You're Doing It Wrong (Addressing common mistakes/misperceptions with solutions)

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  • chaoslimitschaoslimits Death by snu snu Joined: Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭
    Great show! Eagerly anticipating more of these.
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  • SimSimIVSimSimIV 2nd. in command of the SFxT Defense Force Joined: Posts: 1,242 ✭✭
    D
    Dat baby face

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  • Silly GooseSilly Goose Joined: Posts: 356
    I don't agree with the 'tag out if you're low' philosophy, unless your other character has 100% health. Anything less than that and you're just setting yourself up for a turtle fest.

    I see a lot of commentators saying during matches "you should tag out there" and I'm like "no." Having very little health can have its psychological advantages, plus a comeback is a comeback. You need to maul the opponent, not poke them a little bit until you have a slight life advantage - for one, the latter's pathetic, secondly it's not actually a good idea - so it doesn't matter if you're doing it with 50% health or 5% (well there is a difference, but if your comeback is successful it doesn't, and you should be confident enough to believe in your plan). If your point's dangerously low and you've got the life lead, and will definitely still have the life lead after eating a 50% (25%) DMG combo, fine - do it, but that's almost never the case for me.

    I also disagree with saving meter for no real reason, or just incase you'll need it for a cross counter, safe tag, or EX reversal. I mean, I don't think it's an inarguably good idea to horde meter. It's up to you how much extra DMG 1 block is worth, in the OP's example I would say 1 block is definitely worth 100 extra DMG no matter what, but it's also situational. If a heavily scaled extra couple hits might kill, absolutely do it. If it will give you significant wall carry, go for it. But as I said it's up to you. There's no right answer for that.

    BTW OP when you do a team super the point character goes back on point at the end.

    TL;DR: Doing it right is subjective and situational, and your examples aren't convincing me you're not doing it wrong yourself.

    I disagree with your 1st paragraph entirely. Who cares about turning the game into a turtle fest? Winning comes 1st obviously. Having low health is never a good idea. No psychological advantage is worth the risk of the next touch killing you. Mauling your opponent & poking are usually the same thing in this game since those safe pokes can be easily hit confirmed into 30%+ combos. Poking is "pathetic"? Again we're here to win. I also challenge you to tell me why it's not a good idea.

    Also your point character doesn't go back on point when you land a team super.
  • PsychobluePsychoblue the Conductor of the Hype Train Joined: Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭✭
  • ffffffff Joined: Posts: 167
    I disagree with your 1st paragraph entirely. Who cares about turning the game into a turtle fest? Winning comes 1st obviously. Having low health is never a good idea. No psychological advantage is worth the risk of the next touch killing you. Mauling your opponent & poking are usually the same thing in this game since those safe pokes can be easily hit confirmed into 30%+ combos. Poking is "pathetic"? Again we're here to win. I also challenge you to tell me why it's not a good idea.

    Also your point character doesn't go back on point when you land a team super.

    I meant that it's pathetic to turtle when you're down on life, plus it's just a bad idea because it doesn't work. The other's guys going to sit just outside the range that you can do anything from and just inside the range to punish your raw tag.

    If you want to raw tag out, you're just going to find yourself in exactly the same position, your point on a significant life deficit and once again you need to find an opening. I suppose if you absolutely need your other character on point because the match up is unwinnable with the one that's currently in, then it's fine, but otherwise you just threw away half your other character's life for no good reason and are in exactly the same situation you were before - losing and in need of a comeback.

    And you're on low health anyway, you didn't choose to be, you just are, so you may as well face it and try to use it to your advantage by playing with your opponent's expectations. You know what he's waiting for? He's itching to do his 4-600 DMG combo when you raw tag. Use that anticipation against him and surprise him with a better tagging out option.

    I've tried it before, it's never worked for me. It's also never worked for my opponents to the best of my knowledge - everytime they make that decision I think to myself 'OK, I've won.'

    If Hugo or Gief is full screen away, you can safely raw tag, that's completely different. But I just don't buy the "better to lose 90% life then 100%" attitude, as it just prolongs the process of losing.

    There are situations where sacrificing life can be advantageous, but raw tagging is virtually never one of them, IMHO.
  • chaoslimitschaoslimits Death by snu snu Joined: Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭
    Snip

    You won't always have perfect tag in options. You don't think people eventually learn to punish dp switch cancels? Or you're good enough to land that clutch hit everytime? In a 2v2 game, where 100% combos don't exist (yet), sacrificing half of your (full health) character's health is a risk you must be willing to take once in a while.
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  • ffffffff Joined: Posts: 167
    You won't always have perfect tag in options. You don't think people eventually learn to punish dp switch cancels? Or you're good enough to land that clutch hit everytime? In a 2v2 game, where 100% combos don't exist (yet), sacrificing half of your (full health) character's health is a risk you must be willing to take once in a while.

    It's not though. The idea that raw tagging out and gauranteeing your opponent a max damage combo is a good plan is based on the premise that you are 100% going to get hit and KOed, which isn't actually true.

    You don't need to DP. I'm playing Kaz a lot and he has a ton of safe taggable moves which are too easy to land.
  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 2,657 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dealing with jab spamming b*tches like Rolento, Cammy and Raven:

    Well, where to start. Obviously it's highly annoying as there isn't much you can do. But what you have to realise is that's all they have if your reactions are good and the connection is stable. As both Raven and Rolento's overheads are remarkably slow, and Cammy....well we all know about her. Granted, they have some tricky mixups, but they really do need them.

    Ryu's HK Joudan is broken, IT HAS TO BE NERFED!

    Please note, reversals with invincibility and a good start up time can beat this "string". Such as SRK, Flash Kick and Law's Fist Fury Rush EX. I also managed to beat it (Cr.Mk, HK Joudan) clean with Kazuya's Cr.Mp, but that needs a LOT more testing.

    My Tekken character has no viable anti airs!

    Get creative. That's all I can really say. I look at characters like Vega, Abel and Gouken as shining examples. As they don't have a "one size fits all" anti air such as Ryu. But would you jump in against a good Abel or Vega? A quote from Jozhear regarding Vega's anti airs:

    "Walking under someone is essentially a good anti-air as you avoid jump ins and can punish their landing in some cases." That can be applied to your character also.

    OK, smartass. Tell me, how do I get past those assist gem users?

    Pick a grappler. As crazy as it sounds, this is a TEAM game. You wouldn't pick Marduk and Zangief against Sagat/Dhalsim would you? I feel they are necessary for good team synergy, as a grapplers metagame can be powerful when people just want to block. And also, Abel's combos are so easy to do now, such as Step Kick St.Hp. And if you don't want to play a grappler, then I advise you to....improve your game. As there is always a way to defeat an opponent.



    Regarding Hugo:

    Yeah....just watch the video, granted he can be tricky to anti air, but it is very possible. For Kazuya players, use St.Mp it stops his jump ins clean.



    Tekken strings are too tricky to block, NERF THEM!

    They are tricky when encountering for the first time. But the Tekken characters strings aren't that hard to block. But I don't believe that it's possible to block them on reaction, if you don't know which way to block. So you have to spend time in training mode familiarizing yourself with their strings.

    I've left the link for the frame data below, so that you can figure out which way to block.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0ApPlWhz-bEuHdDM2blEydzhDY1BJOC1Qdm9mZ09yRlE

    I abuse these a LOT. But Lili's Sunflower Lance MUST be blocked high, and you can mash like crazy if she tries to play it like a Rekka. EG, pausing and then following up.

    For you newer players, Kazuya's Slaughter Hook has to be blocked high, I've lost track at the amount of times I've seen this hit!

    Ken:

    Ken's Cr.Mk/Hadoken is not safe! He's -9 on a normal Hadoken, and -1 on a EX Hadoken. As for his air Tatsus, I'd say dash under him. It's easy enough to do with practice.

    Timeouts:

    I'm certain that they wouldn't happen if people learned real combos, and not all this ABC Launcher rubbish. And if people learned how to keep momentum and punish tag ins sufficiently. Although, Abel with yellow gems...wow, just wow.

    The stages are too big, this game sucks ass!

    I love these wide stages, it makes trying to control the mid range even harder. And if your opponent wants to give you all the space in the world, take it! An opponent that turtles is just a sitting duck, and you should exploit that.

    Feel free to post your problems with the game, and hopefully me or somebody else will be able to help you.
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    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
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  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,245
    The wide stages are okay. Some characters specials or whatever can punt you right across the screen so it doesn't even matter greatly.

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    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
  • EmblemLordEmblemLord Lord of all Lords Joined: Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭✭
    Stop putting point chars as anchor chars and vice versa.

    Most SF chars are point chars and vice versa for tekken chars. Ryu and Ken is a bad team btw. Two point chars = SHIT!!!!
    Play me in Ultra plz. PSN is EmblemLord. Yes I play Sagat....STOP FUCKING LAUGHING AT ME!!!!
  • NeoBloodNeoBlood kara bank account Joined: Posts: 2,309 ✭✭
    I honestly dont think that's the case. I dont feel like there's as much of a point/anchor style with this game, but rather you should think of your team as one character. Switching back and forth is so common that designating one or the other as a point or anchor isnt really an issue. I decided on my team (Raven/Hwoarang) becasue

    A: I wanted to play Raven even before the game came out because he was my Tekken main in 5. When playing SFxT his zoning game is so good and he's just an all around great character so that ended up being a real bonus for me.

    B: I feel Hwoarang can cover up some of Raven's weaknesses, he's got a decent wakeup dp move along with some really dynamic footsie tools and can do very respectable damage with any meter that Raven might build.

    So yeah basically I just picked my team because each member kind of covers the other ones' weaknesses. Raven zones and generally just fucks people up, Hwoarang is solid footsies and good wakeup. Raven builds lots of meter, Hwoarang can use meter well. Meanwhile, my opponent has to adjust to the two characters' differing playstyles.

    A team like Ryu/Ken is actually good though because Ryu is solid and Ken is solid. Neither one has glaring weaknesses that the other has to cover for, they can do good damage together without requiring a ton of execution, the only problem is that they are both kind of meter hogs.
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stop putting point chars as anchor chars and vice versa.

    Most SF chars are point chars and vice versa for tekken chars. Ryu and Ken is a bad team btw. Two point chars = SHIT!!!!

    Actually, in regards to that... is there an actual general team building thread? Maybe something along those lines is in order - a thread that focuses on how to build a team for this game in particular or how it differs from team-building in other games? Maybe putting some emphasis on who works better up front, choosing teammates based on damage and setups, etc.?

    Just kicking that idea out there, as I feel I'm really not knowledgeable enough to elaborate on it myself (yet!) but it could help others who might have trouble understanding why their team isn't working out well. :)
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  • EmblemLordEmblemLord Lord of all Lords Joined: Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭✭
    I honestly dont think that's the case. I dont feel like there's as much of a point/anchor style with this game, but rather you should think of your team as one character. Switching back and forth is so common that designating one or the other as a point or anchor isnt really an issue. I decided on my team (Raven/Hwoarang) becasue

    A: I wanted to play Raven even before the game came out because he was my Tekken main in 5. When playing SFxT his zoning game is so good and he's just an all around great character so that ended up being a real bonus for me.

    B: I feel Hwoarang can cover up some of Raven's weaknesses, he's got a decent wakeup dp move along with some really dynamic footsie tools and can do very respectable damage with any meter that Raven might build.

    So yeah basically I just picked my team because each member kind of covers the other ones' weaknesses. Raven zones and generally just fucks people up, Hwoarang is solid footsies and good wakeup. Raven builds lots of meter, Hwoarang can use meter well. Meanwhile, my opponent has to adjust to the two characters' differing playstyles.

    A team like Ryu/Ken is actually good though because Ryu is solid and Ken is solid. Neither one has glaring weaknesses that the other has to cover for, they can do good damage together without requiring a ton of execution, the only problem is that they are both kind of meter hogs.

    Except Ken is NOT solid and that team is dependent on Ken gimmicking people with air tatsu into boost combo and Ryu doesnt hit hard enough to maximize these opportunities.

    Raven and Hwoarang can play any role. Hwoarangs damage is rather mediocre compared to most tekken chars though. The reason you have point and anchor is mostly damage related. on point want sumone that sets up tag combos and boost ccombos easily and in the back a hard hitter that ideally covers the poit chars weaknesses.
    Play me in Ultra plz. PSN is EmblemLord. Yes I play Sagat....STOP FUCKING LAUGHING AT ME!!!!
  • JiBboJiBbo AutoMattock Joined: Posts: 1,385 mod
    Except Ken is NOT solid and that team is dependent on Ken gimmicking people with air tatsu into boost combo and Ryu doesnt hit hard enough to maximize these opportunities..

    The way most people play Ken right now isn't solid but he does have excellent footsies. Problem is most people are too herp derp tatsu and herp derp it's broken cause I have poor reactions and don't know how to space anti-airs sherpa derp... to deviate to anything different.

    Step kick is good. His low forward is good. He has a fireball, granted not the best but it's there. His dp is still a dp. Standing RH crumples on CH (wuuuut). He has an overhead causes ground bounch on CH... He's got plenty of solid tools.

    I kinda want to pick him up now just to show people how it's done :P
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  • King D.King D. Sentinel Killer Joined: Posts: 442
    U can play footsies with ken but its hard and requires really good spacing his low fwd is -5 on block although it does start up in 5frames, his far standing rh is -9. Or 7 his step kick is -2 and u could react to his fb easily and its also -9 on block and his frame traps and pressure is really weak I've played ken and everygame but when he has such few options against people that know how to play him. I had to kinds drop him and keep him in back when I want an easy win
    In order of greatness
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    Sfxt: Ken/hwo + xio
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  • Her0 of Tim3Her0 of Tim3 Kono shobu moratta! Joined: Posts: 936 ✭✭✭
    U can play footsies with ken but its hard and requires really good spacing his low fwd is -5 on block although it does start up in 5frames, his far standing rh is -9. Or 7 his step kick is -2 and u could react to his fb easily and its also -9 on block and his frame traps and pressure is really weak I've played ken and everygame but when he has such few options against people that know how to play him. I had to kinds drop him and keep him in back when I want an easy win
    Ken isn't that hard to play footsies with. Spacing has always been important with any footsie character. Even if he's negative after some of his stuff, it's not like you just throw it out there. Step kick is for stopping forward movement when your backing away, far RH is for counter poking, low forward fireball is used to punish and you generally just throw it out of the opponents hit box so they walk into it.
    This plus the fact that he has that x up tatsu, or just a jump RH, or an empty jump makes him really dangerous.

    If I had to list the characters I'm most scared of fighting right now, it'd be:
    Sagat- I hate being zoned out
    Ken- I have no clue what my opponent is capable of and his derpyness makes him scary at every level
    Guile- fucking Guile
    Xiaoyu- Overhead to half life
    Ryu- Annoying ass donkey kick
    Julia- low short/forward reach half screen, (okay, I'm exaggerating, but that shit is far)
    Chun- I have never like fighting against Chun
    Rufus- Dive kick into herpaderp launcher combos which are usually safe
    SFxT: Sakura/Akuma AE: Yang/Ken Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj4h3cVtxldYYjJH-4bLHyg PSN- xHer0fTimex XBL- Her0 of Tim3
  • King D.King D. Sentinel Killer Joined: Posts: 442
    If u try to counter poke with rh and they block it the he's in for bigg punishment. Cr.mk's hitbox is to short its not like ryu's and against opponents who are walking towards u is easily baited with a simple walk fwd pause whiff punish and the recovery sucks. And against some chars it seems like u can't space low fwd xx fb enough. And spacing in general is hard with ken because of his walkspeed he also only one safe chain, cr.lk xx cr.mp, and that's -2. And maybe if step kick led to more dmg it would be better and counter poking step kick with lights is pretty easy and leads to a lot of dmg. There is really any good kens online so just treat them all the same, they're gonna dp a lot step kick out of range and tatsu randomly they might even throw fbs and think that there's nothing u can do about them. Maybe I see it a lot easier than others because I've always played ken idk. And watch him in the air if u see him tatsu then block the other way or if he's more than half a screen dp it and if ur unsure take the hit in the air w/o pressing buttons. And if he jumps in on you than he jumps in on u so what, what's he gonna do put u in a blockstring with his shitty advantage, at most u will take a throw or get hit by a weak oh
    In order of greatness
    GGAC: Anji, Venom, Order Sol
    Sfxt: Ken/hwo + xio
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  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭✭
    You know what makes this game difficult for me? The fact that mid range zoning was nerfed to hell in this game. I've always liked weaving in and out of poke range in every fighter I've played. Here, the only good way to do damage is to get as close as possible to someone and spam jab. I've tried to stick to my guns here, but I just can't get a feel for this game. Is there anything I'm missing? I'm currently experimenting with Poison/Steve.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭
    Jab pressure is not all it is made out to be. Footsies are super, super important. How else could ricky and pr rog make it to grand finals just using boost combos? Because they outfootsied everyone.

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  • DedemaruDedemaru Joined: Posts: 603
    Is team synergy really that important? I'm running Cody/King - is there any synergy there?
  • JokyuJokyu 'sup?' Joined: Posts: 58
    Is team synergy really that important? I'm running Cody/King - is there any synergy there?
    There are slight differences if the synergy is good. Take this team for example: Cody/Sagat. Sagat not on point, ok... But if Cody tags out after a successful Criminal Upper, Sagat is able to connect two fHK into Tiger Uppercut! Massive DMG!
    SSFIV: Cody, Juri, Sakura,...
    UMVC3: Nova, Dante, Morrigan
    SFxTK: Current: Julia/Steve, Best: Hwoarang/Jin
  • QuantumGravityQuantumGravity Only mostly terrible at this. Joined: Posts: 158
    Is team synergy really that important? I'm running Cody/King - is there any synergy there?
    With what little I know about Cody, I'd imagine canceling CU on hit into King's knees does nice damage, and on block, it allows King a free mixup. Can't be that bad, right?
  • MuayGioMuayGio aka Wulfsten Joined: Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭✭
    Is team synergy really that important? I'm running Cody/King - is there any synergy there?
    Also remember that on a very basic level, team synergy is important because of launcher height. For example, Julia's launcher pops the opponent very low, which makes some tag-in combos (like Guile's f. MK, cr. MP, cr. MP xx Flash Kick) extremely difficult. Other characters will have higher launchers which allow for even bigger tag-in combos.

    Another basic thing to keep in mind is the whole "battery" idea - that is, one character who's great at building meter (like Guile or Alisa), and one character who's great at using meter (like Zangief or Bryan). In general "battery" characters have poor EX moves, or EX moves that aren't necessary to their gameplans (characters who need to use EX moves to have a good reversal or a good anti-air aren't usually great batteries).

    A more subjective factor is the idea of synergy between playstyles. To a lot of people, a Guile Dhalsim team, while formidable on defence, wouldn't be a good idea because if you fall behind, neither character is good at making a comeback, and in a game where the timer is so important, that can be really crippling. Similarly, a Zangief Hugo team would be intimidating up close, but it's vulnerable to being zoned out the entire match by someone running Guile, Jack X or Raven.

    That's three basic reasons you should think about team synergy. Other factors include the specific combos different characters are able to do with each other, or your ability to cover one character's bad matchups with the other character.

    You can be perfectly good without really thinking about team synergy and picking characters you like, but you can be better if you do choose to give it some thought.
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  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭✭
    How important are ABC combos in this game? I find myself never using ABC's or launchers no matter how hard I try to remember. Am I missing something big or am I misdirecting my goals?
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • JokyuJokyu 'sup?' Joined: Posts: 58
    How important are ABC combos in this game? I find myself never using ABC's or launchers no matter how hard I try to remember. Am I missing something big or am I misdirecting my goals?

    It's an easy tool for punishment. for example: your opponent throws out an attack with high recovery but also high pushback. your char can't link anything into another normal so you just go with boostcombo into launcher/super/exmove.
    I often use this with Julia. I punish moves at midrange with cLK x cMK x cHP into EXCADC Party Crasher
    SSFIV: Cody, Juri, Sakura,...
    UMVC3: Nova, Dante, Morrigan
    SFxTK: Current: Julia/Steve, Best: Hwoarang/Jin
  • TeriosTerios I'll give you the show of a lifetime! Joined: Posts: 1,234 ✭✭✭✭
    I like to do abc ex kikoken abc ex kikoken abc ex kikoken abc launch. It's about as good a use for your meter as possible. I rate it as just below Cross Assault and have both people spam taunt.
    USF4: Juri/Adon/Ibuki/Chun/Yun/E.Ryu/Poison/Hugo
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    You should NEVER punish with ABC unless it's your only option. Counter poking into boost in footsies, ok. But PUNISHING a whiffed special move with ABC? eewwww.. Never do that please.

    First, no need to hit confirm a punish. Second, if you can reach with c.lk, surely you can also reach with c.mk, so it's already better to do: c.mk > Launcher or: c.mk, c.hp > Launcher. But ideally for punish you should use hk or hp straight into manual launcher or a special move xx switch when possible.

    And if you read a hadoken and jump in, you know your j.hk is going to hit, so again no need to hit confirm with ABC, BC, or even C. Just go from j.hk straight into raw Launcher/special (though with some teams C > Launcher does a little more damage, depends on your partner's post-launch combo).
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  • JokyuJokyu 'sup?' Joined: Posts: 58
    I never said you have to use ABC as a punish and never mentioned anything about whiffing special moves. It's just an opportunity for moderate damage if you have no other option.

    I agree with doing just one fast move and cancel into launcher as an viable option but this method is also execution heavy.

    well, consider this example: me as Julia vs Sagats boosted cHP. If I block it on a certain range it's quite safe except against cLK and super. Doing cLK into laucher is ok, but what else can I do?

    Here's another one involving a special: Julia vs Cody's Criminal Upper. A blocked CU is -6 but it pushes away really far. Starting her BnB with cHP(which has 6 frames startup) isn't possible because I'm out of range, cMK has 8 frames startup. So, my only options are the same: cLK or super. Boosting or canceling it into her BnB's is fine to me then.

    I know it's character specific(ryu or kaz can do way better here)... That's why i said it's just an option.
    SSFIV: Cody, Juri, Sakura,...
    UMVC3: Nova, Dante, Morrigan
    SFxTK: Current: Julia/Steve, Best: Hwoarang/Jin
  • MuayGioMuayGio aka Wulfsten Joined: Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭✭
    I never said you have to use ABC as a punish and never mentioned anything about whiffing special moves. It's just an opportunity for moderate damage if you have no other option.

    I agree with doing just one fast move and cancel into launcher as an viable option but this method is also execution heavy.

    well, consider this example: me as Julia vs Sagats boosted cHP. If I block it on a certain range it's quite safe except against cLK and super. Doing cLK into laucher is ok, but what else can I do?

    Here's another one involving a special: Julia vs Cody's Criminal Upper. A blocked CU is -6 but it pushes away really far. Starting her BnB with cHP(which has 6 frames startup) isn't possible because I'm out of range, cMK has 8 frames startup. So, my only options are the same: cLK or super. Boosting or canceling it into her BnB's is fine to me then.

    I know it's character specific(ryu or kaz can do way better here)... That's why i said it's just an option.

    Very well argued, I agree. Both you and Hades are right. Hades is right that if you have time to do a full punish, like a blocked DP or a completely whiffed special, or jumping over a fireball, you definitely shouldn't do ABC launchers. I see a lot of people doing this, and it upsets me just as much as it seems to upset Vulcan Hades. I think it comes from a mentality where people are so used to doing cross rushes that they immediately do them whenever they see an opening, even when that opening would allow for far more optimised combos if the player had the presence of mind to exploit it.

    It will get thrashed out of people in time, though. And I can respect that it's fairly difficult to decide in a split second after blocking a move whether you have enough time to load up your heavy attacks straight into launcher, or if you need to suck it up and start with a light attack.

    But you're also right (and I specifically agree with your examples about Julia, as I main her myself) that a lot of the time, the only thing you have that hits far and fast enough to punish a move on block is something like a cr. LK, in which case your punishment options are limited to ABC x launcher or A x launcher, or something like that. Which version is optimal depends on your character and on your anchor's tag-in combo.
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    That's why I didn't quote you (Jokyu). I knew you were talking about punishment scenarios with small windows to punish (e.g. punishing a chain that's -4 or -5 on block).

    I just wanted to clarify that ABC is one of the worst things you can use to punish someone. B, C or A, C > Launcher is already better than ABC > Launcher. And even if you can't link into another normal, it doesn't matter. With a lot of characters you can simply link c.lk or c.mk into a special move xx switch or like your Julia example, chain into an EX move that allows you to keep comboing further (crumple/ground/wall bounce), which will likely do more damage and give less grey health than ABC into launcher. But again, doing A,C or B,C > EX move is probably better than using A,B,C. Also depends on what you're doing after but full chain just scales the damage pointlessly.

    Punishing stuff with ABC > Launcher is often giving up on 250+ guaranteed damage. That's what I wanted to say, but it wasn't directed at you and your post.
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  • JokyuJokyu 'sup?' Joined: Posts: 58
    I actually did see that and I didn't feel offended in any way. Still, I had the urge to clarify my point of view which led to a fair discussion and I appretiate that.
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  • AriesnoAriesno Seimitsu's warrior Joined: Posts: 200 ✭✭
    [quote="Vulcan Hades, post: 7441660, member: 26486". But again, doing A,C or B,C > EX move is probably better than using A,B,C. Also depends on what you're doing after but full chain just scales the damage pointlessly.[/quote]

    Depends on your team...for exemple,with Poison you can do more damage with ABC launcher than ABC ex move.
  • Juri_kills_friend!Juri_kills_friend! Leader of the Lili Army Joined: Posts: 2,032
    like this thread.
    In regards to a few things
    team synergy is important and so is team damage (maximize damage) worst way to lose is a combo you do that only does 400 instead of that last bit of 10hp. Find how to practically do it.
    Sf are great point characters. dp characters on point always except akuma. Akuma is better as anchor only because he can air fireball and run away.
    If a character is slow that means they're suited to be an anchor. Bad team is lili/asuka. Two anchors who both eat a lot of meter and are slow. Another example is paul. the best example would be the best anchor in the game, gief. The point i'm trying to make with all these character is that your point character should be able to get your slow character in the sweet spot where they can harass and damage the opponent.
    ABC only if you need to do or you can do what vulcan hades suggested and see what you can do to maximize damage. Example, Ken ground tatsu. Someone messes up a abc launcher. walk up cr. mk to hk> tc into lili and into a stupid near 50% one meter combo. That's doing the thing i said above, maximizing damage.
    Lastly learn from your mistakes. Be aware of what's messing you up. There is a solution to everything in the game.
    That is all. Thanks for the great forum guys. Keep it up.
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  • MuayGioMuayGio aka Wulfsten Joined: Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭✭
    That's why I didn't quote you (Jokyu). I knew you were talking about punishment scenarios with small windows to punish (e.g. punishing a chain that's -4 or -5 on block).

    I just wanted to clarify that ABC is one of the worst things you can use to punish someone.
    (...snip...)
    Punishing stuff with ABC > Launcher is often giving up on 250+ guaranteed damage. That's what I wanted to say, but it wasn't directed at you and your post.
    I actually did see that and I didn't feel offended in any way. Still, I had the urge to clarify my point of view which led to a fair discussion and I appretiate that.

    The SFxT community is pretty special. :)
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  • Rc_ONRc_ON NO ESCAPE Joined: Posts: 1,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the raw launcher is pretty underrated, because it destroys pretty much all low attacks. Some players just love to spam these cr. jabs and lk's.. so much that you can even empty jump and launch them into oblivion.
    The sooner you notice that habit the better. However, you should use it sparingly, since most players tend to notice that something's off after 2 or even 3 times lol
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  • SaitsuSaitsu SILENCE! Joined: Posts: 20,043 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the raw launcher is pretty underrated, because it destroys pretty much all low attacks. Some players just love to spam these cr. jabs and lk's.. so much that you can even empty jump and launch them into oblivion.
    The sooner you notice that habit the better. However, you should use it sparingly, since most players tend to notice that something's off after 2 or even 3 times lol

    Yeah but launchers can also be slightly slow and if it's blocked, or god forbid if it whiffs, you will die a horrible, painful death.
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  • DarkphyreDarkphyre single-minded Joined: Posts: 1,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah but launchers can also be slightly slow and if it's blocked, or god forbid if it whiffs, you will die a horrible, painful death.

    Raw launchers can be risky against some of the characters with faster lights and moves with lower hurtboxes, but is a solid crush option against everyone else.
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  • Rc_ONRc_ON NO ESCAPE Joined: Posts: 1,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah you guys are right. But it can be a nice comeback/troll tool. I ran into a Ryu/Sakura team yesterday and that guy just loved to spam cr. lk's with Sakura. The raw launcher helped me a lot, because he was beating my cr. mp's all the time >< I just crossed him up and went straight for the launcher. It worked twice but after that he switched to ex moves and throws. It can be devastating, if you analyse your opponent quickly.
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  • Cody&Guy18Cody&amp;Guy18 Joined: Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭
    I find raw launcher a great tool to kill off auto piloting. Reading an incoming low after a jump-in or an upcoming blockstring that starts low can lead to serious unscaled damage. Launcher can look like a reversal DP at times IMO. Terrible to whiff though!
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  • flyingcloud11flyingcloud11 Rock'in the best Joined: Posts: 305
    i got 5 vids i would like you guys to see. What do you think I should work on. The ones I'm using Ken x Jin is in a ranked match, Cody x Steve is endless.

    youtube.com/watch?v=SNt2tc7rmP8

    youtube.com/watch?v=0Z5j8AoU4BQ

    youtube.com/watch?v=PkbwMMZluX4

    youtube.com/watch?v=NbI_URtFSAk

    youtube.com/watch?v=uSvFP5PeMQ4



    MrWhiteProductions.png
  • flyingcloud11flyingcloud11 Rock'in the best Joined: Posts: 305
    i got 5 vids i would like you guys to see. What do you think I should work on. The ones I'm using Ken x Jin is in a ranked match, Cody x Steve is endless.

    youtube.com/watch?v=SNt2tc7rmP8

    youtube.com/watch?v=0Z5j8AoU4BQ

    youtube.com/watch?v=PkbwMMZluX4

    youtube.com/watch?v=NbI_URtFSAk

    youtube.com/watch?v=uSvFP5PeMQ4



    MrWhiteProductions.png
  • ReturnOfSantaReturnOfSanta SALTY SANTA Joined: Posts: 430
    all I can say is. LEARN BOTH CHARACTERS

    Your point character should become a bigger threat than "use X move to get my 2nd character in"

    So many people I beat online because I expose their weak character and keep them in for a whole round
    AE: Cody
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  • GenUser!GenUser! Joined: Posts: 493
    This thread has helped me soo much, Now when I tag In Steve.....I ....really hurt people O_O
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  • SaionideSaionide Joined: Posts: 95
    Anyone have advice vs motivation/resolution + onslaught gem users?
  • Rc_ONRc_ON NO ESCAPE Joined: Posts: 1,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This thread is pretty useful for newcomers..

    The only thing that could work against the meter gain gems is to play keepaway imo. These gems activate only when the opponent applies pressure/hits with special moves. That's the only way I see :/

    Well of course you can try to force him into the defensive for the whole game but that might be difficult for some characters.
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  • nsreedernsreeder Joined: Posts: 139
    Does anyone else use a high damage character first then a defensive character second? I used to use grief and Hugo. Then it was ogre and Hugo. Ogres not completely defensive, but i feel he's better once the opponent is on the ground, plus his HP ancient power is amazing. I switched to run Hugo first and found it worked best for me. Maybe it just changed the way I used gief and ogre since they were second. I like using Hugo first because he's pure offense. Thats all i worry bout and charging the lariat for jump ins or using ex moonsault press. Hes my favorite type of character. Plus once the opponent is down sHP into launcher is devastating once I've already done some damage. Then when i bring in gief or ogre I'm usually either kicking the guys ass or getting killed. Not much in between with Hugo lol. So i usually only have one game plan either offensive or defensive with my second character and ogre is good at both. My winning percentage went way up once I changed my strategy and did the opposite of what everyone else was doing. Then if someone is using guile or dhalsim or whoever I'll just quickly bring in ogre. Just a thought for ppl to try. Doing what everyone else does isn't always the best solution. Mix up on those ppl and create mismatches. Hugo destroys most of the tekken side and has problems with a lot of the street fighter cast. Ppl r not expecting a highly offensive character in first. Most r defensive and built meter by doing cheap shit. Plus Hugo has massive health so he can take a beating, i have more time and chances to get him out when some other character might already be dead.
    XBL: LordFlopyRoostr

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  • DarkphyreDarkphyre single-minded Joined: Posts: 1,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nsreeder wrote: »
    Does anyone else use a high damage character first then a defensive character second? I used to use grief and Hugo. Then it was ogre and Hugo. Ogres not completely defensive, but i feel he's better once the opponent is on the ground, plus his HP ancient power is amazing. I switched to run Hugo first and found it worked best for me. Maybe it just changed the way I used gief and ogre since they were second. I like using Hugo first because he's pure offense. Thats all i worry bout and charging the lariat for jump ins or using ex moonsault press. Hes my favorite type of character. Plus once the opponent is down sHP into launcher is devastating once I've already done some damage. Then when i bring in gief or ogre I'm usually either kicking the guys ass or getting killed. Not much in between with Hugo lol. So i usually only have one game plan either offensive or defensive with my second character and ogre is good at both. My winning percentage went way up once I changed my strategy and did the opposite of what everyone else was doing. Then if someone is using guile or dhalsim or whoever I'll just quickly bring in ogre. Just a thought for ppl to try. Doing what everyone else does isn't always the best solution. Mix up on those ppl and create mismatches. Hugo destroys most of the tekken side and has problems with a lot of the street fighter cast. Ppl r not expecting a highly offensive character in first. Most r defensive and built meter by doing cheap shit. Plus Hugo has massive health so he can take a beating, i have more time and chances to get him out when some other character might already be dead.

    I used to, it didn't end well.... but maybe that's just because it was asuka >.>
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  • nsreedernsreeder Joined: Posts: 139
    I hate asuka. That damn cross up.....
    XBL: LordFlopyRoostr

    SFXT: Hugo x Zangief main team. Also Ogre and Ryu
  • Dex_SamaDex_Sama Joined: Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I use my powerhouse/damage character as my second/anchor (Hwoarang usually), and I use my footsie/boost combo character (Bison or Rolento mostly) as my point character, because I feel like the match pretty much always starts out with footsies, and whoever has the better ground game will usually be the one who can get some nice damage off those stray pokes (both Rolento and Bison are excellent in that department) and then once I boost combod into my other character I can do my post launcher max damage combo and start pressuring them on knockdown and after, since Im basically in already and footsie time is over until they manage to get out.

    Then after I feel like I have a solid lead, I will switch cancel back to my footsie character (who are both also incredible turtles surprisingly) and just lame it out with them, or if I feel like the Hwoarang matchup is in my favor then I keep him in and try to finish them off. And for when I switch cancel back, basically since I have the life lead, it has to be THEM coming at me, which if you play a solid Rolento usually means free damage for you since he has every angle covered when it comes to shutting people down from getting in. Bison can just lame around with devils reverse whiffs or force the opponent to play footsies with him, which isnt exactly the best idea vs Bison since he dominates pretty much everyone on the ground. Not to mention his forward dash being probably the best in the game, allowing you to get throws in at the most surprising moments.
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  • nsreedernsreeder Joined: Posts: 139
    edited June 2013
    Bison is definitely one of the best with footsies. He scares the crap out of me when I use gief or Hugo. I just could never use a super defensive character. I know gief is, but i dont really use him as that. I'm all about applying pressure. Which gets me in trouble as i try to hard to pressure and don't back off when needed all the time. Which is why I like sfxt better than sf4. More action and faster paced. Sf4 bored me, but i played sfxt first, so i got used to that style of fighting (it was my first fighting game) I was thinking about looking into cammy to put in front of Hugo. Two good offensive characters. Also Nina would be scary. She has very good damage.
    Post edited by nsreeder on
    XBL: LordFlopyRoostr

    SFXT: Hugo x Zangief main team. Also Ogre and Ryu
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