3rd Strike Frame Data

1679111214

Comments

  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    tth on twins is not so bad. especially when compared to ttTh.

    TTTH is still the only thing ive never been able to land. tth on twins is np. maybe 3/5 times for me.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    tth on twins is not so bad. especially when compared to ttTh.

    TTTH is still the only thing ive never been able to land. tth on twins is np. maybe 3/5 times for me.
    Wow 3/5? TTTH for me seems easier tbh than TTH on the twins. For some reason, on OE with pad, you can't do 3 straight tackles with only using one direction to charge in a row, you have to alternate at least once to back instead of down back... It drove me insane before I realized that...

    EDIT: I meant 4 straight charge moves in a row with the same charge direction. So for TTTH, the charge order I use is db, db, b, df.
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    3/5 on a good day. 2/5 on a regular day. 1/5 on a hangover day.

    i should specify arcade. for console id subtract one from each of the above numbers. :)
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    i should specify arcade. for console id subtract one from each of the above numbers. :)
    I think it would be obvious you meant arcade ;)

    You've probably tried every combo for charging TTTH known to man but... Try b, b (buffered), db, df, I just used that on pad and it worked much better for me than my previously stated charge inputs. The third Headbutt can be a tiny bit slower if you get the first 2 off without actually moving backwards.
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    So like, :d:-> t.Strong~Throw->Jab x1 -> df or towards-> Short~Fierce?

    Or would the Jab input for throw not count so you would need to input another?
    I have never pulled it off but Jiro Demon is:
    parry toward or down then to neutral (for that clean tasty blue) then toward lp+lk then lp x2 toward lk hp. All very very fast and accurate. Youtube it for visual example.

    So back to my original question to ESN (excuse us if the thread has gotten messy). So I checked it out in training mode and holy crap you have a lot of distance to cancel regular demon for AA. I thought if they empty jumped you had to basically be right in their face as they land but I was wrong. Gunna use this shit even more! People will be salty but I'll say, "you shouldn't have jumped at me with two meters fool!"

    Tell me Mr. Frame Data what can someone do to stop or mess up AA demon. Seems as though if I can cancel it super late/fast and they jump then they're F'ed. I remember JR getting all adamant and yelling even louder than normal on here about how a properly timed AA demon was inescapable.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    I have never pulled it off but Jiro Demon is:
    parry toward or down then to neutral (for that clean tasty blue) then toward lp+lk then lp x2 toward lk hp. All very very fast and accurate. Youtube it for visual example.

    what can someone do to stop or mess up AA demon. Seems as though if I can cancel it super late/fast and they jump then they're F'ed. I remember JR getting all adamant and yelling even louder than normal on here about how a properly timed AA demon was inescapable.
    I thought there was a t.Strong in there though... If the t.Strong is needed than yeah, I mashed it out in training mode a few times last night. Felt like I pressed Jab 20 times before the Demon would come out.

    Ryu could air EX Tatsu, Gouki Fireball, Ken could EX Tatsu as well if he suspects it, Makoto's EX Tsurugi, Necro j.Strong(?), Oro double jump etc. If you timed it perfect, they may not able to jump out, that's the case with standard throws at least, but I haven't a clue about grab Supers.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    I don't know how Jiro does his demon but if he cancels it out of grab...that's something.

    I would just do it:

    During a prior attack whether you are using their block stun or your own,
    -buffer jabx2 in the block
    -parry whichever direction you want, this is the wildcard
    -use the fireball or reverse fireball to get the forward out
    + if high parry, forward to down for the extra forward needed to count as demon input for quickest exec.
    + if low parry, down to forward for the down forward to count as demon input for quickest exec.
    -lk, hp
    8tROOXi.png
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Ooooops @telesniper. Rattled it out in a rush and made a mistake. After the initial parry you do Kara throw with his command overhead. So yeah there is a strong punch in there.

    I thought for a long time that the first lp in the throw would count to the following demon input but it doesn't.

    Actually I was thinking about the extra distance gained by cr.hk vs cr.mk for Kara KKZ. To hit Remy, Oro, Ibuki and 12 after the lp reset you must Kara so I wonder if it matters to get the extra distance. Also I've used that Kara for AA or to chip before but always assumed mk and hk gave the same distance.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    Ooooops @telesniper. Rattled it out in a rush and made a mistake. After the initial parry you do Kara throw with his command overhead. So yeah there is a strong punch in there.

    I thought for a long time that the first lp in the throw would count to the following demon input but it doesn't.

    Actually I was thinking about the extra distance gained by cr.hk vs cr.mk for Kara KKZ. To hit Remy, Oro, Ibuki and 12 after the lp reset you must Kara so I wonder if it matters to get the extra distance. Also I've used that Kara for AA or to chip before but always assumed mk and hk gave the same distance.
    I watched some hand videos of Jiro and in these videos at least he did input throw unless there wasn't a parry. He did a wake up low parry, then t.Strong->double tap Jab-> t.Short-Fierce.

    In a different video he did a standard SGGK with t.Strong, but didn't buffer the Demon, Dudley neutral jumped the throw so then he Demon'd.

    In @ESN 's video, which is like 6 years old now lol, he combines both. Now against a practice dummy, I pulled it off a few times, but like I said, I mashed Jab untill I seen the start up of t.Strong, then input t.Short-Fierce. Feels very weird on my hands....

    For Reset-> KaraKKZ, I'll do cr.RH, it's easier on my hands and it's the same positioning to do Makoto's backwards Kara EX Fukiage. It depends on the position of the st.Jab in my experience if cr.Forward doesn't get you close enough, though I think that's happened to me only versus Ibuki.
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    That damn troublesome Ibuki!

    Hey ESN is there much variation between how much cr.mk and cr.hk move the shotos forward?
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    ...
    Actually I was thinking about the extra distance gained by cr.hk vs cr.mk for Kara KKZ. To hit Remy, Oro, Ibuki and 12 after the lp reset you must Kara so I wonder if it matters to get the extra distance. Also I've used that Kara for AA or to chip before but always assumed mk and hk gave the same distance.
    Iirc, that cr.hk extra range over cr.mk only exists for demon cancel, precisely cause of the demon property to be able to cancel any grounded move on any frame. KKZ doesn't have this, so it's a regular kara (cancel on first frame), and cr.mk range = cr.hk range (13 iirc). If KKZ could do the same as demon, that kara cr.mk KKZ (or whatever) would be way easier to do. (execution wise, timing to connect to KKZ would still be strict)
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    Iirc, that cr.hk extra range over cr.mk only exists for demon cancel, precisely cause of the demon property to be able to cancel any grounded move on any frame. KKZ doesn't have this, so it's a regular kara (cancel on first frame), and cr.mk range = cr.hk range (13 iirc). If KKZ could do the same as demon, that kara cr.mk KKZ (or whatever) would be way easier to do. (execution wise, timing to connect to KKZ would still be strict)
    So does that mean that at max st.Jab (elbow) range, Kara KKZ can't get the full amount of hits on smaller characters?
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    Jab range?
    The max range at which it's an elbow, instead of a fist that connects (I should have said cl.Jab...). I said earlier that a few times (on I believe Ibuki) a KaraKKZ didn't give enough range for the first blast of it to hit my opponent, I remember seeing the kara edge him forward, but most likely it was just an execution error as it hasn't happened to me in quite a while. Also, it doesn't seem like the difference between cl.Jab and far.Jab after Short Tatsu is more than 13px.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    It's always a cl.jab afaik, i've never seen a far jab after lk tatsu (or bad memory).
    I don't remember precisely but i think as long as you succesfully kara the KKZ with cr.hk/mk, you're good with any char on which regular kkz doesn't connect, jab is not really important here.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    It's always a cl.jab afaik, i've never seen a far jab after lk tatsu (or bad memory).
    I don't remember precisely but i think as long as you succesfully kara the KKZ with cr.hk/mk, you're good with any char on which regular kkz doesn't connect, jab is not really important here.
    At the max range that cr.Forward->Short Tatsu combos, it will be a far Jab against Oro and IIRC Ibuki as well. Damn far jab not being reset super able....

    Anyways, I went through the small characters and each time I got the KaraKKZ after cl.Jab, it combo'd correctly. So it was an execution error on my end.

    EDIT: It also becomes far.Jab at max range on Shotos and smaller hitbox characters.

    EDIT #2: Removed vvvvv because it was an execution error... I was still hitting down after going back....
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    @ESN hoping you could fill me in on a few missing spots on the site. Thanks!

    What is the block advantage and recovery of Chun's Hyakuretsu and SBK?
    What is the recovery on empty demon flip for Gouki?
    What is the recovery on empty tackle for Sean?
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    1/ Don't know why recovery values are missing, weird. You can find them pretty easily with the global view window in the hitboxes viewer, til i update the site.
    2/ Recovery of what and in comparison of what? Empty DF has no active frame and you can cancel DF on a pretty large window anyway.
    3/ Same here, you can use an arbitrary marker/event but this is no more the same definition.

    Not really helpul on this one :p
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    2/ Recovery of what and in comparison of what? Empty DF has no active frame and you can cancel DF on a pretty large window anyway.
    I think he's asking how large the window is in which he can be hit, on the ground after empty demon flip, before being able to block.
  • TheOtherRedCaiborgTheOtherRedCaiborg Scrub-ass scrub Joined: Posts: 34
    Upon reading this thread, I wondered, has anyone found out Uriens pixel range on a kara throw? He's the only one who I've never found. The SRK Wiki doesn't have it, either.
    SSFAE: Chun-Li
    MK9: Raiden
    Blazblue: Noel, Makoto, Ragna
    MvC 2: CapCom/Storm/Cable
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,711
    Play more.
  • GaijinblazeGaijinblaze fingerlicans Joined: Posts: 2,529 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    yun's c.hk really adds 0 range? so kara command grab has no purpose besides style points?
    This message will self-destruct.
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    Kara zenpo is only for when you're in geneijin. That's what I've been told anyway.
    かかってきな。
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    yun's c.hk really adds 0 range? so kara command grab has no purpose besides style points?

    I don't know where you got this, and because I have no proof of it otherwise, I can't believe this.
    8tROOXi.png
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    As Yuuki and GaijinBlaze said, cr.HK adds 0 range but it adds +8 during GeneiJin.

    telesniper > iirc, it's 3 frames (time for Gouki to be able to do something after he's on the ground (y=0)), but this value is not that interesting IMO, and you can be hit before those frames anyway, depending of the move used. To me, the real "interesting" data would be time between demon flip (empty) cancel with K button to Gouki being able to do something, but it's a range of values and not a single precise value.
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    dander go in training mode. Do cr rh without genei Jin and do it while in genei Jin. yun hella moves forward when he does it in genei jin lol.

    So this is really stupid but if delaying attacks clearly beat guard jump/parry jump, the best way to beat that is just fucking block yea? lol
    かかってきな。
  • JAK..JAK.. Joined: Posts: 544

    So this is really stupid but if delaying attacks clearly beat guard jump/parry jump, the best way to beat that is just fucking block yea? lol
    Beat in what way? And do you mean as the defender or the one trying to counter the guard jump?

    Thinking about it I would say it is too situational to really give one specific answer (things like back dashing may work depending in the situation)
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    I meant as the one trying to defend. if you're trying to counter the guard jump then you delay your attack so it hits them on the start up of their jump frames where they're still grounded so they don't get hit in the air/ reset or you try to hit them when they already jump (mak fukiage, ken ex tatsu etc)

    Besides obviously blocking I was thinking if there's specific ways to try beating people who delay attacks. I guess besides back dash, wake up throw, and doing a wake up normal move would be just some ways to beat it(?)

    Haven't played against anyone in a month so I think I'm confusing myself :x
    かかってきな。
  • JAK..JAK.. Joined: Posts: 544
    I meant as the one trying to defend. if you're trying to counter the guard jump then you delay your attack so it hits them on the start up of their jump frames where they're still grounded so they don't get hit in the air/ reset or you try to hit them when they already jump (mak fukiage, ken ex tatsu etc)

    Besides obviously blocking I was thinking if there's specific ways to try beating people who delay attacks. I guess besides back dash, wake up throw, and doing a wake up normal move would be just some ways to beat it(?)

    Haven't played against anyone in a month so I think I'm confusing myself :x

    I see what you are asking and those options are all valid although which one is the correct one will very depening on your character and the character that has you knocked down.


    A wakeup normal could work depending in what they are trying to stop your guard jump with. More startup frames of that attack equals a smaller window which that can cover with parry before it. This in theory would work pretty well against slower anti guard jump normals (mak's strong/fp) then faster ones (ken's cl strong or chun's cl rh).

    Ken could also use cr fwd instead to beat guard jump and back dash although it would give him a much smaller window to cover it with parry making a quick wakeup poke/throw more viable.

    You could also wakeup tap down, tap forward (or vise versa) depending on there options.

    *pure theory fighter or course*
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    I have never tried it in genei jin, I only tried it normal mode and I remember hearing the HOO and landing a grab I couldn't before.

    how strange.
    8tROOXi.png
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    Dander: The twins have a fast walk speed. it can give the illusion that their throw/zenpo range is further than it is.

    mami: went in training mode, recorded yang doing delay low forward or st strong on kens wake up. wake up quick normals like close strong, throw, and back dash won. St strong and low forward would hit but slash wouldn't combo if ken back dashed. also I tried inputting toward parry ---> low parry and visa versa on wake up. While risky and definitely a guess, I wonder if this wouldn't be something to use every now and then when trying to get high risk-high return? Probably overanalyzing this but just trying to get an idea of what the counters are to people who delay their attack.
    かかってきな。
  • OMG its a duckOMG its a duck Bruh I'm in down bad bruh Joined: Posts: 1,920
    Just do a delayed parry in the correct direction because you guessed right because you're awesome.
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    telesniper > iirc, it's 3 frames (time for Gouki to be able to do something after he's on the ground (y=0)), but this value is not that interesting IMO, and you can be hit before those frames anyway, depending of the move used. To me, the real "interesting" data would be time between demon flip (empty) cancel with K button to Gouki being able to do something, but it's a range of values and not a single precise value.

    I'm just trying to look deeper into the use of his demon flip to do ambiguous crossups.
    Played around with the standard post SA1 setup (Ken), mp - dash - hk demon flip - empty cancel K - cl.mk or cr.lkx2
    Think I'm doing the normal/s too slow after the empty demon flip because throw was beating me. On the other hand a reversal srk was blocked on cr.lkx2.

    Is the time after landing but before you can act with a demon flip kick the same as when its empty canceled (3 frames)?
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    You guys should look into learning circuit boards and reading them so that we can then get some more insight into how the code works. I've gone as low level as I'm going to go for a while.
    8tROOXi.png
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    by reading them, I mean analyzing them and knowing what kind of procedures function best on this kind of hardware sos we can assume a coding style and finally start rebuilding the thing for real. None of this oe bullshit.

    I will work on this for the rest of my life, if I have to.

    Imagine us, 30 years from now, I'm just finishing native implementation of arcade training mode and ad hoc play with a nearby machine when suddenly all the television news casters and talk show hosts barrage my door, followed by burt reynolds, jay leno(still alive), the guy that sells tvs at best buy and the mac guy. They start breaking the windows, the shards are scratching away their skin, and I think the mac guy is missing an ear. Somebody's a fraud. They must have taken the ear and tied it to their necklace but forgot to rekill the zombie.

    Fucking scruburbia
    8tROOXi.png
  • OMG its a duckOMG its a duck Bruh I'm in down bad bruh Joined: Posts: 1,920
    Dander whenever I see you post, I pretty much think you're Dilbert.

  • DonkusDonkus Time Marches On Joined: Posts: 504 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    ESN

    I just found out about Final Burn RR and the hitbox data available. I decided to rip them all and was halfway through Ryu's arsenal when I found out that you have done everyone but TG. Nice work! I have a few observations.

    The frames for some of your super arts seem to be inconsistent. For example:

    Urien's EX Aegis Reflector is the only SA in the game available to the player that cannot be blocked on reaction. You give this a speed of -2. You gave Tyrant Punish a 0. But you gave Seraphic Wing a 1, which cannot be blocked on reaction. By your nomenclature, shouldn't Seraphic Wing be at least -1?

    Also, how did you decide when to start counting frames for Super Arts? With normals and specials it is easy, but with SAs it seems like the opponent is sometimes frozen while your guy is moving around... you may have n frames of extraneous movement yet the opponent cannot block or do anything (see Urien EX Aegis).

    Ryu's Shinshoryuken can hit the opponent before any red hitbox appears, do you know why this is?

    Guess I could always do New Generation or Second Impact. Are you already working on those?
    GOD BLESS THE RING
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Thx for all the remarks!

    You're right for Seraphic wings, according to this, it's -2. Well, -1 actually as it's a projectile, same as Ex Aegis, have to change it too. That negative data means it hits while still in superfreeze, and to answer second question, that superfreeze status (a precise address in FBA RAM, going from 0 to 2 then 1 when P1 super is activated and going back to 0 when screen is no more dark) is the reference i used.

    The global view window in link above shows this pretty nicely i think. I never took time to make a legend to explain all lines, so here it is:
    1- frame number...
    2- superfreeze status: go blue and then darker blue when P1 activate super. The first 5 frames of blue are the ones where P2 is still able to do and commit action which will execute right after superfreeze (except against Ex Aegis and Seraphic Wing :d)...
    3- (grey circle) P1 status: if dark, P1 is free to do anything he want, if whiter (is this word exist?), P1 can't, meaning he committed to an attack or block/has been hit...
    4- (grey circle) P2 status: same as above...
    5- (yellow circle) P1 invulnerability status: when yellow, P1 is fully invulnerable to attacks (but not necessarily throws)...
    6- (red circle) P1 active hitboxes: active attack here...
    7- (dark red circle) P1 projectiles active hitboxes...
    8- (orange circle) P1 active throw hitbox...
    Now i think about it, a line to show if unthrowable/ground throwable/air throwable, may be nice too...

    Sometimes opponent is able to move during the first superfreeze frame or in some other cases too but it looks to me more of a glitch happening from time to time than a proper game mechanic. Or at least, there is no clear explanation of this. So i don't bother with it and just gathered data about the more common situations.

    For Shinsho, it's cause of emulation itself not showing active hitboxes sometimes when they hit. I've spent a lot of time to find data somewhere else in RAM whithout success...

    No plan for NG/2nd even though i thought about it, but no real motivation to be honest. And as 3S is now back in the local arcade, well, you know :d
    I don't know if they work perfectly with those games, but, as i spent a lot of time to make LUA/PHP scripts already, i can give you them if you're interested. They make things a looot easier!
  • DonkusDonkus Time Marches On Joined: Posts: 504 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I'd be interested in any scripts you want to share, thanks!

    In the previous SF3 games, a ton of the supers couldn't be blocked on reaction. Capcom changed all the old ones for 3rd Strike and I wonder if it was a bug or deliberate.

    One other thing, you have Tyrant Punish as doing 0 stun damage. It actually does 8 stun damage, but only Chun Li (I think) is small enough to get hit by it.

    Thanks again for your answers and again great job on the site.
    GOD BLESS THE RING
Sign In or Register to comment.