HD remix and ST.

Quick question is the classic arcade mode the Dreamcast port of ST?

Comments

  • GeorgeCGeorgeC Joined: Posts: 2,850
    Without knowing all the specifics, graphically it MAY be... In all other matters, NO.

    Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix really doesn't control like the original arcade game. I'd say the control is tighter and it doesn't have the timing issues with some of the moves (Dragon Punches, Supers, anyone?) that the original arcade game did. The actual Dreamcast port -- which I still have -- is virtually identical to the arcade game. The "feel"/input of the control on the DC port is identical to the arcade game.

    One extra thing Capcom did with the DC port (and this is when Capcom still ported its own arcade games) was to take advantage of the Dreamcast filtering so that the 320 X 200 arcade game didn't look stretched, fuzzy, or color-bleached on the DC (which runs at 640 X 480 minimum) like some CPS-2 ports did. I'd say the DC port of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo was the prettiest-looking version of the game on any console, bar none. It had a "higher-res" look that was still faithful to the original arcade version. Another thing that appeals to many retro-players is the fact that the DC port has a dip switch mode; you can turn on various effects, enable English, or make Akuma selectable from the Start by entering into a hidden menu. This is the only Capcom fighting game port on any console that I'm aware that allows you to do that.

    Another huge difference is the absence of scoring in the HD Remix. Neither classic graphic mode or HD remix graphic mode on the PSN/XBL download game gives you scoring like the original arcade game did. HD Remix is more concerned with winning rounds and whether you have used continues or not. There's a "magic formula" of rounds won and Supers you have to perform to unlock Akuma and finish the game against him otherwise your final boss will be M. Bison/Vega as it was in the previous SF2 games.

    Yeah, continues and rounds lost do impact in the original arcade game but you get actual "point rewards" for performing Super move takedowns and getting "Perfect's." The lack of scoring and consequences for Perfect's are some of the turn-off's of the HD remix as far as I'm concerned.

    While I do prefer tighter input control for fighters I would say that for past tourney players of SSF2T and diehards messing/rebalancing the controller inputs is probably more upsetting than getting ridding of the Scoring Bar. It means they have to alter the game playing methods they've used for well over 10 years... they're playing 2009/10 edition of SSF2T and NOT one of the 1994 versions they're used to.

    Another thing is that I think HD Remix is considerably easier than the original SSF2T. The rebalanced control helps and there don't seem to be as many overpowering characters as there were with the original arcade game... The characters seem to be better balanced in HD Remix. It's sort of hard to explain -- you just have to play both versions and you'll see what I mean.

    Couldn't say whether Super HD Remix was actually ported from the Dreamcast SSF2T port code... If it was, it's gotta be the developer (which is NOT Capcom; it's an outside hired company) have emulator software that works with BOTH XBox 360 and PS3. Seems to be that's what was done with Marvel Vs Capcom 2 according to some reports. HD Remix and MvC2 are the only "Dreamcast ports" I can directly compare to the originals since I have those for Dreamcast and PSN. I don't have a 360 so I couldn't compare the other Dreamcast ports on XBL but have heard good and bad stories about those...
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    snip

    HDR classic used the DC port as a base, but it's far from performing as well as the DC port, and it's definitely not close to arcade ST.

    The one good thing HDR did was make the DP window consistent, but asides form that, the added input leniency actually changed the timing for many of the game's combo. And as far as the SP concerns are, nobody really gave a damn about how the SP played, it was primarily the politics and poor release timing that hurt this game's long-term reception.

    As far as balance goes, a lot of changes made in HDR were both good, bad, and poorly executed, a combination of which, didn't really please any group within the community.
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    moral of story: dont play a dead game (HDR)
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Or, and I know this might be a stretch for some of you, you could enjoy each for what it is.

    Or *gasp* both of them. Heresy, I know, but it works out surprisingly well!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Or, and I know this might be a stretch for some of you, you could enjoy each for what it is.

    Or *gasp* both of them. Heresy, I know, but it works out surprisingly well!

    A good attitude, I believe players should be playing both games at tournaments whenever they occur. Although currently, ST is encountering somewhat of a revival across the states, and I rarely hear of HDR tourneys being held nowadays at majors or weeklies.
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    Or, and I know this might be a stretch for some of you, you could enjoy each for what it is.

    Or *gasp* both of them. Heresy, I know, but it works out surprisingly well!
    I play both at tourneys when I get the opportunity, and I get what you're saying, but there isn't a chance I'd enjoy HDR even half as much as I enjoy ST unless I was a Honda or Dictator player and liked to support bad re-balance decisions.

    If I was a T.Hawk player, I'd copy the file to a thousand discs and break each of them by hand. And love every second of it. Lucky for me, I'm a Cammy and Claw player, and the former is consistently a piece of shit while the latter is still stupid good in HDR even without the wall dive 50/50 oki he has in ST.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    I play both at tourneys when I get the opportunity, and I get what you're saying, but there isn't a chance I'd enjoy HDR even half as much as I enjoy ST unless I was a Honda or Dictator player and liked to support bad re-balance decisions.

    If I was a T.Hawk player, I'd copy the file to a thousand discs and break each of them by hand. And love every second of it. Lucky for me, I'm a Cammy and Claw player, and the former is consistently a piece of shit while the latter is still stupid good in HDR even without the wall dive 50/50 oki he has in ST.

    Tbh, I don't think Honda players liked the nerf to their ochio, in both positional advantage and stun+damage. But yeah, Bison players got some interesting toys to play with.

    Cammy players hate how one of their best moves, j.strong, got nerfed, which has got to be one of the stupidest design decisions in HDR. Claw is still Claw, although it's nice not being knocked down by his wall dive, which is one of the best changes in HDR.
  • JED07JED07 Sleeping on the floor with the Rats Joined: Posts: 650
    After playing on Unessential's arcade board and then going home to play HDR on my 360 with my bro, I can now see why there's so much hate for HDR.

    HDR is not bad by itself, but when you play both versions on the regular, HDR starts to look very bad.

    I'm talking about the delay and speed differences btw.

    It's bad too, I can't even do TOD on HDR.
    Will puke for ST.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    After playing on Unessential's arcade board and then going home to play HDR on my 360 with my bro, I can now see why there's so much hate for HDR.

    HDR is not bad by itself, but when you play both versions on the regular, HDR starts to look very bad.

    I'm talking about the delay and speed differences btw.

    It's bad too, I can't even do TOD on HDR.

    Yeah, there is that issue with regards to timing of HDR. I honestly treat ST and HDR like two different games, albeit with 80% of them being similar to each other.

    But you can start to see why ST heads will only ever accept arcade ST and nothing else.
  • geadomgeadom Reversal Counter Hit Joined: Posts: 1,085
    Is the classic ST game on HDR good for casuals? What are the changes from the DC port?
    "He´s different, he´s special." Pick up your spear, the only thing you can do is your best
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    Is the classic ST game on HDR good for casuals? What are the changes from the DC port?
    for casuals its ok, as u can have old LD sprites ( but HD backgrounds)
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    old sprites sucks in HDR, idk if they used the snes sprites or are the same arcade sprites but they look horrible in SD/HD tvs. In my case i prefer HDR as it is, remixed music, hd sprites.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

    The Crew - www.nohonorcrew.com/
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Is the classic ST game on HDR good for casuals? What are the changes from the DC port?

    It's fine for casuals. Your second question has somewhat been answered in the posts preceding it. Read up.
    old sprites sucks in HDR, idk if they used the snes sprites or are the same arcade sprites but they look horrible in SD/HD tvs. In my case i prefer HDR as it is, remixed music, hd sprites.

    They look pretty god awful, but I'm sure it has more to do with the fact that it's run on modern televisions, with higher resolutions and widescreen, and it contrasts TERRIBLY with the remixed backgrounds.

    And the SNES sprites were fucking gorgeous for Turbo.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    old sprites sucks in HDR, idk if they used the snes sprites or are the same arcade sprites but they look horrible in SD/HD tvs. In my case i prefer HDR as it is, remixed music, hd sprites.

    IMO ST (from DGV's supergun) looks gorgeous upscaled on my VGA monitor... I think part of the problem is that the graphics scaling in the console does some uglification of its own.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • neweggnewegg MVC3? SSF4AE? Joined: Posts: 60
    ST looks fine upscaled on GGPOFBA, MAME. Not just from supergun.

    It only looks like ass on console with a LCD monitor (HDR sprite or ST LD sprite).

    I don't think the console developers know how to upscale it properly, but the open source PC software developers do.
  • zaspacerzaspacer Joined: Posts: 553
    After playing on Unessential's arcade board and then going home to play HDR on my 360 with my bro, I can now see why there's so much hate for HDR.

    HDR is not bad by itself, but when you play both versions on the regular, HDR starts to look very bad.

    I'm talking about the delay and speed differences btw.

    It's bad too, I can't even do TOD on HDR.

    Are you playing 360 HDR using a CRT?

    Playing HDR on the PS3 or with a monitor with input delay is gonna radically cripple your HDR experience. That's what they had at EVO '09 and I found it unplayable for me. CapCom will be running their 25th Anniversary series on PS3 and I expect they will be using input delay monitors since Asus is one of their sponsors, which is why I won't bother with that either.

    I have HDR running on a 360 using a CRT and it plays very well for me. It's my #1 tool to practice my combos for ST Dictator.
    streetfighterdojo.com - video library of top players
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    ...
    I have HDR running on a 360 using a CRT and it plays very well for me. It's my #1 tool to practice my combos for ST Dictator.

    Be careful: Indications are crouching forward comes out faster in HDR than in ST.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • zaspacerzaspacer Joined: Posts: 553
    Be careful: Indications are crouching forward comes out faster in HDR than in ST.

    Thanks Rufus!

    Yeah, I caught that discovery in the combo vid thread. Odd stuff.

    I Definitely use the cr.Forward a lot in combos, but fortunately I use the "Classic" version for practicing ST combos. :)
    streetfighterdojo.com - video library of top players
  • JED07JED07 Sleeping on the floor with the Rats Joined: Posts: 650
    I have HDR running on a 360 using a CRT and it plays very well for me. It's my #1 tool to practice my combos for ST Dictator.

    Are you shitting me?!

    Shit is godawful either way.

    I was using 360 on a CRT btw.

    I just play on ggpo now anyway.
    Will puke for ST.
  • zaspacerzaspacer Joined: Posts: 553
    Are you shitting me?!

    Shit is godawful either way.

    I was using 360 on a CRT btw.

    I just play on ggpo now anyway.

    Well, 360 on CRT works for me feel-wise, so I guess to each their own.

    I have only played GGPO (online ggpo and offline ggpofba) on crap LCDs, so I can't really give much quality feedback on them.

    A few of us have plans to test the various set-ups to document input lag, hopefully that will help people figure out set-ups that fit their needs.
    streetfighterdojo.com - video library of top players
  • 7 5 07 5 0 Joined: Posts: 467
    Without knowing all the specifics, graphically it MAY be... In all other matters, NO.

    Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix really doesn't control like the original arcade game. I'd say the control is tighter and it doesn't have the timing issues with some of the moves (Dragon Punches, Supers, anyone?) that the original arcade game did. The actual Dreamcast port -- which I still have -- is virtually identical to the arcade game. The "feel"/input of the control on the DC port is identical to the arcade game.

    One extra thing Capcom did with the DC port (and this is when Capcom still ported its own arcade games) was to take advantage of the Dreamcast filtering so that the 320 X 200 arcade game didn't look stretched, fuzzy, or color-bleached on the DC (which runs at 640 X 480 minimum) like some CPS-2 ports did. I'd say the DC port of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo was the prettiest-looking version of the game on any console, bar none. It had a "higher-res" look that was still faithful to the original arcade version. Another thing that appeals to many retro-players is the fact that the DC port has a dip switch mode; you can turn on various effects, enable English, or make Akuma selectable from the Start by entering into a hidden menu. This is the only Capcom fighting game port on any console that I'm aware that allows you to do that.

    Another huge difference is the absence of scoring in the HD Remix. Neither classic graphic mode or HD remix graphic mode on the PSN/XBL download game gives you scoring like the original arcade game did. HD Remix is more concerned with winning rounds and whether you have used continues or not. There's a "magic formula" of rounds won and Supers you have to perform to unlock Akuma and finish the game against him otherwise your final boss will be M. Bison/Vega as it was in the previous SF2 games.

    Yeah, continues and rounds lost do impact in the original arcade game but you get actual "point rewards" for performing Super move takedowns and getting "Perfect's." The lack of scoring and consequences for Perfect's are some of the turn-off's of the HD remix as far as I'm concerned.

    While I do prefer tighter input control for fighters I would say that for past tourney players of SSF2T and diehards messing/rebalancing the controller inputs is probably more upsetting than getting ridding of the Scoring Bar. It means they have to alter the game playing methods they've used for well over 10 years... they're playing 2009/10 edition of SSF2T and NOT one of the 1994 versions they're used to.

    Another thing is that I think HD Remix is considerably easier than the original SSF2T. The rebalanced control helps and there don't seem to be as many overpowering characters as there were with the original arcade game... The characters seem to be better balanced in HD Remix. It's sort of hard to explain -- you just have to play both versions and you'll see what I mean.

    Couldn't say whether Super HD Remix was actually ported from the Dreamcast SSF2T port code... If it was, it's gotta be the developer (which is NOT Capcom; it's an outside hired company) have emulator software that works with BOTH XBox 360 and PS3. Seems to be that's what was done with Marvel Vs Capcom 2 according to some reports. HD Remix and MvC2 are the only "Dreamcast ports" I can directly compare to the originals since I have those for Dreamcast and PSN. I don't have a 360 so I couldn't compare the other Dreamcast ports on XBL but have heard good and bad stories about those...

    Magnificent post
    +1
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