I WANNA SERIOUS FIGHT! - Lion Thread

ParryPerson.ParryPerson. It is done.Joined: Posts: 4,011
Really more of a placeholder, as info on FS Lion is pretty rare, but I promise I'll add whatever info anyone finds to the original post (this) and format it well.

Lets break down this guy, ask questions, and help each other out.

"YOU BETTER TAKE ME SERIOUSLY!"
Avatar by Muffin
#LAFGC on EFNet

<MrWizard> ive pre banned parry from evo south
<[Parry]> This is because I ditched helping on the smash brackets isn't it
<MrWizard> yep

Comments

  • darksoul173darksoul173 HORI AT THEE Joined: Posts: 1,095
    6P+K+G P+K is your new god, seriously this move is awesome high-guard break and setup a 44KP+K launcher if the opponent blocks

    and.. 44K P+K P 43P+K 6PP for a nice combo
    "Playing card games is just like making love, you usually do it on a table and you always feel deep shame when it's finished
    also the older you gets the less fun it is"
  • DoctorForHireDoctorForHire Cpt. Troy Handsome Joined: Posts: 87
    As far as general strategy goes I hope you like lows. Cause you're gonna be using a lot of them.

    2_6P+K→44P+K→46K→9P→46P+K→46K+G→2_6P+K→P→43P+K→66P+KP→8P+K = 145 Damage Wall combo. As seen in this video. @2:04



    Does anyone know if any of his BnBs from Ver. C still work? Or if any of the frame data on VFDC wiki is updated?
    Courage isn't just a matter of not being afraid. It's being afraid and doing what you have to do anyway.
  • CrownicornCrownicorn Joined: Posts: 8
    I love Lion for the same reasons I loved Pit in Brawl. His cheesy childish ridiculous voice acting.
  • DroogyDroogy I Respect the Foot Dive Joined: Posts: 48
    I think I've finally simply switched over to Lion being my main and Eileen being my second instead of vice-versa. I'm still trying to find out what good choices for combos with lion are because I get alot farther with him just with the game plan of "GET THEM ON THE GROUND" and use up+punch to extend damage. I've noticed that if you can somehow get 2 OTG hits on someone, welcome to damage-town because your opponent is too mad to think and won't roll out of the way like they should. Of course thats not viable on higher level players but stillyet.
    XBLA:DescendantDroog
  • CrownicornCrownicorn Joined: Posts: 8
    2_6P+K→44P+K→46K→9P→46P+K→46K+G→2_6P+K→P→43P+K→66P+KP→8P+K = 145 Damage Wall combo.
    Sorry if this is a stupid question, (I'm new) How do I translate the numbers into button presses/joystick directions?
  • ChanchaiChanchai VF Fanatic. KOF Wannabe. Joined: Posts: 677
    (note, the numeric system takes the numbers from the numeric keypad which will be diagrammed below. You assume your character is on the player 1 side, so 4 is back, and 6 is forward. Underscore translates into a sustained direction hold before the next input, so 2_ typically means that you hold down before you go to the next move--actually it really just means you need to be crouching)

    789
    456
    123

    While a lot of BnBs still work, there are better combos now for Lion, thanks in large part to the bound system and the upgrade to his elbow.

    Typically, when you experiment with combos you want to see if you can do the following from a high float:
    Launcher --> 46P+K --> 43P+K --> 6PP

    46P+K can be replaced with 6_P(G) or 2P in many cases.

    When this launcher does not work, a simple 6PP often works.

    I would say that Lion's game has improved drastically in Final Showdown. His core game is strong, and it is much easier to punish low attacks with him now because he can do elbow from crouching (without buffering a backdash).

    1K now combos on MC (on lighter characters, you can actually do the combo I listed above, but against Akira and heavier, just do 6PP).

    44K is still a really important move as it is a consistent source of damage, it can still whiff-punish from a backdash bait pretty good (but the length has been shortened drastically so you have to know the new range to do this). Like before, it is a high attack so you cannot just spam it. You want to punish whiffs from around elbow range (used to be sidekick range) and there are ways to open the opponent up for guaranteed hit such as the above-mentioned guard break (another reason Lion is so strong now).

    Lion can still be played in a very flashy way, but you will have to change a lot of the components since a lot of tweaks were made to his more flashy attacks.

    His back-turned game, while still strong, is weaker than before imo. But it's still good imo, but also not as well understood by most.

    With the changes to the throwing game, Lion's throw game is a virtual 50/50 because he has good throws that end in either direction of forward or back. The Final Showdown throw system basically upgraded Lion's throw game.

    Learning to do damage around the wall will be a huge benefit to any Lion. Here's an example combo that does a lot of damage on pretty much everyone when their back is against the wall:

    9K --> 9P --> 46P+K --> 46K+G --> 6_KK --> 8P+K (the 8P+K is not guaranteed but it's not easy for Lion's opponent to tech away from getting hit by this).

    Lion still has an arsenal of low attacks that can get free points off of your opponent, but you still have to be careful if they catch on. The purpose of the lows are to setup your opponent up for scarier things. If you do the lows too much against a good opponent, it's too much risk for a tiny series of small rewards.

    His from crouch uppercut is now 2_3P and this is a good change. The move is still one of his best launchers though it requires a counter-hit, but it is less cheezy than in the past. In the past, it won a lot of situations that defied the frames (which made it so good). It broke rules in unique ways that people did not really document. It very rarely does this now, if ever, so you have to play it more according to the rules. But it is still awesome.

    Anyways, I know I did not make an organized faq here and I wrote tidbits about how Lion's game has been tweaked here and there. But the information will eventually come out, and I will say that Lion is definitely upgraded and strong in Final Showdown. Especially compared to VF5c.

    If there was a way to summarize it: "He can still be flashy and still have an array of lows, mids, half-circulars, and a not-bad throwing game... but he has gotten really strong even as a play-it-straightforward theory character."

    He is so strong even when you just play him as straightforward VF (not nearly as true in previous VF games).
    Play Battlefield 3? Add me on Battlelog: Saint_Chanchai
    Now playing on ALL SYSTEMS ^_^)
  • CrownicornCrownicorn Joined: Posts: 8
    Holy wow you really went all out on information! Thanks so much for answering my question and then some.
    I thought maybe it was clock positions so I tried that out and was having a really weird time. I was on the right track!

    Well, time to hit the dojo.
  • ChanchaiChanchai VF Fanatic. KOF Wannabe. Joined: Posts: 677
    No problem and keep up the training! ^_^

    Another note: While Lion's game has a lot of strong low attacks, it does not come risk-free. Lion's midgame has been upgraded and he has always had a large toolbox of half-circulars, special high attacks, mid attacks, long range and close range moves, and yes--good low attacks.

    The thing to be concerned about, and this applies more to higher level opponents, is to see if your opponent is punishing your low attacks. If your opponent punishes your low attacks, you can be in trouble if you don't make adjustments. Also, if you can establish that your opponent is punishing your low attacks, your next question you need to answer is if your opponent is baiting you into doing low attacks.

    Again, this is higher level stuff, but it becomes really important in using Lion properly and it's really easy to not concern yourself with this stuff and get baited into pretty simple traps.

    I'll use a metaphor coming from a conversation with another VF Pal....

    In local metagames, and even online, your opponents can give you a free lunch because they don't punish you for over-using things (in this case, it is especially the low attacks). These free lunches are nice, but you're going to get damn fat on these free lunches if you make the lows into a bad habit instead of just something you are doing because the matchup calls for it (your opponent is not defending it).

    Always remind yourself in VF that you should be playing on reads, NOT SET PLAYS WITHOUT CONSIDERING THE OPPONENT. You must consider what your opponent will most likely do.

    Low attack your opponent because they're falling for it or are not defending. But do not low attack opponents just because it worked on other opponents (like your local metagame). Learning to read your opponents, even on a basic and limited level, is key to Virtua Fighter!
    Play Battlefield 3? Add me on Battlelog: Saint_Chanchai
    Now playing on ALL SYSTEMS ^_^)
  • DroogyDroogy I Respect the Foot Dive Joined: Posts: 48
    Lion Escapable Infinite
    NOT MY VIDEO
    This is a Lion infinite, dunno how applicable it is but heres the vid
    XBLA:DescendantDroog
  • Ki ShimaKi Shima This tiger isn't dead.... Joined: Posts: 7,973
    Really more of a placeholder, as info on FS Lion is pretty rare, but I promise I'll add whatever info anyone finds to the original post (this) and format it well.

    Lets break down this guy, ask questions, and help each other out.

    "YOU BETTER TAKE ME SERIOUSLY!"

    your avatar goes perfectly with Lions voice :rofl:

    "NYA I WANNA SERIOUS THIGHT"
    "The telephone is virtual reality in that you can meet with someone as if you are together, at least in the auditory sense."

    Ray Kurzweil
  • ChanchaiChanchai VF Fanatic. KOF Wannabe. Joined: Posts: 677
    Figure I would repost this here. Here is a general take on the various approaches to fighting as Lion that I've written up. It is very general, it isn't specific to moves, but somehow a lot of people found it useful so I hope it will be as useful to people here too ^_^

    Source: http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335850/Re:%20Lion%20Theory%20and%20Set-ups#Post335850

    I am currently working on a Move-Specific Interpretation (it's like a very subjective Mini-Guide). I won't say what move I will be covering with this, just that I have spent a lot of my free time over the weekend testing a lot of things out for it to make sure it is more objective.

    I hope to have it out soon, but since the work week has already started, we'll see how long it takes from now but much of the material is already set.

    That said, I do want to add more to this thread so I'll at least tease at some topics I find of interested to Lion. I also hope to write more content talking about these approaches to Lion in the future.

    I have kept this post general on purpose--I intend to go more in-depth with these topics (and more) later and one at a time ^_^

    Lion's Many Approaches to Combat
    With certain changes made to Lion in VF5R and in VF5FS, his core and more straight-forward game has improved greatly over VF5 Vanilla Lion. I believe this has made Lion's game easier to learn for much of the VF population and it is easier to point to a more standard way of playing Lion.

    That said, Lion has always had interesting tools in his toolbox that catered to a variety of playstyles. I believe this is still very much true, maybe even more true as Lion can be played as straight-forward, as indirect, as passive, and as aggressive as the player wants to play, and he can be effective at all of these.

    In this post, I am merely listing some of the approaches that I myself implement in my own Lion game. How much I use or refrain from using these approaches depends on the opponent and sometimes even the opponent's character.

    Because of this versatility, Lion can be as fun or boring as you would probably want him to be, and still be effective!

    Word of Caution: There is a lot of overlap between these "Approaches."

    Aggressive/Rushdown Lion
    Lion can play the classic VF-game and with his overall power level increased and an easier time punishing low attacks compared to Vanilla, Lion's standard VF theory game is strong. Lion can also force various guessing games up-close. While Lion's fast launchers usually require a counter-hit or a mistake from the opponent, he pretty much has all the mixups covered decently: mids that can extend damage, low attacks that can combo, a quite good (if not great) throw game, a guard-break that ensures a very worthy combo, a decent set of half-circulars and full circulars to give evaders a headache, enough bounds to enable greater combo damage as well as greater carry towards the ring out zone or the wall, and an array of attacks that can hard-counter (as in beat low punch or sabaki certain kicks or punches). Lion also has an aggressive as hell side-rape game (abusing an opponent who is side-turned). Lion has all the tools to mix-up however you personally want to mix-up. All of this adds up to a character who can play incredibly well with aggressive mindgames and 50/50s.

    He can do what the aggressive rushdown player wants to do: press the opponent into questions he will answer incorrectly.

    On top of this, he can aggressively slip (see Slippery Lion) and it is no secret that Lion can be pretty mean on okizeme which only adds to rushing down with Lion.

    Footsie Lion
    Lion has so many tools to out-space opponents and encourage the opponent to make record-amounts of mistakes. He can bait everyone including the other master-baiters (sorry I couldn't resist).

    A very reactive player playing a footsie Lion is very dangerous--especially offline.

    To aid in this, much of Lion's ranges are "slightly off" and he has attacks that cover practically the full spectrum of close, mid, and even long range. A good Lion player who understands the ranges of his full arsenal is incredibly deadly and can punish a lot of range-based mistakes by the opponent.

    This style of Lion can avoid much of the difficult guessing games if he wants, to play a more movement and reflex oriented game and can even pile on the damage with a lot of Lion's current tools at the longer ranges.

    It does not matter if the opponent has great lows, special highs, or mids at almost any range, Lion can find a way to whiff punish it usually.

    (Ring) Positional Lion
    It's no secret that Lion has ALWAYS been a very good spacial character in the VF games. He has had 3d movement since the linear VF2!

    On top of an annoying footsie game and a lethal capacity for rushing opponents down, Lion has the ability to reposition much of the fight and also carry the opponent long distances towards the wall or the ring out zone. Lion also has an easier time launching people over half-walls.

    Lion has always been good with ring position, this hasn't changed ever.

    Low-Whore Lion
    This is one area where Lion players should tread carefully. Lion has arguably the best low attack arsenal in VF, but all of his low attacks carry a good amount of risk.

    That said, these low attacks have their role and how much one implements Lion's low game should depend on the opponent one is facing.

    Opponents who fail to block low because of option selects or a fear of mid attacks must beware of Lion's low-whoring abilities.

    Slippery Lion
    Lion's Evasiveness has always been record-setting annoying for opponents. While his 2_3P uppercut doesn't carry the same amount of BS as in prior VF games, it'll still break the rules on some attacks (just not as many as before). But his 2_3P is just icing on the cake--Lion has a lot of evasive attacks from his momentum-breaking 4P that slides under high attacks and can reset the flow of battle to his various low and mid attacks that can slide under many attacks including mids! He also has hard-counter attacks for everything for when Lion has a real read on the opponent--he can bust up predictable low attacks out-right, sabaki or slip through certain kick attacks, and he can even manually slip through certain predictable offenses.

    Lion has always been a slippery character, he's still a damn good slippery character--a good slippery Lion player can steal turns in so many ways.

    A note on "Poking" Lion
    VF is generally a poking game. If I tried to explain what a poking Lion is, I think I would pretty much just overlap the above approaches to playing Lion.

    An aggressive rushdown Lion is more or less poking, slipping, and forcing some hard guessing games through an opponent's comfort and discomfort zones.

    A footsie Lion is "out-poking" his opponent from various ranges and taking advantage of Lion's full arsenal having control of almost all ranges in the game.

    A low whoring Lion could even low poke his opponent, though at smaller gains without a knockdown.

    A slippery Lion is clearly poking using the more evasive attacks in Lion's arsenal.

    Because of all of this, I don't really think of "Poking" as an approach to a character in VF. Rather, I think poking is just something you're generally doing in VF because that's how the system is built. Lion just happens to have a lot of tools to make pin-point attacks and encourage opponent whiffs.

    These are approaches, they don't have to be "styles"--they are more like approaches to problems
    It is my belief that a great Lion can solve problems. In VF5R and VF5FS, Lion is given greater strength in solving problems simply and conventionally.

    That said, all these approaches should be a part of every Lion player imo (even if an approach is only a small part). Lion's complete game is such a joy in Virtua Fighter--it is incredibly rewarding to play to Lion's depths. He has a lot of options.

    You don't have to be a rushdown, footsie, low-whoring, positional, or slippery Lion player. You can be capable of utilizing all these sets of tools and choose when one of these approaches is best suited to the character matchup and more importantly when they are best suited for your opponent's game. You can make it even just a part of the round.

    These are really just a way of categorizing a set of answers into overall packages to work on at your own pace.

    We could even categorize different approaches to Lion, but these are the core approaches in my personal Lion handbook/toolbox. I've found it incredibly useful in my Lion play and also very rewarding. Some opponents just see certain moves of Lion that have hurt them the most--but they often miss that I'm tuning my play on these dimensions to eventually find some hard-answers for the questions they are posing.

    If I try to explain my current way of playing Lion, which could change on the day... I usually start playing a safer Footsie approach against my opponent to try to encourage mistakes and get a sense of what the opponent is going for. I do play mix-ups here and there, but initially I'm just trying to play it more safe and build up reads. If I see a low weakness in my opponent, I might go after it for a bit to see how long it takes for the opponent to adjust to that, or I may just stay footsie. I do mix in aggression to test the opponent early, but again, I want to understand my opponent--conscious or sub-conscious (sadly, it is often sub-conscious). As I feel my game has adapted to my opponent's, I will go on the rushdown game at some point, at least most of the time, and this is where my reads are truly tested. I am playing Lion in a slippery fashion when I am playing footsie as well as when I am aggressive--I've just found that Lion is so good at stealing turns with slippery attacks that he can create some interesting opportunities to force a real guessing game once the opponent has been stalled in this way. Most opponents are better equipped to deal with a fuzzy guard turn-steal than getting their turn-stolen by a successful attack from disadvantage. However, I cannot let the opponent catch on to this too fast or over-prepare for it, so I'm not always trying to slip him in any one way, often times the slipping is sprinkled here and there based on lighter reads and the overall safety of the slipping attack. Typically, my game does elevate in aggression over the course of the match.

    I am not saying I am great at all of this, but this is generally my current approach to playing Lion. I definitely make mistakes, I definitely have bad habits that are hard to fix, and there are situations where I repeatedly answer one-way at my own peril and there are also non-mixups that I do that should be mix-ups (like constantly going for mid instead of something else). Life is constant improvement till the end, VF is like that too :P

    The versatility of Lion is like VF itself, it is incredibly rewarding and keeps on impressing you with how much more you could be trying to do.

    Lion (and VF) is more than max-damage ^_^
    Play Battlefield 3? Add me on Battlelog: Saint_Chanchai
    Now playing on ALL SYSTEMS ^_^)
  • ParryPerson.ParryPerson. It is done. Joined: Posts: 4,011
    Great post, I'll reformat it and add it.
    I cannot find ANY Lion Ver.C combos on the internet. I'll be trying to find some and decypher some from videos and revamping that horrible first post. Sorry I never came back (Well... I did eventually :) )
    Avatar by Muffin
    #LAFGC on EFNet

    <MrWizard> ive pre banned parry from evo south
    <[Parry]> This is because I ditched helping on the smash brackets isn't it
    <MrWizard> yep
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