3rd Strike Frame Data

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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    I doubt you have any realistic time to hit confirm a jumping light attack into super, the hit stun on those is almost negligible.

    And again -proving you don't read- I can confirm it is possible to do it, the timing is just very tight.

    I can make a video if you guys want. Just list some decent no-hassle recording software (not FRAPS!) and I'll upload the footage. But you could probably do it in training, it's not terribly hard. It's not like Mak's TOD.
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  • yomipoweryomipower not a legendary game designer Joined: Posts: 1,167
    If the timing is very tight, I think that counts as not a realistic chance.
    Yomi, which is the Japanese word for the underworld. Also a brand of vitamins for children.
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    if jump jab/short can combo into full sa2 the only non-guess way to use it would be to use it as a DED.
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Louis > why would you want Chun to be able to parry and then do cr.mk but not parry then throw?

    I can't test it right now, but if you try to j.lp xx SA2, it has to be very deep, so after the parry i'm not sure your lp recovery will have end before Chun is able to do something.
    Anyway, sounds like a bad option overall (i doubt it's confirmable on hit), and Yuuki is right about the probably only useful application.
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    I think the purpose of jump lp is to mix up jump in timing but I may be wrong.
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    Louis > why would you want Chun to be able to parry and then do cr.mk but not parry then throw?

    I can't test it right now, but if you try to j.lp xx SA2, it has to be very deep, so after the parry i'm not sure your lp recovery will have end before Chun is able to do something.
    Anyway, sounds like a bad option overall (i doubt it's confirmable on hit), and Yuuki is right about the probably only useful application.

    I thought I explained it but I'll try again. Basically, if they parry a deep jLP/LK, their parry and throw will get beaten by SA2. Not sure if (because of the angle) if they can still confirm into Super because according to the frame data site jLP/LK has no frames on hit (but shows 11 on jLP for some reason?) and no frames on recovery. So no idea if Chun can parry then do crMK into SA2 or Ken can do crMK or stMP HP Target into SA3. I assume if they parry and go into a raw super with 1 frame startup like Dud's SA3 or maybe Ken's SA3 at 2 frames it will beat Alex's SA2.

    Does that make sense?

    I'm uploading a vid right now (recorded in FBA RR) showing the confirm from jLP and jLK into SA2 on Ryu while standing. You can see it counts as 6 hits. Right now uploading is at 6% so yeah...

    BTW: Is there any way to load cheats in FBA RR? And how do you get the lua model hitbox viewer going? I get an error if I try to get it going.
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Some of the jumping light attacks don't have a fixed number of active frames cause that number will depend on when you launched the move and when your jump will end. At best, you can have a max number of active frames but it doesn't make a real sense IMO and i also found out activating a jumping normal too early has a direct influence on the startup value, making the whole frame data thing not really reliable in this case. You can see their value as 'infinite' i guess, meaning 'from activation to jump recovery'.
    (hard to explain, hope it's clear enough)

    Even simpler for recovery data missing, it will directly depend on when (how deep) you hit, and so it's very variable.

    That's what i understood, but i'm not sure Alex will have enough (if any?) advantage to be able to pull out SA2. I'd bet Chun has enough time to throw you after the parry.
    Anyway, she also can simply block. All you can do as Alex is throw out SA2, just in case.

    I trust you and have no doubt about the possibility to link SA2 after a j.lp/lk. What i doubt is that it's actually visually confirmable on hit, meaning if j.lp hit then SA2, if not then, block (or whatever). Again, i'd bet of less than 10f to confirm.

    Mixing timing, why not, but keep in mind j.lp/lk are easily punishable (by throw for example) on block or on hit if not deep enough, so
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177


    Easier to do if they're standing, if they're crouching it's harder to tell if it confirmed or not visually but if you practice it enough you can get the timing to be pretty consistent.
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,704
    but for what purpose.

    i just don't understand what you're trying to do really. when I input a parry against a jumpin, i sometimes jab not long after the parry (pause briefly to see if you parry something).

    and you're going to lose to that based on how deep you need to be to connect that combo. it's not uncommon to do that either so im kind of confused as to why this is as big a discussion as it is. that's just not what jumping shorts and jabs are for. they're for throwing off timing and interrupting stuff to create other openings. its good to know though i guess.
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    It's not really a big discussion, I'm just curious if you can use this gimmick to beat parry'ers. Plus you guys said you couldn't combo off of a jump in so that charged me up.

    *Edit: Actually, if it's timed deeply you can still do stMK (and they shouldn't be able to throw) into Flash Chop even if it doesn't combo, but the jump in has to be very deep.

    I'm genuinely curious if this could be a gimmick worth exploring or not.
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,704
    the only wat you're going to know is if you use it against people who know how to play.
    no one said you couldn't. i questioned it off a jab/short because you have to be so deep it's essentially worthless.

    you can do jumping mk to back fierce combo. just need the right timing/spacing.
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    After a few tests: even after the deepest possible lp, nothing is guaranteed.
    She can block an eventual SA2 and you can't escape (lol) throw if she tries one. Btw, SA2 is possible for a 1 frame window before she becomes able to throw you.

    The gimmick itself is pretty bad and it requires damn good execution.

    Also, if she doesn't parry, looks like you will throw out SA2 on hit or block cause it's definitely not confirmable (7 frames).
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    After a few tests: even after the deepest possible lp, nothing is guaranteed.
    She can block an eventual SA2 and you can't escape (lol) throw if she tries one. Btw, SA2 is possible for a 1 frame window before she becomes able to throw you.

    Okay, now I'm confused. Are you saying that after jLP into SA2 she can or cannot still throw you and it will beat SA2? Can she still confirm crMK into SA2? Can Dudley still do raw SA3?
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Ok, it's not that bad actually but still pretty useless IMO as it's just a gamble on the next move.

    After your j.lp:
    - if you perfectly time your SA2 (1 frame window) and she's already trying to do something, you'll win. If she was just waiting, she can block it.
    - if you hold up after the parry, you can jump to escape an eventual throw but you'll be caught by a cr.lp or anything fast enough
    - you can parry anything (didn't think about this before, one good point)
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    That's what I thought. Could you test it with raw super? Like Dud's SA3 and Necro's SA1?
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    If perfectly timed, Alex can't block or parry. (vs Chun SA1)
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    If perfectly timed, Alex can't block or parry. (vs Chun SA1)

    Erm, that doesn't answer my question. So if I do jLP/LK into SA2, they parry, can Dudley's SA3 or Necro's SA1 beat it?
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Thought Necro SA3 was 0 too.
    Dud SA3 has same startup as Chun SA1 (0), so same result, and implicitly you can't activate super.
    Necro SA1 is 1, so Alex can block or parry and logically can SA2 through Magnetic Storm, thanks to his invulnerable startup. One frame window to activate (after superfreeze of necro), so completely stupid/useless IMO.
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    The gimmick itself is pretty bad and it requires damn good execution.
    .

    Just want to add:

    There's no such thing as a bad gimmick for Alex.

    And as a rule of thumb -I'm not an execution heavy player, I do scrubby CC combos in Alpha 2 and really simple HD combos in KOF13 and it would take me a very long time to get one Genei Jin combo down consistently- but if I can do it consistently then just about anyone can do it consistently.
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Honestly, i think you'd have better overall result with empty jump SA2 than this.
    Each possibility puts you in a guess situation where Chun has to make a bad choice for you to be able to hit/throw her. And if she does, you only have a ridiculously small window to do it. Not to mention that you'll NOT confirm j.lp/j.lk into SA2.
    Bad gimmick is bad.
  • yomipoweryomipower not a legendary game designer Joined: Posts: 1,167
    And as a rule of thumb -I'm not an execution heavy player, I do scrubby CC combos in Alpha 2 and really simple HD combos in KOF13 and it would take me a very long time to get one Genei Jin combo down consistently- but if I can do it consistently then just about anyone can do it consistently.

    No wonder you're always just looking for gimmicks. No wonder also why you never beat anybody who can see past stomp loops in lag.
    Yomi, which is the Japanese word for the underworld. Also a brand of vitamins for children.
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    Honestly, i think you'd have better overall result with empty jump SA2 than this.
    Each possibility puts you in a guess situation where Chun has to make a bad choice for you to be able to hit/throw her. And if she does, you only have a ridiculously small window to do it. Not to mention that you'll NOT confirm j.lp/j.lk into SA2.
    Bad gimmick is bad.

    But you just said
    After your j.lp:
    - if you perfectly time your SA2 (1 frame window) and she's already trying to do something, you'll win. If she was just waiting, she can block it.
    - if you hold up after the parry, you can jump to escape an eventual throw but you'll be caught by a cr.lp or anything fast enough
    - you can parry anything (didn't think about this before, one good point)

    I don't know too many dudes who are going to parry and block or jump out. I'm just saying it could be something worth exploring. Not saying it's gdlk.
    No wonder you're always just looking for gimmicks. No wonder also why you never beat anybody who can see past stomp loops in lag.

    And you're the dude who plays online all day and has bad opinions about everything.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    I once played blind and won.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Just... don't jump? This seems to be one of the usual noob traps; If I jump and try to attack, he'll parry me, if I try to empy jump, he'll throw me immedietly upon landing. What you should do, if you absolutely insist on jumping, is to change the timing of your jump-ins, obviously enough. Try to first get a gauge on what particular moment does your jumpin get parried and then change the timing accordingly. Remember, they can't mash parry, they'll have to time it. Jumping light attacks are surprisingly effective doing this, if not usually, as they usually have an instant-ish startup and when done late give a little bit of frame-advantage on hit for you to do something upon landing. Another option is to empty jump and then immedietly upon landing do a move that can't be thrown, but it can be risky of course. Does SGGK work on landing? I guess you could try that too.
    Its funny you say this because this is how i maintain my jump in mks effectiveness and integrity. If i feel like my parrattacks are locked in then do them extra early so that whdn they parry they actually walk forward and usualky into my forward.
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  • yomipoweryomipower not a legendary game designer Joined: Posts: 1,167
    And you're the dude who plays online all day and has bad opinions about everything.

    Sorry man, I haven't played this game online ever since the netcode proved to be lackluster. Just practice mode for me with the occasional offline hookup. "Bad opinion" is also an oxymoron as opinions are purely subjective.
    Yomi, which is the Japanese word for the underworld. Also a brand of vitamins for children.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Louis if your jab is parried you won't fall as quick so they might have more time to prepare their follow up. Especially if you land over them a bit, it's like the squares or rectangles are grinding apart like in an earthquake so it takes a second before you can actually start to fall again.

    That would give you enough time to recover as you hit the ground and you could definitely super upon landing, I'm just not sure that their tap forward grab wouldn't parry the first hit of it. Thing with this, though, is that it's maddddd scrubby. Certainly good for that moment in the match where they have all your timings down and you need to pull them out of "Picture-91.jpg" his fire mode or whatever.

    It could help mess with their heads a bit but I wouldn't expect to be some magic 200% perfect routine madness like when agumongreymon plays ggpo.
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  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Just been looking at the subtle differences between normals when you watch the hitboxes in action. As I mentioned in the New Players thread, there are some surprising differences between cl.mk and cl.mp with Gouki.

    So after exploring that I've been looking at the differences between the shared shoto normals across the big three. Something I did not know until now is that both Ryu and Gouki can cancel far mk into itself during the last few frames. I've noticed something that looked too quick in the animation of back to back far mk with Gouki but never thought more about it. In the cancel info panel for Ryu's version of far mk there is that pesky little purple box that 'seems' to mean a move that can be chained into another normal like a lot of Ibuki's normals or Ryu's Hp>Hk Target Combo.

    Here are my questions to ESN. Why are there two purple boxes under the two green self cancel boxes at frame 23 and 24? Mistake or mystery or is there a strange little know TC for Ryu's far mk!? lol
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Hey guys, anybody here know if the frame data on esn's site for makoto's sa1 is correct? It says 0 zero start up frames, which would make it impossible to block if you weren't already blocking before the super flash. Or is that 1 frame super with 2 more active hit frames following? Does that mean it'll hit on the frame I pressed the button or the next one?

    I got no qualms with the info provided being wrong, it's free after all, I just want to know it's really 0.
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  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    Dander wrote: »
    Hey guys, anybody here know if the frame data on esn's site for makoto's sa1 is correct? It says 0 zero start up frames, which would make it impossible to block if you weren't already blocking before the super flash. Or is that 1 frame super with 2 more active hit frames following? Does that mean it'll hit on the frame I pressed the button or the next one?

    I got no qualms with the info provided being wrong, it's free after all, I just want to know it's really 0.

    "A 0 frame move hits the really next frame after the move is committed or right after the superfreeze for Super Arts. Therefore, you must strictly be on guard on this really next frame to block it."

    From the bottom of each characters page. All 0 frame supers that hit can be blocked, even if you're walking forward when it's activated, so long as you go back to blocking before the end of the freeze. Prejump frames come into play with grab supers, which is why Demon is inescapable at a neutral position when very close.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Here are my questions to ESN. Why are there two purple boxes under the two green self cancel boxes at frame 23 and 24? Mistake or mystery or is there a strange little know TC for Ryu's far mk!? lol
    Far MK can be cancelled to (far) HK, allowing Ryu to do hk 2 frames faster than if he had to wait for far mk full recovery. Probably the most useless trick in the game!
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    edited May 2013
    telesniper wrote: »
    Dander wrote: »
    Hey guys, anybody here know if the frame data on esn's site for makoto's sa1 is correct? It says 0 zero start up frames, which would make it impossible to block if you weren't already blocking before the super flash. Or is that 1 frame super with 2 more active hit frames following? Does that mean it'll hit on the frame I pressed the button or the next one?

    I got no qualms with the info provided being wrong, it's free after all, I just want to know it's really 0.

    "A 0 frame move hits the really next frame after the move is committed or right after the superfreeze for Super Arts. Therefore, you must strictly be on guard on this really next frame to block it."

    From the bottom of each characters page. All 0 frame supers that hit can be blocked, even if you're walking forward when it's activated, so long as you go back to blocking before the end of the freeze. Prejump frames come into play with grab supers, which is why Demon is inescapable at a neutral position when very close.

    So...that means....yes?
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    ESN wrote: »
    Here are my questions to ESN. Why are there two purple boxes under the two green self cancel boxes at frame 23 and 24? Mistake or mystery or is there a strange little know TC for Ryu's far mk!? lol
    Far MK can be cancelled to (far) HK, allowing Ryu to do hk 2 frames faster than if he had to wait for far mk full recovery. Probably the most useless trick in the game!

    Now it beats everything not a jab
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    edited May 2013
    telesniper wrote: »
    From the bottom of each characters page. All 0 frame supers that hit can be blocked, even if you're walking forward when it's activated, so long as you go back to blocking before the end of the freeze. Prejump frames come into play with grab supers, which is why Demon is inescapable at a neutral position when very close.
    Not exactly for throw supers, as jump status is instant (just like guard as you said above or parry).
    Seems more like the game only allows the back input after a super so:
    - zero frame regular supers are blockable after superfreeze, but not parryable (forward/back input won't be registered) and you're also not able to activate anything with any P/K button)
    - zero frames throw supers cannot be escaped after superfreeze cause the up direction won't be registered (and still not able to do things above)
    - one frame regular supers are obviously blockable and now you're able to also do whatever you want, including parry after superfreeze
    - one frame throw supers, well, just hold up to escape or activate anything you want on second frame after superfreeze (either by releasing or pushing a button, thanks to negative edge) but you're anyway probably screwed if your move doesn't have throw invulnerability...
    Post edited by ESN on
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    ESN wrote: »
    telesniper wrote: »
    From the bottom of each characters page. All 0 frame supers that hit can be blocked, even if you're walking forward when it's activated, so long as you go back to blocking before the end of the freeze. Prejump frames come into play with grab supers, which is why Demon is inescapable at a neutral position when very close.
    Not exactly for throw supers, as jump status is instant (just like guard as you said above or parry).
    Seems more like the game only allows the back input after a super so:
    - zero frame regular supers are blockable after superfreeze, but not parryable (forward/back input won't be registered) and you're also not able to activate anything with any P/K button), - zero frames throw supers cannot be escaped after superfreeze cause the up direction won't be registered (and still not able to do things above)
    - one frame regular supers are obviously blockable and now you're able to also do whatever you want, including parry after superfreeze
    - one frame throw supers, well, just hold up to escape or activate anything you want on first frame after superfreeze (thanks to negative edge) or on second one (though you're probably screwed if your move doesn't have throw invulnerability)...

    Then it truly is 0 frames? That just sounds too good to be true, tbh.
    I know how the game works, I'm just wondering if this is a 0 frame super or if maybe that was an oversight.
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Dander wrote: »
    Now it beats everything not a jab
    How does this cancel property allow Ryu far HK to become that strong?

  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    so could that cancel be used as a frametrap or somethin? or is hk still to slow ..
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  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    edited May 2013
    ESN wrote: »
    telesniper wrote: »
    From the bottom of each characters page. All 0 frame supers that hit can be blocked, even if you're walking forward when it's activated, so long as you go back to blocking before the end of the freeze. Prejump frames come into play with grab supers, which is why Demon is inescapable at a neutral position when very close.
    - one frame throw supers, well, just hold up to escape or activate anything you want on first frame after superfreeze (thanks to negative edge) or on second one (though you're probably screwed if your move doesn't have throw invulnerability)...
    Wow, I've never considered negative edge for punishing supers, that would make certain ones much easier... hmmm = )

    On another note, what's with parrying supers that aren't zero frame, but you also hold back during the freeze? This ALWAYS blows my mind when I watch someone get hit by a "random" super. They seem to go for the parry as you see them nudge forward, however, they rarely block afterwards... In my experience, this will parry if properly timed, yet block if not. Even watching these situations in slowmo, I can't see them hit a button. I'd like to think it's just that they weren't expecting the super, so they pressed a button, but I don't see any start up frames for the moves.

    The most memorable "recent" one to me is the Kuroda-Elena v Nuki-Chun match quite a while ago.. Kuroda did a random super, you can see Nuki edge forward, but is hit anyway... I'll see if I can find the video..


  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    edited May 2013
    telesniper wrote: »
    Wow, I've never considered negative edge for punishing supers, that would make certain ones much easier... hmmm = )

    On another note, what's with parrying supers that aren't zero frame, but you also hold back during the freeze? This ALWAYS blows my mind when I watch someone get hit by a "random" super. They seem to go for the parry as you see them nudge forward, however, they rarely block afterwards... In my experience, this will parry if properly timed, yet block if not. Even watching these situations in slowmo, I can't see them hit a button. I'd like to think it's just that they weren't expecting the super, so they pressed a button, but I don't see any start up frames for the moves.

    The most memorable "recent" one to me is the Kuroda-Elena v Nuki-Chun match quite a while ago.. Kuroda did a random super, you can see Nuki edge forward, but is hit anyway... I'll see if I can find the video..
    I'm not sure to understand. You can hold whatever you want during superfreeze, you'll still be able to parry after it for any 1+ super arts. Keep in mind that for SA with 1 frame startup, you must input forward/down on the exact second frame after superfreeze meaning if you fail, you'll be hit by super. So if you're hit by it, it's either you have missed your parry or you started something else before (or you forgot to block!)...
    Anyway, except for death situation, there is no point trying this. You'd better try to red parry second hit if you really need it.

    edit: i rewrote "negative edge activation" part in my previous post as i think it was confusing. There is only the second frame to activate super but you have 2 chances of catching it with negative edge.
  • GaijinblazeGaijinblaze fingerlicans Joined: Posts: 2,524 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    yeah, even if you hold back, the game will still give you the parry if it's successful, and block if it would have failed. i don't know if there is some window within which you get a successful parry only if you hadn't pressed back, but i get the feeling like that might exist. the reason i still don't hold back is because parrying can only be done from neutral, so if i successfully parry one hit, then hold back, it will be more difficult to time the next parry without a mistake. this is especially true for supers that have their hits close together. also, it's really not that easy in practice to react to your own parry and choose your next option accordingly. the only time i would really do this is against 1 hit supers or something with hits that are more spaced apart, like q's sa1 or something.

    btw, on that earlier topic, aren't shin akuma's supers unblockable unless you held back before the freeze?
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    edited May 2013
    ...i can't delete post with new forum?

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