3rd Strike Frame Data

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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,213
    Isotopez

    What do the colors on there mean? Are the green push, red hit and blue hurt? I couldn't guess for the white ones.

    It looks there like Ryu is getting hit on the ground which is strange for this scenario because you said you used EX uppercut and all situations where it was EX upper vs Shippu usually end up with the EX upper getting hit out of the ground.
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  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    You're right about the red, green, and blue boxes. White is the throwable hitbox.

    It's definitely ex srk because all his other srks have hurtboxes. I'm pretty sure he's grounded for the first few frames. I don't know what frame he's airborne on, but I remember hitting him out of the air when I was messing around with the move timings.
  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    on ESN's site what would be an example of dash back (recovery cancelled)?
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    ?
    In MISC menu, you can click on the little blue/green/red icon to watch it in action.

    'Full animation' means i did nothing and the end of animation is triggered by a parameter (in game core) going back to neutral value.
    'Recovery cancelled', as soon i inputted the dash, i held up direction to cancel it.

    IIRC, since then, Tebbo (i think?) has shown attacks may be able to cancel dashes sooner than jump.
  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    wow thats pretty cool..so jumps cancel dash recovery.thanks for such a speedy answer i appreciate it
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Jumps or any attack/special/sa i think. Hence Makoto being able to karakusa after a hella short dash forward.
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Is this a dynamic of the system that anyone on here consciously uses? If so, please explain how with some examples. Thanks!
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,879 mod
    Never knew things worked that way but I had been using something like this before. After a forward throw with Gouki against Yun, if you dash at him while he quickrises he gets 123 for free, but dash demon beats it. I just figured demon breaks lots of rules anyway so *shrug*
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • ChadChad Joined: Posts: 1,290
    I think dashes also cancel dash recovery. If you watch good Oros you will see that it looks like they're "chaining" the dashes.
  • GaijinblazeGaijinblaze fingerlicans Joined: Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Chad wrote: »
    I think dashes also cancel dash recovery. If you watch good Oros you will see that it looks like they're "chaining" the dashes.

    my understanding of it has always been the exact opposite. ie. that you can cancel dash "recovery" with anything (jump, block, attack, etc) except another dash. i based this off the fact that makoto has to wait a noticeable amount of time between two consecutive dashes and esn's chart shows that she has the longest "recovery" frames, so i put two and two together and ended up with this theory. could be wrong but this is how i've always interpreted whatever dash "recovery" is.
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  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    @ESN @telesniper

    After parrying ibukis toward mk, why can yun punish it with lp lk mp TC only when she couch guards (has joystick in down back). if she stand guards, the TC will not punish her toward mk on parry.

    I am aware you can select the recovery state of some special moves but this move is a normal move.

    If you guys don't know why this occurs that's ok, just curious. Thanks
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  • JAK..JAK.. Joined: Posts: 544
    edited February 2014
    Yuuki- Very interesting...
    Maybe the game treats towards forward more like a jump-in attack? I seem to recall that you can choose your recovery state on your airborne attacks.

    Semi related can ESN, tele, etc also look into ibuki twd's rh frame data. It is listed as -4 on block but testing in OE it seems to be completely safe as ibuki can block both mak's sa1 and ken's sa3.

    Edit. Further testing on towards RH reversal gigas can grab it (holding up after executing move)
    Yangs sa2 hits only if Ibuki tries to crouch block it similar to Yuuki's example.

    My guess is that when executing an "airborne" attack you have one less landing and/or recovery frame if you chose to stand block instead of cr block.

  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    question...is there a way to determine hit advantage of special moves? i cant seem to find it on ESN's site :(
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  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    edited February 2014
    http://gr.qee.jp/01_3rd/index.html
    you can find that information at game restaurant.
    to find the frame data for a character, select the character picture on the left table. once youve gone to the character page, click 一覧 on the far right of the header table.


    under H&G硬直 you'll see the advantage for moves that are guarded (G) moves that hit the opponent standing (立) and moves that hit the opponent crouching (屈)
    the D in that information stands for "down" as in the move knockdown the opponent.

    hope you find this helpful. @djdjw

    let me know if you have any further questions on how to read the frame data or any part of the website.
    かかってきな。
  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    tyvm sir :) very helpful
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,213
    demon 0 frame!

    bus!
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  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 356
    edited March 2014
    This was mainly a response to Hax, but this portion fits better here...
    How is there some red from a hit on Chun 1st screenshot?

    Probably a half frame/missing due to youtube framerates, & she's already being fireballed by SA1. Or press esc to exit fullscreen. 2nd screenshot all the damage is missing too, no red.

    I assume you're referring to the red damage on Chun's life? Damage actually occurs one frame before your reel animation, meaning you need to, in effect, be blocking/parrying at least 2 frames before the move connects visually (5/6 realtime with the reported input lag). Honestly always wondered if that actually has something to do with the varied frame data reported, some being early by a frame and such... maybe they counted until the red? Or factored in how many frames you'd have to block it?

    @ESN How did you measure start up again? Before the red? When the hit color showed? Would this mean that potentially start up could be accurately measured as 1 frame before the red, as on that next/current frame, it's a "done deal"? Or another frame earlier?
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    edited March 2014
    The startup definition i used is:
    the number of frames from when the game registered an attack until the frame when opponent is considered as being hit, without including that last frame. On screen, it will corresponds to "red bar - 1", and "sparks/char hit - 2".

    Full example of how i processed for Gouki cl.LP, first number is current internal frame number of emulator, second is P1 attack variable, third is P2 attack variable (which also show if he is being hit):
    - 79471 : 0 / 0 --> button pressed, startup = 0
    - 79472 : 4 / 0 --> P1 attack registered, startup = 1
    - 79473 : 4 / 0 --> startup = 2
    - 79474 : 4 / 0 --> startup = 3
    - 79475 : 4 / 1 --> P2 registered as hit, red bar, hitstun = 1
    - 79476 : 4 / 1 --> sparks/char bit, hitstun = 2
    - 79477 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 3
    - 79478 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 4
    - 79479 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 5
    - 79480 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 6
    - 79481 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 7
    - 79482 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 8
    - 79483 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 9
    - 79484 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 10
    - 79485 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 11
    - 79486 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 12
    - 79487 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 13
    - 79488 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 14
    - 79489 : 0 / 1 --> hit advantage = 1
    - 79490 : 0 / 1 --> hit advantage = 2
    - 79491 : 0 / 1 --> hit advantage = 3, P2 can do something (jump for example) so it'll execute on last frame
    - 79492 : 0 / 0 --> P2 starts to jump

    So we got:
    - startup = 3
    - hit advantage = 3

    On a side note, iirc that's not the same on OE. For this same example, sparks would appear only at 79477 while "char hit" would still happen at 79476.
    Will check this again tonight if i can.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 356
    Awesome, thanks for clarifying that again! That's interesting about the difference on OE too!

    Speaking of... I wonder about certain OE chains, maybe it's just a "game speed" issue, but for instance I can Jab Jab Short with Mak so much more consistently on FBA, GGPO, Shmup and Groovy than I can on OE. On Emu I can just double tap and be pretty sure it will combo, but on OE it feels like the pushback of Jab either happens too fast, or the chain window is just smaller, or perhaps happens 1 frame too late (making it a 50% "chance" to not combo) for that particular move.. Or it's an issue with self cancelling moves on OE? Haven't any issues with Jab - Short, just the Jab Jab.

    Probably just me messing the timing up, but I was curious if the self cancel window is the same on r608 as it is on 512. Thanks for that answer again.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    My bad, i was a little wrong about the OE differences.
    After checking with 120fps videos, i got (tested with Chun far HK):
    - no differences found between chars animations (sprites change at the exact same frame)
    - sparks/char hit happen at the same frame on both version
    - OE red bar happen 1 frame later than fba-rr, same frame as sparks
    - P1 super bar is filled 1 frames later on OE, same frame as red bar

    That alone makes confirm harder on OE for those watching for super bar or health. (not my case)

  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    edited April 2014
    Needing help figuring out how towards+jab combos into st mp with dudley. I tried reading the frame data from ESN's site but i still dont quite understand if anyone can help please check it out for me. frame data pertaining to the towards jab being only +1 on hit and st mp having the 4 frame startup how does it combo? i was just in training mode then i noticed that with the correct timing the st mp would combo. I was just messing around with towards jab since its never used but it has super cancellable properties and other boxes colored in the frame data list. came up with this combo and was just curious thanks in advance :)
    Post edited by djdjw on
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  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    0_0 totally missed that..sorry guys :( thanks iso
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,213
    dekuscrub everybody! :p
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  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    edited April 2014
    ok so besides ->+jab , mp target combo, do any other of dudleys target combos allow the frames of st mp to cancel/link into ducking super? i have tried but no success :(
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  • ViacheViache Joined: Posts: 781
    According to the frame data, Oro's close standing jab is +5 on hit, and his close standing forward is 4f startup. That should be a 1f link, right? I've never gotten that link to work. Is this an error in the frame data, or am I doing/reading it wrong?

    I put the training dummy on "jump" and "parrying" in 3SO, and I noticed that if I mash jabs to get the dummy at the right height, I can time a cs.MP and it they just get hit by it, sort of like a Darkstalkers unblock. Are there unparry frames on landing, or is this just a training mode glitch?
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,213
    Viache wrote: »
    According to the frame data, Oro's close standing jab is +5 on hit, and his close standing forward is 4f startup. That should be a 1f link, right? I've never gotten that link to work. Is this an error in the frame data, or am I doing/reading it wrong?

    I put the training dummy on "jump" and "parrying" in 3SO, and I noticed that if I mash jabs to get the dummy at the right height, I can time a cs.MP and it they just get hit by it, sort of like a Darkstalkers unblock. Are there unparry frames on landing, or is this just a training mode glitch?

    Oro's close forward might have two key frames for hitboxes, one up real close and the second one out more towards his knee which makes that link impossible. I don't think his close jab has the same 5+ property so that's probably out of the question too.
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,636
    edited May 2014
    since you're waiting the full time till the jab is done youll be as far away as the pushback sends you i imagine (for that move).
    so isnt it possible his mk just doesn't reach?

    i mean think about it. that would be the kind of confirm everyone who plays oro would use all the time. have like a bajillion frames to see the jab hit and then react and if it doesn't hit, you're still at advantage anyway.

    thats like some sf4 shit. punch/kick repeatedly until something hits then just keep pressing buttons for more damage.
    Play more.
  • ViacheViache Joined: Posts: 781
    edited May 2014
    Dander wrote: »
    Oro's close forward might have two key frames for hitboxes, one up real close and the second one out more towards his knee which makes that link impossible. I don't think his close jab has the same 5+ property so that's probably out of the question too.

    I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean that it's just hitting a frame later or something?
    Tebbo wrote: »
    since you're waiting the full time till the jab is done youll be as far away as the pushback sends you i imagine (for that move).
    so isnt it possible his mk just doesn't reach?

    Close jab pushes him out far enough out that he can't get another cs.jab without walking back in, but cs.MK activates really far away for a "close" move. It's definitely in range, it just won't link for some reason. If Dander is telling me that I'm just getting pushed out far enough that the MK is hitting a frame or two later, that makes sense, but it seems kind of weird.
    Tebbo wrote: »
    i mean think about it. that would be the kind of confirm everyone who plays oro would use all the time. have like a bajillion frames to see the jab hit and then react and if it doesn't hit, you're still at advantage anyway.

    Yeah that's why I want to do it!

    Oh well. Any idea about the parry thing?
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,213
    edited May 2014
    I was saying that Oro's jab has some push back to it, like Tebbo referenced above, and that close forward might have two key frames to it as it is with many normals in 3s. The first active frame's hitbox is smaller in accordance with the placement of his knee at that keyframe and then grows larger, gradually, over the next subsequent frames as he lifts his thigh parallel to the ground and has his knee meet the gut. I don't know that this is truly the case but this is how hitboxes work in 3s and thought it might help you in your quest.

    So maybe if you could get the close jab to hit with the very last frame in some weird Sean roll combo maybe you could test this out. If you need to pop in relatively quickly you could try super jumping into the situation.
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  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,879 mod
    http://ensabahnur.free.fr/BastonNew/hitboxesDisplay.php?sMode=f&iChar=9&sMoveType=fd_normals&sAction=w&iMove=16

    hitbox seems pretty consistent throughout (only seems to have 3 active frames)... maybe try it with a programmable pad?? 1 frame links to another normal are tough in 3s
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,213
    edited May 2014
    pherai wrote: »
    http://ensabahnur.free.fr/BastonNew/hitboxesDisplay.php?sMode=f&iChar=9&sMoveType=fd_normals&sAction=w&iMove=16

    hitbox seems pretty consistent throughout (only seems to have 3 active frames)... maybe try it with a programmable pad?? 1 frame links to another normal are tough in 3s

    Good thing I said it just might be.

    It's strange, though, because I'm certain Chun's back fierce works the way I mentioned above but the frame data is showing me something else...

    http://ensabahnur.free.fr/BastonNew/hitboxesDisplay.php?sMode=f&iChar=16&sMoveType=fd_normals&sAction=w&iMove=29

    I think it was JAK that linked the youtube video showing the back fierce working that way in play. Then again, it may have been one of the europeans.

    I'll look around and get back to you.



    EDIT:

    WAIT a seond, I just checked.the frame data. You are reading that shit way wrong bro. It's active for 1 frame on frame 3 and recovers for the 5 frame advantage you gained on hit. You have to do a 4 frame attack in 0 frames bro!

    What I'm saying is that you get +5 but that's on hit and you still have to recover -5.

    The atttack is 8 frames with the exclusion of the neutral frame.

    Oro lifts his arm for 2 frames,
    hits on 3,
    and uses the 5 frames to bring his arm back down.

    So he sets up a fifty fifty parry play but cannot combo into anything else due to a lack of frames. At least it's a neutral advantage. Perfect for baiting action out of turtles or perfect for tick grabbing.
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  • ViacheViache Joined: Posts: 781
    edited May 2014
    pherai wrote: »
    hitbox seems pretty consistent throughout (only seems to have 3 active frames)... maybe try it with a programmable pad?? 1 frame links to another normal are tough in 3s

    I don't have one, unfortunately. I've tried it a lot of times though. I'm usually pretty solid on 1f links, which is why this one seems weird.
    Dander wrote: »
    WAIT a seond, I just checked.the frame data. You are reading that shit way wrong bro. It's active for 1 frame on frame 3 and recovers for the 5 frame advantage you gained on hit. You have to do a 4 frame attack in 0 frames bro!

    Wait, what? Really? I've never seen frame data written that way before.

    Just looked at Ken's frame data, back+mk has 10 recovery frames, with 3 frames of advantage on crouching hit -- if I read it the way you suggest, doesn't that make it -7 on hit? That doesn't seem right. . . how could he link it to super?
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,213
    Viache wrote: »
    pherai wrote: »
    hitbox seems pretty consistent throughout (only seems to have 3 active frames)... maybe try it with a programmable pad?? 1 frame links to another normal are tough in 3s

    I don't have one, unfortunately. I've tried it a lot of times though. I'm usually pretty solid on 1f links, which is why this one seems weird.
    Dander wrote: »
    WAIT a seond, I just checked.the frame data. You are reading that shit way wrong bro. It's active for 1 frame on frame 3 and recovers for the 5 frame advantage you gained on hit. You have to do a 4 frame attack in 0 frames bro!

    Wait, what? Really? I've never seen frame data written that way before.

    Just looked at Ken's frame data, back+mk has 10 recovery frames, with 3 frames of advantage on crouching hit -- if I read it the way you suggest, doesn't that make it -7 on hit? That doesn't seem right. . . how could he link it to super?

    Lemme check it out.

    hmm you're right. That doesn't seem right either. The back forward frame data would be showing that the 3 frames of advantage are after the 32 frames that make up the attack?

    Alright you win, I'm as stumped as you are. Lemme check out the game restaurant link.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,213
    edited May 2014
    I can tell you right now that close jab does not offer up 10 frames of hit stun. That sounds fucking crazy.

    @ESN is your website currently undergoing changes?


    Edit:
    It's cause back forward hits twice. I'll still have to get back to you.
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  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    You are definitely at a +5 frame advantage on hit, but it doesn't combo into close mk. Maybe pressing the mk button uses up one of your 5 frames of advantage (maybe someone can verify that) since a move can't come out on the same frame you press a button (ignoring the inherent lag of the game), and you can't press mk before you recover from the jab.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,636
    the + is always after the attack is 100% complete whatever blockstun/hitstun the opponent still has remaining before they can act again. it is 10 frames of hit/block stun. just oro is busy recovering for half of it.

    and its not because back+mk hits twice or anything. just look at the viewer. turn on cancel, and have it set to view as hitting opponent.

    for everything you can do that. ESN doesnt have crouching in there afaik but whiff, hit, block, etc.
    turn on the cancel window.
    Play more.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,213
    Tebbo wrote: »
    the + is always after the attack is 100% complete whatever blockstun/hitstun the opponent still has remaining before they can act again. it is 10 frames of hit/block stun. just oro is busy recovering for half of it.

    and its not because back+mk hits twice or anything. just look at the viewer. turn on cancel, and have it set to view as hitting opponent.

    for everything you can do that. ESN doesnt have crouching in there afaik but whiff, hit, block, etc.
    turn on the cancel window.
    Tebbo, would you do us the favor of explaining the back + mk frame data to us?

    I may be over-thinking this particular format. So, we don't have to do our own calculations? The hit advantage shown there ISN'T to be determined by us the reader? It's his math?
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  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    edited May 2014
    You don't have to do any math on esn's site.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,636
    the math is already done since it's really easy to do.

    startup = time before hitbox generation and after move start.
    active = how many frames any kind of hitbox exists for, whether it be just one which doesn't move or multiple or whatever, as long as the move is 'hitting' its active.
    recovery = time after active but before another action can be taken by the actor (character).
    advantage = time difference between the recovery of the actor and the opponent.
    Play more.
  • ViacheViache Joined: Posts: 781
    isotopez wrote: »
    You are definitely at a +5 frame advantage on hit, but it doesn't combo into close mk. Maybe pressing the mk button uses up one of your 5 frames of advantage (maybe someone can verify that) since a move can't come out on the same frame you press a button (ignoring the inherent lag of the game), and you can't press mk before you recover from the jab.

    In every other game I've looked at, if you're given startup frames, a +1 difference indicates a 1f links, or if you're given iframes, a +0 difference indicates a 1f link.

    I know the SF4 frame data gives you iframes (i.e., they include the first active frame in the "startup" frames). If you take a look at the SF4 frame data for Ryu, you'll see that c.MP is +5 on hit, and c.HK is 5f startup. In that game, c.MP, c.HK is a 1f link.

    The idea that pushing a button uses up a frame in 3S is making sense to me though. ESN says that ken back+MK is +2 on hit, +3 on crouchers, and that SA3 is 1f startup. Back+MK, SA3 only works on crouchers, right?
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    edited June 2014
    For ESN's website you have to add +1 to the start up data for supers.(+2 if you want to know which frame it's active.).

    For normals and specials it's just +1 if you want to add the active frame.

    @esn whenever you get a chance you should correct the supers since clearly a lot of people that are non-japanese speakers use your site.
    Post edited by yuuki on
    かかってきな。
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    You don't need to add 1 to gigas, ex aegis, or (maybe) ibuki sa2 right?
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    @isotopez‌ game restaurant has gigas, ex aegis, and ibuki sa2 listed as 1 / 0 / 1

    Game restaurant follows the same denotation ESN site is suppose to use (start up frame doesn't include the active frame)
    かかってきな。
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