3rd Strike Frame Data

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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Off the top of my head from what I remember, you have Dudley's jump lk,mk,rh a frame slower than game restraunt, and then have his dartshot the same # of frames so it's not consistent on the new version of your site.
    You're right, gonna have a quick look to all startup values, others data seems ok.
    Thx!
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Ok, found something weird for jump moves.
    Doing a move on the earliest frame possible will add 1 or 2 startup frames, depending if it's vertical or diagonal jump.
    If you do the move on the 2nd earliest frame, you'll have respectively 0 and 1 added startup frames for vert and diag and 0 on 3rd+ frames for both.
    For example with Dud's j.lk:
    - move done on earliest frame of the jump: startup will be 4 for vert jump and 5 for diagonal jump
    - move done on 2nd earliest frame of the jump: startup will be 3 for vert jump and 4 for diagonal jump
    - move done on 3rd (or >) frame of jump: startup will be 3 for vert jump and 3 for diagonal jump
    Also true for j.xP.
    Happens for all chars (but not by the same amount of frames) except Alex.

    I can't remember exactly how i've collected j.x moves, but i probably tried to do moves on first frames of jump, so i have to do those again i guess...
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    So you can't do/start an action til the 3rd airborne frame but you can buffer inputs?

    Interesting!

    I love the recurrence of 3 theme! OMG
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Not sure to understand what you mean, but you can input something as soon as you're airborne, just the move will actually hit at the same frame as if you've inputting at the 2nd or 3rd airborne frame (depending on char and move).
    Input buffering (normals) doesn't work as far as i can tell.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Not sure to understand what you mean, but you can input something as soon as you're airborne, just the move will actually hit at the same frame as if you've inputting at the 2nd or 3rd airborne frame (depending on char and move).
    Input buffering (normals) doesn't work as far as i can tell.

    Oh it buffers for sure. I don't know the specifics about it but I was only ever able to learn how to do short short short super by realizing that the shorts were buffered, allowing me more time to input my super motions.

    I believe we both just said the same thing but through different cognitive dialects, OMG. ESN, I love you. No homo

    I should get some sleep.
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  • SF3LPSF3LP Nica K.O Joined: Posts: 3,496
    Twelve's data on Air Axe (jab) and (strong) are the same on the site

    but Strong starts up in 11 frames according to the hitbox data
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Hit/Blk data for Mp were Lp ones. Fixed it.
    Thx nica!
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    ESN, you said once that for the first 2 or 3 frames of Gouki's unthrowable overhead he is vulnerable to throws. Could you give me the exact number of frames please? Also what are the minimum/maximum amount of frames that are added to demon by the f+mp kara?
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,711
    ESN, you said once that for the first 2 or 3 frames of Gouki's unthrowable overhead he is vulnerable to throws. Could you give me the exact number of frames please? Also what are the minimum/maximum amount of frames that are added to demon by the f+mp kara?

    http://ensabahnur.free.fr/BastonNew/hitboxesDisplay.php?sMode=f&iChar=14&sMoveType=fd_normals&sAction=w&iMove=27

    there you go.
    Play more.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    You can see this directly on my site by checking, on the frame view, when does the green (throwable) hitbox disappear.
    1~3 are throwable, 4~29 are not, 9 more throwable frames.
    Demon can cancel any normal at any frame, so is f.mp.
    Except you don't want to cancel it after it hits :d
    edit: Lightning Tebbo!
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Wanted to get used to hit confirming off cr.mk into lp srk with Ken and was wondering if it was reasonable for cl.mp (4 frames isn't much) then saw this mystery. What are the two purple question mark boxes in frame 7 and 8 of cl.mp in the cancel properties window? Excuse me if you've already answered this.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    In this case, it allows MP to be cancelled by another normal (HP here) --> allows Ken's target combos.
    Though this definition is not true for all moves/char, but i never found a universal one...
    Same goes for brown '??', related to special cancelled by another special, but can't clearly define it...
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Oh of course. Thanks man.
    What are some examples of specials canceled into specials?
  • NateMareNateMare 3rd Strike 4 ever Joined: Posts: 57
    In this case, it allows MP to be cancelled by another normal (HP here) --> allows Ken's target combos.
    Though this definition is not true for all moves/char, but i never found a universal one...
    Same goes for brown '??', related to special cancelled by another special, but can't clearly define it...
    I just saw the post about the ibuki far fierce and saw it had the ??....if you are referring to the hitbox that appears on her elbow briefly, it can be cancelled two different ways. Into special/super and into itself as a target combo. Press fierce again as her elbow is out and even on wiff she will throw out a backhand from the elbow, which makes it different than the other target combos in this game that I know of...Hope that helps
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    You mean you can cancel to special/super even after frame 25?
    The backhand 'target' is possible at frame 26+.
    Though you may be right about the unique "cancellable even on whiff" properties, which seems to also be true for other brown cancellable moves.
    This would in fact mean brown cancellable frames doesn't need the move to actually hit to be able to cancel to something else (or at least to self or something related).
    Good find!
    Gonna test by adding this property on 14/15 of Ibuki far HP, she should be able to super cancel on whiff if you're right!

    nomorefunland > Yang's slash, Gouki Hyakki xxx, Elena spinning crap.
    And then Ibuki far HP :d
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,711
    that's how the far mk moves work ESN. you can cancel those frames without hitting, and not just into the same move. like you can cancel into super.
    so yeah that may be what it is.
    Play more.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Well, if i understand correctly, the whiff thing only works with brown cancel propertie, not with purple one, so it should be an only Ibuki feature (for normals).
    if not, then you should be able to do a whiffed target combo with Ken or Urien for example. You can't, right? (end of work day, overthinking, i'm not even sure of this :d)
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,711
    oh right, i forgot what color you had designated for what. my bad.
    Play more.
  • yomipoweryomipower not a legendary game designer Joined: Posts: 1,167
    Yo ESN,
    Ever going to add 'on hit' framedata for special moves?
    Yomi, which is the Japanese word for the underworld. Also a brand of vitamins for children.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    They already are there (specials or not) but without images, just data. Boring and long process, maybe later...
    Click on the H/B/C little boxes on the left of 'Cancel'.

    edit: if someone wants to gather all images, i'll be glad to show him how to do ^^
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,711
    ESN is there any way to definitively show there is a 'priority' system at work with regards to normals?
    supers i know have priority.

    but do we have absolute proof that if two hitboxes intersect opposing hurtboxes on the same frame that the stronger normal will actually beat the weaker, not trade?
    Play more.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    I can record some of those situations, no problem. Still, i think some specific cases (positionning, limbs, etc) probably override those priority rules or at least make them more complex to identify than the usual L < M < H.
    I did this (for another purpose), which ends with HK trade, but also involves limbs being hit for both.

    If you have any precise situation in mind, you're welcome!
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,711
    just something basic i guess like jab vs far strong. ryu v ryu.

    if they have active hitboxes on the same frame intersecting each other's hurtboxes, does strong win or do they trade. so you'd be doing strong and then jab after strong i guess. not sure the exact timing.

    yeah i imagine the rules aren't so concrete. which is why i'm curious i guess. i always hear about this priority engine but i've never seen any actual irrefutable proof.
    Play more.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    just something basic i guess like jab vs far strong. ryu v ryu.

    if they have active hitboxes on the same frame intersecting each other's hurtboxes, does strong win or do they trade. so you'd be doing strong and then jab after strong i guess. not sure the exact timing.

    yeah i imagine the rules aren't so concrete. which is why i'm curious i guess. i always hear about this priority engine but i've never seen any actual irrefutable proof.

    I think you can use the health bar at ko levels to determine that. Like, generally the attack entering wins.

    I remember having a conversation about priority and whether or not it's quantified in the game. I took what we talked about then and just looked for any kind of correlation anywhere and found that the health bars when near their end and after a trade give mixed results. I have to assume it takes just as long for the game to register hit or trade as it would to determine who gets hit or if there is a trade. Keeping that in mind I came to the conclusion that it works like a sword fight. The swinging weapon has more momentum and therefore can cause more recoil and allow you to continue your pursuit. I'm not going to pretend to be some kind of fencing master but it doesn't take a genius to figure out what I just explained above.

    Maybe that didn't answer your question but that's ok because you're my friend and you aren't going to hate me for it.

    edit:
    Ohy eah bro I 'm using a different phone for now. I think I forgot to text you the new number. I'll send it over in a bit.
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  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Hey ESN, could you discuss the difference between doing TKD with f+mp vs cr.mk/hk? Same initial cancel window?
    The kick version reaches just a little farther too right? Guess I'm trying to figure out if the only barrier to execution is weird hand positions.

    Also I like to use cl.hk on Urien sometimes. Seems like it catches headbutt and jump on wake up. How about that into demon? Train them to stay on the ground then let the hell fires burn.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    Hey ESN, could you discuss the difference between doing TKD with f+mp vs cr.mk/hk? Same initial cancel window?
    The kick version reaches just a little farther too right? Guess I'm trying to figure out if the only barrier to execution is weird hand positions.

    Also I like to use cl.hk on Urien sometimes. Seems like it catches headbutt and jump on wake up. How about that into demon? Train them to stay on the ground then let the hell fires burn.
    You have half the time to cancel the cr.RH into Demon before it hits. It seems like the cr.RH~Demon moves a bit farther on the first few frames, but ESN's site list it as 13px, compared to t.Strong, which is 20.

    I've done TKD with t.Strong many, many times in practice, but only once with cr.RH, it is a very tight window.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    You try to do TKD with cr.mk/hk? I want to see that ^^ (without macro of course)

    Initial cancel window for demon is actually the startup (or maybe startup -1, can't test now) of the normal you use, as demon can cancel anything on ground on any frame (afaik). So f+mp is the most used (the only possible way?) for TKD simply cause it's the normal with the longer startup and thus the easiest to pull out as a TKD.
    So hand positions is a big problem (for me at least) but this startup thing is an even more important one IMO.
    I can do TKD with f+mp with a really good success rate but i only managed to do TKD with far HK (second slowest startup) once a few years ago, and i'm starting to think after all this time not being able to do it again that i dreamt it lol.
    The good news is that all this is on console/emu, so it may be more doable on arcade.

    Concerning range, the rule is "how many pixels does Gouki move forward between first frame of normal and demon activation", unlike the usual kara property (1st frame).
    I quickly looked on my site and find those values:
    - f+mp : 20
    - far hk: 20
    - far hp: 22 (never thought of this one before today)
    - cr.mk: 26
    - cl.hk : 33 (that nice range here is not really useful as you're already pretty close to your opp)
    - cr.hk : 35

    So, cr.hk is better in term of range by is also waaay harder to pull out as a TKD...
    And as regular KD btw, at least for me :(
    That said, IMO, range is less important for a TKD setup than for a regular KD, so i see no point trying to use something else than f+mp for TKD...

    Unless you can do (and confirm) cl.hk TKD, this probably only works with crouching chun/oro (all chars with very low crouching hitboxes), cause first hit doesn't hit them so you have enough time to confirm into demon.

    edit: telesniper has been fastest ^^
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    You try to do TKD with cr.mk/hk? I want to see that ^^ (without macro of course)
    I did it about a week ago, in training mode, I swept Ryu about 5 trillion times before it though....
    I should say that I used my pinky for RH, thumb for Short and my second pinky knuckle for Fierce (lol) It looks like I roll my fist in a ball when I attempt it, hurts the hell out of my pinky after a while though.

    @5:30, it looks like Kuroda cancelled cr.RH in time. @18:25 he does a tachi Gigas in 3 tries... I haven't been able to do one yet (would love to know which "kara" he's talking about there).
    http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm17837500
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    I should have said 'consistently' ^^

    Framerate of the video is pretty bad but i'd say if he had been closest to Ken, cr.hk would have hit him before demon activation. Can't really be sure though...
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    I should have said 'consistently' ^^

    Framerate of the video is pretty bad but i'd say if he had been closest to Ken, cr.hk would have hit him before demon activation. Can't really be sure though...
    Whoever could do that consistently deserves some kind of medal. Earlier in the video he was using cr.Forward, which IIRC can't be TKD'd as it's one frame faster than cr.RH, but just from the sound, it seemed like it cancelled fast enough. Seriously, 3S videos need to be as high quality as the Stunfest XI tournament. Japan needs to get some HD capture devices, it would be amazing to see some GJ combos that alternate between blue Yun and regular Yun... lol.
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Wow those are a lot of details. I had no idea there was so much variation between the different versions of TKD.
    Silly me for writing a post late and forgetting that the first hit of cl.hk hits most of the cast crouching. Saw Harmonaz do it on a Chun's wake up once in a tourney vid. Looked pretty damn cool.

    Guess I assumed that cr.mk and cr.hk were almost the same since they can both me used for kara srk with Ken. I should know better though. This game is brimming with nuance.

    @telesniper I remember you actually doing a demon, can't remember if it was KD or TKD, using cr.hk on me during one of our sets. I sat there gawking for a moment. Didn't even know you messed with Gouki at the time. It's actually that instance that popped into my mind last night and prompted me to ask.

    Was hoping I could use cr.hk to AA demon and move me just the right amount of forward as they land. Something like that. Not gunna happen though.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    @telesniper I remember you actually doing a demon, can't remember if it was KD or TKD, using cr.hk on me during one of our sets. I sat there gawking for a moment. Didn't even know you messed with Gouki at the time. It's actually that instance that popped into my mind last night and prompted me to ask.

    Was hoping I could use cr.hk to AA demon and move me just the right amount of forward as they land. Something like that. Not gunna happen though.
    Oh yeah, I remember that, back in the days of pad use... It was a buffered KD after st.Strong. st.Strong~:f: delayed Jabx2->walk a bit~:df:+RH ~Short~Fierce. IMO, a buffered cr.RH KD is easier on pad, RT~A~RB is a bit easier for me currently.

    I suppose you could do that if you recognized their jump would land within the cr.RH KD range, you'd need to cancel it in the later frames most likely. Possible, but it could be hard to judge the distance so quickly, especially against Dudley.

    In other news, just did my 2nd TKD with cr.RH, only took half a trillion sweeps this time! Set CPU to quick stand and no guard for the best practice set up.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Wow those are a lot of details. I had no idea there was so much variation between the different versions of TKD.
    Silly me for writing a post late and forgetting that the first hit of cl.hk hits most of the cast crouching. Saw Harmonaz do it on a Chun's wake up once in a tourney vid. Looked pretty damn cool.

    Guess I assumed that cr.mk and cr.hk were almost the same since they can both me used for kara srk with Ken. I should know better though. This game is brimming with nuance.

    @telesniper I remember you actually doing a demon, can't remember if it was KD or TKD, using cr.hk on me during one of our sets. I sat there gawking for a moment. Didn't even know you messed with Gouki at the time. It's actually that instance that popped into my mind last night and prompted me to ask.

    Was hoping I could use cr.hk to AA demon and move me just the right amount of forward as they land. Something like that. Not gunna happen though.
    Yeah, it's exactly that demon©Harmonaz which made me remember about this! Was during Toukeki qualif iirc, pretty epic!

    AA demon is a really nice tool, i should use it way more often, but no need to kara, true kara or even buffer, just crouch and lp, lp, :df:, lk, hp the matest possible. Adding cr.mk/hk whatever would be harder for no real bonus except maybe a lowered hitbox but you don't need that.

    Concerning TKD, IMO, learning something else than f+mp one is a waste of time.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    Concerning TKD, IMO, learning something else than f+mp one is a waste of time.
    I agree, but it's still fun for a little execution rep, like do 5 non t.Strong TKDs in addition to several standard TKDs. After my most recent cr.RH TKD, I noticed that my t.Strong TKD was much more consistent, it felt like taking off wrist and ankle weights.

    Also just did my first tachi Gigas, within my first 10 counterclockwise spins even, after SO many clockwise attempts, was very random. I was kinda mad that it didn't connect on the dummy though.

    What are some other execution heavy combos or moves, even ones that aren't even remotely match viable? I haven't been able to pull off b.Strong Kara SA2 with Q, that seems almost inhuman....
  • OMG its a duckOMG its a duck Bruh I'm in down bad bruh Joined: Posts: 1,920
    There always TTTH with Urien. And the HP dash punch cross under HP dash punch thing with Q on twins, but that's not so much hard as it is learning the timing.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    There always TTTH with Urien. And the HP dash punch cross under HP dash punch thing with Q on twins, but that's not so much hard as it is learning the timing.
    Did both of those on pad, haven't pulled off TTTH on stick yet. TTTH was on Ryu, though I know $ did it on Ken.

    I know TTH on the twins is hard, I've only done it a few times. There's also a ton of partitioned midscreen combos with Urien, but what about Remy? I haven't used him much outside of machine gun LoVs. I'm basically looking for some execution stress exercises to add to my training mode routine, Keeper Jin isn't that hard or useful compared to the Fierce loop, which I do 13 reps of on standing Ryu and Ken starting with GJ->Fierce. Kara Palm is fun, BTW, why don't more people end Kara Palms (or GJ in general) with Fierce Shoulder to Strong Shoulder-> ender? It does more damage and works on alot of the cast as far as I can tell.

    Was thinking of asking this in either IglooBobs training mode adventure thread, or What's the most badass thing to do in sf3, but I figured I'd ask while I'm here.
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Maybe the standard GJ ender gets the most meter.

    Also if you are looking to max out your execution stat in some imaginary 3rd Strike player profile database then why don't you perfect the Jiro Demon SGGK. Almost as hard as TKD but with the added stress of landing a parry and doing a Kara throw cancel all at once.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    Maybe the standard GJ ender gets the most meter.

    Also if you are looking to max out your execution stat in some imaginary 3rd Strike player profile database then why don't you perfect the Jiro Demon SGGK. Almost as hard as TKD but with the added stress of landing a parry and doing a Kara throw cancel all at once.
    Looks to be the same meter gain at the end, which is weird because RH upkicks (GJ) to Jab Shoulder->ender seems to get the same meter as Fierce Shoulder to Strong Shoulder->ender... I would have guessed that the latter would get a bit more meter due to the strength of the moves.

    I like the challenge of it is all, hell, I can't even reliably dash left on stick yet but I have fun with these types of things. I think I've said it plenty of times, but my execution sucks, I can't do basic stuff (which I am practicing) but I'm stubborn, so I like to do the harder things until they feel kinda easy. Also my consistency is awful, dash 5 times in a row? Nope, I'd rather jump on the last dash........ ugh

    Is that a towards parry then SGGK the rest, or a down parry first?
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Looks to be the same meter gain at the end, which is weird because RH upkicks (GJ) to Jab Shoulder->ender seems to get the same meter as Fierce Shoulder to Strong Shoulder->ender... I would have guessed that the latter would get a bit more meter due to the strength of the moves.

    I like the challenge of it is all, hell, I can't even reliably dash left on stick yet but I have fun with these types of things. I think I've said it plenty of times, but my execution sucks, I can't do basic stuff (which I am practicing) but I'm stubborn, so I like to do the harder things until they feel kinda easy. Also my consistency is awful, dash 5 times in a row? Nope, I'd rather jump on the last dash........ ugh

    Is that a towards parry then SGGK the rest, or a down parry first?

    I believe it's either. If you parry forward you can move the stick in a reverse fireball motion and finish off the lk, hp. If you do down parry you can do a regular fireball motion and finish off the lk, hp. All of this is assuming you buffered jabs somewhere and are following up with a parry.

    These motions work because the diagonal direction from the fireball motion has forward in it.
    8tROOXi.png
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    I believe it's either. If you parry forward you can move the stick in a reverse fireball motion and finish off the lk, hp. If you do down parry you can do a regular fireball motion and finish off the lk, hp. All of this is assuming you buffered jabs somewhere and are following up with a parry.

    These motions work because the diagonal direction from the fireball motion has forward in it.
    So like, :d:-> t.Strong~Throw->Jab x1 -> df or towards-> Short~Fierce?

    Or would the Jab input for throw not count so you would need to input another?
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