The New Elena Thread

skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!?Joined: Posts: 961
EDIT 2/20/06: Added a miscellaneous section.
EDIT 2/28/06: Updated the 'normals' section, and something about Scratch Wheel in the Special Moves section.
EDIT: 3/25/06: Added a few combos reccomended to me in the thread, plus the J. Mp -> J. Hp option I noticed from watching Combofiend. Seems so OBVIOUS, now...Why didn't I ever think of that? Such a nice combo, too...
EDIT: 6/13/06: Added the 'Turtling Game' part of the strategy section.

I decided to make an Elena thread, similar to the Sean thread I made...mostly cos I figured if I made a Sean thread and I don't even play Sean, I should probably try making one for the character I use primarily. I know there's some good Elena players around here, so feel free to throw ideas my way, or correct me if you think I'm wrong. Anywho, here we goooo...


A. Normals I like to use

I think Elena has a lot of really useless normals. That seems to be more common in this game than in other games; I'm not really sure why. But, in any case, here are the normals I use...some, more often than others:

1. S.Lk - Cos sometimes, it's just nice to have a standing normal that cancels into stuff. In any case, I don't use this very much.

2. C. Lk - This move is kinda funny. It can go under fireballs at point blank (not all that useful), and it can combo into EX Spin Scythe or SA2. In fact, it's her only low cancelable normal. It's really a shame that this one is really hard to hit confirm, but in any case, it's probably good to know about it.

3. S. Mp - One of my other less-frequently-used normals, this one is nice when your opponent jumps in from too close to use Back Roundhouse effectively, and I don't have enough time to dash under my opponent.

4. C.Mp - This one is nice. It's got almost as long of range as C. Mk (on characters with straighter stances, there really is no difference, and on characters with less-straighter stances like Chun-Li, the difference is negligable), it's actually pretty nice anti-air, and it's her only hit-confirmable move. This one's very important.

5. F+Mp Overhead - It's an overhead. It's a little slower, or maybe as fast as her UOH, but the range on it is quite long, and it doesn't move her forward at all. I use this one less than her F+Mk Overhead, but this one has its uses, mainly in countering slow crouching attacks.

6. S. Mk - This isn't half bad for stopping special moves that move your opponents forward (Hurricane Kicks). Other than that, I don't use it.

7. F+Mk Overhead - Oh man...I love this move. It's got about the same range as the F+Mp Overhead (surprisingly; I thought this move had much better range), and it comes out waaay faster. The only trouble with this move is that it recovers a bit slower, and it moves Elena forward, which can put her in trouble sometimes...If this move gets parried, you're in a lot of trouble. Just learn when it's safe to follow up and when it isn't, and you'll be fine.

8. S.Hk - One of Elena's important normals for her defense. This one send Elena forward, and can go over some low attacks. This beats quite a lot of stuff on ground AND air, but is VERY slow to recover, and the range isn't quite as long as it looks. Use this if you're sure your opponent is gonna attack, so you can counter it. Otherwise, use it in close proximity. If you whiff this, it's GONNA hurt. Another thing...While this can be used as anti-air, you don't wanna use it as anti-air on closer jump-ins. Stick to S. Mp for that kinda stuff!

9. B+Hk - The other important defense normal. B. Hk moves Elena slightly backwards, giving her throw invulnerability. Is also goes over a lot of low attacks. As if that wasn't enough, it has crazy priority (better than normal S. Hk!), and does crazy large amounts of stun. Just like S. Hk, you don't wanna use this on close jump-ins, so watch out. Be sure to use her Hks along with S. Mp and C. Mp for a surprisingly solid defensive game.

10. C. Hk - A quick sweep that's pretty effective at far ranges, and even goes under fireballs on occassion. Going under fireballs isn't very practical, but it can be useful to remember. This move comes out pretty fast, and is surpsingly safe on block, considering you didn't do it too close to the opponent.

11. OC.Hk - A sliding kick that knocks down and has decent range. While the range is better than her C. Hk sweep, it's not really a lot safer, and you can't abuse it quite as much as some people's slide kicks (Dhalsim or Guy, anyone?). The range isn't quite as long as it looks (her foot doesn't actually hit the opponent), and it can whiff pretty easily. If it does whiff, btw, you're screwed - this move has horrible recovery time. Be sure to use this only when you've got a clear shot.

12. J.Mp - I use this when I'm going to jump up and immediately try and hit someone out of the air, especially because you can link it into J.Hp. This can also be useful when someone tries to parry the attack, but don't rely on that to help you very much, because once someone learns that trick, it's not very dangerous anymore. Just remind your opponent every once in a while. Overall, I stick to using it as a surprise manuver.

13. J.Hk - This is a nice, nice move. It's good anti-air, it's a good jump-in, it can be easily followed up with a combo, and it can hit either once or twice. It's good to try and learn how you can control that (because you can to an extent) to try and fool people that whore parries all day. This is a nice way to screw up their rhythm, and I prefer it move than J.Mp -> J.Hp because it's more ambiguous.

14. J.Lp and J.Mk - I guess I should mention these, since they're her crossups...but I don't use them. Oddly enough, you can link these two moves, but you can't do it when you cross up. I don't ever go for crossups with Elena, though.


B. Special Moves

Elena has great special moves...but none of them are particularly safe unless you use the EX versions...that's just my opinion, though. The normal versions can be nice when used in combos, but that's about the extent to which I use them. In any case...

1. Spin Scythe - Sigh...this move would be really nice in any game without parrying...but I guess there's no point in wondering what that would be like. Pretty much any person you play against will not fall for any of the built in tricks of Spin Scythe (additional hits, Hk Spin Scythe ticks), and none of the normal versions will combo in from any move you do. Thusly, you have to resort to EX. EX Spin Scythe, though, is very nice; it's the staple of all her B&B combos. More on that later, I suppose...

2. Scratch Wheel - I think I have a rather unpopular opinion of this move, as a lot of people like the normal versions. I think that none of the normal versions are particularly safe outside of a combo; Short and Forward Scratch Wheels won't even hit jumping opponents right next to you if they're on their way up. Wtf? I have no idea which of Elena's limbs actually hit. Roundhouse Scratch Wheel is move effective in this way, but it still has its problems. Even if Forward Scratch Wheel has some invincible frames on startup, I think there's much better, safer options overall for anti-air. I use the EX Scratch Wheel as a Reversal attack sometimes (it's her safest option, which isn't saying much, unfortunately), and I use the Short and Roundhouse Scratch Wheel in her various combos.

Actually, I found one very random use for Short Scratch Wheel: It makes a good Psychic DP attack when you use it in her wakeup game. What I mean is, for example, say you use F. Mk overhead and it gets blocked. Elena and her opponent recover at about the same time. Your opponent will naturally want to try and attack you, so you can just go for the Short Scratch Wheel and knock em down again. Of course, wakeup game is all about reading your opponents and training them, but should the occassion arise, this is an option at your disposal. ...Oh yeah, and if they block the Scratch Wheel, you're still in range for a Kara Throw. >:D

3. Rhino Horn - I don't think I need to say much about this...The Short and Forward versions are safe when blocked, but are also slow, predictable, and the Short version doesn't travel very far. Let's not even get into the fact that NO Rhino Horn hits crouching opponents. It's my opinion that outside of combos, you shouldn't even be using Rhino Horn to hit grounded opponents, anyways. Outside of combos, I use EX Rhino Horn in a similar fashion to Alex's EX Slash Elbow; that is, I use it Psychic DP style to punish people that jump backwards (or even forwards sometimes, but much less frequently). Other than that, I just use the EX version in some of her combos.

4. Mallet Smash - I used to like this move a lot, until I found out how great her command Overheads were. You can link the normal versions of this move into Scratch Wheels on crouching opponents, but if that's the only time you ever used Mallet Smash, that might get a little predictable. You can do the same thing using EX Mallet Smash on standing opponents, though I don't think that's very practical, either. I use Mallet Smash only in certain combos, and to psyche people out by using it to cross-up, but that's not something you should be doing very often. Suffice to say, I don't use this move very much.

5. Lynx Tail - ...Has anyone EVER found a good reason to use this move? I think NO version of this move is practical. No normal version combos in from anything, and the EX Version frequently whiffs, not to mention there's easier ways of knocking an opponent down that deal more damage. Don't even bother with this move.


C. Which SA?

Boy...this is pretty hotly debated. First, let's start with something everyone can probably agree on:

SA1 (Spinning Beat) is not very good.

Yeah? We can all agree on that, right? Cool. The BIG debate usually comes with which SA is better between SA2 (Brave Dance) and SA3 (Healing). Personally, I am an SA3 fan, and I think I'm the only Elena player I know that primarily uses Healing. Now, trying to use empirical evidence, here's why I think SA3 is better than SA2:

1. You can deal damage comparable to SA2 by using EX combos.

- SA2 alone does 56 damage; C. Mp XX SA2 (the B&B using SA2) does 65 damage (FYI, all my damage data in this spiel is based on Ryu). Now, let's take a look at some combos you can do without Brave Dance...

- C. Mp XX EX Spin Scythe, Lk Scratch Wheel does 54 damage. Not bad for a combo you can do 3 times (technically 4 times, cos the C. Mps and Scratch Wheels will give you enough to do an extra one) with SA3, huh? You can do this combo anywhere on the screen, and, if you were able to land it that many times, it will do near 100% damage to most of the cast (It WILL do 100% damage to characters with lower vitality, like...I dunno...Yun and Chun-Li? Yang and Akuma? :D). It's really not hard to build enough meter to do this combo, and you can use it without worrying about ruining any chance you might get%2
http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

"Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
"*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
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Comments

  • rikcrikc Joined: Posts: 521
    I didn't read the whole thing (I'll be able to later tonight), but I have to say I think you aren't giving enough focus to b.HK. That is pretty much her best "normal", imo. Invulnerable to throws and most crouching attacks, crazy priority, and great damage/stun make it one of her most important moves. Since it moves her back it is safe if blocked, too.
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    I forgot to mention the throw invulnerability, but I did mention everything else. It might not look like it cos I clumped it with the normal Roundhouse, but trust me; I don't underestimate Back Roundhouse at all :D
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • rikcrikc Joined: Posts: 521
    okay, whew!
  • SoundbwoySoundbwoy Think! Joined: Posts: 138
    I think you need to give the lynx tail a chance. I find very useful mixing it up with overheads and throws when an opponent is waking up. HK lynx also has sick range

    There are certian properties for cancelling c.lk into a SA. I'm able to pull this off better if I keep her still for a moment. Elena would be devastating if this could be done reliably.

    SA1 is effective against those pixies (yun/yang, Ibuki) and rushdown clowns.
    Ol' Dirty Kung Fu
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    shankin, i thought your analysis of elenas fight stance was pretty good i have shown this oddity to my frineds where it is possible to move forward across the entire screen just by pressing back,
    but i feel your anal-is-is of her normals and specials was to brief. i feel that every move has a use some just have a way more obvious use than others.
    also the reason alot of emphasis is put on SA2 is the hit confirmable-nissisty of hit off c.mp when an opponent sees that you never miss he/she (but most likely he) will think twice before rushing you
  • rikcrikc Joined: Posts: 521
    I love HK Lynx Tail when the opponent has no supers stocked. The range is just insane. If you use it from maximum range on a waking opponent and they block, you can usually parry their counter attack. This is because you're so far away that you've already recovered by the time their attack reaches you. You have to be careful against some opponents, of course, but if you do it right it is an awesome trick.

    I also like to use it to catch opponents who jump too much.
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    I'll try out some stuff with Lynx Tail, for sure...I don't tend to use it on wakeup, though, as Lynx Tail from max range is much too far for a Kara Throw, and I like keeping my mixup games as ambiguous as possible.

    As for the normals, I'll add more...I just started out with the ones that were less situational, and commonly very safe moves. I just haven't had much of a chance to edit it yet.

    I agree that SA1 and SA2 have their instances where they can be useful, but I'm convinced that SA3 is the superior super in pretty much every situation. The only time SA2 might be better is if you consistently land C. Mp at its very max range, because it won't combo into EX Spin Scythe properly from max range, but I don't find that to be a very common situation. Elena can dish out the same damage with her EX combos as she can with her supers, so it seems more logical in all cases to just go with SA3.

    But, if you guys want, I'll throw in some stuff about SA1 and SA2. I still think SA3 is the best. You still can dish out the exact same damage as SA2 combos without SA2.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • nozarexnozarex . Joined: Posts: 121
    in corner:
    c.mk EX Spin Scythe, mk spin scythe, EX rhino horn , hk rhino horn

    works on most characters, misses only the small ones (ibuki, yang, yun)
    not sure at the moment what version of the rhino horn would do the most damage but its quite a good combo:)
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    I've never been able to land that combo on anyone...I believe you, but I wonder how practical it really is? Can you let me know how much damage it does on Ryu, if you have the PS2/XBox version and training mode?
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • nozarexnozarex . Joined: Posts: 121
    it does 75 on ryu
    i can post you a video to see the timing if you want
  • rikcrikc Joined: Posts: 521
    Next time I play, I think I am going to try SA3
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    That'd be cool if you could, nozarex. If anything, I'd like to just see it. I can get the Mp Spin Scythe pretty consistently, but I can never tack on any Rhino Horn afterwards. :/

    rikc: Good luck with SA3! :D
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • nozarexnozarex . Joined: Posts: 121
    here the video

    im sorry for the bad qulity...well the video is even running faster than the game normaly is, but i think it will help you:)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    learning to do that combo in the corner isn't game breaking but it is mos def an inportant weapon to whip out when it's needed
    as far as it being hard to do ,yea it is i can only do it about 50/50 in a real match, and when people see you do it it is pretty damn cool,
    it does work on every char but some timing modification has to be made for some of them
    for some chars like yun yand alex ibuki, Q chun and i think but am not sure of oro you can do the lk spin sythe, it won't do as much damage but the timing is easier
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I just wanted to say that this was a really good FAQ. After reading it, I think I'm going to start using Elena, super art III version, because she seems like a cool character, and I also like picking characters that no one else uses. I already printed out the FAQ and practiced some combos today.
  • rikcrikc Joined: Posts: 521
    I just wanted to say that this was a really good FAQ. After reading it, I think I'm going to start using Elena, super art III version, because she seems like a cool character, and I also like picking characters that no one else uses. I already printed out the FAQ and practiced some combos today.


    Join ussssss

    Though I personally couldn't get into SA3. If you aren't having much success, give SA2 a shot.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Yeah, SAII seems to be easier. Particularly because I'm having a hard time doing her EX combos on the control pad... However, the healing factor is the thing that kind of makes Elena worth picking... If I was going to use SAII, then why not just pick SAIII Dudley who has more combos off a super art, that are easier to do, and that do more damage, considering that Dudley also has the better mix up? Or if I REALLY wanted to join the Darkside, I could pick SAII Chun Li who many people think does virtually everything better than SAII Elena (other than EX moves which do reduce the need for SAII)?

    With SAIII though, Elena has a playing style that can't be outdone by the rest of the cast... It gives her a style that's original, and that's really the thing that makes her attractive to pick. I didn't really know how good SAIII or her EX combos were until I read this thread though... If I could get good with executing the EX moves, I think her style would work well for me.

    It's kind of like Hugo and SAI vs. SAIII. On paper, arguably SAIII is the better Super Art and it's certainly easier to use consistently, but most Hugo players still like the 720 since it adds to Hugo's intimidation factor and makes him more of a unique character... Likewise, healing and fancy EX combos are the things that make Elena cool and unique.
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    I'm glad my Elena thread has inspired you! Damn, now I wish people liked 3S where I lived, so I could really finish this thread and do it justice. :/ Anyways, I hope you stick with it. When I started playing 3S with my friends who were all good and shit, they told me to stop using SA3, and to stop using ELENA, actually; they told me that based on my playing style in other games, I'd be best suited to use Dudley. Well, I never still never learned Dudley, and now I never hear any flak anymore about my Elena SA3, mostly because I can hang with everyone I play now. Just stick with it!

    And, I might sound harsh in my FAQ, but I wanna say that SA2 isn't ENTIRELY without merit: First of all, it's MUCH easier to do than any of her EX combos (though her B&B EX combos aren't all that hard), it combos off of C.Lk (EX Spin Scythe doesnt), and it'll combo of C.Mp from max range (EX Spin Scythe will not). Lastly, it's decent to chip someone with; I guaruntee you won't find a lot of people that know how to parry or Red Parry an SA2. :P But, if these are situations you don't find yourself in, or know other ways to get around, SA3 is superior in my opinion, cos it allows Elena to be aggressive or turtle. Do whatever's best for you.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • ToyRobotTerrorToyRobotTerror Magnificent Bastard Joined: Posts: 2,078
    Any good post stun follow up?
    Fuck skrulls
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    Well, if you have meter, your best bet would be either:

    1. Finish off the round with some rad EX combo.

    - If you use SA2, do your most damaging SA2 combo, which I THINK is J. Hp \/ C. Mp XX Brave Dance (12 Hits, 73 damage). I'm sure if I'm wrong, the Brave Dance crew will help you out with that. :P

    - If you use SA3, check out the combos section for her most damaging midscreen and corner combos.

    2. If you use SA3, Do Healing and then a non damage combo. As for that, you'll need options that don't use meter. Here are my notes on that:

    - Her most damaging combo without meter is J. Hp \/ C. Mp XX Hk Scratch Wheel (5 hits, 48), but this is really random; sometimes, the last hits of the Scratch Wheel don't connect, and J. Hp tends to knock the opponent away a lot.

    - The safest bet overall is J. Hk (both hits) \/ C. Mp XX Lk Scratch Wheel (4 hits, 45 damage). This combo doesn't really have the random factor that the above one does.

    - If you don't have time to do anything fancy, Elena's a simple, quick combo you can do is C. Mp XX Hk Scratch Wheel (4 hits, 35 damage).

    In the end, it all comes down to preference. I think that if you for some reason stun your opponent with Elena, the chances are that they're so low on life that you can finish them with a combo (whether it uses EX or not, though I think it's best to try it without EX if you think it can happen). If you're GONNA use Healing, your follow up will depend more on how they got stunned. If you stunned them with a knockdown, do Healing the moment you hit the ground and then rock a jump-in combo. If you stunned them with something like a Back Roundhouse, do Healing and go for something quick.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    Hey, maybe I'm crazy, but can someone tell me why SA1 isn't very effective in comparison to SA2? Does it connect really sloppy, or is it the lower damage, or what's the deal? I just thought I'd discuss it, because if at all possible, I'd like to find out what SA1 has going for it instead of just writing it off. If there's nothing that clearly puts SA2 ahead, I think I'm gonna research the effectiveness of SA1. (EVEN THO SA3 IS TEH BEST LOL!!!!!!!)
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    The main thing I can think of other than damage is that SAII Jumps out to connect on people. Combofiend used that feature of SAII to punish and chip people..
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    I can see that...I'm gonna test out how SA1 works from max range and shit, cos if it really doesn't hold a candle there, then SA2 has it beat clearly.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • rikcrikc Joined: Posts: 521
    I can see that...I'm gonna test out how SA1 works from max range and shit, cos if it really doesn't hold a candle there, then SA2 has it beat clearly.


    SA2 outranges SA1 hard. Not to mention SA2 goes over a lot of low attacks.

    It is too difficult to get all of the hits on SA1 to connect, IMO.
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    SA1 sucks, plus random EX combo notes

    Yeah, so I tried out some stuff with SA1. SA1's first attacks will whiff a STANDING opponent and farther ranges. The amount of EX you get in comparison to Brave Dance is minimal (one extra EX move) and the rate at which you gain EX isn't so fast that it warrants using it (you get an ex move in exactly one less whiffed B+Roundhouse. How's that for exact? :P)

    This reminded me, though: EX Spin Scythe can miss crouching characters at far ranges, especially on crouching characters that are SHORT. I was teaching my friend the basics of the game, and he wants to start as Makoto...Well, something I noticed while sparring with him is that Makoto almost NEVER gets hit by it when crouching. There are troubles with it in far ranges for MOST characters, sure. But I'm talking about comfortable ranges.

    So, I decided to experiment with that, and I looked for various weird properties when trying to combo C. Mp XX Ex Spin Scythe.

    Here's a list of characters that are difficult to hit with the combo when crouching:

    Yun
    Yang
    Makoto
    Oro
    Ibuki
    Elena (damnit, lol)

    Here's a list of characters with strange, specific problems:

    Necro & Twelve - It's pretty simple...Necro and Twelve seem to be shorter than average characters when crouching, but taller than the people I just mentioned above. You can still hit them in the range I tested, but it seems like they're still hard to hit within comfortable ranges. Take caution.

    Dudley - This is weird...It's not a problem of hitting him while crouching, but it's a standing problem. You know how when you hit someone with C. Mp XX Ex Spin Scythe from a little far away, Elena sort of 'catches up' to them? Well, sometimes at farther ranges, Elena DOESN'T catch up, so the last hit of the Ex Spin Scythe will miss. My hypothesis is that it has something to do with how fast you cancel it; basically, this means no hit confirming this combo on Dudley from farther ranges.

    Chun-Li - The most obnoxious problem of them all: Ex Spin Scythe just plain DOESN'T work on Chun-Li. The last hit always whiffs, no matter what you do. How annoying!

    Now, obviously, SA2 doesn't have any of these problems, making it a pretty viable solution. But, now what I'd like to discuss is this:

    Of the characters I listed, which SA do you think is best to use?

    It's a kind of hard question; you don't have this predicament of 'certain comboability versus assured comboability and life back' trouble with any other character, cos no other character can heal themselves. So, I thought I might ask what you guys think. It'd be good to get other opinions, cos I think I'm pretty biased in the way of SA3. Here's some opinions of mine:

    Vs Yun: Could go either way. In this match, Elena will always be aggressive, and can easily punish Yun without much meter. In this case, SA2 is a great asset because you can deal a crapload of damage to Yun without the worry of missing a combo and eating Genei-Jin, or you can sit back and make opportunities to use SA3. I think it depends on your playing style, and the style of the Yun you play against.

    I think SA2 is ideal if:

    - Your style is more combo-based.

    - You're not confident you can punish holes or mistakes in your opponent's Genei-Jin antics.

    - Your opponent (Yun) is not very aggressive, giving you less chances to knock him down for an SA3.

    I think SA3 is ideal if:

    - Your style is based more on turtling and wakeup games.

    - You're more confident that you can punish holes or mistakes in your opponent's Genei-Jin antics

    - Your opponent (Yun) is more aggressive, giving you more opportunities to knock him down and SA3.

    So, basically, it comes down to your personal playing style, how you react to Genei-Jin, and how well your opponent knows the matchup. For me, I play aggressive til Yun gets Genei-Jin, but I'm more bold in the face of Genei-Jin than most; I really like to try and do things like poke/scratch wheel/kara throw in the middle of Genei-Jins, so for me, I use SA3. But, if you look at the TX Showdown 6 qualifier matches, Combofiend clearly did just fine with SA2 (and is even more bold at Genei-Jin than me, which I think is crazy :P). Either one works well.

    ---

    VsElena: I hope I know Elena well enough to comment on this matchup. :P It's harder to hit a crouching Elena with EX Combos, but I think you won't get many chances to use SA2 on the turtling style Elena. Again, I think this one comes down to the type of Elena you play against. I personally think that you should fight fire with fire, in this case: If your opponent uses Brave Dance, you'll probably have just as many chances to land Brave Dance on them, and same with Healing/Ex Combos.

    ---

    VsMakoto: I'm tempted to ask if it even matters...This match can be very easy if you play your cards right, since it's hard for Makoto to get in. Personally, I think it AGAIN depends more on what you wanna do...I personally think that trying to get aggressive with Makoto is just playing into her hands, so I still prefer SA3. But, if you play the risk/reward game, SA2 can reap some nice rewards.

    ---

    Anyways, feel free to discuss this. I think this could lead to some interesting stuff. I only commented on matches I know a little better. If you know any of those matches I mentioned well enough, post your opinion!
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • TizocTizoc Joined: Posts: 11,406
    Yo just wanted to thank u for the thread, I'm an SA II Elena player and I must say this thread helped me out a little bit mainly on her pokes.
    I just wanted to ask- which of Elena's combos does the most stun?
    "You have to be a badass if you ride a giant seahorse." -Grant Morrison on why Aquaman is badass
    "Game Over, Snively. ...Thanks for playing." -Dr. Eggman, Sonic Universe #40
    "I'm stinking of animal blood...As of now I'm a vegetarian. And this is Bat-cow." -Damian Wayne
  • ToyRobotTerrorToyRobotTerror Magnificent Bastard Joined: Posts: 2,078
    Yo just wanted to thank u for the thread, I'm an SA II Elena player and I must say this thread helped me out a little bit mainly on her pokes.
    I just wanted to ask- which of Elena's combos does the most stun?
    dont rely on stun, her combos dont do much stun anyway
    Fuck skrulls
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    If you REALLY, REALLY wanna try stunning someone...

    1. Don't use SA2; it does absolutely NO stun damage (I'm not saying don't PICK SA2, but I'm saying don't use it to stun people)

    2. Back Roundhouse and throw that shit all day

    3. If you wanna really take it to the extreme, learn to hit people out of the air with EX Mallet Smash and combo it into itself; but, I think it's isn't very practical.

    In any case, stunning someone with Elena is not very useful, but if you really wanna do it, I think that's your best bet. SA1 does decent stun, actually... :P
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I'm starting to get the hang of Elena but I switched over to SAII since SAIII seems to be more of an advanced super. The thing I like best about Elena is her great anti-air options, especially compared to Hugo's. She also has a great mix-up game and does loads of damage... After messing around with her, I don't see why she's isn't picked more often.


    Considering that most people don't know how to play against her, she kind of is top-tier or at least upper-mid in a sense. Not because of her skills but since most just don't know how to deal with her, the Elena player kind of does have the advantage in most match ups. She's either way better (in the case of 12 and Sean) or much easier to use (in the case of Ibuki and Oro) than the other characters that don't get much play.
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    I think she really is a lot easier to use than most mid-tier characters, though I can't put my finger on why.

    And hey, SA2 is cool. As I stated on my first post in this page, my discovery that Elena's EX combos have trouble on shorter characters make me believe that SA2 could possibly be a better option in some matches, anyways. It depends on how aggressive you need to be.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • TizocTizoc Joined: Posts: 11,406
    Man I just thought of a cool animation for her SA II, unlike her 'ranbu' like version.
    OK thanks for the tips, and let's not forget Elena's kickass combo on Q:
    Corner: Jumping HP-->Crouching MP-->SA II-->QCB+2K-->QCB+LK/MK-->HCF+2K/F, D, DF+HK

    ...and about Elena being Top Tier...nah I'd say Mid-High to High...
    "You have to be a badass if you ride a giant seahorse." -Grant Morrison on why Aquaman is badass
    "Game Over, Snively. ...Thanks for playing." -Dr. Eggman, Sonic Universe #40
    "I'm stinking of animal blood...As of now I'm a vegetarian. And this is Bat-cow." -Damian Wayne
  • rikcrikc Joined: Posts: 521
    I can't say that Elena is top-tier, but I really do think she can hang with the high's.
    3. If you wanna really take it to the extreme, learn to hit people out of the air with EX Mallet Smash and combo it into itself; but, I think it's isn't very practical.

    I hit people out of the air with any version of mallet smash and it can be juggled with a scratch wheel. I don't know how the damage is compared to what you mentioned ehre, though. I'll look into it.
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    EX Mallet Smash is good for this, cos IIRC, it does the most stun, and more importantly, you can juggle after an EX Mallet Smash with ANOTHER EX Mallet Smash. For example, the combo - EX Mallet Smash x3, Lk Scratch Wheel - does about 50% stun.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • shiningsoulshiningsoul P-ness Joined: Posts: 414
    Just wanted to add my two cents, having played Elena almost exclusively for the past 3-4 years. She's solid mid-tier with SA2 and can hang with the top although any solid Chun or Ken makes it an uphill battle for Elena. I mainly rely on cr. MP xx SA2, mixing up karathrows and tick-throwing, counter-poking, and using her slide at max range. SA3 is when I want to play for fun and if I'm trying for perfects.

    cr.WK can't combo into EX Spin Scythe although i wish it did. WK in general is really useful for hit confirming into Scratch Wheel (MK). If you ever land a MP/HP/EX Mallet Punch on someone crouching link into stand LK, HK Scratch Wheel. Standing WK is also her best normal to tick, stutter step, then karathrow. St.WK at +4 frames is the only, non-meaty, grounded normal attack that gives her frame advantage.

    Standing MP is my usual all-purpose, "safe" anti-air. You can wait until the last second to use it, and the opponent has to parry two hits. Otherwise cr.HP or st.MK->cr.HP for anti-air depending on what angle the opponent is coming from. B+HK is always an option, but don't forget her jump kicks. Straight up jump HP works well and jump back MK is good too.

    Standing WP and MP are pretty good anti-cross-ups or dash-under anti-airs. Sometimes you can anti-air then dash cross-under and go low or mix-up throws. Her dash cross-under mix-up works really well if you land an air-to-air j.MP->j.HP. You can also delay your dash so you don't cross-up if you want to further mix it up.

    Lynx Tail can be comboed from cr.MP. Semi-useful if you're looking for it or if you combo into it from a jump-in or cross-up. Plus it knocks down, keeps the opponent pretty close, and doesn't need meter. Other random tricks: chip with the LK version a couple of times (cancel it from a crouching strong when they don't have meter or are afraid to punish), then chip with HK (after the first two hits are blocked they'll stand up thinking they can punish and get hit with the next two).

    Rhino Horn can be used as an anti-air (you have to use it fairly early). If it you can juggle with Scratch Wheel, and if you're feeling flashing juggle with another Rhino Horn into a Scratch Wheel. Actually, here's some random slightly difficult juggles if only to be thorough (I don't know if they work on everybody; i haven't tested this stuff in a while):

    Anti-Air Rhino Horn:
    WK.Rhino Horn (1 hit) - MK.Scratch Wheel (2 hits)
    *HCF+WK, RDPM+MK

    WK.Rhino Horn (2 hits) - WK.Lynx Tail
    *HCF+WK, DPM+WK

    WK.Rhino Horn (2 hits; distanced) - WK.Scratch Wheel (1 hit)
    WK.Rhino Horn (2 hits; distanced) - MK.Scratch Wheel (2 hits)
    *HCF+WK, DPM+WK_MK

    MK.Rhino Horn (2 hits) - (pause) MK.Scratch Wheel
    *HCF+MK, RDPM+MK

    Follow-ups to an anti-air Rhino Horn or Mallet Punch:
    *cr_st.MP, reset...
    *cr.HK
    *Scratch Wheel
    *Lynx Tail
    *Spinning Scythe

    Her j.WP->j.MK can cross-up (the distances are kind of tough) on Remy, Urien, Dudley, Hugo, and Twelve while they are standing (it can cross up Hugo crouching, too). If you really want to be thorough or you're going all out for damage you can cross up with j.HP and j.HK. The distances on these are pretty funky. You have to aim her foot for the back of their head and you'll land on the other side.

    I'd say picking SA2 is more geared towards tourneys and playing to win. If you're confident in your poking and throwing ability and your ability to land cr.MP xx EX Spin Scythe combos, and playing a different style then pick SA3. If you're looking to win by damage through supers and the ability to hit confirm cr.MP, mixing up karathrows, and different meaty attacks and counterpoking to get that cr.MP xx damage, pick SA2.

    UOH link into super is buff. The damage barely scales, it's a high attack, and you can also hit confirm (by the actual UOH itself or by linking a cr.MP xx super after hitting the overhead). Both SA1 and 2 can do this so if you pick 1 for it's extra meter for EX juggles you can still land supers.

    Other random stuff- links if you're feeling ballsy: meaty st.HK or meaty toward + MK link into SA2; st.HP->st.HK can link into SA2 on crouching opponents (sometimes you need to hit the st.HP meaty for it to hit them crouching). Not finishing EX Juggles and using normals to reset the opponent makes for good mix-up opportunities. You can try dashing and crossing-under, or walk forward to set-up the UOH xx super or karathrowing.

    Concerning match-ups:

    vs. Yun - Elena's best pokes: cr.WK, cr.MP, down-towards + HK slide. If the Yun you're playing doesn't get aggressive, then it just makes it easier for you but when he's built meter and gets aggressive, he needs to get in close to do any real damage. Back + Roundhouse his divekicks or jump Fierce him which should keep you ahead. If you're on the offensive and the opponent wants to start turtling up, karathrow to open up his shell, then use cr.MP xx SA2 to counter-poke when he starts to stick stuff out to counter your karathrows. If the Yun goes on the offensive on the ground cr.MP and cr.WK will keep him out and away from you. It depends on the momentum in this match, like if Yun lands a dive kick and knocks you down he's in a much better position to continue his rush. If Elena can knock down (like with an EX Mallet Punch or Rhino Horn anti-air juggle) you're in a much better to continue your mixup game. This stuff pretty much applies to Yang as well, but you'll need to watch out for the low MK xx slashes. Don't forget that a well-spaced HK or a UOH will go over it.

    vs. Makoto - Makoto dash makes her very quick. She needs to get in and grab to do damage and start her mix-ups so you need to keep her out. WK can keep you safe, but Elena's HK and B + HK really help her in this match. Be careful when you're throwing out pokes because if you whiff expect a dash punch or dash grab. Once Makoto knocks you down it's 50/50: if she goes for a grab counter with Elena's HK. If she goes meaty st.MP or low LK block; if you block a dash punch and have meter punish with super. Crazy rushdown mix-up Makotos are tough when they're guessing right; watch out for Makoto's crazy stun combos, because they hurt, so if your stun bar's getting full try to keep away or throw them to get some breathing room.

    vs. Elena - mirror matches are weird. All I can really say is know Elena's pokes and counterpokes. Focus on your ability to stay ahead with safe poking and anti-airing and try to land as much cr.MP xx SA2 as you can. Mix up your throws, your overheads, UOH, and poking low or sweeping. If you give me an idea of what kind of Elena you're facing, maybe I can help.

    Okay, this post has gotten too long. Next time I play I'm going for more anti-air Mallet Punches and try to get fancy with the juggles. Keep up the discussion!
    Y B Squrred !
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    I do agree with what you say about SA2, but I still think SA3 is a completely valid super in competitive play. SA2 really shines in its simplicity to use (in comparison to EX combos) and especially in its usefulness against short characters (you need to pay a lot more attention to who you're fighting and your spacing when doing EX combos), in my opinion. Both of them are very effective, though I prefer SA3 cos I feel like I have more options, so long as I be careful on the offensive.

    I also agree with you on UOH being dope. I've begun to appreciate it more, since it's fast enough to be effective, and it's safer than her Mk Overhead (which I only found out recently to be VERY unsafe on block vs anyone with meter), not to mention you have even MORE followup options after UOH.

    I don't tend to use her normal special moves (especially Lynx Tail) very often, cos I think they're unsafe, and most things you can use them for, you have better options. I think EX versions of most of her moves are really good. You can do some neat stuff with EX Mallet Smash, EX Scratch Wheel makes a nice Reversal if you need it, EX Rhino Horn can catch people by suprise if you use it sparingly, and EX Spin Scythe leads to her most damaging combos.

    And, yeah. :P I think something that really gives Elena an advantage compared to other mid tiers, is that she can stand really well versus Yun and Makoto. That's half of the top tiers. :P A lot of Elena players on this board seem not to fear Ken (I sure do, but I'm working on it :P), so that's another one you can tag on. Elena seems to hold her ground surprisingly well versus the first two tiers.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • ToyRobotTerrorToyRobotTerror Magnificent Bastard Joined: Posts: 2,078
    WK? WP? What are you jabbering about? And tiers is about characters not players
    Fuck skrulls
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    Wp - Lp - Jab
    Wk - Lk - Short
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • shiningsoulshiningsoul P-ness Joined: Posts: 414
    I don't tend to use her normal special moves (especially Lynx Tail) very often, cos I think they're unsafe, and most things you can use them for, you have better options.
    Very, very true.
    And, yeah. :P I think something that really gives Elena an advantage compared to other mid tiers, is that she can stand really well versus Yun and Makoto. That's half of the top tiers. :P A lot of Elena players on this board seem not to fear Ken (I sure do, but I'm working on it :P), so that's another one you can tag on. Elena seems to hold her ground surprisingly well versus the first two tiers.
    Ken vs. Elena isn't too bad, but from a pure damage from supers standpoint Ken has a huge advantage. Ken's multiple links and buffers give him way more options to get that damage, so Elena has to work a lot harder and be more tricky in this match-up. Plus the fact that high-damage kara-shoryuken combos are REALLY easy to do on Elena because she falls funny makes it even harder.

    Another random trick (which is really old, but whatever, I've only seen two or three people ever use it): off a blocked shoto low forward, you can punish with reversal SA2 (sometimes you can be a frame off and it can still hit)--keep in mind the blocked low forward has to be within a certain range, i.e. not max range. You don't need to fear Ken, you just have to be careful and safe against him (oh yeah, if he blocks Elena's crouch strong he can reversal SA3). The worst is when Ken works his wake-up games on Elena, since her reversal EX Scratch Wheel isn't that great and her backdash is a bit on the slow side and keeps her grounded the entire time; if Ken has meter he's got tons of options to further the lead.

    Random stupid Elena bait: ranged crouch strong xx rhino horn (blocked), when they stick something out to punish, you super. Not something you should be trying every round or every match, but comes in handy when you keep it under your hat.

    Other random things: meaty crouch strong, meaty stand short, and meaty toward + strong can stuff some reversal wakeups. I'm not sure but I think I've seen Elena's jump fierce and jump forward used meaty to stuff reversals (I think if you do it right you can stuff reversal shoto DPs, but don't quote me on that).
    Y B Squrred !
  • ToyRobotTerrorToyRobotTerror Magnificent Bastard Joined: Posts: 2,078
    target combo(mk,c.hp) - healing too good
    Fuck skrulls
  • shiningsoulshiningsoul P-ness Joined: Posts: 414
    up there where i said stand short is her only +frames advantage move, her back+HK also gives her +4 frames to work with.

    throw -> healing is really obvious, and good too, but certain characters (chun in particular) can techroll and punish with super (but that's where canceling healing comes in handy). anybody use healing-cancel as bait set-ups?
    Y B Squrred !
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