Hardest Characters To Use?

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  • MILFMILF Level... Joined: Posts: 1,561
    Iron man
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  • Natureboy477Natureboy477 Joined: Posts: 149
    I'm sorry, I had to come back to this. How can anyone say Viper is harder to learn than MODOK, and that her movement is easier that MODOK? Viper can actually walk! She has an air-dash, which is quite fast, and gives her good pressure, even though air-dashing was meant to be nerfed. Modok on the other hand can't even walk. And his 'movement' is really slow. It's easier to get in with Viper than MODOK.

    And at least you can say Viper has braindead stuff! Viper ball and rapid seismo's may not be easy, but they aren't the core of her play- her normal magic series is as simple as anyone's. You can even cancel her thunder knuckle now, so she can do even more damage. Even if you say the cube loops are relatively simpler, getting MODOK into a situation where he can do his magic series, let alone the cube loops takes extreme effort!.

    It's harder to learn how to use MODOK effectively than it is to use Viper effectively. And I'm talking from experience of using both characters.
    That's cute. No, really.

    You're acting like Modok's bad movement makes him hard to use. It doesn't even matter that he can't get in, because he's not that bad at zoning. Viper and Modok both have braindead stuff. Afaik, Modok has no advanced tech. iAD and cube combos are about as difficult as it gets. Sure Viper's braindead stuff is easy to learn, but you're going to have a shit Viper if you don't learn how to apply it properly. A good magic series doesn't have any use with her shit normals, and if you're doing ground chain instead of box dash or lightning cancels, you have a shit Viper.

    Saying Rapid Seismos aren't a "core" of her play leads me to believe you know even less. Rapid Seismos are what make some of her matchups so free.

    You're exactly the type of person I was referring to when I said that low tier=/=hard to use thing.
  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 592
    That's cute. No, really.

    You're acting like Modok's bad movement makes him hard to use. It doesn't even matter that he can't get in, because he's not that bad at zoning. Viper and Modok both have braindead stuff. Afaik, Modok has no advanced tech. iAD and cube combos are about as difficult as it gets. Sure Viper's braindead stuff is easy to learn, but you're going to have a shit Viper if you don't learn how to apply it properly. A good magic series doesn't have any use with her shit normals, and if you're doing ground chain instead of box dash or lightning cancels, you have a shit Viper.

    Saying Rapid Seismos aren't a "core" of her play leads me to believe you know even less. Rapid Seismos are what make some of her matchups so free.

    You're exactly the type of person I was referring to when I said that low tier=/=hard to use thing.

    Why can't people state their views with resorting to sarcasm and rudeness? That said, if my response seemed like an attack on you of any sort (other than to say I disagreed with you lol), I apologise.

    I'm not one of those people who think "low tier=/=hard to use". I think Ghost Rider's easy to use, but is low tier. Conversely, I think Zero's hard to use, but top tier. That said, I don't think ease of use, or difficulty of use, have any bearing on a characters tier, not that it was part of the question anyway.

    Another thing, I said Rapid Seismos weren't the core of her play, being deliberate with my choice of words. Combined with other tools, such as the Viper Ball you mentioned, box dashes and her movement etc, along with good fundamentals, and a good choice of assist, they make a high level Viper. But I meant that they weren't the only thing you needed to play Viper. You could still use her if you couldn't do that (but had everything else down), though maybe not to the same level as those who can.

    To keep it short, I didn't say Viper is easy to use. I think both characters are complex, but I still say MODOK's harder to use.

    Edit: Note that I said I disagreed with you, not that you were wrong, because I could be wrong lol.
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  • Natureboy477Natureboy477 Joined: Posts: 149
    Why can't people state their views with resorting to sarcasm and rudeness? That said, if my response seemed like an attack on you of any sort (other than to say I disagreed with you lol), I apologise.

    I'm not one of those people who think "low tier=/=hard to use". I think Ghost Rider's easy to use, but is low tier. Conversely, I think Zero's hard to use, but top tier. That said, I don't think ease of use, or difficulty of use, have any bearing on a characters tier, not that it was part of the question anyway.

    Another thing, I said Rapid Seismos weren't the core of her play, being deliberate with my choice of words. Combined with other tools, such as the Viper Ball you mentioned, box dashes and her movement etc, along with good fundamentals, and a good choice of assist, they make a high level Viper. But I meant that they weren't the only thing you needed to play Viper. You could still use her if you couldn't do that (but had everything else down), though maybe not to the same level as those who can.

    To keep it short, I didn't say Viper is easy to use. I think both characters are complex, but I still say MODOK's harder to use.

    Edit: Note that I said I disagreed with you, not that you were wrong, because I could be wrong lol.
    I don't want to start an argument over this. I hope I didn't sound sarcastic and rude - I'm just naturally like that.
  • TG CidTG Cid BATHSALT DEALER Joined: Posts: 141
    Hulk anyone? You can only mash heavy so many times until people catch on...
  • Natureboy477Natureboy477 Joined: Posts: 149
    Hulk anyone? You can only mash heavy so many times until people catch on...
    That's when you start doing ground throws. Shit takes insane levels of skill and concentration.
  • GemakaiGemakai Making this look cool! Joined: Posts: 1,088
    To be quite honest I'm surprised at people saying Iron Fist is hard to use. Don't get me wrong, it's hard to get in with him, but hard to use, he is not. Get a stray s.M in and you practically got a kill combo by himself.

    The hardest to use I'd say goes to Firebrand for his somewhat awkward command dashes, Iron Man for his fly unfly combos and weird air dash, and MODOK for his unorthodox combos.
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  • Natureboy477Natureboy477 Joined: Posts: 149
    To be quite honest I'm surprised at people saying Iron Fist is hard to use. Don't get me wrong, it's hard to get in with him, but hard to use, he is not. Get a stray s.M in and you practically got a kill combo by himself.

    The hardest to use I'd say goes to Firebrand for his somewhat awkward command dashes, Iron Man for his fly unfly combos and weird air dash, and MODOK for his unorthodox combos.
    I play Firebrand when I'm not playing Zero (-.-) and he really isn't as hard as people think. Command dashes aren't really "akward" they just take a bit of time to get adjusted too if you've played Magnus or any other air dash reliant character. I'd say Modok is easy, but I already had an argument about that. Iron Man though, is pretty difficult. His combos are easy as hell (this probably comes from me playing Painwheel in SkullGirls, but meh), but his movement is the hardest to adapt to in the game. That air dash is so weird (why CapCom, why?). UniBeam isn't that great a zoning tool. But, like everyother character in this game, he is quite fraud-friendly. Dat repulsor blast!
  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 592
    I play Firebrand when I'm not playing Zero (-.-) and he really isn't as hard as people think. Command dashes aren't really "akward" they just take a bit of time to get adjusted too if you've played Magnus or any other air dash reliant character. I'd say Modok is easy, but I already had an argument about that.

    My bad for that lol, I did kind of start it.

    On a more general note, when we say hardest to use, is there a differentiating between, learning combos and techniques and then actually using a character in a match? Like how Gemkai mentioned Iron Fist above. It's easy to learn his combos, but actually using him in a match is fairly difficult due to his inability to get in. And I agree with the Iron Man talk in Natureboy477's comment above.

    EDIT: With some of the more basic characters in the game, it would seem that the trade off for their simplicity would be difficult in terms of match ups, lack an answer to zoning, are weak in the air etc. But some of the more challenging characters to learn to use such as Magneto and Zero are compensated by having great mobility, or in Zero's case, being Zero lol.
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • GemakaiGemakai Making this look cool! Joined: Posts: 1,088
    I play Firebrand when I'm not playing Zero (-.-) and he really isn't as hard as people think. Command dashes aren't really "akward" they just take a bit of time to get adjusted too if you've played Magnus or any other air dash reliant character. I'd say Modok is easy, but I already had an argument about that.

    Yea, when I think about it. Firebrand isn't too difficult (I actually have more trouble with Magneto but that's cause my execution with air dashes like that is terribad). I still think MODOK is challenging to use, but not necessarilly a bad character.
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  • LouieBHLouieBH Delta Red Joined: Posts: 579
    Thread asks hardest character to use period.

    doesnt talk about barriers to entry like execution.

    If we go by effort alone, Hsien Ko takes this by requiring more from a player assuming he has mastered every character indefinitely.
  • TheSurefireGamerTheSurefireGamer Grappler Specialist. Joined: Posts: 1,210
    Jill, hands down.

    Even with Max's Tutorial, it still takes so much time to learn her combos, how to approach, when to use her Special Moves and Hypers, which assists to use...

    And don't even get me started on her Level 3.
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  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    Jill, Iron man, Modok, Chunli, Shuma
    Those characters have execution heavy heavy combos compared to most characters and difficult neutrals to master let alone get used to. Viper and morrigan are slightly below. Viper's neutral, all ex-seismo jokes aside, is difficult to abuse as well as morrigan. A lot of people are confusing bad with difficult to use. Hulk is probably the easiest character in the game, but he is by no means very good.

    I don't see how 90% of the people here do not have shuma on that last. For maximum efficiency hitconfirms, you have to be dashing into charge partitioned moves. His neutral is also extremely difficult to play as you have to be constantly holding charges in a game that's 500 times faster than a game where charge moves are more fit like sf4. He can also be thrown out of everything, so you have to play extremely cautiously. His combos are also long and involve multiple links and charges (especially midscreen). Due to the extreme hit stun deterioration on his normals, his most efficient hit confirms are harder than iron man's. I've honestly given up on his midscreen throw hitconfirms, so I've just gone back to doom because his air throw can be hard tagged into doom's standing medium. The most efficient shuma midscreen throw hitconfirm is from some Japanese video, and it's ridiculously annoying to pull off: Mystic ray Down charge (while holding back charge) charge partition, dash, return to back charge, standing light, transition to down back charge, cm ch, mystic stare... combo. This is why nobody plays the character. He is hard and bad. His somewhat good assist does not compensate for this. . . similar to chun li.
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  • Din0Din0 Retired Joined: Posts: 4,158
    Because no one knows shit about Shuma =/


    Strange and Iron Man are the hardest to use IMO, everything they do is so unsafe, high execution, and hard to convert.

    I actually think Dante is as hard to learn as Mags if not harder. His combos are easier but his neutral is tough to pilot against people who know what they're doing and aren't running into random jS/Hammer spam. Plus, the game lets you play Mags how you want. Sometimes the game will just fuck with you and make your Stinger shoot the opponent in the other direction or make you Reverb Shock xx Fireworks in the wrong direction and get punished and die.
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  • brainpipebrainpipe SCIENCE! Joined: Posts: 1,135
    I'm sorry, I had to come back to this. How can anyone say Viper is harder to learn than MODOK, and that her movement is easier that MODOK? Viper can actually walk! She has an air-dash, which is quite fast, and gives her good pressure, even though air-dashing was meant to be nerfed. Modok on the other hand can't even walk. And his 'movement' is really slow. It's easier to get in with Viper than MODOK.

    And at least you can say Viper has braindead stuff! Viper ball and rapid seismo's may not be easy, but they aren't the core of her play- her normal magic series is as simple as anyone's. You can even cancel her thunder knuckle now, so she can do even more damage. Even if you say the cube loops are relatively simpler, getting MODOK into a situation where he can do his magic series, let alone the cube loops takes extreme effort!.

    It's harder to learn how to use MODOK effectively than it is to use Viper effectively. And I'm talking from experience of using both characters.

    Modok has some of the best movement in the game. People just don't abuse it, or see it being abused very often due to lack of player base. It just isn't as obvious as Viper's. Modok is also not quite as hard as people think in general. The most difficult/practical thing that you need to learn his how his basic hit confirms work. They go off a staggered up down magic series and can be easy to drop, or whiff depending on opponent sizes/distances. There are a lot of subtle timing aspects to some of his extended combos, but a reasonable amount of time in training mode can sort that out.

    Doing something like repeated seismo cancelling for Viper feels a lot more difficult than most of what Modok does. But general use of Modok's neutral game is a lot more complex and subtle than a character like Viper, who has a bit more of a straight forward neutral game/normals and can literally plow through anything with ex moves and punish assist calls for free with seismos.

    But as far as movement is concerned, Modok's air dashes take him enormous distances very quickly, and he can almost instantly call assists from super jump height to protect/mask them. not to mention he has one of the fastest tri jumps in the game for moving forward and backward, and a very fast plink dash.
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  • LouieBHLouieBH Delta Red Joined: Posts: 579
    shuma has charge partitioning lolwut? that changes everything

    ^I agree with the above post im not sure what would be classed as harder:

    A character with 5-10 subtleties needed to be played effectively eg. chun,viper modok,jill

    or characters with big gaping holes that are viable but need to be compensated by player skill eg thor,hulk and the like
  • Bighead902Bighead902 (>^.^)> Hug Time Joined: Posts: 70
    Jill, Rocket Raccoon, Magento, C. Viper, Shuma and Doctor Strange
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  • HusteenHusteen We have a problem. Joined: Posts: 1,555
    i'm thinking morrigan. she's difficult to use effectively, anyways.
  • TG CidTG Cid BATHSALT DEALER Joined: Posts: 141
    Nemises is a big walking slow ass hitbox with a rocket launcher that goes over everyones head without crouching. Aiming that shit takes skill son.
  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    Ugh Shuma is so yuck. If you even try to do magic series, yeah it works but you get like 300k. Terrible, terrible character. He has some room to grow, but his weaknesses are unbelievable. I don't even like his best tools (level 3; mystic ray assist). All of his pros have heavy cons.
    Mystic ray- hitstun or blockstun ends almost instantly. Level 3 can't be followed up (to the best of my knowledge) and doesn't do THAT much damage even fully mashed level 3 (hard to fully mash). His Mystic Stare goes away when he gets hit. Combos are finicky as hell and only does a ton of damage (i.e. combo doesn't drop) if the planets line up on a leap year. Someone please prove me wrong, because losing with him is infuriating.
  • iminthenet2iminthenet2 Joined: Posts: 488
    Tron Bonne because she received some nerfs from vanilla Marvel 3.
  • JetpackJesus808JetpackJesus808 I wish Lee was in SFxT Joined: Posts: 847
    Tron Bonne because she received some nerfs from vanilla Marvel 3.
    And? Does it make a difference? She's still mid-tier in my eyes, one can only be so bad or so hard when theyre essentially Hulk + 2-way Airdash - Armor moves + Sentinel.

    Now when it comes to Hard-To-Use Characters, Shuma's charge-partitioning (did i spell that right?) and Chun/IM's iffy combos and hard hitconfirms take the cake. The fact that they are all short on options is simply the icing.
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  • .Guy..Guy. STUPID SEXY ROCKET RACCOON! Joined: Posts: 1,910
    <That guy

    Actually, no, not really.

    I'm gonna say thinking RR is hard to play is wrong. But you probably won't believe me because most try to play RR in a way that is suicidal.
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  • SNAAAAKESNAAAAKE WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!? Joined: Posts: 13,036 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Wesker

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  • Deth-ScyanydeDeth-Scyanyde The Lost Messiah... Joined: Posts: 626
    Vergil, Wesker and Wolverine.

    Meh...more like Top 3 most braindead characters in the game, period.
    I'm on random accounts on XBL, good luck finding me...LOL!
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    Thank you SRK UMVC3 general discussion posters for proving once again sarcasm is beyond your grasp.
  • REPTILE 0009REPTILE 0009 Joined: Posts: 83
    I really don’t understand why characters like Chun-Li and Iron Man have such a high execution barrier, especially since Chun-Li’s damage output/meter gain isn’t great, even with her extremely difficult combos.
  • o Rebelli0n xo Rebelli0n x Mt. Yermomalot Joined: Posts: 42
    Meh...more like Top 3 most braindead characters in the game, period.
    What's so wrong with this team? I play this team and I do alright when it comes to thinking
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  • o Rebelli0n xo Rebelli0n x Mt. Yermomalot Joined: Posts: 42
    Also, Phoenix Wright, Shuma, and Jill are by far the hardest to use. Only reason not chun is because of tri jump combo 123123123s assist hyper is solid
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  • FuLLBLeeDFuLLBLeeD KC SRK Supreme Godking Joined: Posts: 2,158
    Shuma Gorath is fucking hard yo
  • Brewski_420Brewski_420 Jumping S until it works. Joined: Posts: 181
    Shuma is freaking insane to play ESPECIALLY since i play him on pad. After running some long sets my wrist actually gets sore from holding charge the whole time.Not to mention i have dropped about 90% of the combos i have tried after working so hard to get in. He requires a ton of dedication and practice.
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  • GameHovaGameHova O.N.I.F.C. Joined: Posts: 562
    Shuma is freaking insane to play ESPECIALLY since i play him on pad. After running some long sets my wrist actually gets sore from holding charge the whole time.Not to mention i have dropped about 90% of the combos i have tried after working so hard to get in. He requires a ton of dedication and practice.

    :lol: Ghost Rider, Hsien-Ko, Shuma-Gorath

    I bet this team is secretly high tier i can just see it like Tron, Thor, She hulk
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  • Death By NinesDeath By Nines Voyeur Joined: Posts: 581
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  • TimTimTimTim T-T-T-Timmay! Joined: Posts: 1,329
    Viper and Iron Guy are definitely the two hardest neutral game characters but the hardest to play is xf3 on lv.3 jill.
    Lol at people saying coon, chun, and modok are hardest. They aren't easy but don't take more than a week to learn. Chun is potentially hard I think she's just trash tbh.
    Idk about shuma never used him.
    Just a lazy prick.
  • stickyJstickyJ Joined: Posts: 22
    Morrigan has to be among the hardest to use effectively. I don't even mean the fireball trap and flight cancels, just moving around with her is tough. Not that I'm really good or anything, but I think this is a character that requires both good execution and a keen understanding of positioning just to be competent with her
  • Natureboy477Natureboy477 Joined: Posts: 149
    Viper and Iron Guy are definitely the two hardest neutral game characters but the hardest to play is xf3 on lv.3 jill.
    Lol at people saying coon, chun, and modok are hardest. They aren't easy but don't take more than a week to learn. Chun is potentially hard I think she's just trash tbh.
    Idk about shuma never used him.
    >neutral game
    >Marvel 3

    No.

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  • TimTimTimTim T-T-T-Timmay! Joined: Posts: 1,329
    >neutral game
    >Marvel 3

    No.

    Also, inb4 "grew texting outside of 4chan lol hurr durr."
    If you say so.
    Just a lazy prick.
  • ShogunFlowShogunFlow Stream Warrior Joined: Posts: 801
    I don't think Morrigan is too difficult to use. She has a ton of options and great movement in the air. Once you figure out which part of the screen you can control its really all about maximizing your damage output once you get that first hit.
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  • irl II Wilsonirl II Wilson Joined: Posts: 416
    magneto
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  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 13,217
    Shuma Gorath is fucking hard yo
    use his jS. The he'll be really hard.
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  • MikeySupremeMikeySupreme 2Dbasedgod Joined: Posts: 215
    >neutral game
    >Marvel 3

    No.

    Also, inb4 "greentexting outside of 4chan lol hurr durr."
    reported
  • gottnoskillgottnoskill Joined: Posts: 853
    If we are talking about using the characters on a high level of play then I'd have to go with the ones who do not have a practical moves for just about every situation and take a pretty decent knowledge of execution. This means you have to think about every situation and what you have at your disposal to use and then you need to know how to pull off your moves.

    Chun-Li
    Hsien-Ko
    Shuma
    Tron
    Iron Fist
    R.R.
    Ghost Rider
    Jill
    MODOK
    Iron Man
    Viper?

    Granted I don't play a lot of these characters seriously and I felt like just making this list for funsies. A lot of these characters have an abundance of restrictions and limitations compared to others which I took into account. I personally have played Viper since Vanilla and after learning the basics of her neutral game and building off a solid foundation I can say for a fact that she isn't as hard once you understand her capabilities (I'm talking outside of derp EX moves). She doesn't have dumb block strings that are completely safe, hence you see top viper's doing TK cancels a lot when advance guard comes. Her combos are not as hard as people think, but they take effort and understanding body control and the many hit-confirms that come with them. And whoever says Seismo control is not the core of her game is an absolute idiot. Without seismic hammer's you are allowing the opponent so much freedom to run their game plan.
  • awkward_comboawkward_combo Joined: Posts: 56
    I personally found C Viper really hard to use.
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  • SerrisSerris ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) Joined: Posts: 375
    I really don’t understand why characters like Chun-Li and Iron Man have such a high execution barrier, especially since Chun-Li’s damage output/meter gain isn’t great, even with her extremely difficult combos.


    I agree with your assessment of Iron Man, though.
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  • mkryumkryu Joined: Posts: 150
    I don't think Morrigan is too difficult to use. She has a ton of options and great movement in the air. Once you figure out which part of the screen you can control its really all about maximizing your damage output once you get that first hit.

    Her flight cancels take some work to master. Bullet hell is harder to do than it looks. Her combos involving soul fist cancels aren't that easy to execute and her damage output isn't that high. One thing that frustrates me is when I accidentally activate her Level 3 Darkness Illusion when all I wanted was after air Soul Fist, flight cancel then air dash forward.

    Scrub Morrigan, on the other hand, is easy to use. Just spam her high priority Shell Kick and then mash low jab (which doesn't even hit low). If low jab hit confirms for a few hits, go into launcher and then BBC, land, Shadow Servant. Or Activate Astral Vision and throw out 1 Soul Fist or Soul Drain at a time.
  • Hiryu25Hiryu25 Joined: Posts: 8
    How about deadpool? Isn't he difficult to use in a match against the top tiers?
  • TheOdinSonTheOdinSon Joined: Posts: 29
    I don't understand why everyone isn't saying Spiderman.

    Landing OTG's with web zip is harder than to peeing with a boner.
    His combos are actually much more difficult to perform in X-factor.

    Then there is Thor. He's not hard to use, just not fraud friendly enough for me I guess.
    thor.gif
  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 592
    And whoever says Seismo control is not the core of her game is an absolute idiot. Without seismic hammer's you are allowing the opponent so much freedom to run their game plan.

    Not to beat a dead horse, I said (rapid) seismos weren't the core, but a core of Vipers play. I'm not going to go tit for tat with insults over you calling me an idiot (wouldn't a simple 'you're wrong suffice?). But the reason I said it's not the singular important element of her game is she has a the variety of tools at her disposal, from double jumps to burn kick feints, her focus attack, buster, air dash, impressive throw box, and not to mention the fact that there are assists in the game. Combining this with characters being able to use flight, double jumps and triple jumps, air moves, or super jumps, and further extend the time they can stay in the air through air moves, so they can still launch an offence while avoiding (rapid) seismos, to say seismo control is the core of C. Viper's game is rather simplistic.


    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • gottnoskillgottnoskill Joined: Posts: 853
    Snip

    My bad for venting. Uncalled for with the idiot part and I didn't mean to direct it at anyone. I still have to disagree though. Seismic Hammer is the core of her game. If you lack the will to learn and use it properly what reliable moves does that leave you with of her? j.L j.H and those are off of a tri-dash and initial jump and you need to be VERY close to them to use it successfully (BTW they are god-like up close). cr.M is your only other normal you can use in neutral game, but it is slow and if you use that wrong you widen your hit-box twice the size of Viper's body for an easy hit. You have laser which is reliable but the ugliness of that move is recovery and if you don't have meter at your disposal then bye bye. Double jump and burning kick feints are great and all, but they're used to place yourself in situations where you are avoid specific setups, change typical landing plans and place yourself in adventageous situations. I am not saying this isn't great for her because i believe if you learn viper YOU NEED TO LEARN PROPER BK/FEINTS. This tech alone is strong and is the essence of her unpredictability in the air and it helps her avoid a lot of things in the game that other characters (even magneto) can't avoid. BK/feints are possibly the best thing for her counter offensive options from the air. EX. Seismo is awesome and I would say is her best move at her disposal, but it costs meter, and you will not get a ToD off an EX seismo. EX.TK is a guess in neutral game and EX.BK is a 5 frame moves that is essentially safe for the most part (-1 on block). Burning kick has an awesome hitbox on it but is only useful with an assist to cover. Her best Burning kicks are so unsafe and lackluster you if you don't know how to use them right, and even when you do know how to use them they're situational and best used off lockdown mix-ups. Thunderknuckles are god-like but only if you can keep them on the ground. Focus attack? Counter move and unblockable setups. Enough said on that.

    So where does this leave us now? Viper is a beast character up close with fast air moves and great counter abilities, but they can't be abused and you need to have an idea what the opponent might try. Mid-range game you're only reliable offensive moves are Medium.TK. Your counter moves mid-range are EX. Seismo and burning kick (+ assist for cover). Far range Viper? Laser? maybe tiger knee super jump forward heavy burning kick with an assist and bk/feints to get close.

    Viper without focus on seismic hammer would be strictly ground vs ground and somewhat air vs ground. Basically every time you get mid range Viper is thinking (dont jump dont jump dont jump FUCK!) If the opponent has great escape tools they can avoid you all day.

    Now what happens when we focus on using proper seismic hammers? 16 frame start-up move that once active is 8 frames anti-air and can be jumped canceled or FADC'ed to keep safe? This move is an extension of her normal game. Close range you can use it as a GREAT anti-air. Works wonder's on magneto's and tri-dash characters and works 100X better on characters who don't have that type of mobility and I don't care what move you have at your disposal. Pizza Slicer, dive kick, helm breaker you see an opponent closing in on your from superjump height you throw one of those light seismic hammers down it beats all that 10 out of 10 times. You can hit confirm a anti-air light seismo into stair kick loop for 800k. Hard to do but once you understand your opportunity it's easy.

    Mid-range seismic hammer is there for control of the screen and zoning purposes. You cannot get in on her for free. Throw an assist out there? You can react to it and murder that assist. What happens after you hit that assist? Point character needs to come in and stop you. Perfect opportunity for proper counter.

    Same thing for her far range Viper game. Seismic hammer allows her to not get zoned to death. The opponent needs to keep in mind of EX.TK yes but there are ways around it and you can bait that move out so bad and then you either have dead viper, waste x-factor or waste 2 meters to save her. This is where smart players with magneto's and Doom missiles or vergil's like to set-up their game. Safely get in an assist from far range and start their offensive barrage. (Something that FChamp did a lot). rapid seismo from far range to stuff the setup and continue the zoning onslaught.

    I've already wasted too much time on this post and I haven't even really said everything seismic hammer can do. Basically proper Rapid Seismo's limits the opponents game plan and makes the opponent have to take risks i don't care what team you're running. Seismic hammer is a 16 frame normal that has no recovery time and is 8 frames active. It gives Viper the ability to cover 3/4's of the screen from the ground and makes them come to you so you do not have to go to them. Proper seismic hammer usage can stuff characters coming in from super jump range and normal jump if they're intent on coming from the air at you. I still believe this is core to her game. If you don't believe me that is fine. Without focus on Seismic hammers you're limiting Viper to having to get in with tri-dash, bk/feints and hopefully the opponent stays on the ground and hopefully he doesn't have good AA normals and maybe he presses a button when you Ex. Seismo. That is a lot to hope for the opponent to do/not to have in a game where you need to jump to survive in most cases. Basically Viper becomes a character that has to take unnecessary risks to get a hit if you don't have a proper seismo game. If you do have a proper seismo game then the opponent has to take risks to get in.
  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 592
    ...

    Appreciate it (and I have a lot of respect for you for the info you've provided throughout the forum on Viper). And to be honest, if you say it, then it's probably right lol.

    To try and remain as close to the question as possible, I guess I just took a very basic approach to how I viewed characters, in that if I felt a character has some simple practical abilities, such as decent normals and mobility, with the LMHS-Air MMHS (relaunch) Hyper (such as Captain America), then I wouldn't say they were as hard as people who a found more challenging such as Hsien-Ko, and M.O.D.O.K who may lack some of those attributes I mentioned. Though admittedly, you'd be playing no where near a optimized level with any character if you relied on basic things and didn't utilized the advanced technology, which is were using a character may become more complex.

    On a side note I need to add Hsien-Ko and Magneto to my list of hard characters to use lol
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
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