You're Doing It Wrong (Addressing common mistakes/misperceptions with solutions)

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  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭
    On the flip side, Bob is built around an aerial offense, and look how many people use him. I think they made the air game a little stronger than usual because it's not something the Tekken roster would be used to coming from the 3D plane (meanwhile they have advantages from that style). I agree with what is said above, it's not so much a complete dominance of air game, just that a select few air moves are ridiculous.
  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭
    On a side note....it's rather odd that some Tekken characters(Bob, Lili, Asuka) have really good aerial offense yet their feet don't leave the ground much in Tekken(well Lili is all over the place >_>).

    About some reoccurring problems and misconceptions...

    The first being Zoning not being effective o_O If they bothered giving all these moves projectile invulnerability in the first place, It's pretty obvious it still works, when time outs became a factor in alot of peoples opinion, it was due to good zoning, it's a solid and legit strategy. If being called a punk ass bitch for running, zoning, and wearing down the clock is the consequence for winning then, im a real bastard...but im sure Raven is the biggest offender when it comes to that.

    Seriously though other issues like people not punishing shit correctly is more of them not doing their homework then a legit concern because....ok CrossRush isn't safe...we know this, but alot of chains are not either, yet they go unpunished..but no one says anything about that. Meter Consumption is a problem but that is going to change as the game grows anyways.

    This whole thing about if gems were in tournaments, people would need to find gem setups and load outs....this was shit i was saying way before launch, and yeah I know good gems can be...wait till those Collector Edition Gems get released on PSN/XBL you'll see....80% C.Gauge Boost is fucking fantastic.

    It's good to see a thread trying to solve the common issues that are constantly brought up, but I think the character specific match ups should be left in those characters specific threads or their match up threads because im sure it differs from character to character, and to avoid that can of worms...I'd say just leave it as is for now.
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  • MuayGioMuayGio aka Wulfsten Joined: Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭✭
    Here's a problem:

    Overheads are cheap and I can never block them, it's just a guessing game.

    Solution: Go into training mode whenever an overhead heavy character like Hwoarang or Heihachi beats you and learn their overheads. Really get familiar with them, and the way the look, and the range they strike at. After you've done this, for bonus points spend an hour or two on endless trying them out, to learn when you find yourself really wanting to go for the overheads. Once you do this, you'll almost immediately find you're better at spotting the patterns in your opponents' play that typically lead to them trying an overhead, and when they do throw the overhead, you'll be familiar enough with how the move looks that you'll be able to block.

    Almost every overhead is slow enough to be blocked on reaction.

    Also, study what mixup options a character has. Many characters have strings that either end in an overhead or in a low, and these can be impossible to block on reaction. The key here is that in no case do both options (overhead and low) lead into combos. Typically, only one option (usually the overhead) will lead into a combo, and the other will just do a little bit of damage. In these situations, always assume that the opponent will go for the combo. If you're wrong, you take 60-70 damage. If you're right, you've avoided 350-450.
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,851


    Almost every overhead is slow enough to be blocked on reaction.


    So true. Exception being Able's close RH. (assuming off-line play, or excellent net connection.)
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  • MuayGioMuayGio aka Wulfsten Joined: Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭✭
    So true. Exception being Able's close RH. (assuming off-line play, or excellent net connection.)
    A notable exception, yes. Thanks for noting that, I'd forgotten about it. I tend to backdash and jump like a madman near Abel anyway, for fear of his command grab, so you won't often catch me down-backing near him.
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  • Arz2003!Arz2003! PSN: Arz2k3 Joined: Posts: 196
    This is a good thread. Very helpful will be ready at least a bit aware going online now. Will be reviewing this thread.
  • silphsilph Joined: Posts: 267
    Can we add something to this?

    "Stop putting jabs in your juggle combos! Your damage goes to shit because of this, and it's not exceedingly difficult to learn optimal combo options anyway!"
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,608 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can we add something to this?

    "Stop putting jabs in your juggle combos! Your damage goes to shit because of this, and it's not exceedingly difficult to learn optimal combo options anyway!"

    Actually, a question on that, as I noticed a few people in matches doing quite a few jabs or strongs in combos... is that to build more meter in that one combo? I haven't been doing that too often myself but if it adds a decent amount of meter...
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  • silphsilph Joined: Posts: 267
    Actually, a question on that, as I noticed a few people in matches doing quite a few jabs or strongs in combos... is that to build more meter in that one combo? I haven't been doing that too often myself but if it adds a decent amount of meter...

    I'll use Julia as an example.

    Here is a common juggle for her.

    (Raw launcher) f. HP, cr. HP xx fddf. HK - 364 damage

    Now let's add a jab.

    (Raw launcher) cr. LP, f. HP, cr. HP xx fddf. HK 317 damage, about 1/5th of a bar less gained than without the jab.

    It is all around bad. Sticking a jab in your juggle decreases your juggle potential, adds to damage scaling, and doesn't net you any more meter. There are very few exceptions.
  • JiBboJiBbo AutoMattock Joined: Posts: 1,386 mod
    Actually, a question on that, as I noticed a few people in matches doing quite a few jabs or strongs in combos... is that to build more meter in that one combo? I haven't been doing that too often myself but if it adds a decent amount of meter...

    Uhh I would mostly say because it's easier to hit confirm. You really don't want too many jabs cause the jabs themselves don't much damage but they cause the more damaging hits to do less. This is why I usually hit confirm with crouch jab > crouch strong > x with Jin because it's a good block string and hit confirm into good damage.
    (Raw launcher) f. HP, cr. HP xx fddf. HK - 364 damage

    Just FYI... and I hope I'm not being a big mister know it all or anything.. I think the most damaging juggle for Julia is Toward Strong > Toward Forward > Short Wind Roll > Crouch Fierce > HCB Fierce.

    Your point is valid though ^_^
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  • FullAutoDeathFullAutoDeath Joined: Posts: 312
    I think it'd be nice to have a community effort to find and record each characters' max damage/optimized combos so that there can be a definitive reference for anyone that is learning/using the characters. A video series/playlist containing these could prove to be very helpful and would improve the quality of the play we are seeing, as even in tournament footage we aren't seeing optimization.
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  • silphsilph Joined: Posts: 267
    Uhh I would mostly say because it's easier to hit confirm. You really don't want too many jabs cause the jabs themselves don't much damage but they cause the more damaging hits to do less. This is why I usually hit confirm with crouch jab > crouch strong > x with Jin because it's a good block string and hit confirm into good damage.



    Just FYI... and I hope I'm not being a big mister know it all or anything.. I think the most damaging juggle for Julia is Toward Strong > Toward Forward > Short Wind Roll > Crouch Fierce > HCB Fierce.

    Your point is valid though ^_^
    It depends how much scaling came before her juggle as to what is the better option for damage. In the case of a raw launcher, the option you listed is more damaging by a single hit point. However if any scaling has occured before the launcher, the option in my post becomes more damaging, and exponentially so as more hits are added to the combo. But to be honest I just picked a random juggle as an example. o_o

    Really though the knockdown and spacing from the HCB + P ender is almost always preferable IMO.

    I appreciate your post by the way, Jibbo. Here's to hoping at least a portion of the community heeds that advice.
  • silphsilph Joined: Posts: 267
    I think it'd be nice to have a community effort to find and record each characters' max damage/optimized combos so that there can be a definitive reference for anyone that is learning/using the characters. A video series/playlist containing these could prove to be very helpful and would improve the quality of the play we are seeing, as even in tournament footage we aren't seeing optimization.
    I could do a write up of every character's optimized combos for common situations, but unfortunately I don't have a capture card to record video from my 360. When the PC version is released, if this has not been done yet, I will do something like this. An Ibuki character guide as well.
  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭
    Ultra David and James Chen had already when over this on focus Attack already...your just regurgitating what they pretty much said about the topic...so what if im being a jackass about it.

    Maxing out damage is cool but if you can't land those hits, it's pointless. thats why Jabs and shorts are important for you to hit confirm and convert that into damage, we all know the formula for maxing out damage using a boost combo and in that same segment they talk about meter management, again no need to explain that if you seen the same stream/video as everyone else.

    Something they didn't go over, was maximizing the effects of your Gems and that is something I know about Very well....Depending on your Team Setup, you can organize a set tactic that can insure you to do heavy damage almost every time, every round...I'll give out one example and you can figure out some on your own.

    Team: Lili(On Point) Kazuya(Reserve)
    Gem Load out Lili: Onslaught lv.1(connect 3 special moves) Onslaught lv.2(connect 4 special moves) Immense Power. lv.1(Connect 3 special moves)
    Gem Load out Kazuya: Immense power lv. 1 (Partner connects a Launcher) Immense power lv. 1(connect 3 special moves), Immense power lv.2(Perform a SuperArt)

    Notes: The General Strategy for this loadout and team set up is for Lili to Set up Kazuya's high damaging Super from a Boost combo. Lili can easily meet the gem requirements from 1 hit confirm bnb and start filling the C.Gauge to the max, once 2 bars are obtained, landing the Boost combo is the final piece of the puzzle, from there, if the opponent is still alive from the 580+ damage SuperArt(depending on damage scaling before the super art) Kazuya will still have the 30% power boost to pursue the opponent, but mostly this strategy can 1 shot your opponent(I've killed Hugo's and Geifs with this too).This Gem load out also allows for Kazuya to do solo high damaging combos as well, so it's rather flexible.

    Sure, it's basic but it fundamentally shows boost gems working as a common strategy...something I don't see many people do. Feed back is always nice but do it in PM's please.
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  • RushdownRushdown IYYEEEEE Joined: Posts: 133
    He's not talking about hit confirms he's talking about adding jabs after launcher or tag cancel. Which is stupid.

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  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭
    He's not talking about hit confirms he's talking about adding jabs after launcher or tag cancel. Which is stupid.

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    who does that? o_O
    I never really see that kinda shit to be honest...or I don't pay attention to it....I have a low tolerance for stupid shit so I tend to zone out alot of stuff....so sorry in advance
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  • ffffffff Joined: Posts: 167
    He's not talking about hit confirms he's talking about adding jabs after launcher or tag cancel. Which is stupid.

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    Sometimes you've no choice. With King for example you can't always connect with JKL after a launcher, so you have to jab first and then JKL. None of his other normals recover fast enough for him to JKL afterwards, so it has to be either jab or just st.HP straight into RJB, for example, which is less damage than jab, JKL, st.HP xx RJB.

    I'm sure there are other characters with similar problems, maybe your opponent had to jab and you just aren't familiar enough with his character to realise why.
  • RushdownRushdown IYYEEEEE Joined: Posts: 133
    Well those people aren't doing it wrong lol. I think king can always get a knee except maybe in the corner but like hugo should start with cLP that's fine. But then you see some kens and guiles start with jab and then complain about timeouts, it's funny.

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  • GraphfGraphf Amat Victoria Curam Joined: Posts: 1,206 ✭✭
    I feel ya. But with the counter hits juggling, you can punish jumpers for a potential 60 to 300 damage. Super jumps with extra delay are pretty much free kind of. I'm very weary of air to air since I magically lose when I jump first. lol
    I had this problem for awhile against my brother's Kazuya. He would always beat me in air to air confrontations. I learned that what he was doing is predicting my jumps and just doing super early jump attacks, or reacting w/ early jump attacks. I play Guile mostly and I just started staying on the ground more and picked my jumps smarter.

    Another thing to do that works for me is to find your characters best in air button and perform a super early jump attack yourself. A lot of the time this would result in a trade for about equal life as most characters jump attacks do about the same damage.
    Last but not least, Neutral jumping is great if your character has good nj moves. I also play Vega and both nj.HP and nj.HK are simply amazing against people who want to take the fight into the air.
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  • silphsilph Joined: Posts: 267
    Ultra David and James Chen had already when over this on focus Attack already...your just regurgitating what they pretty much said about the topic...so what if im being a jackass about it.

    Maxing out damage is cool but if you can't land those hits, it's pointless. thats why Jabs and shorts are important for you to hit confirm and convert that into damage, we all know the formula for maxing out damage using a boost combo and in that same segment they talk about meter management, again no need to explain that if you seen the same stream/video as everyone else.
    Well you're not only being a jackass about it, you also completely misunderstood my post, or just flat out didn't read it. I was not talking about hit confirms. I was talking about juggles. ie. After a launcher or tag cancel.
    Sometimes you've no choice. With King for example you can't always connect with JKL after a launcher, so you have to jab first and then JKL. None of his other normals recover fast enough for him to JKL afterwards, so it has to be either jab or just st.HP straight into RJB, for example, which is less damage than jab, JKL, st.HP xx RJB.

    I'm sure there are other characters with similar problems, maybe your opponent had to jab and you just aren't familiar enough with his character to realise why.
    Some characters' launchers launchers don't send the opponent as high into the air as others. Julia's, for example, keeps them quite low to the ground. Off of a standard height launcher, however, King can connect uf. MK directly from a launcher. I admit it is marginally more difficult than other characters' standard juggles, but the damage you sacrifice by putting in a jab is too significant to ignore.

    I wouldn't recommend using King with a character whose launcher doesn't give you enough height to connect uf. MK directly.
  • FullAutoDeathFullAutoDeath Joined: Posts: 312
    I could do a write up of every character's optimized combos for common situations, but unfortunately I don't have a capture card to record video from my 360. When the PC version is released, if this has not been done yet, I will do something like this. An Ibuki character guide as well.

    Sounds good. It'd be good if users from the respective sub-forums of each character pitched in to help as well, as sometimes the combos listed haven't been updated.
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  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭
    Well you're not only being a jackass about it, you also completely misunderstood my post, or just flat out didn't read it. I was not talking about hit confirms. I was talking about juggles. ie. After a launcher or tag cancel.
    *shrugs* Jabs and shorts are more or less a non-issue, certain characters, need the jab or short to finish their juggles(due to low juggle points or few number of options), some extended combos utilize jabs and shorts in them as well... again it's very character specific or situational. I can see it being dumb if they do jab jab jab shoryuken(Tag Cancel) jab jab Tatsu...for example but that kind of thing is going to happen regardless....like a ghetto reset.
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  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,262 ✭✭
    Cross Cancels, aka "Alpha Counters" are more or less really good and pretty well designed in this game. More people should get into the habit of using it.

    A good example I can give as to why they're good, for a Bison player as myself, EX-Psycho alone is good to go against pressure but you can't do it against disadvantage. People will block it and then punish. I also need a charge. Bison's Cross Cancel is also an EX-Psycho Crusher animation, the good thing here is that I only hit Forward+Fierce+Roundhouse to blast through obstacles. Not only I escape, I slap them for a good chunk of health instead of just chipping and escaping.
    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
  • silphsilph Joined: Posts: 267
    *shrugs* Jabs and shorts are more or less a non-issue, certain characters, need the jab or short to finish their juggles(due to low juggle points or few number of options), some extended combos utilize jabs and shorts in them as well... again it's very character specific or situational. I can see it being dumb if they do jab jab jab shoryuken(Tag Cancel) jab jab Tatsu...for example but that kind of thing is going to happen regardless....like a ghetto reset.
    Look dude, if you don't know what you're talking about, just don't post. New players come here to learn. After a tag cancel or launcher, it is never good to use light attacks in the juggle. It is not a "non-issue". The scaling it adds combined with the lost juggle potential is always too much to justify it.
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,608 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for the advice folks. :) I tend to not be really good at putting my fighting theory into words (which is weird to me because dammit, I'm a writer!) and fully understanding how things work the way they do completely, so it's good to get these things clarified from time to time, especially with this game and how much new there is to learn.

    The last game I got in on the "ground floor" at was Tekken 5, and I've probably forgotten a lot of that by now... >.>

    Anyway...
    Cross Cancels, aka "Alpha Counters" are more or less really good and pretty well designed in this game. More people should get into the habit of using it.

    A good example I can give as to why they're good, for a Bison player as myself, EX-Psycho alone is good to go against pressure but you can't do it against disadvantage. People will block it and then punish. I also need a charge. Bison's Cross Cancel is also an EX-Psycho Crusher animation, the good thing here is that I only hit Forward+Fierce+Roundhouse to blast through obstacles. Not only I escape, I slap them for a good chunk of health instead of just chipping and escaping.

    With WNF allowing gems starting next week (IIRC), I wonder if we'll see CCs more often since onslaught gems will inevitably rebuild meter faster? I need to put in more practice time on the timing and keep them in my mind - I'm still playing with the SF4 mindset when I'm under pressure, lol.
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  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,262 ✭✭
    With WNF allowing gems starting next week (IIRC), I wonder if we'll see CCs more often since onslaught gems will inevitably rebuild meter faster? I need to put in more practice time on the timing and keep them in my mind - I'm still playing with the SF4 mindset when I'm under pressure, lol.
    We should see more. The game is gimp without boost gems. All the extra damage and meter will make things more "hype"
    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭
    Which is why it's a non-issue >_>' there is tons of information here on the board, if they want to learn they can, no one is stopping them. It's not rocket science to look in a character thread and find damn near all the information you could ask for, like learning effective bnb's....you know to completely avoid this apparent issue. Jesus....

    If people are doing stupid combos thats them, let them figure it out on their own(See above). New players shouldn't be coddled, that's why SRK is screwed up now, people making dumb ass threads asking where do I find frame data? seriously...? they can't find the frame data? really?
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  • silphsilph Joined: Posts: 267
    Which is why it's a non-issue >_>' there is tons of information here on the board, if they want to learn they can, no one is stopping them. It's not rocket science to look in a character thread and find damn near all the information you could ask for, like learning effective bnb's....you know to completely avoid this apparent issue. Jesus....

    If people are doing stupid combos thats them, let them figure it out on their own(See above). New players shouldn't be coddled, that's why SRK is screwed up now, people making dumb ass threads asking where do I find frame data? seriously...? they can't find the frame data? really?
    The fact that there is correct information elsewhere doesn't justify making posts that are clearly wrong and stating them as fact. The attempt to make SRK a reliable source for information throughout the board is not "coddling" new players. This forum is the go-to place for information and discussion on fighting games. I'd prefer it stayed that way. Bad posts make the use of this board as a reference tool confusing for visitors. I don't want that, and I don't think anyone who gives a shit about the community does either.
  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭
    The fact that there is correct information elsewhere doesn't justify making posts that are clearly wrong and stating them as fact. The attempt to make SRK a reliable source for information throughout the board is not "coddling" new players. This forum is the go-to place for information and discussion on fighting games. I'd prefer it stayed that way. Bad posts make the use of this board as a reference tool confusing for visitors. I don't want that, and I don't think anyone who gives a shit about the community does either.

    First off I believe I've have not said shit that was false in terms of game terminology(If I did, correct it and be done with it). Second, stupid ass post like that are always going to happen, are you going to intervene every time someone ask a stupid question that could have simply been answer if they would have looked for it? Jesus it's coddling no matter how you look at it if you go about it that way. Either way I don't really care, and I don't want to further derail this thread....If your going to quote this, please take it to PM's.
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  • ffffffff Joined: Posts: 167
    We should see more. The game is gimp without boost gems. All the extra damage and meter will make things more "hype"

    I agree, not just because of the effects of the gems but the way some players will change their strategies and be much riskier with gems. Especially the speed gems. I have a set up with Kazuya which ends up with him having 40% extra speed, it only lasts for 10 seconds but it's the craziest 10 seconds you can get.
  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭
    I agree, not just because of the effects of the gems but the way some players will change their strategies and be much riskier with gems. Especially the speed gems. I have a set up with Kazuya which ends up with him having 40% extra speed, it only lasts for 10 seconds but it's the craziest 10 seconds you can get.

    you can go higher with DLC gems and or the right build~ I could help if you like, also do that to Juri...it'll blow your mind~ Speed Gem shenanigans. sucks that they don't really do too much else tho...
    Edit: without getting stupid, I can't find a reliable set up to go beyond 40% speed boost. I guess it's for a reason.
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  • The Lone DragonThe Lone Dragon perverted feminist Joined: Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭
    I agree, not just because of the effects of the gems but the way some players will change their strategies and be much riskier with gems. Especially the speed gems. I have a set up with Kazuya which ends up with him having 40% extra speed, it only lasts for 10 seconds but it's the craziest 10 seconds you can get.

    Speed gems turn empty jump lows into unblockables.
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  • ffffffff Joined: Posts: 167
    Speed gems turn empty jump lows into unblockables.

    Exactly. With 40% speed you can keep hopping back and forth over them, unless they guess right with a random DP or other move, there's no way they can deal with it, especially if your character has a short and fast jump like Juri. It's hilarious to see.
  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭
    Backdash speed increase so...in theory they become better wake up options under the influence of Speed Gems?.....i'll run test tomorrow....
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  • MnszykMnszyk Joined: Posts: 521
    Speed gems on Marduk is pretty strong. He already has a great air-to-ground game, along with more or less the fastest jump in the game, and a quick 16 frame forward dash. Speed gems make him into a deceptively mobile character, even if the effect they have on his walkspeed is negligible. Marduk with stacking speed gems is hilarious, his jumps are like Vega in SF2 Turbo or something.
  • Jcool813Jcool813 twitch.tv/freej4y Joined: Posts: 3,169 ✭✭
    Problem: Ineffective Team Supers

    Solution: 3 bars. It takes THREEEE bars to team super so it better be worth it. Team super at the beginning of the round is hard to justify because it takes away all of your options with meter, won't take away any recoverable health (because they won't have much) and it won't tag your character in so you can recover health, because that character has full health. An example of a super effective team super would be against a mid-health character while your character has a lot of recoverable health, since it switches them out. This makes your opponents character useless with no recoverable health. It's dangerous to keep a low health character in play especially against a full health character.

    I agree with most of what you've said here except for this. i think this really depends on your team structure and gem layout if you're using them. my team gains meter relatively quickly so i have no problem hitting my opponent at the beginning of the round for 400 unrecoverable damage, especially if their point character has been giving me problems or is obviously their strongest. I agree with it being super effective against the situation you stated, but you can't build meter if your bar is full. Using it at the beginning gets you a solid life lead. Not using it can cause an effect where you don't want to use it at all until you get the "perfect" opportunity which may never come if you're playing against a smart opponent. Using meter building gems really helps me justify using it early, along with whiffing normals.
    Jcool: the most jaded DJ on SRK.
  • JiBboJiBbo AutoMattock Joined: Posts: 1,386 mod
    I agree with most of what you've said here except for this. i think this really depends on your team structure and gem layout if you're using them. my team gains meter relatively quickly so i have no problem hitting my opponent at the beginning of the round for 400 unrecoverable damage, especially if their point character has been giving me problems or is obviously their strongest. I agree with it being super effective against the situation you stated, but you can't build meter if your bar is full. Using it at the beginning gets you a solid life lead. Not using it can cause an effect where you don't want to use it at all until you get the "perfect" opportunity which may never come if you're playing against a smart opponent. Using meter building gems really helps me justify using it early, along with whiffing normals.

    I agree with you. My purpose is to get people thinking about how they use their meter with consideration of how it effects the match. The effectiveness depends on a lot of factors but I want to point out how it could be more effective. I just want people to see all the things that happen so we can start thinking outside the box.

    There's lots of things to think about here, which is great. Lets say for example it's the 3rd round and both players have full meter. Player 1 lands a raw team super as an anti air and gains a lead early on. Player 2 is still left with 3 meters and I would consider that potentially more dangerous than having one character down to about 50-60% and having no meter. With just one meter my team could do the same amount of damage and retain the utility of meter, while my opponent would now have to struggle to switch out with either raw tag or find a way to launch. Again, as you pointed out this depends on the match and team composition.

    This is why I don't mind playing the fireball war early with chun li when she has two meters and I also have two or more, more so if I won the first round. If she punishes my fireballs with a super early on, I'm not concerned that much because I have plenty of ways to tag to my partner and do bigger and better damage with my meter, and she's left with less options because she spent it on 40%ish damage... and now I can throw fireballs again. This idea of getting hit just to spend the opponents meter might look or sound absurd to a lot of players but it's actually strategically thought out.
    - David-Paul Mattock. RIP Brandon "DJ Ben-Jammin" Benjamin http://soundcloud.com/no-genre-beats
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Quantum Theorist. Liquid Dubstep Energy Joined: Posts: 33,356 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There was actually just a very long discussion of just this point in the balance thread over the past few days. Go check it out, and see what you think!

    Cliff Notes: I don't really think that this is a problem. AAs are in this game, and they work, but overall the balance has shifted towards air-to-air attacks to beat out aerial offence.

    I told people about this a long while ago and I don't even like or play this game. AA in other games especially Marvel/Animu style games consists of a lot air to air stuff also. Neutral jump or jump forward normals are strong for AA also. I don't know what's everyone's shit on having to be grounded to anti air. That's not the case in Super Turbo, 3S, Marvel or anything really.
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  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,608 ✭✭✭✭✭
    snip

    Dunno, everyone suddenly has this idea that good AA = cr.HP or a DP. >.>
    ~ aka "ninrok" aka "wyphoofighter" ~
    SFxT - Juri (Cammy) x Jack/ Julia x Law | Smash - Robin / ROB / Lucina
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  • ponderingslothponderingsloth Word puncher Joined: Posts: 160
    Dunno, everyone suddenly has this idea that good AA = cr.HP or a DP. >.>

    SF4 is the cause of this, I'd imagine.
    We're in this thing together, whatever it is.
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,608 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SF4 is the cause of this, I'd imagine.

    True, but even then it's weird. I played Juri in that too, and nj.HK, j.MP and j.HP were just as important AA's.

    Of course, cr.MP stopped buses (and actually still does in SFxT), let alone AA...
    ~ aka "ninrok" aka "wyphoofighter" ~
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  • JiBboJiBbo AutoMattock Joined: Posts: 1,386 mod
    I think it's just hip to find any reason to hate on the game, but that's just me being salty. :) Trying to avoid how I feel politically about the game, but Capcom fucked up with SFxT in a lot of ways, most of which don't have anything to do with the gameplay itself... but then again I guess it does.

    Anyways!..

    Gonna clean up the first post quite a bit tonight since I got off work early. Apologies for my laziness/life obligations.
    - David-Paul Mattock. RIP Brandon "DJ Ben-Jammin" Benjamin http://soundcloud.com/no-genre-beats
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  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 7,806 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This idea of getting hit just to spend the opponents meter might look or sound absurd to a lot of players but it's actually strategically thought out.
    Viscant has been advocating this in sf4 for years, and I've been listening. It makes sense to me, especially in this game where you have 2 characters.

    With Raven a lot of the time I just hold my super and try to match or windcross through even though it's a free 330 damage if I choose to take it. If it isn't going to win me the round(raven gets no mixup off his super), 0 reason for me to let my opponent possibly get their other character in and have much more meter than me.
  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,262 ✭✭
    Yah. Like that earlier point about meter management early and late game. Health trade for keeping your character alive is a fair trade too if you must raw tag.
    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
  • ReanRean Freebuki Joined: Posts: 606
    just saying for casuals reading this thread - since not everyone online is a cold blooded pro, anti-air super or punish super may be worthy for setting your opponent into nervous/panic state, so they will make more mistakes and play more mindless/too careful, especially if its 3rd round.
    There is no such thing as innocence,only degrees of guilt.
  • MuayGioMuayGio aka Wulfsten Joined: Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭✭
    just saying for casuals reading this thread - since not everyone online is a cold blooded pro, anti-air super or punish super may be worthy for setting your opponent into nervous/panic state, so they will make more mistakes and play more mindless/too careful, especially if its 3rd round.
    It's not just a useful tip for casuals, mental play is a huge part of high-level matches too. Punishing with a super might not do as much damage as a combo involving super, but you're right, it does send the message to the opponent that you will punish risky play, which will make them play differently. It's definitely something to keep in mind.
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  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,262 ✭✭


    Real talk
    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
  • JiBboJiBbo AutoMattock Joined: Posts: 1,386 mod
    I like the part where my face looks extra stupid in the still frame. Douchebag hat doesn't help either.
    - David-Paul Mattock. RIP Brandon "DJ Ben-Jammin" Benjamin http://soundcloud.com/no-genre-beats
    My Thoughts- http://www.twitter.com/automattock | My Music- http://www.soundcloud.com/automattock
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  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 7,806 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,262 ✭✭
    D
    I like the part where my face looks extra stupid in the still frame. Douchebag hat doesn't help either.
    Dat baby face

    /no homo
    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
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