Blocking

InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
So i ran a search and checked a couple pages and didn't see anything on this. Please forgive me if I missed a topic like this already.

O.K. So I love fighting games of any and every kind. But one thing that bothers me is when Block is holding the opposite direction. I FINALLY picked up this game (I was gonna do it day it came out but ran into problems with stuff), and played for a few hours. This is one of the best fighters (game play and visuals) I have played. However, the one thing holding this game back for me right now is blocking. Is there a way to change the block to an actual button? ( I don't need LB or LT ) Are they going to consider making this an option? I don't understand why I can change everything about the game except the way it blocks. I also see nothing holding them back from making it a button (maybe programing it to a button would make the characters sit still and the game doesn't work that way? Dunno.)

Again if I missed the topic (or the way to change block) just let me know. Any help would be appreciated. Extra Kudos to the game for it's awesomeness by the way ^.^ Well worth the wait.
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Comments

  • PobegaPobega #skullgirls Joined: Posts: 262
    Because blocking is an actual mechanic. Having block be a button gets rid of left/right mixups entirely, which are a huge part of the game. You have to anticipate which side to block.

    Do the tutorial on blocking mixups a couple of times, you'll get used to it.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    Please don't take this the wrong way, cause i don't mean it in a bad way. I don't plan on getting used to it ^.^ It's not an enjoyable mechanic for me. I haven't done the tutorial so I didn't know there are attack moves you could use with the blocking (is that what you meant?) The only game i remember hitting the opposite direction to block is DOA 2 Hardcore ( I think they had a block button I just was really good at countering so I almost never used it.)

    Thank you very much for getting back to me (and very quickly too.) I wasn't expecting a response for a couple hours at least.
  • Master ChibiMaster Chibi .: Dynamites! :. Joined: Posts: 14,934 mod
    Sorry dude, you're going to have to learn how to block like the rest of us. If you don't plan on getting used to it then find yourself another game :P
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    As sad as it is to say it, that's kinda what i plan on doing :P What it really means is just casual play for the game which is a shame because it's well done in general. But none of my friends and I will want to play this like we play other fighting games (Ya'know, for like 12 hours a day every day XP.)

    And I don't know if you meant it this way, but it's not a matter of learning how to block, it's just how it's done. You are giving up mobility (in my mind) when you make move and block the same button (a taboo to put two commands in the same button but that's another story all together.) Other games have a blocking system like this, an example is Mugen.
  • not so saintnot so saint The reports of my death are GREATLY exaggerated. Joined: Posts: 1,948
    Please don't take this the wrong way, cause i don't mean it in a bad way. I don't plan on getting used to it ^.^ It's not an enjoyable mechanic for me. I haven't done the tutorial so I didn't know there are attack moves you could use with the blocking (is that what you meant?) The only game i remember hitting the opposite direction to block is DOA 2 Hardcore ( I think they had a block button I just was really good at countering so I almost never used it.)

    Thank you very much for getting back to me (and very quickly too.) I wasn't expecting a response for a couple hours at least.
    He meant that it's actually deliberate design choice. You really should know where attacks coming from to block them successfully. There is that thing in 2D fighters called cross-ups when opponent is jumping on you with attack which hits below him. So if he's on the left and you're on the right he can jump towards you and either attack you from the front or wait till his character cross you over and then attack (while still in the air) technically from behind. In first case you need to hold right direction to block successfully but in second you need to hold left. So when he's jumping at you it's hard to say whether he's going to attack from left or right actually making you guessing. But if block has it's own button (MK games) those cross-up situations won't posses any danger since holding block button would protect you from both possibilities. That's why there's no way to reassign block from directions. Cross-ups are legit mechanic in SG puted in intentionally and taken into account in balancing.
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  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    Oh thank you for that explanation Not so Saint. However, I have to ask why you couldn't make the block still directional based, but you have to hold another button to get the block off? This isn't how it works in Soul Calibur but I will give this example. When playing against people who flank or jump (Taki ftw?) you have to stop kinda flick the stick to turn around and hit the block button again to get it off. So those could be two solutions right there. I feel as though my friends and I are in the minority for wanting block to be it's own thing, so it's not like we are going to take it to heart if it's not set up that way.

    Again I appreciate the explanation ^.^.
  • not so saintnot so saint The reports of my death are GREATLY exaggerated. Joined: Posts: 1,948
    Not sure what problem you're trying to solve here. Do you want to move forward and be able to quickly block at the same time? O_o
    It will be done as it was foretold for we are servants of the Skully Ones and we will consume tuna with bacon and we will party for days and nights without rest and we no need other fate despite this one! For we are what we are and we will kneel before no one >=[
    "Russian science rise again!"
  • Age_of_FoolsAge_of_Fools Joined: Posts: 705
    This type of block is a core part of how games like streetfighter or marvel work. In terms of balance, it makes blocking have the disadvantage of backing you into the corner. In terms of mixups it adds the left/right, other games have their own mixups, this is one of the ones in Skullgirls. I don't know for sure, but you might find 'hitbox' style arcade controllers useful, since the directions are all buttons, you might be able to hold the back button down, but you will still have to release it to be able to move.

    If you like the game's other stuff, learning to use this style of block command isn't too bad. When you jump, you can hold back immediately and it will keep your forward momentum. If you dash forward you can hold back immediately without loding the forward momentum. When you're holding back, or down back you can throw out normals without releasing it. In general if the opponent is on the ground their hits will be mid or low, so crouch blocking is best, if they're in the air their attacks are mid or high, so stand blocking is best.
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  • PobegaPobega #skullgirls Joined: Posts: 262
    Honestly, as much as I hate to turn a player away from Skullgirls, sounds like VF5FS would be the game for you. The only 2D fighter I know that uses a block button is Mortal Kombat, and I've yet to really play that but correct me if I'm wrong it doesn't have crossups. Games like Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Marvel vs Capcom, Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Melty Blood all use the directional blocking mechanic. It's an intentional design decision to allow crossup mixups, and to make applying pressure unsafe (if you are in my face attacking me, why should you be able to block while you do that?)

    Have you ever even played a 2D fighter before?

    Edit: Don't take that last sentence as an insult. I'm legitimately asking, non-sarcastically.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    No I don't want to move forward for blocking, I don't want to move anywhere when blocking. I look at it as a defensive measure. I understand the balancing part of it But against good players the blocking can be a pain in the butt. Around my area (New England); not sure about other places, but the people i play if you give any range and they are playing ranged characters you just handed them the match. I know what some of you might be thinking "What a noob" But honestly I know some people already in this game who can use the little 20's character and just chain you in the corner if the right moves are used. Knockback + high/ low constant ranged abilities being tossed out is kinda obnoxious to try and avoid damage with. I just feel like blocking is the worst thing i can do. I exclusively play valentine right now by the way, maybe my problem? I can Super Mario 3 and use her teleport to get that distance back, but it's a frustrating match to say the least.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    Ofcourse I have played 2D fighters before ^.^ I am back from the NES days. Were the older games like Mortal Kombat direction to block? If so I don't remember them and I feel silly x.x
  • PobegaPobega #skullgirls Joined: Posts: 262
    Ofcourse I have played 2D fighters before ^.^ I am back from the NES days. Were the older games like Mortal Kombat direction to block? If so I don't remember them and I feel silly x.x
    MK is pretty much the only 2d fighter (that I know of) to use button blocking. And IMO blocking with a button is kind of silly in a 2D fighter.

    And try picking up an anchor. Teams are so much better in this game than solos.
  • DRaGZ141DRaGZ141 Joined: Posts: 385
    Ofcourse I have played 2D fighters before ^.^ I am back from the NES days. Were the older games like Mortal Kombat direction to block? If so I don't remember them and I feel silly x.x

    MK, as far as I can remember at this moment, is the only 2D fighting game series that has ever used a button to block. It is pretty universal that 2D fighting games use back to block.

    And blocking is SUPPOSED to be a pain in the butt, it's very reactive and predictive.Though, for the record, you could do just down+back for block and that'll cover around 90% of an opponent's ground options.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    Yea that's a good idea. I will give that a try. Parasol was gonna be my next. Maybe she will help provide that range I need for certain fights.

    And i hope none of you are taking this the wrong way. I am playing on the higher (if not highest depending on how awake I am) difficulty) But as good as the AI is in this game, it will never compare to a player. It's just kinda my way of letting people know I am good (not fantastic, unstoppable.) but good at fighters.

    I know it's supposed to be a pain in the butt, but you are usually punished for blocking if you do it wrong. An example is Soul Calibur. If you were not just blocking it generally got you in trouble. At least in my experience.

    P.S. Part of the blocking and not moving thing I like is a mind play. Blocking for even a moment generally sends opponents to use counters to defense and then you can quickly switch up to an offensive attack. Just another of my two cents. I don't know if anyone else agrees with me. But against players on equal fighting skill with you sometimes you just need to psych them out.
  • DRaGZ141DRaGZ141 Joined: Posts: 385
    Yea that's a good idea. I will give that a try. Parasol was gonna be my next. Maybe she will help provide that range I need for certain fights.

    And i hope none of you are taking this the wrong way. I am playing on the higher (if not highest depending on how awake I am) difficulty) But as good as the AI is in this game, it will never compare to a player. It's just kinda my way of letting people know I am good (not fantastic, unstoppable.) but good at fighters.

    P.S. Part of the blocking and not moving thing I like is a mind play. Blocking for even a moment generally sends opponents to use counters to defense and then you can quickly switch up to an offensive attack. Just another of my two cents. I don't know if anyone else agrees with me. But against players on equal fighting skill with you sometimes you just need to psych them out.

    You do that exact same "mindplay" by just holding down+back. >_>
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    Oh i tried to edit my post, you are quick :P

    It's not the same mind play. There is nothing to show that you are blocking, other then stepping back, which isn't as impactful in my opinion. I feel backing up is more like an invitation more then a safety measure. I could; however, just be completely crazy and a complete noob :P.

    My only experience with fighters in tournaments in actual out of state fighting games is SC2 and Super Smash (counts right? :P ). Most other fighters are Local friends and Tournies. We are probably not very good around here though :P I don't know how well players do around here out of state cause i don't keep track honestly.
  • DRaGZ141DRaGZ141 Joined: Posts: 385
    Oh i tried to edit my post, you are quick :P

    It's not the same mind play. There is nothing to show that you are blocking, other then stepping back, which isn't as impactful in my opinion. I feel backing up is more like an invitation more then a safety measure. I could; however, just be completely crazy and a complete noob :P.

    My only experience with fighters in tournaments in actual out of state fighting games is SC2 and Super Smash (counts right? :P ). Most other fighters are Local friends and Tournies. We are probably not very good around here though :P I don't know how well players do around here out of state cause i don't keep track honestly.

    Okay, when you are holding down + back, you are crouch blocking. You are automatically in a crouch-blocking state, and the opponent is entirely aware of this. Down + back is essentially block on everything but overheads and aerials. Even when you're just walking backwards, you're in a block state if the opponent attacks you, and he knows this.

    EDIT: Okay, so you're from Smash. Think of it crouch-block as a weaker shield. I mean, you can still grab straight out of shield, right? Just because you're shielding doesn't mean you don't have attack options available. The same thing with crouch-block. Opponents view it as something like a shield state that you can attack straight out of.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    I see what you are saying. I understand the concept. I am just saying that it's not as big of an impact around here at least. Not to mention, to me you are giving up footing and time. But it's not the big of a deal man ^.^. I mainly just wanted to know if there was gonna be a way to change it. I got my answer and appreciate everyone's comments. I will stick to meh noobish games ^.~.
  • DRaGZ141DRaGZ141 Joined: Posts: 385
    I see what you are saying. I understand the concept. I am just saying that it's not as big of an impact around here at least. Not to mention, to me you are giving up footing and time. But it's not the big of a deal man ^.^. I mainly just wanted to know if there was gonna be a way to change it. I got my answer and appreciate everyone's comments. I will stick to meh noobish games ^.~.

    See, I don't understand what you mean by "giving up footing and time." Do you mean you're giving up space? Because you don't move when you're holding crouch+back, you're crouching.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    But you are not blocking air attacks if you are crouch blocking which is the entire reason people are saying back blocking is good right? Or am I misinterpreting that.
  • ataconaziataconazi Joined: Posts: 579
    Welcome to every fighting game ever made that isn't mortal kombat and isn't 3d
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  • DRaGZ141DRaGZ141 Joined: Posts: 385
    But you are not blocking air attacks if you are crouch blocking which is the entire reason people are saying back blocking is good right? Or am I misinterpreting that.

    Even in Mortal Kombat, there are high blocks and low blocks, so you still need to account for that.

    In fact, the only fighting game I can think of that doesn't have a high-low mix-up is Smash Bros., but that's a very different kind of game.

    In SG, the blocks are like a VS. blocking system. So you can do back + down for crouch-block, which covers mids and lows, just back for a regular block, which blocks highs + mids, and air block, essentially up + back, to block everything.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    I am not saying there isn't high and low blocks. I feel like you are missing the point.

    What would you classify games like Smash Bro?

    Like I said earlier man it's not a big deal. There are literally hundreds of games that have the blocking system I like. I was just hoping Skull Girls had it because it's been a game I have been anticipating for a redonculous amount of time. I am also saying there is nothing wrong with back blacking. I am fine with controls like that. I just do not enjoy playing games like that.
  • not so saintnot so saint The reports of my death are GREATLY exaggerated. Joined: Posts: 1,948
    Why don't you try and clear tutorial? It was made specifically to teach people who are new to the genre basics like this.
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    "Russian science rise again!"
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    ~face palm~ I am not new to this genre. This is getting kind of frustrating. I don't like that mechanic, that's all I am saying.
  • DRaGZ141DRaGZ141 Joined: Posts: 385
    I am not saying there isn't high and low blocks. I feel like you are missing the point.

    What would you classify games like Smash Bro?

    Like I said earlier man it's not a big deal. There are literally hundreds of games that have the blocking system I like. I was just hoping Skull Girls had it because it's been a game I have been anticipating for a redonculous amount of time. I am also saying there is nothing wrong with back blacking. I am fine with controls like that. I just do not enjoy playing games like that.

    I don't mind if you just don't like the game (nobody here minds that), I just don't understand your reasoning for not liking the back block.

    It is literally

    Back + Down = Crouch-Block (nearly every 2D fighting game)
    vs.
    Back + Down + Block button = Crouch-Block (Mortal Kombat)

    or

    Back = Standing Block (nearly every 2D fighting game)
    vs.
    Block button = Standing Block (Mortal Kombat)

    I don't understand why it's such a bad thing, and your explanations haven't made much sense. If it's literally just "I don't like it," then I would understand, but you've tried to explain it with "giving up footing and time" and "backing up is more like an invitation than a safety measure" which isn't true.
    ~face palm~ I am not new to this genre. This is getting kind of frustrating. I don't like that mechanic, that's all I am saying.

    To be honest, you kinda HAVE to be if this is such a foreign concept to you.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    Well "isn't true" is a subjective term IMO, as is "More like an invitation". I can have a difficult time articulating my self when trying to be diplomatic and I apologize like that. I find that when I give examples people just find a reason to attack so I am not comfortable going into examples or concrete detail.

    I guess what I am saying is that if you press back you take a step back unless you are basically doing a just-block (as it's hitting you.) That's fine, that's part of the game is to get good at things like that. I just don't like losing distance from my opponent unless I am playing a ranged fighter. One mistake on my part (I am human and I don't play fighters enough to 100% just block all the time.) and I am in the corner.

    Also you are talking about crouch blocking and not moving. But then Arial attacks hit you. I find this counter-intuitive to the entire discussion because everyone here says the reason for back blocking is to allow cross-ups. That was the reason I made my comment about that.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    I never said it was Foreign. I said I didn't agree with it. The reason people like it more is foreign to me. And you know what? Not So Saint clearly explained that in his first post to me. I understand now why people enjoy it. I guess it was wrong of me to suggest alternative means and I apologize for that.
  • PobegaPobega #skullgirls Joined: Posts: 262
    The main point is that offering the choice between button guarding and holding back to block would completely imbalance the game. You gain some huge advantages from button guarding that the game isn't balanced to handle; Mike Z specifically crafted this game the way it is because this is what he wanted.
  • DRaGZ141DRaGZ141 Joined: Posts: 385
    Well "isn't true" is a subjective term IMO, as is "More like an invitation". I can have a difficult time articulating my self when trying to be diplomatic and I apologize like that. I find that when I give examples people just find a reason to attack so I am not comfortable going into examples or concrete detail.

    I guess what I am saying is that if you press back you take a step back unless you are basically doing a just-block (as it's hitting you.) That's fine, that's part of the game is to get good at things like that. I just don't like losing distance from my opponent unless I am playing a ranged fighter. One mistake on my part (I am human and I don't play fighters enough to 100% just block all the time.) and I am in the corner.

    Also you are talking about crouch blocking and not moving. But then Arial attacks hit you. I find this counter-intuitive to the entire discussion because everyone here says the reason for back blocking is to allow cross-ups. That was the reason I made my comment about that.

    You generally don't lose distance by blocking on reaction. And yeah, high-low mix-ups are part of every fighting game. If you're crouch-blocking and you anticipate an aerial attack, just go into a standing block, it's a matter of moving the joystick slightly.

    Again, I don't understand this reasoning, it still seems to just be a matter of you don't like it for purposes other than game mechanics, either you're not comfortable with it or it's just a very foreign concept.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    I can understand it being an imbalance in a game designed for back blocking. I don't understand why a 2D game would be ruined by button blocking.

    And I think Mike Z did a fantastic Job ^.^ For people who like the back blocking this game seems like it's one of the best you can play. If not, it's at least a ton of fun. Fan service and one epic one liners up the wazoo :P

    Anyway I am heading to bed. Thank you all for the nice conversation. For you XBL players I am sure I will see you on a match or two over the next couple weeks while I finish out the game ^.^
  • DRaGZ141DRaGZ141 Joined: Posts: 385
    I can understand it being an imbalance in a game designed for back blocking. I don't understand why a 2D game would be ruined by button blocking.

    And I think Mike Z did a fantastic Job ^.^ For people who like the back blocking this game seems like it's one of the best you can play. If not, it's at least a ton of fun. Fan service and one epic one liners up the wazoo :P

    It wouldn't be ruined, it would just be...very unusual.

    It'd be like saying that you don't like that jumps are a set distance in fighting games, or that you can cancel some moves into other moves, such things are a very common part of fighting games that people generally never question, so it's quite unusual for someone to say they outright don't like it.
  • Age_of_FoolsAge_of_Fools Joined: Posts: 705
    I didn't like it at first either, it's just an odd habit to get used to after using button block. It makes sense once you do get used to it though.

    Also, don't apologize for expressing an opinion, it's great that you're willing to ask about the option rather than dropping the game outright.
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  • RustyShacklefurdRustyShacklefurd Donkey Kong Engineer Joined: Posts: 594
    I don't understand why a 2D game would be ruined by button blocking.
    It would nullify alot of offensive options needed to open people up. Left and right mix ups are a pretty big part of 2D games. Just think of it as if holding block would automatically sidestep in the proper direction for you in a 3D game. That... makes sense right? It did in my head. The point is that it removes/limits a big portion of the game's strategy. In a game like SG I just don't see it as a plausible option without making things needlessly complicated.

    Also, there aren't enough buttons for a block. There are already concerns from pad players about not having an optimal assist/tag setup because of it. For the record (I know you stated issues about articulating), I am still slightly confused on what's going on here. I hope this was a slightly constructive viewpoint on the matter o.O.
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  • evilweevleevilweevle Xbox GT : MrFossy Joined: Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭

    Also you are talking about crouch blocking and not moving. But then Arial attacks hit you. I find this counter-intuitive to the entire discussion because everyone here says the reason for back blocking is to allow cross-ups. That was the reason I made my comment about that.

    thats why you switch to a stand block when you see the opp jump. this is harder granted in air dashing games since they can be up in the air and back down again so quickly, but that is what push block is for, so you dont have to deal with peoples mixups.

    i used to prefer a button to block instead of holding back, but now the whole button holding thing is really weird to me. it just takes practice. plus you dont have to give up footing to block. you can advance forwards and then block once you get in range to the opps attacks. you just gotta try and anticipate what they are gonna do.
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  • Squire GrooktookSquire Grooktook The Releaser Joined: Posts: 784 ✭✭✭
    2d fighters don't need a block button imo. I know how you feel, when I first got into fighters, I wanted a block button for everything. But now I see that holding back is just WAAAAAAAAAAAY better and more comfortable for 2d fighting. Block button is only nice in SOME 3d fighters or brawlers.
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  • Squire GrooktookSquire Grooktook The Releaser Joined: Posts: 784 ✭✭✭
    2d fighters don't need a block button imo. I know how you feel, when I first got into fighters, I wanted a block button for everything. But now I see that holding back is just WAAAAAAAAAAAY better and more comfortable for 2d fighting. Block button is only nice in SOME 3d fighters or brawlers.
    Squire Grooktook: 5 dollars extra and you could have had Skullgirls instead of Divekick.
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  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    It would nullify alot of offensive options needed to open people up. Left and right mix ups are a pretty big part of 2D games. Just think of it as if holding block would automatically sidestep in the proper direction for you in a 3D game. That... makes sense right? It did in my head. The point is that it removes/limits a big portion of the game's strategy. In a game like SG I just don't see it as a plausible option without making things needlessly complicated.

    Also, there aren't enough buttons for a block. There are already concerns from pad players about not having an optimal assist/tag setup because of it. For the record (I know you stated issues about articulating), I am still slightly confused on what's going on here. I hope this was a slightly constructive viewpoint on the matter o.O.

    Yes it's constructive but I feel like people are looking at one part of the conversation, such as the posters after you. Are some of you even reading my posts, or am I wording things too softly? I am just trying to be diplomatic and have a nice conversation about this...

    OK so Rusty, what is your response to me when I say that you can HOLD BLOCK and then press the direction that you would like to block for it to be effective? That is not doing a damn thing for you, because you still have to perform basically the same action. I am sure some of you are like "wtf is the difference" Trust me when I say that to a person like me, it's all the difference in the world. We can ignore the whole "Holding block auto blocks the attack you are facing thing" Whatever, toss that out the window. It just makes me feel safer to know that when I am pressing the block button I am preparing to do so.

    What are some of you going to say when sometimes I like to walk back and not block? Am I blowing your mind yet? :O I am sure a lot of this is my play style. I play games generally different from other people, that isn't a bad thing. It means I am using the mechanics for a purpose that people don't generally see them for.

    Evilweevle. My point about not being able to block the arial attacks fell short on you. I will try to be more clear. Entire board so far is telling me that a block button would ruin cross ups (cause clearly you need block to just auto block right? Sorry for the harsh sarcasm but hopefully people will stop reading what they want to and actually have a discussion. Maybe if I mention I am a gamer? I play hundreds of all style games. Different controls and outlandish things are fine with me. Holding BACK is FINE! I don't think it's the most effective way (FOR ME AND MY DOZEN FRIENDS WHO PLAY FIGHTERS) to play, it's not definitive enough . I think it should be noted we don't suck tremendously at fighters, not even close.)

    I don't like my mobility fucked with, end of the story. I feel; this is me talking, that holding back ruins a lot of the mobility. YES I can change the way I play. But I don't want to play like every single one of you, that's boring. It's nice to pop in a game prepare for an all out meta war. Changing up the style of play each round. yes you can do that in this game. But it feels like less of a varying degree.

    When I put in a game I have one of two things I scream aloud to prepare if it's a fighting game. "WHO WEARS SHORT SHORTS?!?!" and "THIS WAS DESTINED TO BE!! LIKE MY FATHER AND HIS FATHER BEFORE HIM!!" I am not getting the same amount of excitement when I play this game

    Oh and with a creative mind, there are always enough buttons to work. Whats a pad player by the way? (are you fancy speaking me for controller?)

    So recap
    Messes with Mobility: If you can't see this or understand it, then just don't worry about it.

    There are literally a dozen different ways to do the blocking to make it balanced and fair: Start thinking outside the box. Again if you can't even begin to comprehend this don't worry about it.

    Trying to infer I am new to fighting games or saying that I "should just get used to it" Is not helpful to the conversation. I have been in the gaming (all types of games) scene long enough to know what works and doesn't work in games. Whether it works for you or not doesn't make a difference to me. Why, because we are people and people have different preferences.

    Hell I am about to use a game and feel free to call me out on this. Didn't DoA 2 Hardcore have a countering system that required you to counter high low or medium and you had to have relatively decent timing with it? I don't feel like was handed to you, and you had to hit a series of buttons. Blocking in most "3D games or brawlers" Can easily be bypassed all the time as I stated in an earlier post. This is fact. If you are having a hard time with a game, let me know I will give an example of how to bypass this. Grabbing is usually the best. Are you guys against grabbing? How about that dumb chick who chain grabs you the entire fight?

    I get the feeling most of you dislike these 3D fighting games, but I feel a good amount of them are balanced in the way they work. Call me mainstream, but Soul Calibur is one of the most balanced fighting games I have ever played. Yes SC is a 3D vs this 2D game so it's apples to oranges, but I am slightly changing the topic (Because my points of how to change 2D fighters are above) to understand why the hash on 3D fighters?

    P.S. How would it nullify offensive options? The best way i've found through blocking is by being aggressive and offensive. And this game HEAVILY rewards two styles of play. Hardcore aggressive, or range.
  • Age_of_FoolsAge_of_Fools Joined: Posts: 705
    So recap
    Messes with Mobility: If you can't see this or understand it, then just don't worry about it.

    Trying to infer I am new to fighting games or saying that I "should just get used to it" Is not helpful to the conversation. I have been in the gaming (all types of games) scene long enough to know what works and doesn't work in games. Whether it works for you or not doesn't make a difference to me. Why, because we are people and people have different preferences.

    Hell I am about to use a game and feel free to call me out on this. Didn't DoA 2 Hardcore have a countering system that required you to counter high low or medium and you had to have relatively decent timing with it? I don't feel like was handed to you, and you had to hit a series of buttons. Blocking in most "3D games or brawlers" Can easily be bypassed all the time as I stated in an earlier post. This is fact. If you are having a hard time with a game, let me know I will give an example of how to bypass this. Grabbing is usually the best. Are you guys against grabbing? How about that dumb chick who chain grabs you the entire fight?

    I get the feeling most of you dislike these 3D fighting games, but I feel a good amount of them are balanced in the way they work. Call me mainstream, but Soul Calibur is one of the most balanced fighting games I have ever played. Yes SC is a 3D vs this 2D game so it's apples to oranges, but I am slightly changing the topic (Because my points of how to change 2D fighters are above) to understand why the hash on 3D fighters?

    P.S. How would it nullify offensive options? The best way i've found through blocking is by being aggressive and offensive. And this game HEAVILY rewards two styles of play. Hardcore aggressive, or range.

    It does mess with mobility, but that's part of balance as I mentioned. In 3D games, the walls factor in differently to how corners do in 2D, so holding back wouldn't make sense there, but in 2D it stops purely defensive play from being overpowered. Similar to what throws do to prevent blocking from being overpowered. I mentioned a couple of ways to move forward while blocking, and dashing backwards is essentially the same as walking back without blocking.

    You might have some luck with the button + direction control as a suggestion, but since the current controls are traditional for the majority of 2D fighting games I suspect it would not be implimented.
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  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    You might have some luck with the button + direction control as a suggestion, but since the current controls are traditional for the majority of 2D fighting games I suspect it would not be implimented.

    Thank you for that. Yes I agree that's probably the case.

    Again I do understand the balancing problems. I just know there are generally ways around them. ^.^
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭✭
  • PongBoomPongBoom land of ice and snow Joined: Posts: 707
    Dude you suck at fighting games if this is new to you. These guys are being nice. Please shut the fuck up about how you hate backwards blocking.
    Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.
    -Winston Churchill
  • InxplotchInxplotch Internet wanderer Joined: Posts: 379
    Ok, you might not realize this, but button blocking would actually change the game in a very distinct way, even with the suggestions. And before I move on, I don't think people really rag on 3-D fighters, it's just that they are a different animal that must be treated in a completely different way. (for example, very few 3-d fighters involve jumping to any serious degree, and you will rarely see a projectile based fighter in a 3-d game) It's just prefrence, neither 2-d or 3-d are truly "better" but they have mechanics that only work in their domain.

    also, there literally are not enough buttons to do that in this game. Skullgirls is a 6 button game (designed for fightsticks) so everything can be done with only six buttons. Pads (controllers) have the convenience of having more buttons (which is why you are able to macro lb lt to any button combo you like). Adding a button for blocking would raise that number to 7, and the game was just not built that way. (hell, most fighters are specifically designed to be played with no more than 6 buttons. I'm quite sure games like blazblue and soulcal only play with 4)

    the reason people are saying that you are "new to fighting games" is pretty much because back blocking has been a core mechanic of most (but not all) 2-d fighting games since the age of street fighter, and many of the biggest 2-d fighting franchises took heavy advantage of this. So being uncomfortable with it is like being uncomfortable with a dragon punch. It's unique to this type of fighter and almost critical to know.

    Anyway, onto why a block button would change the game. As you said, a block button would make blocking a very definitive and deliberate thing. And that's ok in some games. But those games have a very distinct pace. Soul calibur is a VERY slow game, and games like smash have a lott of space to move about, allowing you much more time to react and thing. In the time someone does a move in soulcalibur, you could get 3 out in a game like skullgirls. This pacing is what makes having a button a bad thing. In a back-block game, you can quickly decide if you want to go on the defensive, and blocking in reaction to something is very easy, because you just shift your thumb (or grip). having a button makes reactionary blocking a much difficult endeavor. It'd be like trying to use light punch to stuff your opponent's attack. Also, in most 2-d fighting games, walking away from your opponent is an inherently defensive maneuver. It is rare to walk away from an opponent with some other intention, and crouching (which immobilizes you) is a VERY distinct sign of blocking. It means you have committed to it (as it prevents you from reacting to throws easily).
    It's kinda difficult for me to explain, but forcing players to use a button to block, especially in such a fast paced game like skullgirls, would change the way the game is played, it would (assuming there was no easy autoblocking or whatever) nerf the action and make everything much more risky, as you'd always have to be entirely dedicated to it. You mention back blocking is less "impactful" and, well, that's not a bad thing. being able to quickly move in and out of blockstate is important to defense and mobility.

    And, onto mix-ups. I'm not entirely sure how you want your block button to work, exactly, other than making block a more difficult and risky act, but it might close off options. you mention using throws as a means to bypass blocks. that's all well and good, but it limits options. it make the person on offense highly predictable. if the only good way to stop a person who is blocking is with throw, you immediately negate all options the attacker has, because the defense will now know exactly what's coming and what to do about it.



    in all, and I mean no offense by this, maybe the game just isn't for you. As a gamer, you should show willingness to be flexible, and learn the rules of the game an abide by them. occasionaly, if you don't like a rule, you can just dance around it and enjoy the game anyway. You'll lose something, but you still get to play. However, this is a core mechanic that has existed for ages,, and is as prevalent as using the "A" button to jump in platformers. being unable to accept this game mechanic will hinder your ability to enjoy the game, because it is so prevalent. It is completely ok to not like back blocking, but when you have generation after generation of fighters that employs this mechanic, you're going to have a tough time convincing people that some other way is really better.
  • RustyShacklefurdRustyShacklefurd Donkey Kong Engineer Joined: Posts: 594
    OK so Rusty, what is your response to me when I say that you can HOLD BLOCK and then press the direction that you would like to block for it to be effective? That is not doing a damn thing for you, because you still have to perform basically the same action. I am sure some of you are like "wtf is the difference" Trust me when I say that to a person like me, it's all the difference in the world. We can ignore the whole "Holding block auto blocks the attack you are facing thing" Whatever, toss that out the window. It just makes me feel safer to know that when I am pressing the block button I am preparing to do so.
    It's funny that you mention that because I had that EXACT circumstance in my post, but I took it out because I didn't want to sound like I was being condescending >< . It's a redundant approach to that idea. So at this point we're discussing a blend of personal preference and trying to implement this mechanic in a game like this. Also, yes, Pad players is referring to players who use the normal console controllers. It's not a negative thing, it's just to differentiate from arcade sticks.

    In other fighting games? Perhaps, but not in SG. As I said, there are not enough buttons. It's a 6 button fighter with lp+lk throw, tags, and assists. Having any further combinations would just create an artificial and unnecessary level of difficulty to the gameplay. I know I definitely wouldn't be able to do it since I use a 6-button stick. I can say with the utmost of confidence that a blocking mechanic like this would not fly in this game. There are definitely other reasons I'm sure I'm missing, conflicts with the current way alot of the mechanics operate I'm sure.

    I don't have much else to say on the topic of implementation of such an idea in a fighting game... it works for MK? You can still be mobile as well by back/forward dashing out, that will override proximity blocking. I don't feel like directional blocking is flawed, so I can't really discuss the topic much further. I'll be bowing out from here. I highly recommend just working with it for awhile, you might end warming up to it. Ya never know. Take care, sir.
    PSN: RustyShacklefurd
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  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    All of your points are very fair Inxplotch and I appreciate the time you took to write out your post. I feel it was well thought out and geared towards the conversation. I don't mean to come off in some of the ways I have, but it seems like a lot of people are reading the post and not taking away from it what I put.

    I don't think I have anything left to say as a response. I feel like most everyone has voiced their opinions and we should leave it at that.

    I don't mind being flexible in a game, don't get me wrong. I have played games with just about every style of controls you can think of. That doesn't mean I have to agree with the way things are set up. I will (and have) continue to play. I just won't take it past casual (not that people really care :P) I can beat the tutorial and game a dozen times and it doesn't really make the mechanic any better. It just means I am better at the mechanic. Do you see what I am trying to say? Hashing my way through Ridiculous isn't the problem. Most characters have a lot of evasive moves instead of blocking. Honestly the game isn't all that hard. As for the speed? Yes it's faster then most games, but I don't think it's THAT much different. The game is slow enough to read your opponent well enough. There are no surprises. It just means you have to be quicker about thinking.

    Again I appreciate your time and thoughts. I personally don't have anything else to say on the matter. So thank you all for your input.
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    Ha! Rusty, do you play on the 360? You and I seem to think the same way. I imagine a game between us would be wild. We basically were posting the same things at the same time.
  • RustyShacklefurdRustyShacklefurd Donkey Kong Engineer Joined: Posts: 594
    PS3, but its good to hear you are eager to play dispute disagreements with the blocking! Keep at it!
    PSN: RustyShacklefurd
    Steam: Weatherbee
  • InshiInshi Joined: Posts: 21
    ~Shakes fist at~ Damn PS3 users. (Just givin ya shit :P) The only game I've ever put down (After less then 2 hours) because of poor game play/controls/any reason was Castlevania X Chronicles. ~shudders~
  • Uncivilized ElkUncivilized Elk Joined: Posts: 713
    YIt just makes me feel safer to know that when I am pressing the block button I am preparing to do so.
    If it's simply a feeling, play more and get used to a new feeling. Done.
    What are some of you going to say when sometimes I like to walk back and not block? Am I blowing your mind yet?
    Hell no, you're not blowing anybody's mind.

    What exactly is the point of walking back without the auto-block? So that if you happen to get hit while walking back, you'll eat the hit? Great strategy there...
    You still move backward with the auto-guard there or not. What "playstyle" are you talking about? The only way this even makes sense is if you could stop blocking to run backward at the same speed as running forward, which this game does not allow and for good reason. So for SG, your above statement makes zero sense.

    And no, this game does not have many "evasive maneuvers" at all.
    PSN: Uncivilized_Elk
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭
    You're saying that "It's obvious someone is blocking", I don't get this. If you keep holding back, yes. But when does one do that? Just standing around, completely unmoving while I hold down a block button wouldn't be any less obvious. Proximity Block (You go into block animation even when outside the range of an opponents attack as long as you aren't miles away) ensures you don't always walk backwards. Blocking on the opponents wakeup (to bait out reversals) is done very shortly before they can move again, avoiding the issue of walking backwards (okay, you probably take 2 steps back if they don't reversal). . If blocking during forward walks was possible, zoning would suck, standing pokes would become useless and whatnot.
    Can you please give a specific example of a case where blocking by holding back is "bad" while button blocking would be useful without ruining the entire game?
    Why.
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