What made brawl bad?

helhelhelhelohelhelhelhelo True Believer | * * * * |Joined: Posts: 251
is it the slipping, no hit stuns, slow and bit casual ( well actually a lot casual ) or is it just something personal

Comments

  • DiscoCokkroachDiscoCokkroach Robot Master Joined: Posts: 148
    For me, it is the fact that the degree of control that I have over my character is not as good as I expected it to be, especially in the air. I get used to it after a few games, but I just can't move like I did in Melee. The jumps are floatier and have more startup, and mid-air movement is slower and less responsive. That's the big offender in my book, even more so than tripping.

    I still like Brawl and play it whenever the opportunity presents itself. I think it's a great game, but it's not perfect. What game is, right?
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  • specsspecs Excuse me, princess! Joined: Posts: 6,380 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    It would be really obnoxious of me to post that Bitmob article I wrote about it. So I'm going to be slightly less obnoxious and say to check my sig.

    EDIT - It also doesn't feature the superior version of Link, the one in my avatar.
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  • ThirtyfourThirtyfour Wait Joined: Posts: 3,805
    Tripping
    Lack of hit stun
    Competitive wise TOs and SWF had too much of an influence on what was "banned" and what wasn't.

    Stage choice, Banned Characters, stalling, 8 minutes a game, best of 3 sets, 3 stock.

    Put it all together and you have 25 minute sets. 10+ hour 50 man tournaments for a single game.
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  • Amazing FunbagsAmazing Funbags The J-Cup Lover Joined: Posts: 17,810
    Tripping.
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  • Mr Gork801Mr Gork801 Destroyer of Heaven Joined: Posts: 356
    lol why is this a thread?
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  • piskooooopiskooooo anime swag Joined: Posts: 4,386
    Tripping, no hitstun, ridiculous amount of floaty-ness, chain grabs
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  • DanDanDanDan Yeah! Joined: Posts: 1,209
    Nintendo
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  • lawlHTlawlHT youtube player Joined: Posts: 535
    tripping, but i think my biggest problem is the lack of hitstun. the game became a slugfest where the person who got hit just does an attack right back, and usually fares better because they can use basically anything they want. Melee encouraged aggressive play, Brawl flat out destroyed any chance at it.
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  • TrulyAmiracleTrulyAmiracle Mobility Spammer~ Joined: Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    It has Mario.
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  • Rin TezukaRin Tezuka Forever Low Tier Joined: Posts: 53
    Tripping and the ridiculous amount of restrictions.
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  • helhelhelhelohelhelhelhelo True Believer | * * * * | Joined: Posts: 251
    Tripping
    Lack of hit stun
    Competitive wise TOs and SWF had too much of an influence on what was "banned" and what wasn't.

    Stage choice, Banned Characters, stalling, 8 minutes a game, best of 3 sets, 3 stock.

    Put it all together and you have 25 minute sets. 10+ hour 50 man tournaments for a single game.
    I'm sorry I'm not a hardcore fan, so what the hell is this?
  • Buster CannonBuster Cannon Cool head, heated heart Joined: Posts: 3,440
    For me, the game's just way too darn defensive. Every time I try to do something aggressive I get punished for it. Without hit-stun, getting punished means eating a single hit, then you're back at neutral again. The game's just boring the way it's played competitively. It's more fun with items on and just having a good time. Never mind the fact that tournaments for the game take forever and a half to finish. My friends took me to one once and I honestly hated the experience. Multiple characters banned and only FD was allowed to be played on. Brawl obviously wasn't made to be competitive, so I don't know why people keep trying to shoehorn it into a tournament-level fighting game.
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  • EX ProfoundsadnessEX Profoundsadness This is Bushinryu. Joined: Posts: 147
    Brawl is bad because it basically took an arguably competitive game and made it simple and stupid. It's like this, imagine SF4 if links were not possible. add to that the fact that the game is riddled with dumbshit (items, half the stages are unplayable, some characters die at 45% health) it's just a game for super casuals and posers who don't want to take the time to learn how hitstun works.
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  • Rin TezukaRin Tezuka Forever Low Tier Joined: Posts: 53
    Multiple characters banned and only FD was allowed to be played on.
    Pretty much this. Sure, no MK is okay, but any other bans are out of order. If they banned Snake/Diddy/Olimar or any other top tiers then that would be just plain stupid.
    And you'd think comp Brawl players would get sick of FD and Battlefield all the time. It'd be better if they gave Yoshi's Island, Skyworld or even Halberd a chance. But of course they won't, it has moving and breakable platforms! And stage hazards that even a 5 year old could dodge! Blasphemy!
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  • ph00tbagph00tbag Joined: Posts: 96
    Lack of tripping and hitstun aside, Brawl has several mechanics that are just plain bad. The new stale move proration feels like it's part of a whole series of decisions centered around a core belief that a player should not be rewarded for hitting their opponent, which is so mind-bogglingly backwards I'm surprised no one stopped for a second and asked Sakurai what the fuck he was thinking. Other decisions along these lines include knockback reduction tactics, improved air control and lower fall-speed across the board removing any real punishment for getting knocked offstage. Even then, removal of non-tumble DI (basically, if a move can't cause knockdown, you can't DI it), and fucked up landing detection undermine that core belief, but in a way that is wholly unappealing, leading to DDD and Falco's chaingrabs, Sheik's ftilt loops, and any number of loops that are not just boring, but tremendously imbalanced in a game with no other way to link moves together for characters who lack these tools.
    Multiple characters banned and only FD was allowed to be played on
    Even competitive players would probably count this as a scrub tourney. It's hard enough to convince Brawl players MK ought to be banned. There's really no one arguing any other characters need to be banned. Not to mention, FD is a terribly unbalanced stage. Any tourney that only allows FD is definitely a scrub tourney.
  • VorkosiganVorkosigan AWOOOGA Joined: Posts: 1,919
    A picture is worth a thousand words and all that shit:

    statue_tripping.jpg
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  • darktowndarktown Darktown2 Joined: Posts: 497
    I've never seen this discussion before....
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  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    The fanbase.

    gengar+pokemon+gif.gif
    And after reading that article in specs sig, tripping.
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  • Donutman012Donutman012 Joined: Posts: 22
    Well for me theres tri-ohwait it doesnt bother me.
    Oh i know ITS ITE-wait those can be turned off
    SONIC AND SNAKE ARE I-wait i like those 2 characters
    What the fuck am i doing in this thread again?
    Ok im being perfectly honest, I dont see anything wrong with SSBB whatsoever....
  • goat4444goat4444 boosh! Joined: Posts: 21
    Donutman, you have inspired me to stir the pot here. I'm with you, brawl is a good game. what do people achieve by complaining about tripping? It works both ways, when someone trips, they are basically letting you punish them. Does that ruin the game for you? Stop talking about hit stun, smash isn't a combo game, get over it. I'm not saying it is better than melee, but brawl is really fun. Who was that idiot who said fd is an unbalanced stage? sounds like an ice climbers player to me, lol. Ya, in conclusion, I'm going to keep playing brawl because its fun. Luigi shoryuken!
  • ph00tbagph00tbag Joined: Posts: 96
    what do people achieve by complaining about tripping? It works both ways, when someone trips, they are basically letting you punish them. Does that ruin the game for you?
    Working both ways or not, for a competitive game, it's tremendously unfair. I realize it was the goal, but tripping severely damages Brawl's legitimacy as a competitive fighter. That's the point. If you don't mind tripping's existence because you focus on the game as a random, scrubby party game, that's fine, but don't try to argue that that means the game is worth playing competitively.
    Stop talking about hit stun, smash isn't a combo game, get over it.


    Yeah, Smash never had combos. Oh, maybe Melee didn't have combos, though.



    Well, okay, maybe it did. Granted, you could make the observation that Melee also has a greater emphasis on DI, resets, oki, juggle escape reads and edgeguard matrices, but Brawl deemphasizes even some of these. Thus far, the majority of Smash games have had vibrant combo games. I would even go so far that their combo games are deeper and more creative than those of any other fighter ever created.
    I'm not saying it is better than melee, but brawl is really fun. Who was that idiot who said fd is an unbalanced stage? sounds like an ice climbers player to me, lol.
    Wait until you have to play a high level Falco on FD. SHDL camping, approach mix-ups, and a chaingrab into knockdown where you have to contend with one of the best oki tools in the game are not things you want to deal with if you don't have platforms to mitigate Falco's options.
    Ya, in conclusion, I'm going to keep playing brawl because its fun. Luigi shoryuken!
    I'm going to level with you. I don't even find Brawl all that fun as a silly distraction game. The sound design is shitty and mid-heavy. The pacing is nowhere near as manic as Melee, or even 64. There is no Mewtwo. There is no Roy. Target Test is boring as shit. Subspace Emissary is repetitive, slow, and boring. And more importantly, more than anything I've mentioned so far, there is no Bonus mode in multiplayer. The only things Brawl really has going for it, for me, are the music and the characters. Add in the fact that Brawl is overrun with glitches, bugs, oversights and engine design flaws, and new ones are still cropping up everywhere, and you've got to wonder by what metric Brawl is a good game.
  • goat4444goat4444 boosh! Joined: Posts: 21
    Listen, those videos are actually pretty awesome...i can admit that. You're reply was very thorough, and you make an interesting point. I guess what I mean is smash bros isn't generally known as a combo game. There is no hit count, and, let's be honest, while those combos are crazy, they are certainly not frame-tight, street fighter combos. But, that's kind of what I like about smash bros...it has a different, unique style. I've noticed a lot of brawl hate out there, and I can't really understand it, that's all. But, I will say this: subspace emissary is stupid. So, try to keep a positive attitude and give brawl a chance. I fight for my friends!
  • factory9factory9 ARCANA HEARTO TWEEEE Joined: Posts: 985
    -tripping
    -no hit-stun
    -floaty and slow as fuck
    -much lower skill ceiling than Melee, 64, or any of Brawl's mods (aka the only things Brawl are good for)
    -got rid of anything that gave Melee any replayability
    -character design was pretty goddamn retarded (Meta Knight, Snake's beyond retarded up-tilt, Sonic spazzing like a retard whenever he went into a ball, Sonic's homing attack not actually heading straight toward the target, Pit's side-b, etc.)
    -exploits that made the game pretty much brainless
    -awful stages
    -Meta Knight (yeah he's bad enough that he has to be mentioned twice)

    I could go on and on about this shit, and if you really want to play Brawl, you have no excuse to not mod it because vBrawl is complete garbage.
  • ph00tbagph00tbag Joined: Posts: 96
    I guess what I mean is smash bros isn't generally known as a combo game. There is no hit count, and, let's be honest, while those combos are crazy, they are certainly not frame-tight, street fighter combos.
    I guess I don't really see what you're getting at here. Just because people who haven't studied the games can't port their understanding of tfg combos into Smash doesn't make the combos less inextricable from the game's identity.
  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    Listen, those videos are actually pretty awesome...i can admit that. You're reply was very thorough, and you make an interesting point. I guess what I mean is smash bros isn't generally known as a combo game. There is no hit count, and, let's be honest, while those combos are crazy, they are certainly not frame-tight, street fighter combos.

    This.

    I think all the hate for Smash is because of how "loose" the inputs and frame data are. When I used to juggle my cousins for fun it felt like I could literally do it forever.
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  • ShwafflesShwaffles Joined: Posts: 1,401
    Forget about metaknight and balance.
    It's floaty and slow as fuck, and tripping is stupid. I always feel like there is a 0.25 seconds of input delay (maybe it's just me). Every character feels so unresponsive that I just want to put my controller down, and go outside. Sakurai went out of his way to limit movement, and the game became incredibly stiff.
    Also, I could never find the sweet spot for the item drop rates. It would either be too much or not enough for me. In melee, I felt that setting it to "very high" was too much, so "high" was just right.
    This.

    I think all the hate for Smash is because of how "loose" the inputs and frame data are. When I used to juggle my cousins for fun it felt like I could literally do it forever.
    Then they don't know how to air tech.
  • Donutman012Donutman012 Joined: Posts: 22
    Forget about metaknight and balance.
    It's floaty and slow as fuck,
    how the fuck were you able to deal with the n64 original then?
  • ShwafflesShwaffles Joined: Posts: 1,401
    how the fuck were you able to deal with the n64 original then?
    I never owned a n64, so I didn't get to play it as much as melee and brawl. The original smash was floaty, but not slow. Movement was not heavily restricted like brawl's.
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  • Donutman012Donutman012 Joined: Posts: 22
    I never owned a n64, so I didn't get to play it as much as melee and brawl. The original smash was floaty, but not slow. Movement was not heavily restricted like brawl's
    The original smash wasnt what you'd call melee speed either, and movement restricted in brawl? Wat i fail to see how its restricted at all
  • goat4444goat4444 boosh! Joined: Posts: 21
    The original smash wasnt what you'd call melee speed either, and movement restricted in brawl? Wat i fail to see how its restricted at all
    lol, that's the thing, movement isn't restricted in brawl. soul calibur is a slow game, brawl definitely isn't slow.
  • goat4444goat4444 boosh! Joined: Posts: 21
    I never owned a n64, so I didn't get to play it as much as melee and brawl. The original smash was floaty, but not slow. Movement was not heavily restricted like brawl's.


    *looks @ avatar*
    American Psycho was such a good movie! Do you think he really murdered all those people or was it all in his head?
    ya it is an awesome movie...so funny. I think in the book he actually does murder everyone, but i forget. I should read that again sometime....
  • RoGE9RoGE9 Joined: Posts: 1,690
    how the fuck were you able to deal with the n64 original then?
    64 has a much faster pace do to the fact that there was *gasp* combos. Its not like the person gets hit then everything starts over like brawl is most of the time.

    -tiredzz
  • Donutman012Donutman012 Joined: Posts: 22

    Except in brawl THERE IS COMBOS
    DEEEERRRRRRP
    You guys seriously need to stop your bitching and either
    1. Deal with the changes and learn to adapt
    2. Go back to melee And stop your complaining
    I mean seriously you dont see Marvel 2 players throwing a bitchfit over the changes in marvel 3. They instead either adapt and deal with the changes, or just play marvel 2 and not whine about it
  • ShwafflesShwaffles Joined: Posts: 1,401
    The original smash wasnt what you'd call melee speed either, and movement restricted in brawl? Wat i fail to see how its restricted at all
    What the hell is tripping for? To restrict movement. However, the most important things removed were dash dancing and l-canceling (z-canceling in 64). You can't make your character quickly face a different direction during a regular dash without dash dancing. Without l-canceling you had to deal with tons of recovery frames on almost every single aerial move low close to the ground.
    lol, that's the thing, movement isn't restricted in brawl. soul calibur is a slow game, brawl definitely isn't slow.
    Your telling me that a game with almost no offense (brawl) is faster than Soul Calibur?
    LMAO nice 1-hit combos. :rofl:
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Too Many Waifus Joined: Posts: 20,912
    I think Brawl exceeds at being a fun game (at least for me), but people call it bad due to it being almost completely stripped of competitive viability. A lot of people have already nailed some of the issues (lack of l-cancelling or wave-dashing aren't issues in my opinion, though). Personally, if Brawl had a reasonable amount of hitstun and no tripping, I would be able to deal with most of its other issues from a competitive standpoint. But being punished for running, which is needed to get close to the opponent, and getting punished for actually hitting your opponent due to lack of hitstun...that's just stupid on so many levels.

    I'd give a list of what I'd like to see in the next smash, but there's probably another thread for that.

    Also, technically Brawl does have combos. Mario and Luigi's down throw into up-air is a true combo, Toon Link's Back-air into up special is a true combo (I think...I do know that his back-airs combo into themselves as a true combo), Marth's forward throw into forward smash is a true combo (I think it's forward throw...it's either that or down throw), you can combo with almost anything after Toon Link's hookshot, Link's clawshot (one hit) can allow for a combo afterwards...there are a few others I'm forgetting.

    So Brawl does have combos. But the way the game works makes most "true combos" not worth going for, and doesn't allow for the creative combos we see in Melee and 64.

    Ironically enough, Falco's chain grab is not a true combo. But you can't escape from it until you get to a high enough percent or if you're a really, really floaty character (I think game & watch is one that you can't really chain grab with Falco).
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  • ph00tbagph00tbag Joined: Posts: 96
    Except in brawl THERE IS COMBOS
    DEEEERRRRRRP
    You guys seriously need to stop your bitching and either
    1. Deal with the changes and learn to adapt
    2. Go back to melee And stop your complaining
    I mean seriously you dont see Marvel 2 players throwing a bitchfit over the changes in marvel 3. They instead either adapt and deal with the changes, or just play marvel 2 and not whine about it
    Marvel 2 players bitched constantly about the Marvel 3 changes. They're still bitching, last I checked, about changes made from vanilla to ultimate. The only difference between them and the Melee crowd is they continued to play a game they hate because that's what Evo went with while the Melee crowd kept playing the game they loved despite the fact that massive tournaments were being held for the game they hated, and they eventually revived the Melee scene to become one of the most vibrant underground tournament scenes in the world. I'm not sure which side is smarter, since the Marvel players are bitching all the way to the bank, but I'd say the Melee crowd did a better job of following your advice.

    And lol at your "combo" video. Showing people air control into smash attacks is not a combo video, it's a "let's make our opponents look like fools" compilation. The majority of the video certainly showcases some great reads, but it's telling that most of those reads are punishing the opponent for being too aggressive. The only actual combos are brain dead infinites and chain grabs that have literally no tech skill floor to execute. Melee combos may be considered easy, but true brawl combos don't even require DI reads to work, because the mechanics that make them possible explicitly prevent DI from occurring.
  • BerserkChipBerserkChip Sandrock: qcbHP>dash>LP>LK>HK>qcfHK all day long Joined: Posts: 143
    Snake isn't in Melee. Everyone's arguments are suddenly invalid.

    Seriously, I've never had any problem with Brawl. I love destroying people with snake.
  • xlxlxlxlxlxlxlxl Joined: Posts: 2,008
    • Low hit-stun
    • Air-dodges not causing helpless
    • Tripping
    • Easy recoveries
    • Not being able to instantly detach from a grabbed ledge
    • Too floaty
    • Too much stale-move negation
    Tripping, no hitstun, ridiculous amount of floaty-ness, chain grabs
    Melee had Chain Grabs too FYI.
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  • Donutman012Donutman012 Joined: Posts: 22
    Marvel 2 players bitched constantly about the Marvel 3 changes. They're still bitching, last I checked, about changes made from vanilla to ultimate. The only difference between them and the Melee crowd is they continued to play a game they hate because that's what Evo went with while the Melee crowd kept playing the game they loved despite the fact that massive tournaments were being held for the game they hated, and they eventually revived the Melee scene to become one of the most vibrant underground tournament scenes in the world. I'm not sure which side is smarter, since the Marvel players are bitching all the way to the bank, but I'd say the Melee crowd did a better job of following your advice.
    Ok let me rephrase my example as I barely see any bitching about marvel 3 from marvel2 players but whatever
    You dont see tekken players bitching about the changes in recemt tekken games, you dont see soulcalibur IV players bitching about Soulcalibur V(at least in terms of gameplay) you dont see KOF players bitching about The changes in KOFXIII
    what do they all do? They all deal with the changes, they learn to use these changes, etc.
    Now you people seriously need to get grip to changes, if you dont like them, then dont play brawl, go back to melee, amd stop whining your asses off, it can REALLY get annoying at times....
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Too Many Waifus Joined: Posts: 20,912
    Ok let me rephrase my example as I barely see any bitching about marvel 3 from marvel2 players but whatever
    You dont see tekken players bitching about the changes in recemt tekken games, you dont see soulcalibur IV players bitching about Soulcalibur V(at least in terms of gameplay) you dont see KOF players bitching about The changes in KOFXIII
    what do they all do? They all deal with the changes, they learn to use these changes, etc.
    Now you people seriously need to get grip to changes, if you dont like them, then dont play brawl, go back to melee, amd stop whining your asses off, it can REALLY get annoying at times....

    While I agree with the complaining part, I do think that the players need to tell the developers how they felt about the changes. Not mindlessly complain about it for no reason, but actually offer up solutions to the things that they find stupid in the game. (And don't say make Melee 2.0.)

    Like for example, we want more hitstun. Well, how much more? Enough to allow elaborate combos like in Melee, or just enough so we don't have people getting punished for hitting their opponent? (I say Melee hitstun. I feel that combos help balance certain characters; powerhouse characters won't have many combos, but they hit hard. Faster characters have combos so they can rack up the damage and can then try for the kill. N64 hitstun is a bit too much; there were too many TOD combos in N64.)

    We want more shield-stun. How much more? Or perhaps simply make it so grabbing out of shield isn't so godly? Or maybe make it harder to perfect shield? A combination of the three? (I say a combination of the three...though the strength of grabbing out of shield is probably automatically nerfed by increasing shield-stun and making it harder to perfect shield).

    We don't want chain grabs. How do we go about this? Do we make it so the opponent can't be grabbed while in hitstun? Make it so grabs can't connect on airborne opponents? (This one's a tough one...might just be a simple act of character balancing. E.g. on Dedede's down throw, reduce the amount of hitstun it causes so you can actually get away from it.)

    We want the game to be less floaty. Do we simply want the characters to fall faster? Give characters more varying fall speeds? Maybe just make the game less aireal based like Sakurai wanted Brawl to be? (Increasing fall-speed and the max speed that characters fall is probably the best way to go here).

    Thinking about exactly what kind of changes, and telling Sakurai about it (rather than just saying "give us Melee 2.0!") is the way to get changes made, rather than mindlessly complaining. At least that's how I view it.
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  • ph00tbagph00tbag Joined: Posts: 96
    Ok let me rephrase my example as I barely see any bitching about marvel 3 from marvel2 players but whatever
    You dont see tekken players bitching about the changes in recemt tekken games, you dont see soulcalibur IV players bitching about Soulcalibur V(at least in terms of gameplay) you dont see KOF players bitching about The changes in KOFXIII
    what do they all do? They all deal with the changes, they learn to use these changes, etc.
    Now you people seriously need to get grip to changes, if you dont like them, then dont play brawl, go back to melee, amd stop whining your asses off, it can REALLY get annoying at times....
    SCIV players would not complain about changes in V because V is a better game. Same for the move from KOFXII to XIII. This is a completely different story.

    And you're still totally missing the point. The point is, Melee players are not complaining. If asked why they don't play Brawl, sure they'll put in their two cents. That's what this whole thread is about. Outside of that, they're content to go on playing Melee, just like you're saying they should. And not only that, but they do it better than any other community that is playing an old game, with more and larger tournaments than MvC2, or 3S, or GG. So stop whining about whining that isn't even happening. That's what I'm trying to get across to you.
  • M3llow_BalrogM3llow_Balrog Cyberbots player Joined: Posts: 54
    project m, ya'll. project m
  • theonejanitortheonejanitor Joined: Posts: 33
    brawl's not bad, it's just completely different from melee. at the highest level, brawl is played brilliantly by top players. it's less fun to watch than Melee, but it's still a very deep game.
  • THEPROBIGDADYTHEPROBIGDADY Joined: Posts: 4
    to me the attacks are unbalanced or are just particle affects the animations silent and look horrible and if you say that its supposed to build tension it looks like shit and Nintendo is a multi million dollar company the story is dumb its really easy even on extreme difficulty unless you are doing that Yoshi an link vs. Mario and Icarus is fucking impossible and I just had to have a bottle of painkillers in one had and a controller in another I will admit the controls ore nice if you want to win though step 1 press x step 2 hold down x step 3 win plus if you are going to defend Nintendo it makes more money than you do plus it doesn't need defending its a company
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