely useless.
    And those are the only new effects.
    We have assist- and point indicators as well now.
    Why.
  • evilweevleevilweevle Xbox GT : MrFossy Joined: Posts: 4,275
    that would be great if counterhits reset the undizzy. thats kinda daft then if in the final version counterhits dont even do anything. why even bother putting the graphic effect there in the first place?

    i bet the glitch i told mike about a bunch of times wasnt even fixed either :(
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  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    Vulpes wrote: »
    Dude wrote: »
    (Undizzy resets on CH, so it's a useful heads up).
    That was planned to happen at some point but never happened. Iirc Counterhits are completely useless.
    And those are the only new effects.
    We have assist- and point indicators as well now.

    Didn't realize CH undizzy resets were never put in. Do you know if it's on the docket at all? Or did Mike just drop the idea entirely?

    I mentioned the assist/point indicators in an earlier post, but didn't consider them to be an effect in the same vein as CH and recovery.
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    evilweevle wrote: »
    that would be great if counterhits reset the undizzy. thats kinda daft then if in the final version counterhits dont even do anything. why even bother putting the graphic effect there in the first place?

    i bet the glitch i told mike about a bunch of times wasnt even fixed either :(

    What glitch?
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    Thinking about it though, it makes sense to not have undizzy reset on CH. It would punish mashers, sure, but it also seems to run counter to the purposes of the current undizzy system. (Most resets require a guess between either mashing throw/reversal or blocking, which means lots of CHs, which means more long combo > late reset > long combos). I'd be fine with it either way, but I think it's more consistent from a design perspective as is.

    Still, why the red flash?
  • evilweevleevilweevle Xbox GT : MrFossy Joined: Posts: 4,275
    Dude wrote: »
    evilweevle wrote: »
    that would be great if counterhits reset the undizzy. thats kinda daft then if in the final version counterhits dont even do anything. why even bother putting the graphic effect there in the first place?

    i bet the glitch i told mike about a bunch of times wasnt even fixed either :(

    What glitch?

    well its more of a hitbox issue than a glitch.

    squigly in corner. fortune head also in corner. make the head do zoom OUT of the corner. when i tested at evo it would whiff completely, even when she was in hitstun too.

    if someone could test it i would appreciate it.

    3DS friend code : 0232 8273 2994
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    evilweevle wrote: »
    Dude wrote: »
    evilweevle wrote: »
    that would be great if counterhits reset the undizzy. thats kinda daft then if in the final version counterhits dont even do anything. why even bother putting the graphic effect there in the first place?

    i bet the glitch i told mike about a bunch of times wasnt even fixed either :(

    What glitch?

    well its more of a hitbox issue than a glitch.

    squigly in corner. fortune head also in corner. make the head do zoom OUT of the corner. when i tested at evo it would whiff completely, even when she was in hitstun too.

    if someone could test it i would appreciate it.

    Squigly's hurt/hitboxes have changed a lot since EVO, but I'll check.
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    evilweevle wrote: »
    Dude wrote: »
    evilweevle wrote: »
    that would be great if counterhits reset the undizzy. thats kinda daft then if in the final version counterhits dont even do anything. why even bother putting the graphic effect there in the first place?

    i bet the glitch i told mike about a bunch of times wasnt even fixed either :(

    What glitch?

    well its more of a hitbox issue than a glitch.

    squigly in corner. fortune head also in corner. make the head do zoom OUT of the corner. when i tested at evo it would whiff completely, even when she was in hitstun too.

    if someone could test it i would appreciate it.

    Alright, I tested it. You are right, it does wiff. I tried it with hitboxes on slow-mo. What's happening is the startup of the Zoom! hitbox is too slow. The head has already passed Squigly's hurt box by the time its active frames start. So Mike would have to change startup frames to fix it, which I think would be an unnecessary buff (especially considering normal headbutt works fine in this position).
  • evilweevleevilweevle Xbox GT : MrFossy Joined: Posts: 4,275
    Dude wrote: »
    evilweevle wrote: »
    Dude wrote: »
    evilweevle wrote: »
    that would be great if counterhits reset the undizzy. thats kinda daft then if in the final version counterhits dont even do anything. why even bother putting the graphic effect there in the first place?

    i bet the glitch i told mike about a bunch of times wasnt even fixed either :(

    What glitch?

    well its more of a hitbox issue than a glitch.

    squigly in corner. fortune head also in corner. make the head do zoom OUT of the corner. when i tested at evo it would whiff completely, even when she was in hitstun too.

    if someone could test it i would appreciate it.

    Alright, I tested it. You are right, it does wiff. I tried it with hitboxes on slow-mo. What's happening is the startup of the Zoom! hitbox is too slow. The head has already passed Squigly's hurt box by the time its active frames start. So Mike would have to change startup frames to fix it, which I think would be an unnecessary buff (especially considering normal headbutt works fine in this position).

    i mentioned this to mike z at evo and right away he figured that it was because squigs is too thin, so they could always shift the hitbox slightly or extend it by a pixel or 2 which wouldnt affect things too much. or they could make the hitbox behind fortunes head a little larger too which by definition would be a buff, but i dont think it would make a massive difference to the effectiveness of the head.

    reason it bugs me is because i use zoom as fortunes assist and use it for combo extension, basically to make a super tight link a lot easier for bella.
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  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    Dude wrote: »
    Didn't realize CH undizzy resets were never put in. Do you know if it's on the docket at all? Or did Mike just drop the idea entirely?
    Last thing I heard the idea got dropped entirely because Mike noticed that everyone gets counterhit all the time,
    which would essentially mean that Undizzy doesn't play an actual role in the game anymore

    Not like it does enough in the current version of the game, anyways..

    Why.
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,476
    So what does everyone think of the new version? I'll be honest and say that I haven't touched the game in a while. Partly because I'm still unhappy about undizzy, and partly because losing my fire for SG has reignited my competitive spirit for Magic the Gathering. I've been too busy with MtG tournaments to play much else.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    Combos are still too long
    Fortune is still retarded

    Other than that, it's looking pretty good.
    Why.
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    I'm having fun with it. I like the nerfs to assists. They're allowing the neutral game to breath a bit (imo).

    Squigly is fun. Though her j.HP is garbage against Filia's Airball, and it angers me. In fact, as a side note, I think that might be Squig's worst matchup.

    @Vulpes is probably right about combo length, but at least the DHC crap doesn't happen anymore (from what I've seen). I'd be fine with undizzy counting from stage 3 instead of 5, or a limit reduction (280?), maybe even just letting undizzy activate in the middle of a chain would be enough... but I haven't been on the IRC or watched Salty in a while so I have no idea whether Mike is happy with it as is. I think I recall him saying he wanted undizzy to leave non-DHC/tag combos alone for the most part...

    Anyway, I'd try it out, assuming you have access to the PC version.
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,476
    I do have access to the PC version, but at the moment I've lost my fire for the game. I just... really dislike the very idea of undizzy. I want to like the game. I donated a not-insignificant sum to the crowd-funding and the way things are now it's leaving a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. I'll wait a couple weeks and see if absence makes my heart grow fonder.

    For now I'm having fun with Dragon's Dogma and Magic the Gathering. It honestly feels amazing to play a game where you get better by playing more, instead of by grinding it out in the lab. I think I'll let the community lay the groundwork for me this time and just sharingan myself some BnB combos and strats for later.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    Why are you so against Undizzy when you dislike the Labwork stuff?
    It's the only saving grace, harsher IPS is NOT cutting it in any way (unless you allow it to trigger in the middle of chains..)

    Also I was pretty against Undizzy myself, but the way it turned out in the game.. meh, I'm alright with it.
    If you're new you're never ever gonna hit it, and if you aren't new it's not hard to understand at all.
    Actually, it makes combo crafting a lot more fun and less stupid than "Find one loop, do it 5 times"
    The 90f-Deterioration also *theoretically* gives the game more depth.. sadly the Undizzy limit is too high, so it doesn't really :\
    Why.
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,476
    Vulpes wrote: »
    Why are you so against Undizzy when you dislike the Labwork stuff?

    I am fairly ambivalent to training mode, but I like having a lot of competition. The higher the level of my opponents the more fun I have. I get zero satisfaction from beating someone who plays inefficiently, so I prefer that everyone be able to do the optimised stuff. Playing MtG these past few weeks, it's been scratching that itch so much more efficiently for me. Like, just a week ago a pro named Brian Kibler unleashed a new monster of a deck on the MtG metagame, and I was playing against it at a tournament on that same week. There's no gap. Like, imagine if ChrisG showed MorriDoom on stream and you could have a fair chance of seeing (or facing) optimised MorriDoom on a tournament in a day or two. Or imagine if TAC infinites were revealed this morning, and you were facing them in tournament tonight. Feels good man.

    With regard to undizzy specifically I just don't like the overlap with IPS and Undizzy. It's like Flash Kick and Shoryu on the same character (or five shotos on the same game, for that matter). They're not exactly the same, but they're similar enough that having them together grinds my gears.
    Vulpes wrote: »
    It's the only saving grace, harsher IPS is NOT cutting it in any way (unless you allow it to trigger in the middle of chains..)

    If IPS really can't get the job done (and I remain unconvinced of this) then I don't know why it's even in the game. All it does now is make the combos technically not repetitive*. I say "technically" because the combos sure do look repetitive to me in a practical sense. Most of the BnBs even have the word "loop" in their name. Basically IPS is as successful at making combos less repetitive as Bill Clinton was at not having sex with an intern.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    If IPS really can't get the job done (and I remain unconvinced of this) then I don't know why it's even in the game. All it does now is make the combos technically not repetitive*. I say "technically" because the combos sure do look repetitive to me in a practical sense. Most of the BnBs even have the word "loop" in their name. Basically IPS is as successful at making combos less repetitive as Bill Clinton was at not having sex with an intern.
    This is my Parasoul BnB:


    If we had no IPS, my Parasoul BnB would be something like this:
    c.LK s.MP c.HP
    - j.MP j.HP j.HK
    s.MKx2 c.HP
    - j.MP j.HP j.HK
    s.MKx2 c.HP
    - j.MP j.HP j.HK
    s.LKx2 s.MKx2 s.HPx2 xx L.Tear
    s.LKx2 s.MP s.HPx2 xx Pillar

    SDE Filia with Undizzy rather than IPS would have been able to do
    c.LK s.MK s.HP
    - j.HK xx Hairball
    s.HP
    - j.HK xx Hairball
    s.HP
    - j.HK xx Hairball
    s.HP
    - j.HK xx Hairball
    s.HP
    - j.HK xx Hairball, j.MP
    s.LPx2 s.LK s.MP c.MK s.HK xx Updo xx Fenrir

    Just because combos are still partly repetitive, doesn't mean IPS doesn't prevent them from being completely bonkers.
    Why.
  • deice-deice- kimchi yokatta darou Joined: Posts: 596
    edited August 2013
    I was personally toying with the idea that it could work out if IPS just got a lot stricter and stricter. First no track, then track but no trigger, then trigger on first hit of chain, then trigger on second hit of chain, then trigger on any repeated attack used.

    I kind of dislike Undizzy myself. Its a "duplicate" system, that tries to place an arbitrary limit on combos. Its basically a glorified "Maximum Combo Length", but tries to take into account strengths of attacks and resets. I feel simpler mechanics are better. But I don't have any concrete improvements to say, beyond "tweak IPS somehow".

    But I can live with undizzy if its here to stay, it doesn't make a huge difference, aside from the fact its sometimes hard to predict when it triggers if you didn't do a completely canned combo. But its not like I hit that limit in matches anyway :P

    Edit: Hmm, I wonder how it would work if there would be two buffers monitored by IPS. First would be the way it is now, the other would prevent re-using any attacks in back-to-back chains. That way "loops" would have to be at least two alternating chains. I suppose it would be too complex.
    SSF4: Juri BBCSEX: Λ-11 AH3: Nazuna MBAACC: F-Hime SG: Valentine/Squigly/Parasoul
    本番はこれからだったのに, もう限界? - honban wa korekara datta no ni, mou genkai?
  • HASJHASJ Joined: Posts: 179
    Dude wrote: »
    HASJ wrote: »
    Can anyone explain undizzy to me? Is that the green IPS?

    Undizzy is the green IPS.

    "..."

    If the combo stops before 350 the undizzy value will decay back to zero over time. It takes a maximum of 60 frames (1 second) for anything greater than 350 to return to zero. Additionally, knockdown recoveries immediately put undizzy back to zero, and counter-hitting someone with undizzy also resets it to zero (EDIT: turns out this isn't the case). Sliding knockdowns do NOT reset undizzy to zero.

    Undizzy decay immediately stops if the opponent is put into hit or block stun. The purpose of this is to make really long combo into reset into really long combo not possible, and to encourage early resets. Think of it as a way to appease both the long-combo fans and reset-heavy fans. People who prefer to just do the long combos can still do them, but must let their opponent have a chance at neutral before doing another one. People who really like to go for resets (which can be very oppressive in this game) have to go for more than just two resets if they wanna kill, giving the opponent a few more chances to guess right and escape.

    Yeah, I had figured the purpose of it. Thanks.
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Iron-Man now has nothing.
  • evilweevleevilweevle Xbox GT : MrFossy Joined: Posts: 4,275
    yea watching those vids that vulpes posted didnt really seem like new IPS/undizzy has affected the combo length at all. you can still get away with 1 reset and then dead character.

    new parasoul combos look swag though.
    3DS friend code : 0232 8273 2994
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    I truly think the undizzy system is close to being good to go. I'd probably lower the limit over starting accumulation at stage three, see how that works, then maybe increase the max decay rate by half a second. Though I also wonder if all that really needs to happen is to allow activation as soon as the limit is reached. That seems to me a pretty major loophole that people are already learning to exploit (eg. that PW combo that Vulpes posted)

    and to be fair, @evilweevil, your Fortune + Bella BnB is probably one of the things that will be affected. :p
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,476
    Vulpes wrote: »
    Just because combos are still partly repetitive, doesn't mean IPS doesn't prevent them from being completely bonkers.

    IPS is easily the most complex chaining system in a fighting game I have ever been exposed to. We used to have an entire thread on here just for answering questions about how IPS works. Until now I get PMs on my SG tutorial videos asking me how I was able to make my combos not trigger IPS. I am willing to pay that complexity price for an all-in-one system that both limits the length of combos and makes them less repetitive than they otherwise would be. I am less receptive to having all that complexity in exchange for a system of combos that are "partly repetitive, but not completely bonkers". It's like paying double the price for a pizza that still tastes bad, but is not completely inedible.
    deice- wrote: »
    Its basically a glorified "Maximum Combo Length"

    I almost forgot that in any undizzy discussion, I need to point out that undizzy is the same as "Maximum Damage", except it counts an invisible imaginary number instead of life. Who knew we'd be borrowing design elements from Mortal Kombat of all places?
    evilweevle wrote: »
    yea watching those vids that vulpes posted didnt really seem like new IPS/undizzy has affected the combo length at all.

    Obviously the solution is adding yet another system to the game that overlaps with an already existing feature. Maybe throw same-move-proration into the mix, but of course we'd need to exempt Fortune's head from that rule because what could possibly go wrong?

    In any case, I'll check in on the forums from time to time and try playing the game again in a few weeks. Maybe I'll feel better about it then. Even if I don't I'll give it another chance when the console version drops. If I still am not having fun by then I'll be a sad panda.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    IPS is easily the most complex chaining system in a fighting game I have ever been exposed to. We used to have an entire thread on here just for answering questions about how IPS works. Until now I get PMs on my SG tutorial videos asking me how I was able to make my combos not trigger IPS.
    That was 99.9% because the system was actually fucked up and glitched in a million places.

    The new fixed IPS (which just advances stage per chain, rather than going by states) is a LOT simpler to understand,
    as it doesn't seem to have any glitches or exceptions (at least from what we've been trying out so far).

    I don't think this is an actual issue anymore.
    Why.
  • cammyfucammyfu Joined: Posts: 48
    I assume the undizzy cool-down is to promote shorter combos and resetting intelligently instead of being brain-dead, by giving you competing considerations of letting it cool-down (giving your opponent more chance to guard) and getting the tightest reset timing but losing out on damage?

    If that interpretation is correct, how about a combo-stage cool-down, losing 1 combo stage every 12 frames instead of instantly going to zero?
  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 759
    edited August 2013
    I remember MikeZ saying on a salty stream that a stricter IPS would actually limit combos to lengths that he wanted but he chose to go with undizzy because it allowed for more combo freedom.

    Personally, it will be quite some time before I get to play the updated version, but what I'm dreading isn't IPS, but the assist lockout thing. Could anybody explain the specifics of it? Because it sounds awful to me right now. Also, does anyone remember why it was added in its current form? I'd really appreciate hearing that

    Anyway, If an armored assist absorbs a hit does that equal a lockout? I have been using Bell's lock & load as my lead assist character lately...
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    I remember MikeZ saying on a salty stream that a stricter IPS would actually limit combos to lengths that he wanted but he chose to go with undizzy because it allowed for more combo freedom.

    Personally, it will be quite some time before I get to play the updated version, but what I'm dreading isn't IPS, but the assist lockout thing. I find it just plain lame that any hit equals lockout. I wouldn't mind it being just on snapbacks, because then there would some sort of decision making process involved. I don't mined assists being human shields and I don't mind there being very liberal use of assists. I will reserve my final judgement until I get to experience it myself of course, but it sounds bad right now. Does anyone remember why it was added in its current form? I'd really appreciate hearing that

    Anyway, If an armored assist absorbs a hit does that equal a lockout? I have been using Bell's lock & load as my lead assist character lately...

    You're correct about combo freedom and strict IPS. But "always stage 5" was not anywhere close to what strict IPS would've needed to be.

    Yes, hitting armor = lockout.

    I never heard why it was added. But I'd assume it was added to promote smarter assist calls. Maybe also as a way to buff solos?

    I personally don't mind it. I've been able to get full punish combos on people who tried getting in a quick jab on my assists. And it makes neutral in team vs team a bit more fun, since you want to be careful about your assist getting locked by the opponent's assist in certain matchups. I think it's added some depth (in a good way) that wasn't there before.
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    Assist lockout is one of the best things with the new patch. Should be longer.
    No more retarded nonstop assist mashing, now one has to actually think before one calls them. How sad?
    Why.
  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 759
    edited August 2013
    Dude wrote: »

    You're correct about combo freedom and strict IPS. But "always stage 5" was not anywhere close to what strict IPS would've needed to be.

    Yes, hitting armor = lockout.

    I never heard why it was added. But I'd assume it was added to promote smarter assist calls. Maybe also as a way to buff solos?

    I personally don't mind it. I've been able to get full punish combos on people who tried getting in a quick jab on my assists. And it makes neutral in team vs team a bit more fun, since you want to be careful about your assist getting locked by the opponent's assist in certain matchups. I think it's added some depth (in a good way) that wasn't there before.


    I'm can see where your coming from, but I am not sure if I like that any hit equals lockout.

    I wouldn't mind it being just on snapbacks, because then there would some sort of decision making process involved. This would mean that you recognized that you were hitting an assist and then you made the concious decision to lock them out when you pay the meter. That's why double snaps work the way they do, yes?

    I don't mind assists being human shields, especially when it comes to armored assists. The whole point of using an armored assist is that it will absorb something like a projectile hit or two. If you intend for the assist to be hit, then how is that a bad call?

    Say someone really is making mindless assist calls then the opponent should have been able to pick up on that and punish anyway and you avoid making bad calls yourself by just thinking ahead. I don't see an added penalty as necessary.

    Basically I wonder if this will add a little too much risk but once again, I not really able to test it out. I will reserve my final judgement until I get to experience it myself, but I'm not sure it needs to be there based just playing the previous versions.
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,234
    I agree with your sentiments asterisk. I dont necessarily mind assist lockout..
    But i just dont necessarily agree with how it is implemented... Its just another one of those mechanics that tries to invite "skill" into the game but ends up being better for some characters than others. Ie peacock will be able to hit other people assists much easier than oh say... Painwheel would be able to.... Cause of course peacock has alot more ranged tools to do that than painwheel does. And even if we did something not smart like making it so that only physical hits caused lockout... That would help out the upclose characters and shaft peacock.

    The solution is simple and obvious and disliked for its simplicity and obviousness:

    Give all assist calls more cooldown. It does what the current lockout does which is force smarter assist call decisions, but it doesnt favor any character archetype over any other.


    And to that end, the ips and undizzy are still allowing for longer than what is generally wanted combos... I wonder if anyone is going to finally come around and realize that a static timer combined with ips is the best way to solve this problem... Probably not cause hardheaded people are hardheaded. But yes, it is by far the best solution. No other solutions have worked. And stricter ips kills combo creativity which in itself kills neutral depth cause neutral tends to revolve around combo starters, there threat, and where they can be done from and not done from.

    But it is interesting to see people wack themselves on the head over and over again trying to find a solution. I for one hope they do, but i hope that it is in my lifetime.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,476
    Vulpes wrote: »
    The new fixed IPS (which just advances stage per chain, rather than going by states) is a LOT simpler to understand

    I will take your word for this, but if I fire up the game next week and encounter any funny business with IPS I will sigh, shake my head and then send you a formal letter of complaint by PM. It may or may not be strongly worded.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I wonder if anyone is going to finally come around and realize that a static timer combined with ips is the best way to solve this problem.

    I'm still on the strict IPS + nothing else bandwagon, but if Mike ever tries it and it flops I shall join your club. We could build a tree house and have meetings. Implement a shifting schedule for complaining on the forums. It'll be great.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    Vulpes wrote: »
    The new fixed IPS (which just advances stage per chain, rather than going by states) is a LOT simpler to understand

    I will take your word for this, but if I fire up the game next week and encounter any funny business with IPS I will sigh, shake my head and then send you a formal letter of complaint by PM. It may or may not be strongly worded.
    Haha if you find weird IPS interactions, please post them! I'd be very curious.
    I wouldn't mind it being just on snapbacks, because then there would some sort of decision making process involved. This would mean that you recognized that you were hitting an assist and then you made the concious decision to lock them out when you pay the meter.
    So the opponent calls assists in a stupid way..
    And you can punish that..
    With 1 meter, for no damage, and via 'whiffing' a move that has a superflash

    Wow.

    Yeah, enjoy losing a character for snapping out an assist.
    Say someone really is making mindless assist calls then the opponent should have been able to pick up on that and punish anyway and you avoid making bad calls yourself by just thinking ahead. I don't see an added penalty as necessary.
    Did you watch any SG play ever
    SDE was just jumparound-assistcall, pray for it to hit, confirm into combo
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Give all assist calls more cooldown. It does what the current lockout does which is force smarter assist call decisions, but it doesnt favor any character archetype over any other.
    This actually sounds nice, but I'd rather have it on top of the assist lockout.
    Why.
  • blufangblufang Devour! Joined: Posts: 4,487
    edited August 2013
    I don't mean to interrupt the sophisticated conversation about IPS, but I had a simple question that I'm sure someone would know the solution to.

    I see when I play some opponents that they get to choose from 18 different colors for their character, but I'm limited to just pressing different strengths of attack to getting a color (6 colors then I assume, unless pressing two or three buttons at once leads to different colors?) Anyways how do u get all 18 colors? The faq says how to get 10 colors, but when these are unlocked how do u choose them?

    Also what is considered beginner as far as lobbies are concerned? I'm getting kicked out of beginner lobbies often. I'm definitely not intermediate level.

    Edit: Sorry one more question. It is probably a long while til Eliza comes, but I played through everyone's story mode and like Valentine and Parasoul most. Who would make a better third for my current team of Squigly/Ms Fortune?




  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,234
    blufang wrote: »

    Edit: Sorry one more question. It is probably a long while til Eliza comes, but I played through everyone's story mode and like Valentine and Parasoul most. Who would make a better third for my current team of Squigly/Ms Fortune?

    If you want to run squigly and fortune in that order then parasoul is by far the better choice for a third cause you get a variety of good assists to use with her and good assists are VERY important for the 3rd character to have.

    If however you are going for any order then val becomes possible to use. Put her in front with fortune second and fortune with hk fiber upper (alpha counter out to fiber upper into fullcombo if val has to block any upclose stuff) and use squigly at anchor with that spear assist. Or one of her lockdown assists. Val/fortune is the first part of omniscythes team with double at the back. He won the online beta tournament so you are off to a good start there. Squigly may or may not work, but you asked the question with limited characters so thats how i would throw them in a team.

    I personally wouldnt put val at second or third cause of how bad her assists are. That alone is the one reason why val is almost always seen as the first character of any teams she is on... Her assists are generally to weak to be relied upon.

    Gettin' my derp on.
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    edited August 2013
    1. Press Start to select your character and you get into Colour Selection mode. There you also see the various button combinations necessary to select the respective palettes (yes, there are combinations)
    2. No idea, I sometimes join beginner lobbies when I'm fooling around or testing something, I tend to win everything but I have yet to get kicked for it. If you don't think you're Intermediate, just keep joining Beginner Lobbies.
    3. Both work *really* well with that 2nd/3rd. Valentine probably better, but Parasoul is just fine.

    E: Oh wait, did you mean "third" as in "The anchor" or just "The third character"? Both Val and Para should be point if added to that team (making it eg Val/Sqg/Fort)
    Why.
  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 759
    edited August 2013
    Also, I agree with Dime_x. If want to do something like this, you should probably just increase the cool down on assists. I would probably prefer that neither happened but increased cool down is the better of the two in my opinion.

    Again I haven't tried the new update yet, this is just me speculating.

    edit: Useless/ redundant statements deleted
    Post edited by AsteriskBlue on
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    Dime_x wrote: »
    No other solutions have worked. And stricter ips kills combo creativity which in itself kills neutral depth cause neutral tends to revolve around combo starters, there threat, and where they can be done from and not done from.

    But it is interesting to see people wack themselves on the head over and over again trying to find a solution. I for one hope they do, but i hope that it is in my lifetime.

    You make it sound like undizzy tweaks have been completely exhausted and will never work. I've said it two or three times already, but I don't mind saying it again (to everyone)...

    1) reduce undizzy limit to at least 280
    -or-
    1b) start undizzy accumulation at stage three (would force more early resets, but might be too early)

    2) Allow undizzy to initiate in the middle of chains. This is currently one of those built-in exceptions that people always use to break combo systems, and we're seeing it already. Just look at that PW combo that Vulpes posted. It gets past 400 then goes to a DHC. This will be the norm for as long as undizzy bursts are not allowed in the middle of chains.

    And of course you could always do some combination of these.

    The undizzy system is fine at its core. It just needs some numbers tweaked.
  • cammyfucammyfu Joined: Posts: 48
    Am I being snubbed? Nobody commented on my suggestion. Tell me what's wrong with it.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,234
    cammyfu wrote: »
    Am I being snubbed? Nobody commented on my suggestion. Tell me what's wrong with it.


    No you are not being snubbed. Yes your first presumption is mostly correct. I dont know how your idea to add a decay to ips would fare.. But i believe it would be alot like current undizzy decay.


    Now to my end, i dont mind the game as it is right now in sde. There are a few small bothersome things like meter gain being so highly different for different characters, pbgc making no balanced sense in my mind and the fact that there are SUPER LONG combos like what sev was using on evo, and the fact that its way to easy to mash invincible assist and go into full combo from hitting with that assist... But other than those things i love the way current sde skullgirls plays. I dont have ANY problem with resets being "braindead" at all. Its a fighting game after all...i do have a huge problem with reset undizzy decay... I think its a stupid idea to try and make resets not so good... But i dont think great resets are a problem at all so of course im biased
    One thing i do think is that if the combos are going to get drastically shortened in the future... I want them to continue doing around the amount of damage they do now. This would actually help neutral as well cause instead of having to make everything do little damage so that glancing non hitconfirmed blows mean little, it would mean that those same attacks would start to mean much more.


    Case in point: right now i do a fireball with painwheel, it takes approximately 40 or so of these to kill in 3v3 (i cant remember the actual amount, but its alot) now lets say that the games combos were reduced drastically to the pint where 3-4 hit combos are the longest that we could do and that those 3 it combos do almost 50% damage.... That would mean that most single hit pokes would be doing around 20% damage everytime they hit... Obviously now they are something that has to be respected cause its quite possible to die from them.

    Thats a long winded way to say that damage affects the neutral game... But there it is.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    cammyfu wrote: »
    Am I being snubbed? Nobody commented on my suggestion. Tell me what's wrong with it.

    Too hard to keep track of, and combos would have to be different depending on where in the IPS decay you hit someone. Also, starting a combo at stage 5 still allows really long combos (almost as long as from stage one). That's why strict IPS wasnt implemented in the first place. Also, it'd do nothing to stop the insanely long DHC combos that were possible in SDE.

    Undizzy decay is fine. Max undizzy just needs a lower limit.
  • DudeDude Joined: Posts: 199
    And @Dime_x, undizzy decay doesn't make resets worse. It just makes the player have to go for some earlier resets (in theory anyway. Obviously max undizzy is currently too high for any of this to currently matter). The resets themselves are still oppressive, and you will never activate undizzy before stage 5.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,234
    @dude

    I understand your logic and what you are saying, but i dont agree at all. I cant take the sum of reset damage over a given amount of time, acknowledge that those resets lead to less damage than before, and come up with an answer that resets are still as good as they used to be.

    I see your argument as strawman. I dont really know if it is and im not going to take the time to look it up, but you are definitely taking what i said and throwing new parameters on it. I mean you can argue about the RESETS THEMSELVES being just as good as they ever were, but you are purposefully being misleading there by not acknowledging that "the reset game" is justifiably and demonstrably weaker. When i say that resets are weaker i am obviously talking about reset game and strategy, not the reset themselves.

    Now i havent played the current pc version, but i did have undizzy blow me out of the water a couple of times. I know exactly what the routes i took were and i know that the undizzy will happen again every time in that build if i use that exact same route. That makes that combo into that exact reset much weaker.


    As ive said before i dont have a problem with the resets as they are, the damage that they give, or their ease of use. My primary problem is the big 3 things giving combos or combo extensions in the first place:

    Tag combos into second full combo
    Dhc into second full combo (with an 80% reset in damage to boot! Sheesh)
    Invincible assists into otg full combo


    These are the only real problems i have with the game. And i personally think that if they nerfed all these aspects of the game, they WOULD NOT NEED TO resort to all of the craziness via undizzy and convoluted measures that they currently do.


    Feel free to disagree but i dont particularly feel like arguing the point past this. Ive had my mind trained on the big 3 that i listed, for a long time now.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,476
    Dime_x wrote: »
    My primary problem is the big 3 things giving combos or combo extensions in the first place:

    Tag combos into second full combo
    Dhc into second full combo (with an 80% reset in damage to boot! Sheesh)
    Invincible assists into otg full combo

    Before any kind of change log was in place I was of the opinion that the transition to another character (via DHC or tag) for a second full combo was the only thing that needed to be changed in the game. On a more light-hearted note, here is a series of images that perfectly illustrates my feelings on the combo system evolution:
    15coocm.jpg
    Undizzy

    16kb49i.jpg
    IPS

    ac6fk6.jpg
    Undizzy + IPS
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • blufangblufang Devour! Joined: Posts: 4,487
    Thx everyone for the advice, I chose Parasoul...I really like the range on her moves and her napalm projectiles. Anyways I know this is probably a total scrub question, but Peacock? How do u deal with the flurry of ground projectiles, air projectiles, and weights? If u get hit by anything she Argus which pushes u all the way back to the opposite side of screen. The chip damage adds up really quickly, and it is quite stressful I feel I have to rush towards her as fast as possible cause I am constantly losing health (chip or otherwise). Then when I get there it is nice, but there is a terrible feeling of desperation that a single mistake and I'm back at the opposite side of the screen again.




  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,476
    blufang wrote: »
    I know this is probably a total scrub question, but Peacock? How do u deal with the flurry of ground projectiles, air projectiles, and weights?

    Don't panic. Calmly evaluate your opponent and check for patterns. Figure out your character's best method of approach. The best ways are different for each character. For example Parasoul's bike goes through projectiles, disrupting her patterns and giving you an opportunity to approach. Valentine's air dash goes above many of Peacock's projectiles. Painwheel can fly. Some characters have better tools for this than others, but everyone has something. Learn your character's options and pick the right one depending on the situation.

    Don't be discouraged if you lose a few rounds initially. Long-range characters are just tough to deal with for new players. You may need to use training mode to simulate some of the tighter projectile patterns and figure out how to break through them. Eventually you'll get the hang of it.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,234
    @blufang

    Well that is kinda a loaded question. There is no right or wrong answer to deal with peacock, there is no way that will always work. There are however things that can make peacocks life much harder ill try and list them as well as list how peacock actually keeps people away:

    Things that give peacock troubles:

    1. Generally speaking, any fast projectile/horizontal assist (parasoul bike or hp napalm shot, double hornet bomber). While peacock has loads of projectiles to beat the assist... She cant necessarily play just to beat that assist since the point is also there trying to get in. This means that generally speaking she will want to jump away. Her best jump aways are usually her jump hk xx airdash back variants... These generally get blown up by a projectile assist. So basically projectile assists called smartly can really put a damper on peacocks runaway game since they cover peacocks backdash and her single jump air backdash.

    2. Another peacock... Yeah its obvious, but sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

    3.dash/run empty jump: this is over all the best movement to use to move towards peacock. Dash jump moves farther forward than regualr jump and will more than likely advance much further on average against peacock than ground dashing will. Call out a horizontal assist while doing this to cover both angles thus making sure that she has a difficult time avoiding both the assist and the point. Ie if she blocks the assist you have an advantage, if she blocks the point, you have an advantage... This is assuming of course that 1 of either gets through.

    4 character specific strategies:

    Bella can reflect peacock projectiles as well as armor through them
    Squigly can use her sing plus assist to move peacock towards her, squigly can use her long range low move to track peacock on the ground and hit her.
    Filia can hairball over peacocks projectiles and hairball into peacocks dead zone
    Filia can try and trade with her ringlet to knock peacock down and can also use ranged ringlets to anticipate peacock doing jumpback hk xx airdashback and hit peacock as shes coming down
    Val can call assist while doing savage bypass, val can double jump then airdash over peacocks projectiles, val read peacocks jump back patterns and run/ advance towards on the ground while peacock is using j.hk
    Painwheel can fly over peacocks projectiles
    Parasoul can use her bike, her shield soldier, her tears or her napalm shots to try and slow peacock down
    Fortune can use smart head placement to force peacock into more passive or predictable play.


    So everyone has something. And when you combine assists into it you get some pretty decent anti peacock strategies like bella calling bike assist and then reflecting peacock projectile back at her and having bike pick her up for the free combo... Or like using sing assist to pull peacock towards your headless fortune and into pressure. Etc etc etc.


    Ways for peacock to keep away are:

    Teleport
    Jhk
    Lk bomb plus assist as AA.
    Airthrow
    J.hp
    Backdash and airbackdash
    Argus to push back to fullscreen.

    Im not going to list how to deal with all of these..
    But you should experiment yourself to figure out/theory fight up some counters to every one of those moves..
    Even if the counter isnt perfect, as long as it at least accomplishes something positive towards the objective of forcing peacock to block something or gaining you space towards her... Then it can't be bad. For instance, your opponent does j.hk xx dash back when they are already at fullscreen? Use that time to simply run or dash in and take up some of that precious space. She cant run forever and will eventually have to actually fight you or teleport out of the corner.. Just be ready for the teleport and she won't be so willing to corner herself anymore.


    Peacock is a tough cookie to beat but she isnt impossible as long as you have some patience to learn the fight and know what to look for. I main peacock double and painwheel and one of my practice bipod dies mains peacock, so i know how frustrating the fight is from either side.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Darklightjg1Darklightjg1 Dr. SuessLight Joined: Posts: 3,653
    edited August 2013
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    So what does everyone think of the new version? I'll be honest and say that I haven't touched the game in a while. Partly because I'm still unhappy about undizzy, and partly because losing my fire for SG has reignited my competitive spirit for Magic the Gathering. I've been too busy with MtG tournaments to play much else.

    Very annoying that my old Fortune universal bnb is too inconsistent now (and it has nothing to do with the IPS changes either). Luckily I managed to make up a new universal one that results in more damage, but it's harder to do and builds less meter overall.

    -Speaking of building meter: Why on earth does the opponent build significantly more meter from getting hit during a combo than the player who opened him up and is doing all the hitting? I didn't notice it until today but that makes zero sense to me.

    -Cerebella's lvl 3 needs to be punishable on block. It's a very dumb lvl 3 and people just run up and do it randomly with no penalty. My friend told me it was getting changed but I'm not seeing it in this build. That and her lvl 1 grab super might as well be a level 3 due to how ridiculous the damage is (especially if you DHC it to either Filia or Fortune's actual lvl 3... it does over 9500 each... wtf man). Lock and Load assist is also stupid etc. Can you tell I just got done fighting that broad?

    -Extra levels on Valentine's poison vials is nice I guess.

    -I love the new stages and music.

    -I like the lobbies too, but I was kind of hoping for a spectator mode to be included in that (or basically the "winner stays" arcade rotation style with the people waiting able to watch the match).
    Post edited by Darklightjg1 on
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