This game would be better without HD/NeoMax Combos

DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big MemberJoined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
Let me first say that I've been loving KoFXIII since I started playing it not too long ago (beginning of May.) I've been trying to learn as much as I can and have been working on putting together the best team I can.

But after playing a couple months, the one thing I can say I still really dislike about the game are the HD/NeoMax combos. They take a title with an amazing footsies game, perfect pace, and a well balanced roster and turn it into some Marvel-ized version of KoF where everyone can do a ToD or near ToD combo if they have enough meter and can set it up with the right move should their opponent make a single mistake. I think it's stupid that if I come in with a fresh character and get caught ONCE by the opponent, that character is as good as dead, and all I can do is watch while they juggle, cancel, and NeoMax them across the screen. Sure the combos take skill to perform, but wouldn't it take MORE skill to actually have to, you know, beat my character WHILE I CAN STILL CONTROL THEM?

It's also a matter of pretty much HAVING to utilize them if you want to be any good at the game. Even if I want to just play without them, the game pretty much makes it clear that there is a best way to do things and that way is by using HD/NeoMax Cancel combos. The fact that the timer moves as fast as it does makes that perfectly clear. Which is disappointing because as I said, the footsies game here is probably the best of any of the titles of this generation of fighters IMO. To me it's more fun to win with fast paced footsies going than it is to juggle/cancel/Max my opponent to death.

And before anyone comes in saying "You only hate them because you can't do them," I can do them. It's not an issue of not being able to do them, it's an issue of, why would a game that does SO many things well feel the need to add in such a silly mechanic.

I'm sure that another rebuttal will be something along the lines of, "Well, every character can do it, so..." Every character can X-Factor, but does that make it a good mechanic?

I guess what I'm asking is, am I the only one who feels like KoFXIII would be a better game without HD/NeoMax combos? I'm not trying to sound like a scrub, like I said, I genuinely love this game, but I wish they would keep Marvel outta my KoF.
"Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
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Comments

  • SaitsuSaitsu Keys Anyone? Joined: Posts: 18,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's only one way to be sure. Play the game and make sure both players never use HD combos or Neomaxes for an entire set.
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  • Fadedsun303Fadedsun303 Joined: Posts: 1,055
    They're a double-edged sword. Sure, you can land a ton of damage if you get an HD combo, but you run the risk of dropping the combo. It's even risky to activate because you might drop the tight link that's involved in starting the combo in the first place. I have trouble doing them and I've been practicing for a while, but I'm not going to hate on them because I can't do them yet. It's really hard to say if the game would be better without them. At my level I can't say they would be because I don't ever land them, and I don't play against people that can do it yet either, so to me it's a game without them.
  • Zx-toleZx-tole Joined: Posts: 456 ✭✭
    didn't KOF2002 have something similar?
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  • KrsJinKrsJin Cheat Kune Do Joined: Posts: 1,347
    I do feel using them is of great benefit and depending on team composition and who you're up against, yeah, you should be looking to use them. But I disagree with the line about 'having to use them.' Take this last EVO for example. A lot of the top 8 were burning drive meter to extend normal combos. Or using lots of meter for EX moves so that when they did activate HD they wouldn't even have 2-3 meters for their Neo Max.

    I actually love the dynamic they bring. Do I save for HD? Are they saving for HD? Ok they're fully loaded, time to change up how I'm playing.

    To me, they're like the proper way to do "Ultras". They require hit confirms, execution (Though some HD/Neo Max combos are pretty dang easy). They're so satisfying to land and fun for others to watch. And since it is a team based game, it's really only going to be used once, mayyybe twice in an actual match.
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  • joeyjeremiahjoeyjeremiah Joey Jeremiah, Esq., at your service. Joined: Posts: 51
    I do feel using them is of great benefit and depending on team composition and who you're up against, yeah, you should be looking to use them. But I disagree with the line about 'having to use them.' Take this last EVO for example. A lot of the top 8 were burning drive meter to extend normal combos. Or using lots of meter for EX moves so that when they did activate HD they wouldn't even have 2-3 meters for their Neo Max.

    I actually love the dynamic they bring. Do I save for HD? Are they saving for HD? Ok they're fully loaded, time to change up how I'm playing.

    To me, they're like the proper way to do "Ultras". They require hit confirms, execution (Though some HD/Neo Max combos are pretty dang easy). They're so satisfying to land and fun for others to watch. And since it is a team based game, it's really only going to be used once, mayyybe twice in an actual match.

    Couldn't have said it better. For ToD combos, most characters require 4-5 bars and there are many where the situation will not even allow 100% (activating off lows for example, the more common way of catching players in an HD, usually does not give 100%). If you really want to utilize that you have to play 2 rounds sacrificing your EX tools, DMs, GC Rolls/GC CDs and drive cancels. Your meter is an investment and you can burn it evenly throughout matches or save it all for the end. If you HD you'd better not fuck up because if you do that's your entire drive bar gone plus whatever meter you spent in the HD.

    Comparing HD to X-Factor is silly. One takes hitconfirms and high levels of execution to utilize and the other doesn't.
  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    But after playing a couple months, the one thing I can say I still really dislike about the game are the HD/NeoMax combos. They take a title with an amazing footsies game, perfect pace, and a well balanced roster and turn it into some Marvel-ized version of KoF where everyone can do a ToD or near ToD combo if they have enough meter and can set it up with the right move should their opponent make a single mistake. I think it's stupid that if I come in with a fresh character and get caught ONCE by the opponent, that character is as good as dead, and all I can do is watch while they juggle, cancel, and NeoMax them across the screen. Sure the combos take skill to perform, but wouldn't it take MORE skill to actually have to, you know, beat my character WHILE I CAN STILL CONTROL THEM?

    You shouldn't have been hit then. If you were determined enough to win by using the game engine you would also be using HD and NeoMax to beat your opponent. There has to be some point where you aren't in control of the fight, you had ample opportunity to be in control of the fight before you were hit.
    It's also a matter of pretty much HAVING to utilize them if you want to be any good at the game. Even if I want to just play without them, the game pretty much makes it clear that there is a best way to do things and that way is by using HD/NeoMax Cancel combos. The fact that the timer moves as fast as it does makes that perfectly clear. Which is disappointing because as I said, the footsies game here is probably the best of any of the titles of this generation of fighters IMO. To me it's more fun to win with fast paced footsies going than it is to juggle/cancel/Max my opponent to death.

    And before anyone comes in saying "You only hate them because you can't do them," I can do them. It's not an issue of not being able to do them, it's an issue of, why would a game that does SO many things well feel the need to add in such a silly mechanic.

    I'm sure that another rebuttal will be something along the lines of, "Well, every character can do it, so..." Every character can X-Factor, but does that make it a good mechanic?

    I guess what I'm asking is, am I the only one who feels like KoFXIII would be a better game without HD/NeoMax combos? I'm not trying to sound like a scrub, like I said, I genuinely love this game, but I wish they would keep Marvel outta my KoF.

    Laban would most likely agree with you, at least to some degree.

    This isn't Turbo, fighting games are no longer based entirely on footsies, zoning and mixups, this also isn't Marvel because X-Factor is a comeback mechanic, it is a mechanic BEYOND using meter management. By that definition KOF doesn't really have a comeback mechanic

    The whole purpose of HD and NeoMax is to make the combos and fighting even more FUN.
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  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭
    I do feel using them is of great benefit and depending on team composition and who you're up against, yeah, you should be looking to use them. But I disagree with the line about 'having to use them.' Take this last EVO for example. A lot of the top 8 were burning drive meter to extend normal combos. Or using lots of meter for EX moves so that when they did activate HD they wouldn't even have 2-3 meters for their Neo Max.
    This. People are putting to much importance or emphasis on saving meter and drive for that "big HD combo".
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  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do feel using them is of great benefit and depending on team composition and who you're up against, yeah, you should be looking to use them. But I disagree with the line about 'having to use them.' Take this last EVO for example. A lot of the top 8 were burning drive meter to extend normal combos. Or using lots of meter for EX moves so that when they did activate HD they wouldn't even have 2-3 meters for their Neo Max.

    I actually love the dynamic they bring. Do I save for HD? Are they saving for HD? Ok they're fully loaded, time to change up how I'm playing.

    To me, they're like the proper way to do "Ultras". They require hit confirms, execution (Though some HD/Neo Max combos are pretty dang easy). They're so satisfying to land and fun for others to watch. And since it is a team based game, it's really only going to be used once, mayyybe twice in an actual match.

    I understand what you're saying and to a certain point I agree, especially with the "How should I spend my meter" part of it. I guess I feel like they bring in an aspect of risk that doesn't (at least in my mind) make the game any better. It's basically like Tekken 5 or Marvel where you just sit there and watch your character get juggled across the screen until they die. I like that they require execution and that HD mode allows for things you can't do in "normal mode" but watching a fresh character die because they got tagged once by an opponent with a lot of meter seems excessive.

    They're a comeback mechanic in a way, albeit one that takes a bit of skill, but you could outplay your opponent and still get tagged once with an HD/Max combo and lose just like you can with an Ultra in SF4.
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • NickRocksNickRocks On the west side I'm screaming FUCK KD Joined: Posts: 14,830 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You shouldn't have been hit then. If you were determined enough to win by using the game engine you would also be using HD and NeoMax to beat your opponent. There has to be some point where you aren't in control of the fight, you had ample opportunity to be in control of the fight before you were hit.


    Laban would most likely agree with you, at least to some degree.

    This isn't Turbo, fighting games are no longer based entirely on footsies, zoning and mixups, this also isn't Marvel because X-Factor is a comeback mechanic, it is a mechanic BEYOND using meter management. By that definition KOF doesn't really have a comeback mechanic

    The whole purpose of HD and NeoMax is to make the combos and fighting even more FUN.

    So "don't get hit" is the answer? Bullshit. This is a fighting game, and no one playing is a machine that will be able to see where things are going 100% of the time. I can accept that there will be times when you aren't in control of the fight, but again, to see a FRESH character get juggled and Maxed to death just because they made one mistake? Even ST wasn't that brutal. Again, I'm not whining, I'm just questioning whether this is a good mechanic or not.

    I realize that there's more to fighting games than basics these days, but it seems like part of KoFXIII's appeal is that it's a little more "retro" (maybe that's not the right word) than most of the other fighting games this generation. Would the game be any worse WITHOUT the inclusion of of HD/Max combos? Would the game be any less deep even without those options? Even without, I could say it's still deeper than Marvel or SF4.

    And in a sense, HD/Max combos ARE a comeback mechanic. Granted one you have to purposely save meter for, that you don't get for free, and that takes some skill, but again, you could be down to your last character with little to no life left, against your opponent's last (but fresh) character, and rather than having to win your way out with footsies, combos, etc, you can just fish for a hit-confirm for big (ToD) damage and win. I think that dumbs the game down to a certain degree even if it DOES take skill and planning to execute.

    I don't really find HD/Max combos fun, but then I don't really take Marvel that seriously, and while I love Guilty Gear, there are at least Bursts so you have some way of getting out of the combo (to your own cost of course.)
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    neomax combos are dope

    You're a Marvel player though, so I can see why you'd like them because they cater more to the type of game you play. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but has there been a KoF game that's come before that's had a mechanic like this? I've played a bunch of them but never at a high level and I don't ever remember anything like this being in any of the other KoF games.

    Another thing too: I could see the point if the game had atrocious balance and certain characters NEEDED a mechanic like this to be able to compete, but by all accounts, KoFXIII is pretty well balanced and most characters can stand up to each other without needing something like this to win.
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • NickRocksNickRocks On the west side I'm screaming FUCK KD Joined: Posts: 14,830 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I play marvel 2, not 3. and soon to be 1 (yay origins!)

    XIII is my first KOF, and I haven't found HD/Neomax combos to be a broken mechanic. Then again, I suck at the game though :(
  • J.DJ.D Fortune favors the prepared... Joined: Posts: 4,321 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was going to take this seriously until I noticed that the OP barely picked up the game in May, and already think he knows enough about the game to give a valid critic of its system :coffee:
    Everything you posted exposes how much you suck at the game. Learn it first, and then come tell us what you think.
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  • Hatred EdgeHatred Edge HERE TO PHUK YOUR WORLD UP Joined: Posts: 12,531 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You're a Marvel player though, so I can see why you'd like them because they cater more to the type of game you play. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but has there been a KoF game that's come before that's had a mechanic like this?
    KOF 2002/2002UM.
    Another thing too: I could see the point if the game had atrocious balance and certain characters NEEDED a mechanic like this to be able to compete, but by all accounts, KoFXIII is pretty well balanced and most characters can stand up to each other without needing something like this to win.
    I always said OG98 despite it's flaws had a certain charm to it. That charm was the fighting without CCs and such. My gripe with CCs is that usually characters end up doing worse damage because CCs become the most powerful combos in the game. Honestly I would have liked to see a modern KOF without HD combos at all. Just keep the drive cancels and EX moves.

    Neomax's are a pain in the ass(shout outs to Mai and Kyo) but them I'm okay with because you don't get it only from being hit. It's a properly done Ultra system. They don't ruin the game but in a way they are the worst part of the game. What I do like is that it's not too hard for everyone to land HDs and use their NM.
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  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    They're a comeback mechanic in a way, albeit one that takes a bit of skill, but you could outplay your opponent and still get tagged once with an HD/Max combo and lose just like you can with an Ultra in SF4.

    "A bit of skill" is a bit dismissive when comparing double qcf ultras in SF4 to an HD combo that that can multiples of that along with all the cancels required to extend the combo. It isn't like the game does it for you.
    And in a sense, HD/Max combos ARE a comeback mechanic. Granted one you have to purposely save meter for, that you don't get for free, and that takes some skill, but again, you could be down to your last character with little to no life left, against your opponent's last (but fresh) character, and rather than having to win your way out with footsies, combos, etc, you can just fish for a hit-confirm for big (ToD) damage and win. I think that dumbs the game down to a certain degree even if it DOES take skill and planning to execute.

    I guess that's fair, but then again the character has a full life bar, and they really should do whatever it takes to win.

    It sounds like you wish you were playing a different game, honestly.
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  • Hyun SaiHyun Sai Joined: Posts: 360
    It's a pretty balanced mechanic. If you drop the combo you lose big ressource, if you succeed it's only one character out of three, and if it's not their last, you just gave them all the meter to fight back while you are somewhat empty.
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero I will play Mai game. Joined: Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭
    I find HD/Max combos to be fun. And, tricky. This is also part of the reason I enjoy KOF 2002 so much as well because it is the same idea (KOF XIII is a "easier" variant though, but still leaves people room to work). HD/Max combos are a nice game mechanic to me, because it also influences the characters potential more so than it would for their regular state - giving you opportunities to customize your characters combo potential. The drive system (should the drive meter be used individual without Neo Max) reinforces this as well, since you are cancelling specials moves into special moves (or supers). Best of all, using it is an optional choice if your HD meter is already full. You can technically get away with any kind of game play but would behoove others to under the mechanic of KOF first (rolls, short hops, super hops, option select throws/throw techs, Guard cancel series, etc...). The only thing the HD does is add more innovation to the players cause. While HD/Max is easy to use, it is tough to master and it will take a good amount of skill to hit confirm and combo/juggle while using Neo Max. It is probably a good way of giving the players extra options that may revolve around mix-ups, mind-games, finishing the match, a some sort of maneuver.
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  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was going to take this seriously until I noticed that the OP barely picked up the game in May, and already think he knows enough about the game to give a valid critic of its system :coffee:
    Everything you posted exposes how much you suck at the game. Learn it first, and then come tell us what you think.

    Point to the part of any post I made where I said I was amazing at the game. I've been playing a lot and against some excellent players. I'm still learning, but I've played enough to have a grasp on the system and give a thought out reason why I dislike one aspect of it. Depending on the game, if you have to play a game for more than a few months to have at least a decent grasp on the game's system, maybe you need to go back to Head Start. :coffee:

    Here's an idea. Instead of posting a bullshit reply like the one you did, why not make like, oh, EVERYONE ELSE in this thread and post something constructive. Tell me why do you think I'm wrong instead of "Hahahaa u suk @gayme."
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  • J.DJ.D Fortune favors the prepared... Joined: Posts: 4,321 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Depending on the game, if you have to play a game for more than a few months to have at least a decent grasp on the game's system, maybe you need to go back to Head Start.

    Its because of quotes like this that I can't take you seriously.
    So you're saying that you can play Third Strike or CVS2 for 3 months, and already know enough about their systems to have a valid opinion about them?
    The KOF learning curve takes just as much time as these games.

    Learn the game......
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  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "A bit of skill" is a bit dismissive when comparing double qcf ultras in SF4 to an HD combo that that can multiples of that along with all the cancels required to extend the combo. It isn't like the game does it for you.

    I guess that's fair, but then again the character has a full life bar, and they really should do whatever it takes to win.

    It sounds like you wish you were playing a different game, honestly.

    No, I understand that the game doesn't do it for you . But it SHOULD take SOME skill for how much life they take away. And you can do a paired down version of the combo that's much easier and still take away 3/4 life.

    Actually as I said in my OP, I love pretty much everything else about this game except those.
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭
    Custom Combo like systems are always a point of contention in any game they're in.

    Not surprised people don't like KoFXIII's, which I think is the best CC system I've experienced yet.

    If SNK decided to make them run out faster or spend a bigger chunk when drive canceling during HD mode so the duration is shorter, I wouldn't complain.
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  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Its because of quotes like this that I can't take you seriously.
    So you're saying that you can play Third Strike or CVS2 for 3 months, and already know enough about their systems to have a valid opinion about them?
    The KOF learning curve takes just as much time as these games.

    Learn the game......

    I did just that with Third Strike. It's my main game and I dove in a learned as much about it as I could. Because that's what you do with things you want to learn about, or at least that's what I do. If you play enough and read enough, it should take you a couple weeks to at least understand what everything does on a basic level. Do I have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the game yet? No, but I understand how it works well enough to be able to work with it and discuss it. I'm starting to think we're talking about two different things though, so I'm not gonna keep doing this with you.

    I am learning. And I'll keep learning, because I really like the game. I just don't like one aspect of it. Don't be butthurt because you don't agree with me and can't (or won't) say why. You've yet to post anything other than "you suck."
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero I will play Mai game. Joined: Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭
    I see. You could just probably use HD combos for practical purposes such simply hit confirming into a DM and then Max Cancelling - you can still do damage this way. Others may prefer to make use of the HD mode time limit as much as possible to prevent the opponent from moving. You can get away with a lot with the HD mode... you just have to learn the little tricks to it. Should you go to a tournament, just simply do what you can to win - HD combos is an extra mechanic that can be tough to use and should the player mess up, you can capitalize on that. Just be patient. You could easily end up doing them in a few days period of time! But, there are others ways to fight like a champ, though, so just keep working at it overtime. Practice mode and friend matches are your best tools should you wish to get better.
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  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    No, I understand that the game doesn't do it for you . But it SHOULD take SOME skill for how much life they take away.

    *sigh* I really don't want to bite this one, but I have to.

    You just said the game doesn't do it for you (like with a SFUltra) that means it takes some skill, even more than some skill to do it.
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  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Custom Combo like systems are always a point of contention in any game they're in.

    Not surprised people don't like KoFXIII's, which I think is the best CC system I've experienced yet.

    If SNK decided to make them run out faster or spend a bigger chunk when drive canceling during HD mode so the duration is shorter, I wouldn't complain.

    Agreed. I like that they add a degree of customization to the game and I think it's not so much the HD portion of the combos but rather the NeoMax cancel part. That's usually where the bulk of the damage comes from and if they cut back the damage they do in the HD combo it wouldn't be such a problem in my eyes. The Max Cancel part of the combo isn't really even the hard part of it really, but it nets the most damage.
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  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭


    As hype as that video/moment is, that payoff is a bit high imo.
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  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    *sigh* I really don't want to bite this one, but I have to.

    You just said the game doesn't do it for you (like with a SFUltra) that means it takes some skill, even more than some skill to do it.

    Well, in all fairness, you don't land an Ultra just because you input the command, but we're talking about 100% combos in some cases here. What dev in their right mind would add 1-button 100% combos to their game? I'm saying that for the reward you get (a potentially one-combo KO) the combos SHOULD be hard to do. But just because they're hard to do, does that mean the mechanic improves the game? That's the overall question I'm asking.
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • SaitsuSaitsu Keys Anyone? Joined: Posts: 18,379 ✭✭✭✭✭


    As hype as that video/moment is, that payoff is a bit high imo.

    Yeah, so high as he had to have 4 meters, and the luck of the opponent not having one by the time he guard breaks him. Yeah...so high...
    GT: TrinityRagnarok: Dead End
    FC: 0490-4604-8179 UMvC3: Thor/Doom/Ammy
    SFxT: Cammy/Paul, Lars/Nina, Rolento/Lili
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  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    snip

    As hype as that video/moment is, that payoff is a bit high imo.

    That's Shen for ya, and Mr. K isn't exactly low tier either.
    Well, in all fairness, you don't land an Ultra just because you input the command, but we're talking about 100% combos in some cases here. What dev in their right mind would add 1-button 100% combos to their game? I'm saying that for the reward you get (a potentially one-combo KO) the combos SHOULD be hard to do. But just because they're hard to do, does that mean the mechanic improves the game? That's the overall question I'm asking.

    Ok, I feel like we're getting to the crux of the matter now.

    Personally, I think it improves the game, because it gives you more options, I could care less about the damage output, but let's face it, there would be no purpose if HD combos didn't have a larger damage output.
    Yeah, so high as he had to have 4 meters, and the luck of the opponent not having one by the time he guard breaks him. Yeah...so high...



    Saitsu brings up a valid point, HD combos aren't exactly BNB's they are much more situtional as I think he is trying to convey.
    Insanity is freedom
    The moment I fell in love with specs- "I believe in the Beyblader philosophy, for I am one who Beyblades."
    Shaft's posts are canon.
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭


    As hype as that video/moment is, that payoff is a bit high imo.

    Wow...that was just....O_o
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • SaitsuSaitsu Keys Anyone? Joined: Posts: 18,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was just referring to that video. The fact is, without the 4 meters, and the opponent lacking one, that doesn't happen. That particular moment was situational (which helped the hype).

    Are HD's a good thing for the game? Meh, who knows? I prefer to deal in facts that we know, and the fact is the game with HD's is a great game that is still being unlocked.

    But again, I'm always one for experimentation. If people say a game might be better without something, then play it without that something to prove whether it's the case or not.
    GT: TrinityRagnarok: Dead End
    FC: 0490-4604-8179 UMvC3: Thor/Doom/Ammy
    SFxT: Cammy/Paul, Lars/Nina, Rolento/Lili
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  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    Wow...that was just....o_O

    Incredible, because he knew what he was doing, the whole time. I've seen a video of Luis Cha's Andy doing guardbreak blockstrings into COMBOS

    That shit is awesome.
    Insanity is freedom
    The moment I fell in love with specs- "I believe in the Beyblader philosophy, for I am one who Beyblades."
    Shaft's posts are canon.
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, so high as he had to have 4 meters, and the luck of the opponent not having one by the time he guard breaks him. Yeah...so high...
    I understand the situation and conditions. I would do it if the opportunity presented itself.

    Again I'm just saying I wouldn't complain if they changed it.
    "You are all just as bad as the people you hate. You're only interested in characters based on tears." - Since1717
    NO STREAM = DEAD GAME
    PSN: X_the_Genius | GGPO: Mr X | Skype: MisterEcks
  • SaitsuSaitsu Keys Anyone? Joined: Posts: 18,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I understand the situation and conditions. I would do it if the opportunity presented itself.

    Again I'm just saying I wouldn't complain if they changed it.

    You still haven't explained how the hell in that situation the payoff is high? Just because of a guard break that could've been easily avoided?
    GT: TrinityRagnarok: Dead End
    FC: 0490-4604-8179 UMvC3: Thor/Doom/Ammy
    SFxT: Cammy/Paul, Lars/Nina, Rolento/Lili
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  • HexadecimalHexadecimal Joined: Posts: 45
  • NickRocksNickRocks On the west side I'm screaming FUCK KD Joined: Posts: 14,830 ✭✭✭✭✭
    DAMN SHEN IS SO COOL LOOKING

    I HAVE TO GET THIS GAME AGAIN SOON
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, so high as he had to have 4 meters, and the luck of the opponent not having one by the time he guard breaks him. Yeah...so high...

    Shen doesn't really need any meter to be effective though. If he's in 2nd or 3rd position, depending on the character that came before, he can just stockpile meter. Him having 4 bars of meter isn't particularly amazing. But even if SS had had a bar, he was so busy defending himself, there's no guarantee he would have been able to turn it around anyway.

    Ok, I feel like we're getting to the crux of the matter now.

    Personally, I think it improves the game, because it gives you more options, I could care less about the damage output, but let's face it, there would be no purpose if HD combos didn't have a larger damage output.

    True. Like I said in an earlier post, I guess it's not so much the HD combos themselves that I think are problematic, it's when they lead to NeoMax Cancels (but let's face it, an NMC one of the main reasons to do an HD combo in the first place.)

    Saitsu brings up a valid point, HD combos aren't exactly BNB's they are much more situtional as I think he is trying to convey.

    No, they aren't BnB's, but the situation is a potential 100% combo off a hit-confirm (or just a guard crush like in the video Mr.X posted.) What would a game like 3rd Strike be like if you could get 100% damage off something like a low Forward?
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You still haven't explained how the hell in that situation the payoff is high? Just because of a guard break that could've been easily avoided?

    How could he have avoided the guard break?
    shitty thread is shitty

    How's your 3 days on SRK been treating you? ;)
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • SaitsuSaitsu Keys Anyone? Joined: Posts: 18,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shen doesn't really need any meter to be effective though. If he's in 2nd or 3rd position, depending on the character that came before, he can just stockpile meter. Him having 4 bars of meter isn't particularly amazing. But even if SS had had a bar, he was so busy defending himself, there's no guarantee he would have been able to turn it around anyway.

    Uh huh... Again, Shen's Guard Break all hinges on Karate not having a single meter.

    *Shen goes to do guardbreak with 4 meters* *Mr. Karate with one is able to GCR out and punish decently* *Shen has no HD*

    Shen still has advantage, but no more advantage than he would have in any other KOF game.

    But you know what's missing most from that video? The context. Context is everything. If I had a guess, since I didn't watch that entire match, I'd say the Karate player was playing behind most of the match and had to burn the meter on his opponent's second character. So in other words, his situation was caused by him falling behind early. So in other words...the same problem you'd have in any other KOF game... By burning everything to catchup, it gave the opponent the resources to easily put him away.
    GT: TrinityRagnarok: Dead End
    FC: 0490-4604-8179 UMvC3: Thor/Doom/Ammy
    SFxT: Cammy/Paul, Lars/Nina, Rolento/Lili
    Injustice: Nightwing
  • HexadecimalHexadecimal Joined: Posts: 45
    How's your 3 days on SRK been treating you? ;)

    nice rebuttal brah, to bad that with your 4 years old account you cant still grasp how fighting game works
  • Mr. UnbrockableMr. Unbrockable I like Thomas the Tank Engine Joined: Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭✭
    Just go play something else OP. Cause I hate X-factor but you know what I did? Stopped playing marvel 3. And Im happy and the people who still like marvel are happy so everybody wins.
    Rattle Rattle thunder clatter boom boom boom
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Uh huh... Again, Shen's Guard Break all hinges on Karate not having a single meter.

    *Shen goes to do guardbreak with 4 meters* *Mr. Karate with one is able to GCR out and punish decently* *Shen has no HD*

    Shen still has advantage, but no more advantage than he would have in any other KOF game.

    But you know what's missing most from that video? The context. Context is everything. If I had a guess, since I didn't watch that entire match, I'd say the Karate player was playing behind most of the match and had to burn the meter on his opponent's second character. So in other words, his situation was caused by him falling behind early. So in other words...the same problem you'd have in any other KOF game... By burning everything to catchup, it gave the opponent the resources to easily put him away.

    The Karate player didn't have the meter to do a GCR until he was already guard crushed, at which time, it would have been a moot point, unless you can do a GCR while in the midst of being combo-ed.

    I agree with the context comment though. Coming into the final round with no meter generally means you've had to burn it out of desperation.
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just go play something else OP. Cause I hate X-factor but you know what I did? Stopped playing marvel 3. And Im happy and the people who still like marvel are happy so everybody wins.

    Like I've said a few times in this very thread, I love the game. Except for this one aspect, which, while I dislike it, isn't enough for me to want to quit the game. I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who feels the same way, and apparently I'm not. It's discussion. *shrug*
    nice rebuttal brah, to bad that with your 4 years old account you cant still grasp how fighting game works

    Don't you have racist comments to be posting on YouTube right now?
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    DAMN SHEN IS SO COOL LOOKING

    I SHOULD HAVE NEVER SOLD THIS GAME IN THE FIRST PLACE

    Fixed. 8-)
    Insanity is freedom
    The moment I fell in love with specs- "I believe in the Beyblader philosophy, for I am one who Beyblades."
    Shaft's posts are canon.
  • SaitsuSaitsu Keys Anyone? Joined: Posts: 18,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Karate player didn't have the meter to do a GCR until he was already guard crushed, at which time, it would have been a moot point, unless you can do a GCR while in the midst of being combo-ed.

    I agree with the context comment though. Coming into the final round with no meter generally means you've had to burn it out of desperation.

    ...You have bad reading comprehension skills. The first sentence, it all comes down to Karate not having the meter, which in most cases he would that late in a match.

    As you noticed with the second part, it all came down to the likelihood of him burning it all earlier in order to get back into the match. Falling behind early is usually something that gets you wrecked in KOF, it was like that before, it hasn't changed now. The only thing that changed are the approaches to said situations.

    And of course you're not the only one who feels that way, because there's not an opinion in the world that isn't shared by someone else. That doesn't prove anything.
    GT: TrinityRagnarok: Dead End
    FC: 0490-4604-8179 UMvC3: Thor/Doom/Ammy
    SFxT: Cammy/Paul, Lars/Nina, Rolento/Lili
    Injustice: Nightwing
  • HavatchuHavatchu Joined: Posts: 4,734
    True. Like I said in an earlier post, I guess it's not so much the HD combos themselves that I think are problematic, it's when they lead to NeoMax Cancels (but let's face it, an NMC one of the main reasons to do an HD combo in the first place.)

    Believe it or not 4 and 5 bar HD combos do significantly more damage than simply going into NeoMax, and sometimes even Max Cancels, that's the beauty of KOF.
    Insanity is freedom
    The moment I fell in love with specs- "I believe in the Beyblader philosophy, for I am one who Beyblades."
    Shaft's posts are canon.
  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭
    You still haven't explained how the hell in that situation the payoff is high? Just because of a guard break that could've been easily avoided?
    Getting a 90% damage 6 hit combo from a guard break seems extreme when damage seems so low on stray hits and no meter bnbs in comparison. Say whatever you want about not holding onto 1 meter just in case, I'll agree. Not going to change I think the payoff Shen got was too high.

    Can't say I'm a fan of a "Open you up 3 times, get 50%, hit me once, 80-100%" that HD introduces. Seems like conflicting design when you have back and forth gameplay and then include CCs which always ruin that flow. This is what happens when you add something like CCs though so whatever.

    This happened off someone choosing to block actually, which just reminds me why I'm not a fan of guard bars on principle (no, I wouldn't take them out or think KoF would be better with no guard bars).

    I wouldn't complain if they decided to nerf HD mode. I really enjoy playing KoF but if someone asked me how to improve it, HD is at the top of my list.
    "You are all just as bad as the people you hate. You're only interested in characters based on tears." - Since1717
    NO STREAM = DEAD GAME
    PSN: X_the_Genius | GGPO: Mr X | Skype: MisterEcks
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Big Member Joined: Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...You have bad reading comprehension skills. The first sentence, it all comes down to Karate not having the meter, which in most cases he would that late in a match.

    As you noticed with the second part, it all came down to the likelihood of him burning it all earlier in order to get back into the match. Falling behind early is usually something that gets you wrecked in KOF, it was like that before, it hasn't changed now. The only thing that changed are the approaches to said situations.

    No, the problem is, you post things and expect everyone else to connect the dots that you yourself haven't connected in a coherent way. I agree with the context thing and until we see the rest of the match, we can't know for sure what led to the Karate player having no meter there at the end. So as of right now, your argument is the equivalent of saying, "Well, if he didn't let himself get hit, he wouldn't have lost." Saying the guard crush was "easily avoided" and playing theory fighter to explain how it could have happened when we have a video of the event is a non-sequitur.

    Did he have the meter to GCR there at the end? No? Then, no, that guard crush couldn't have been "easily avoided."

    And of course you're not the only one who feels that way, because there's not an opinion in the world that isn't shared by someone else. That doesn't prove anything.

    Thank you Captain Obvious, can I be your sidekick, "No-Shit Boy?" :P
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • HexadecimalHexadecimal Joined: Posts: 45
    Don't you have racist comments to be posting on YouTube right now?
    ok, now this one has me cracking up
    seriously man wtf?
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
  • SaitsuSaitsu Keys Anyone? Joined: Posts: 18,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, the problem is, you post things and expect everyone else to connect the dots that you yourself haven't connected in a coherent way. I agree with the context thing and until we see the rest of the match, we can't know for sure what led to the Karate player having no meter there at the end. But as of right now, your argument is the equivalent of saying, "Well, if he didn't let himself get hit, he wouldn't have lost."




    Thank you Captain Obvious, can I be your sidekick, "No-Shit Boy?" :P

    ...How the hell was that not coherent. First sentence, I mention Shen's Guard Break relies on Karate not having a meter. I go on to a scenario stating what happens with Karate has said meter. If people can't follow those dots, then real talk, they should go back to remedial English Courses.

    Secondly, that's honestly the truth, if he didn't let himself get hit, he wouldn't have lost. But again, that requires context of the earlier match. Mostly, he had to avoid getting touched just to get enough for a meter (or enough so when the opponent does touch him, he builds it in time), but it's tough, I realize that.

    But I'll say it again, if you think the game would be better without it, then prove it. Get everyone together and play the game without it. No matter if it's better or not, at least you'll know rather than coming on to SRK and ranting with people who would give you shit like myself.
    GT: TrinityRagnarok: Dead End
    FC: 0490-4604-8179 UMvC3: Thor/Doom/Ammy
    SFxT: Cammy/Paul, Lars/Nina, Rolento/Lili
    Injustice: Nightwing
«13
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