SFXT 'Problems'

GuyMcPersonGuyMcPerson Joined: Posts: 662
So, as I'm sure we've all noticed and some have pointed out, SFXT has gotten a strong bandwagon backlash, and I feel so many of the 'facts' about this game are just misconceptions. I think we can all agree there ARE problems, but every game has problems. I know some trolls are gonna say "herp derp it's godawful and everyone who plays it are retards, I provide no real reasons but if enough of us scream the same baseless junk, it'll be come accepted as fact." I'd like everyone who feels positively or negatively to post what you think is wrong or good about it, as long as it's well thought-out.

Now here's some of the things first that I DO think is wrong with it.

- Universal walk speed so slow.
Especially guilty on the Tekken characters. Some Street fighter characters carried over with great walk speed, like Akuma, Cammy, etc. But so many of the Tekken characters have Makoto-esque walk speeds and it annoys me. I feel like it was designed to be a fast-paced game but this just works against that.

The best change on this would be universally buff everyone's walk speed who doesn't have a decent one to begin with. I know this would be a pretty big change but I think it could help.

- Gems
Yeah, I think we all agree gems are stupid. It would be a novel idea if it wasn't basically a rip-off of the League of Legends rune system, except in that game it fundamentally works because it's online-only with a consistent profile; you don't have to dick around and select them on different consoles.

Another problem with that is obviously the money. Runes in LoL are one of the few things that CANNOT be purchased with real money, you have to earn them. They also don't do anything silly like make you auto-flash when getting ganked or do pings on the map when an enemy is approaching.

That being said, since most tourney rules consist of no gems, I don't see it being a huge factor. Yeah, it's stupid online when people just auto-tech and garbage but who considers online play the pinnacle of fair competition anyways?

- Anti-airs are inconsistent
I feel a lot of us are frustrated about anti-airs, and I agree on this one. The problem is a lot of characters have garbage anti-airs that trade or get stuffed frequently, yet a few have godlike anti-airs like Juri, Lili, etc. It makes jumping too strong which is annoying, and because of the tendency of anti-airs to trade or get stuffed, most people just end up blocking and taking whatever mixup afterwards.

I feel a decent change to this would be to buff everyone's anti-airs who need it, BUT take away the counter-hit into juggle. This would make playing patiently a little more rewarding I think, but not cause every punished-jump in to lead to huge combos. I get this would take one of the unique flavors away from the game, but there are still air to air counter hit juggles which I'm fine with.

Glitches -
Yeah, they suck. No excuse, get your shit together capcom. Had the rolento freeze glitch happen to me in a tourney match when I was in a big lead. zzz

Cross Tatsus/Annoying character specific junk -
Yeah, there are a lot of annoying things in the game. This comes down to balance and capcom already showed some of these things getting nerfed. To be fair, there's stupid annoying junk in SF4 too, like stupid Seth mixups, Vortexes, etc.
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Comments

  • GuyMcPersonGuyMcPerson Joined: Posts: 662
    Now here's some of the misconceptions about what is wrong this game that I think all have clear answers to:

    - Walking jab pressure
    Yeah, this is one of the big things I hear about. And coincidentally, one of the things I notice universally about people who say this is they never mention alpha counters. Alpha counter-tag ins are amazing against reckless pressure, among them being standing jabs; I get around 440 damage off any alpha counter, tag-in; that's more than a raw super. Yeah, alpha counters require some timing, but good.

    People imo waste too much meter on stupid things like fancy tag-in combos that aren't optimized at all. Even worse when they do it off ABC launcher, which means a combo is already heavily scaled. When you learn to conserve your meter, your defense can become scary. I also have a pretty easy time just mashing backdashes out of them.

    - Cross Rush
    Me, I don't have a problem with these. The ONLY thing I hate about these is someone like Vega who can ABC from so far away, but aside from that, what's the big deal? They are easy, but poorly optimized chains that scale your incoming combo. They are very unsafe if someone just lets it rock instead of confirming it, and if they DO confirm that's even more scaling.

    The good thing about it is that it gives some characters with other-wise poor options some decent punishers, as well as making option selects impractical. Maybe you love option selects, personally I think any fighting game should be about making good reads and less about guessing games or doing rock paper scissors when you get to play both paper and rock.

    - Forward Rolls
    Personally, I like the idea because it effectively shuts vortexes down. Like I said, I think a good fighting game should be about making good reads and playing smart, not guessing games. If you read a forward roll, you can set up incredible ambiguous jump-ins among other things.

    I feel this is good for characters who were free on wakeup. I can see some argue that with some characters who have amazing offense, this should be their downfall, but I dunno. A lot of characters who DON'T have amazing offense also have garbage on wakeup and it stops that.

    - Time
    So, I've mixed feelings on this one. Personally, I almost NEVER have timeouts, and it's not like I play some hyper-aggressive team either. I mean, I play Jin and Ogre (pretty lame team) but I feel like people are playing too lame in general. People aren't countering things like endless block-strings, doing Guile vs Ryu matches just throwing fireballs or whatever, but I hardly ever get timeouts.

    I understand it's a 'mileage may vary' thing, but I dunno. A simple solution would be to make every second slightly longer. I don't play marvel so I never noticed until recently that every second seems to be like 2 seconds in reality, so maybe this would work. Giving characters things like better walkspeed and anti-airs would definitely help too.

    - Links too easy

    I can't speak for every character, but the ones I play have some trickier links. That being said, I don't think fighting games should be about 1 frame links (even though I main and secondary two characters in SF4 who have 1 frame links) but about who can make better reads. Combos should be about capitalizing on opportunities when your opponent stops paying attention or you made a good read, not to show off your sf-dick on combos.

    I mean, a majority of juggle combos in real Tekken (aside from ewgf juggles) are piss easy, but nobody complains about it because having incredibly tight links and tough flashy combos aren't what make the game.

    - Pandora is weak
    I really don't care. I would MUCH prefer a comeback mechanic to be too weak rather than too strong. It's satisfying to know that when I have a dominant lead, they can't do some random bullshit that isn't risky and have a huge comeback. We don't need any X-factor or random dp's fadc'd into ultra imo.

    It could use a tiny buff, sure, but in the broad view i'd rather keep it close to how it is. It really is a true hail mary, an actual desperation move, and it should stay that way.



    Anyways, I'm sure there are more but let me know what you guys think. I think the game has had no time to evolve, with so many mechanics that nobody is using and people are getting frustrated trying to play it like street fighter x marvel. If you don't like the game, that's completely fine. Some may not like the pace, certain core mechanics or whatever. But it just annoys me when people talk about things that are not true or easily countered. If you agree or disagree, or have some actual points to bring up then that would be JUST SWELL.
  • GraphfGraphf Amat Victoria Curam Joined: Posts: 1,206
    I traded my copy of them game in. Concentrate on Marvel and AE, between those games, hype and fundamentals are taken care of. What else is there?
    Monster Hunter
  • NegativeEdgeNegativeEdge Not a G Joined: Posts: 152
    I traded my copy of them game in. Concentrate on Marvel and AE, between those games, hype and fundamentals are taken care of. What else is there?
    I like SFxT best of all fighters out right now....

    1)better footsies and no focus system(which I never liked),
    2)better damage,
    3)more options because of tags and team synergy,
    4)more options on how to use METER - giving advantage to smart players that manage and use it best,
    5)better wakeup options(less guessing on wakeup and more fighting/footsies),
    6)less throw centric,
    7)less dropping 1 frame links(even top 8 players at evo have done it repeatedly),
    8)awesome uses for cross arts and supers, much easier to combo into big damage.
    9)more chances to win when you manage your 2 health bars/grey life recovery better than opp.
    10)more resources available(2 healthbars, grey life, 2nd character/moveset)
    11)no wakeup/comeback ultras(supers but meter is too valuable)
    12)less bad matchups/more matchup independent(you have a partner to compliment your weakness and counter with) - if used correctly self balancing and equalizing.

    Last but not least Gems, yes gems(NOT assist gems but they are taking care of them) are yet more options for you to fit the game better to how you play it. - You can buff a glass jaw yourself if you want to play riskier, or you can collect more meter if you like to switch tag and preserve grey health more.

    You can use a character with crap AA in xT without it killing you, why? because you can back him up with a character that has awesome AA.

    More options = The SMARTER player wins more often in xT.

    AE is still OK, but more boring - knockdown = guess fest, bad matchups, one dimensional, throw heavy, and just plain played out in comparison.
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,925
    I'll hit a couple of these...

    On Time Outs - I agree, as I usually only end up with time-outs when I'm using a team I'm unfamiliar with (thus nothing's optimized) so I'm not getting the best damage options. But when using a team I'm comfortable with, it doesn't happen too often. Then again, I'm perfectly fine with time outs since I tend to play Juri lame unless given a reason to go in (any time I start a round playing Juri super-aggressive, I'm doing it wrong).

    There could be some help to this issue for the general public though, and I still maintain that the best option is stopping time for super/team super animations, since some of these can take up to 10-15 seconds off the clock and skew timer scams in favor of someone with an absurdly long super.

    On Rolls - I love 'em as they are. If there were to be one change that I'd meet half-way on, I'd say make them throw-able, but that's it, at best.

    On Grey Health - I think the recovery speed is too fast on this, and a nerf to that would solve a lot of issues people have with time in the game. I shouldn't be able to fully heal my character during the animation of my team super, for example (though right now it is a very nice trade I try to be conscious of - heal my injured character's grey health and remove my opponent's? YS PLZ).

    On Damage - I think it could be increased - VERY SLIGHTLY - across the board. I don't know if I'd suggest it though, since Capcom would probably go overboard and not balance the damage increase properly. In example... they'd probably increase Hugo's damage but then nerf Poison's damage. :rofl:

    I can't stress enough though that while there is a need for some character balancing overall (it's a Capcom game, there's always a need for some character balancing), the issue to me seems to be more that we're playing it wrong rather than the game being broken.
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  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    So, as I'm sure we've all noticed and some have pointed out, SFXT has gotten a strong bandwagon backlash, and I feel so many of the 'facts' about this game are just misconceptions. I think we can all agree there ARE problems, but every game has problems. I know some trolls are gonna say "herp derp it's godawful and everyone who plays it are retards, I provide no real reasons but if enough of us scream the same baseless junk, it'll be come accepted as fact." I'd like everyone who feels positively or negatively to post what you think is wrong or good about it, as long as it's well thought-out.

    Now here's some of the things first that I DO think is wrong with it.

    - Universal walk speed so slow.
    Especially guilty on the Tekken characters. Some Street fighter characters carried over with great walk speed, like Akuma, Cammy, etc. But so many of the Tekken characters have Makoto-esque walk speeds and it annoys me. I feel like it was designed to be a fast-paced game but this just works against that.

    The best change on this would be universally buff everyone's walk speed who doesn't have a decent one to begin with. I know this would be a pretty big change but I think it could help.

    - Gems
    Yeah, I think we all agree gems are stupid. It would be a novel idea if it wasn't basically a rip-off of the League of Legends rune system, except in that game it fundamentally works because it's online-only with a consistent profile; you don't have to dick around and select them on different consoles.

    Another problem with that is obviously the money. Runes in LoL are one of the few things that CANNOT be purchased with real money, you have to earn them. They also don't do anything silly like make you auto-flash when getting ganked or do pings on the map when an enemy is approaching.

    That being said, since most tourney rules consist of no gems, I don't see it being a huge factor. Yeah, it's stupid online when people just auto-tech and garbage but who considers online play the pinnacle of fair competition anyways?

    - Anti-airs are inconsistent
    I feel a lot of us are frustrated about anti-airs, and I agree on this one. The problem is a lot of characters have garbage anti-airs that trade or get stuffed frequently, yet a few have godlike anti-airs like Juri, Lili, etc. It makes jumping too strong which is annoying, and because of the tendency of anti-airs to trade or get stuffed, most people just end up blocking and taking whatever mixup afterwards.

    I feel a decent change to this would be to buff everyone's anti-airs who need it, BUT take away the counter-hit into juggle. This would make playing patiently a little more rewarding I think, but not cause every punished-jump in to lead to huge combos. I get this would take one of the unique flavors away from the game, but there are still air to air counter hit juggles which I'm fine with.

    Glitches -
    Yeah, they suck. No excuse, get your shit together capcom. Had the rolento freeze glitch happen to me in a tourney match when I was in a big lead. zzz

    Cross Tatsus/Annoying character specific junk -
    Yeah, there are a lot of annoying things in the game. This comes down to balance and capcom already showed some of these things getting nerfed. To be fair, there's stupid annoying junk in SF4 too, like stupid Seth mixups, Vortexes, etc.

    I only skimmed most of this so I won't comment on anything else -- but no. We don't all agree on this. Gems are a first week problem -- the only thing wrong with gems right now is assist gems and those aren't going to be an issue for much longer. The game's entire system is designed around gems and a vast majority of the problems we're dealing with stems from our refusal to use them. There have been several tournaments that have allowed gems to positive effect. I think exploring the characters and invest time into really learning to use gems will have a positive effect on the game -- running away from something Capcom has already states is and will remain a main part of the game is asinine.
    SFxTK: Lars/Kazuya, Bryan/Marduk | P4U: Undecided | BBCS: Valkenhayn
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  • GuyMcPersonGuyMcPerson Joined: Posts: 662
    I only skimmed most of this so I won't comment on anything else -- but no. We don't all agree on this. Gems are a first week problem -- the only thing wrong with gems right now is assist gems and those aren't going to be an issue for much longer. The game's entire system is designed around gems and a vast majority of the problems we're dealing with stems from our refusal to use them. There have been several tournaments that have allowed gems to positive effect. I think exploring the characters and invest time into really learning to use gems will have a positive effect on the game -- running away from something Capcom has already states is and will remain a main part of the game is asinine.

    I can see that. I can give or take gems, I've never really looked into them cause it seems a thing that was universally hated/banned in competitive play so I never bothered doing it. I think it's interesting but I dunno. Sort of like how items are always gonna be a part of smash but are generally turned off in tourney play (inb4 typical 'smash isn't fighting derp')

    I do think almost all of us can agree though that assist gems are whack. I like the idea of other gems allowing different play styles, for instance Ryu getting equipped either for better zoning or offense, but i'd like to see how it pans out.
  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458
    You guys already know my standpoint on Boost Gems and Assist Gems....so with that said...I think it should be noted that people actually want Boost gems in competitive play, however the issue lies in the fact should it be only limited to "standard gems"?
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  • NyoronoruNyoronoru Vocaloid DLC Joined: Posts: 1,647
    They haven't even released the worst of the gems yet, you guys are in for a hell of a ride if Capcom continues their gem release plan.
    Life is too short to waste not trying your best!
  • D_DollarsD_Dollars the BASED ken Joined: Posts: 1,655
    They haven't even released the worst of the gems yet, you guys are in for a hell of a ride if Capcom continues their gem release plan.
    wtf, there's more? it can't get any worse than that ultimate defense gem. that's for damn sure.
    ssf4 ae:ken aka da based ken
    P4U:mitsuru aka da based mitsuru
  • NegativeEdgeNegativeEdge Not a G Joined: Posts: 152
    wtf, there's more? it can't get any worse than that ultimate defense gem. that's for damn sure.

    The rebalance is crushing assist gems, which are one of the few actually bad things that spawned this hatestorm. They wouldnt be THAT bad if they had a timer and activations like other gems, always on makes them horrible.

    They will soon be a thing of the past anyway since cap is hearing us out.
  • The Lone DragonThe Lone Dragon perverted feminist Joined: Posts: 3,854
    After playing several hours of both SFxT and AE on Saturday online, I have come to the conclusion that I really like rolls.

    Getting blown up by ambiguous cross ups just isn't as fun as it used to be. Actually, that was never that fun.
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  • Ben PerkinsBen Perkins Joined: Posts: 6,758
    There's an appalling lack of Q in this game, and I have a problem with that
  • coldviper18coldviper18 The Glove Joined: Posts: 1,106
    Anti airs are my biggest annoyance in this game. With how bad some are it basically makes jumping little to no risk and attempting to anti air is in many cases more a risk than jumping... I sometimes play Jin and his c.hp looks like it'd be a fairly decent anti but most of the time it misses entirely and you eat a giant combo for it. And then you got mr masters that apparently can fly around the stage with tatsu's all day and even characters with good anti airs have difficulty dealing with it.

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  • D_DollarsD_Dollars the BASED ken Joined: Posts: 1,655
    yea, the metagame for this game is wonky. bunch of jump ins because characters lack some of the most fundamental aspects. ken for example, is pretty fucking bad. but for the simple fact he possesses some fundamental tools ( AA's for example ) on top of tatsu, makes him an "solid" character. which speaks volumes on how incomplete a majority of the cast is.
    ssf4 ae:ken aka da based ken
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  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    You guys already know my standpoint on Boost Gems and Assist Gems....so with that said...I think it should be noted that people actually want Boost gems in competitive play, however the issue lies in the fact should it be only limited to "standard gems"?

    There shouldn't actually need to be a limit after the patch -- from the sound of it they are making assist gems incredibly detrimental.
    SFxTK: Lars/Kazuya, Bryan/Marduk | P4U: Undecided | BBCS: Valkenhayn
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  • awkwardscrubawkwardscrub Headbutt? Headbutt. Joined: Posts: 227
    There's an appalling lack of Q in this game, and I have a problem with that

    Q with tag partner Makoto. Because...um...story. Who cares. They want a damn evil magic aggression box lolFIGHT.

    I am very very curious to see how this patch falls out. Some of the changes sound EXACTLY right (assist gems scaled back, tatsu derpiness reduced).

    I'm worried about the damage/grey health thing though. If damage gets universally boosted AND healing is reduced, playing lame will be rewarded even further in this game. Guile, Akuma, Raven, Ryu, etc all get much better and characters like Hugo, Asuka and Marduk are going to eat infi plasma to the face with no real way to get back in the game. I really don't think damage is a problem in this game - I think the timer makes the damage seem low. I really don't want this to be a game where one punish means KO. Save that stuff for Marvel. I really like the damage level in this game, it's kind of a nice middle ground between the SF4 series and the Marvel series.

    Jab pressure doesn't bother me that much...offline. Maybe it's just bad Canadian internet but alpha counters are unreliable at best for me online. Yes, I'm bad, but I can do them offline with little difficulty. Seeing jabs toned down a bit won't make me sad.
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  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    Q with tag partner Makoto. Because...um...story. Who cares. They want a damn evil magic aggression box lolFIGHT.

    I am very very curious to see how this patch falls out. Some of the changes sound EXACTLY right (assist gems scaled back, tatsu derpiness reduced).

    I'm worried about the damage/grey health thing though. If damage gets universally boosted AND healing is reduced, playing lame will be rewarded even further in this game. Guile, Akuma, Raven, Ryu, etc all get much better and characters like Hugo, Asuka and Marduk are going to eat infi plasma to the face with no real way to get back in the game. I really don't think damage is a problem in this game - I think the timer makes the damage seem low. I really don't want this to be a game where one punish means KO. Save that stuff for Marvel. I really like the damage level in this game, it's kind of a nice middle ground between the SF4 series and the Marvel series.

    Jab pressure doesn't bother me that much...offline. Maybe it's just bad Canadian internet but alpha counters are unreliable at best for me online. Yes, I'm bad, but I can do them offline with little difficulty. Seeing jabs toned down a bit won't make me sad.

    Alpha Counters are unreliable in general against anything other than multihit specials. I don't think the timer has anything to do with the game's damage issues -- I think all of that comes from people not using gems effectively. I think once we start seeing more gem usage a lot of those issues will dissipate.
    SFxTK: Lars/Kazuya, Bryan/Marduk | P4U: Undecided | BBCS: Valkenhayn
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  • ThancruzThancruz Joined: Posts: 2,850
    Alpha Counters are unreliable in general against anything other than multihit specials. I don't think the timer has anything to do with the game's damage issues -- I think all of that comes from people not using gems effectively. I think once we start seeing more gem usage a lot of those issues will dissipate.
    Alpha counters have been my best friend. The damage is fine in this game,L L L LMHH is what is keeping people from using optimized combos, Rufus= dive kick hit confirm L L L LMHH into whatever combo and it looks like they did nothing 2 my health at all

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  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    Alpha counters have been my best friend. The damage is fine in this game,L L L LMHH is what is keeping people from using optimized combos, Rufus= dive kick hit confirm L L L LMHH into whatever combo and it looks like they did nothing 2 my health at all

    -- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums

    I hate those combos, and frankly, I forget they exist. Most of the time if I do HH its by accident, I feel like you should be required to do H+H instead of being able to do HH...

    Alpha Counters, though, haven't been the best to me except in instances where I know they are going to use a multihit special or something similar (like countering Hwo's Dynamite Kick when you know he's going to try and make a string safe). Otherwise, the input can be incredibly annoying, since its very easy to get hit when you're prettying f+H+H at the wrong time.
    SFxTK: Lars/Kazuya, Bryan/Marduk | P4U: Undecided | BBCS: Valkenhayn
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  • NegativeEdgeNegativeEdge Not a G Joined: Posts: 152
    Anti airs are my biggest annoyance in this game. With how bad some are it basically makes jumping little to no risk and attempting to anti air is in many cases more a risk than jumping... I sometimes play Jin and his c.hp looks like it'd be a fairly decent anti but most of the time it misses entirely and you eat a giant combo for it. And then you got mr masters that apparently can fly around the stage with tatsu's all day and even characters with good anti airs have difficulty dealing with it.

    See it as an opportunity, not a negative, jumping is garbage in AE, its nice to have a new option and half decent way to attack in xT.
  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    See it as an opportunity, not a negative, jumping is garbage in AE, its nice to have a new option and half decent and way to attack in xT.

    Jumping is miserable... and I think its ridiculous that 7 out of 10 times it's difficult for most characters to deal with. If jumping is going to be a thing, it needs to be in the form of hops as opposed to spamming j.H randomly -- and for the benefits it affords you, it should be equally risky. Jump ins are powerful in SSF4 too, they are just actually risky for the rewards they afford you as opposed to being mostly free/beneficial even on trade like in SFxTK.
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  • D_DollarsD_Dollars the BASED ken Joined: Posts: 1,655
    See it as an opportunity, not a negative, jumping is garbage in AE, its nice to have a new option and half decent and way to attack in xT.
    jumping is garbage in any half decent sf game. since you know, sf is all about ground game for the most part. hell, jumping isn't free for most 2d fighters. if you need jumping to attack, then your ground game needs work.
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  • NegativeEdgeNegativeEdge Not a G Joined: Posts: 152
    No one should NEED jumping to attack, but its not a measure of desperation in xT and that is something I like about it since any character has the ability.

    It also reduces the op-ness of DIVE KICK, since AE dive kick >>>> jumping wheras in xT dive kick is still good but not AS good since jumps are buffed.
  • Dr. GrammarDr. Grammar Fighting Game Scientist Joined: Posts: 1,726
    I only skimmed most of this so I won't comment on anything else -- but no. We don't all agree on this. Gems are a first week problem -- the only thing wrong with gems right now is assist gems and those aren't going to be an issue for much longer. The game's entire system is designed around gems and a vast majority of the problems we're dealing with stems from our refusal to use them. There have been several tournaments that have allowed gems to positive effect. I think exploring the characters and invest time into really learning to use gems will have a positive effect on the game -- running away from something Capcom has already states is and will remain a main part of the game is asinine.
    What problems do you think stem from our refusal to use the gems? I think gems are bad for the game for a multitude of reasons:
    1. They allow you to make selections that are hidden from your opponent.
    2. The effects are often either too minor to be useful or extremely rewarding for easy activation conditions, and very few of the effects are actually interesting.
    3. They seem to do nothing for game balance, as the high tier characters can take advantage of them just as well as the low tier characters.
    4. Selecting them wastes time.
    5. They're intimidating to new players because of the insane number of options.
    6. They're ugly.
    7. Some of them even cost money.
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  • NegativeEdgeNegativeEdge Not a G Joined: Posts: 152
    They can help balance the way YOU personally play if you think about it enough, like I said you can buff an aspect of your game that another person might not want to, or you can setup a "battery" character scenario based off gems, depending on how you choose to use your team. No one likes the fact that you have to pay for some though.

    BOOST gems are fun to customize with.

    Refusal to see that point of view creates a general bad stigma people think gems bad = sfxt bad.

    Again more options = smarter player gains advantage since you know how YOU play more than your opponent.
  • YuriwaYuriwa I've got time. You up for a rematch? Joined: Posts: 97
    jumping is garbage in any half decent sf game. since you know, sf is all about ground game for the most part. hell, jumping isn't free for most 2d fighters. if you need jumping to attack, then your ground game needs work.
    He's addressing the notion that jump-in attacks are so hard to punish in this game. Risky in previous SF titles as they may be, it's harder to reliably anti-air in this game, and that's what matters in this discussion. You've invented your own discussion in which your opponent is someone whose ground game sucks and "needs" to jump to get any offense started. But actually that isn't the case at all. And in this game, you'd be a fool not to take advantage of its inherent strengths, as you would be in any other game.
  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    What problems do you think stem from our refusal to use the gems? I think gems are bad for the game for a multitude of reasons:
    1. They allow you to make selections that are hidden from your opponent.
    2. The effects are often either too minor to be useful or extremely rewarding for easy activation conditions, and very few of the effects are actually interesting.
    3. They seem to do nothing for game balance, as the high tier characters can take advantage of them just as well as the low tier characters.
    4. Selecting them wastes time.
    5. They're intimidating to new players because of the insane number of options.
    6. They're ugly.
    7. Some of them even cost money.


    I crossed out the subjective/irrelevant/wrong points (selecting gems takes less time than a Marvel 3 button check... if you watch tournaments that use them, it takes a few seconds and its a total nonissue, everyone just thinks otherwise because they refuse to even give it a try) and I'll address the significant ones.

    The game is balanced around gems, there are many things possible with them that aren't possible without them and the entire framework of how you look at the game begins to change when you incorporate their effects. The initial sets of gems were meant to be beginner gems to demonstrate possibilities within the way the system works and to get people thinking about them on a basic level -- and as more gem packs were released the effects and usefulness of those gems expanded. Of course the activation requirements seem small, that's because many of them (say meter building or damage gems) are meant to be used within combos to increase the effectiveness of a given offensive tactic. Defense and speed gems are meant to help maintain and control a match by augmenting the way the opponent deals damage to you.

    Taking a the simple example of jab pressure -- the entire way you look at jab pressure has to change when you consider the defensive gems. If a gem that cuts damage to event a moderate degree is activated by x number of attacks blocked -- it could be either smart or stupid of a player to use jab pressure, as they could gimp their own damage or force an opponent to use a gem they otherwise would have wanted to save.

    Just generic examples, but the game is designed around using theses gems to diversify game plans, approaches and playstyles. Gems can significantly improve and alter the way a character is played even though they don't change frame data, and the only reason people don't want to believe that is because they refuse to give the system an honest chance and -- much like the game itself -- refuse to open up to and explore the potential that's obviously there.

    Just like you can't say something is great before you try it, you can't say something is bad after using it once and claiming its the worse thing ever. If you could give an accurate critique of something within the first few months of playing with it, Wesker would still be #1 in Ultimate, X-Factor would still be absolutely hated, and the game would be barely played.

    There's obvious potential for either good or bad in the gem system, but we have to honestly explore it before we can write it off one way or another. Since Capcom has said its not going anywhere (but may get rebalanced) we should be exploring whats there so we can at least tell them honestly and with /educated awareness/ what changes need to be made instead of doing nothing followed by complaining that they didn't fix the problem if they make changes blindly.
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  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    No one should NEED jumping to attack, but its not a measure of desperation in xT and that is something I like about it since any character has the ability.

    It also reduces the op-ness of DIVE KICK, since AE dive kick >>>> jumping wheras in xT dive kick is still good but not AS good since jumps are buffed.

    I'd just have preferred a hop system over making jumping attacks free.
    SFxTK: Lars/Kazuya, Bryan/Marduk | P4U: Undecided | BBCS: Valkenhayn
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  • SlayersliceSlayerslice Joined: Posts: 1,666
    I was playing SF4, netcode on SF4 is straight up ass compared to SFxT. 4Bar SF4 vs. 4Bar SFxT, SFxT all day long.
    Input delay is garbage.
    Streetfighter X Tekken: I was raised on Tekken.
  • NyoronoruNyoronoru Vocaloid DLC Joined: Posts: 1,647
    How is paying for better gems or paying for a gem that better suits your team NOT a problem? Explain to me how locking up chess pieces behind a paywall is a good thing and not a problem.
    Life is too short to waste not trying your best!
  • NegativeEdgeNegativeEdge Not a G Joined: Posts: 152
    I was playing SF4, netcode on SF4 is straight up ass compared to SFxT. 4Bar SF4 vs. 4Bar SFxT, SFxT all day long.
    Input delay is garbage.
    Damn, glad im not the only one that noticed that, I went back to SF4 for some net matches and was like whats going on, why arent my moves coming out?

    My lag fix link can really help btw for anyone that doesnt know that.
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,224
    RE: People comparing jumps...

    Jumps in SF4 are powerful as hell. People often talk about how characters have many anti-fireball tools in that game, when in reality the best tool is just to jump. You can't even zone someone like Honda unless you're Sagat or Guile, and even then jumping is still very good. Jumps cover too much ground in AE, thus allowing you to land an attack from a farther distance. Normally having a fireball automatically meant you could keep-away in the old SF's, in AE its much different. Also, neutral jumping is PISS easy in AE. That shit used to take so much precision and timing. I remember when I faced Muteki in HDR as Cammy, the whole round was me timing neutral jumps (and messing up a TON).

    Akuma, Ken, Rose, Dee-Jay, Seth, and others all have fireballs but cannot truly play lame. So yeah, I don't buy that shit that only SFxT has strong jumps. The arcs are the same as in SF4, only difference is the lack of a focus attack means you NEED to jump or block. And that's how it should be, focusing fireballs for free ultra was the most bullshit idea ever.
  • RaidenaveliRaidenaveli Jesus Shuttlesworth Joined: Posts: 130
    Anti Airs- Tatsu-mania can render any anti-air useless in this game it seems. I get hit no matter how I time trying to counter it. -____- I can't speak for other characters but I've got my AA's down with the characters I use(Although that isn't saying much seeing as I use Raven as anchor). I had to drop Chun because my favorite go to AA which is her s.hp was rendered useless because of the odd jump arcs.

    The Timer- I'm really on the fence about. The timer should stop or at least slow down tremendously when super/cross arts are performed. I don't agree with increasing the timer though. It's kinda like boxing, if you got out boxed the entire round with the time allotted then you just lost...plain and simple.

    Pandora- Is just useless.

    Assist Gems- It would have been nice had Capcom made a better Ranked Match Lobby to deal with this sort of thing instead of recycling the one from SF4 minus the ability to create your own ranked lobby. I would suggest making it so that just like when you can see on SF4 the percentage of times your opponent drops from matches, that it does the same for assist gems so you can see the percentage of how much they use assist gems and from there you can make the choice on whether to play them or not.

    Boost Gems- I'm honestly not bothered by these. I barely even bother to activate them to care. They can however be a problem when certain overpowered grapplers get a hold of them to boost their damage. Still though, smarter play and these gems have little to no effect on the outcome of a match. These boost gems aren't enough to balance the game though. If everybody health was the same maybe so but that's not the case. I still see characters that could use buffs *cough* Asuka *Ahem*

    Walking Jab Pressure- This use to be a problem for me but I learned how to alpha counter or back dash, even so, trying to get an alpha counter online can be a headache. Here comes the next JAB! ....OOPS MISS TIMED IT! *LAUNCHER* ....eats combo. I also noticed when I alpha counter and it comes out it can be blocked? Has that ever happened to anybody else?
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  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    How is paying for better gems or paying for a gem that better suits your team NOT a problem? Explain to me how locking up chess pieces behind a paywall is a good thing and not a problem.

    I never said it was a good thing. I just don't fucking care about it.
    Being competitive in anything requires additional micro (loose word) transactions for additional equipment. I had a bow when I was young and not too long ago I was looking into training for Olympic style archery tournaments -- you can buy a bow for like 500 dollars -- then there's like a whole additional 600 or 700 hundred dollars worth of junk you need to invest in. Everything competitive is like that, from music to sports and now, suddenly, everyone's crazy angry because video games are doing it.

    It's a dollar per pack, for what, 5 or 10 packs...? I've paid more for less, and frankly, I prefer my money going toward something with an actual effect as opposed to something useless that may as well not be sold. The day 0.99 DLC becomes a relevant point of anger for me is the day I need to stop spending $2.33 a day for a hot cup of chamomile tea...
    SFxTK: Lars/Kazuya, Bryan/Marduk | P4U: Undecided | BBCS: Valkenhayn
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  • RoGE9RoGE9 Joined: Posts: 1,720
    Increasing the timer would mean games would last til' 3 am in tournaments.
  • NegativeEdgeNegativeEdge Not a G Joined: Posts: 152
    How is paying for better gems or paying for a gem that better suits your team NOT a problem? Explain to me how locking up chess pieces behind a paywall is a good thing and not a problem.

    Everyone agrees that isn't good, but some people are choosing to focus on that one bad choice and reject the game entirely. The pay gems arent always just flat out better, they also have different activation requirements.

    I'd say the difference between a paid and a non paid gem is so small that it would very rarely change outcome of a match considering the customization and amount of other different options/customization the game provides.

    Basically the amount of options and good far outweigh that bad.
  • zhinsezhinse Joined: Posts: 10
    The only problem I've seen with gems so far is that currently there really isn't a way to use your DLC gems on another console it seems like. don't think that using the GEM ID grants you access to them for free.

    The standard set of gems we have so far and how the devs decided to let us 'sample' them with locking them away for half the cast has been interesting. As the player using the Gem set, there are a lot of interesting ways to set up activations, or change your attacks mid combo for max gem usage, etc. Since Gems are secret to the other player, the only thing that other guy can think about is, "holy shit, 3 red Gems are glowing, better play a little safer. " I don't know if its a good thing or a bad thing that players cant predict their opponent's activation requirements.

    At the moment, watching the game as a spectator is not really fun, due to the way people have been playing at high levels on streams. One thing i feel adds to this is that the sense of momentum can be very small in this game because there is a universal way to reset it. Once people's Gems strats, optimized combos, and setups get more detailed I feel it is the Gem activations that will be the thing that the audience will be watching for when it comes to momentum and setting up the 'questions' and 'story' of a match for a spectator.


    On the lists of problems, I don't really know if those are all of them. People who don't like this game seem to be put off by something on another level. I don't think that If Jab pressure disappears, Jump ins Nerf, Time overs gone, is going to make people come back or accept the game all that much. To be honest, to me its seems to be that people aren't seeing Daigo punish every roll attempt or overcoming week 2 strategies on streams.
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,698
    -Less blockstun/frameadvantage on standing far lp attacks.(maybe only certain characters), jab pressure can be dealt with in multiple ways, however i don't want to spend 1-2 bars for a reversal and counters when it can be so easily done again. Backdashing, again giving up space and wasting time. Why should such a scrubby tactic be that "powerfull"
    -Stop timer during cinematics...although it takes away a "strategic" aspect, namely ensuring your win with a "timer scam". Don't increase timer, it won't change the gameplay AT ALL, people will just prolong the the "inevitable timeout". Timer really isn't the problem. Overall alot of the supers have ridiculously long cinematics.
    -Increase walkspeed like the OP mentioned, stages are huge and because some Tekken characters don't have the same tools as alot of SF character to control space very well, this would help them alot.
    -Change the input of some moves for certain characters. Some characters have unique attacks that really mess them up when trying to do another move in certain situations.
    -Assist gems, non issue in tournament play, gems overall, but i would like to see them severely nerfed.getting rid off. When a decent player has autotech/block gem and blocks most attacks, this will make it even more difficult and building meter in SfxT is really easy. Again a reason why timeout happen alot.
    -Again like the OP mentioned, and personally one of my biggest gripes with the game, the Anti-Airs. Alot if instances one doesn't even attempt to AA because of the risk, not knowing if it trades or just beat out. Jumping is too strong in this game to the point where people don't want to play of spacing anymore. It makes the gameplay repetitive, and boring, and characters that have strong space control tools are unable to make use of them effectively.
    -Decrease the speed at which the recoverable live is regained alot, doesn't make people aware of health management, doesn't enforce players to do more properly timed tags as much as it should. During 1 combo health can be easily regained.
    -Rolls, they are a problem the neutral game is achieved too fast after this, basically you have to guess when you want to do a jump in mixup, better options are pressing with a meaty attack on the ground, however alot of character don't have great mixups after that. Make the rolls punishable with atleast a throw.
    Throws, slow and no range. Without the risk of the throwgame no reason for a person to be afraid, espcially if a character has a slow overhead and can't combo of off it.
    -Rebalancing of the characters.(hitboxes, frame(dis)advanatage,juggle counter, damage etc. Alot of characters feel unfinished", will also promote more variety in character usage.
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  • NegativeEdgeNegativeEdge Not a G Joined: Posts: 152
    Wanted to also note the whole jab stun is mainly only an issue with chars that ALSO have fast walk speed i.e. cammy...etc..

    -Stop timer during cinematics is a big YES.
    -Dont increase timer overall - matches will just take longer.
    -Recover gray life is OK as is - adds to strategy in healing and team synergy.
  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    Wanted to also note the whole jab stun is mainly only an issue with chars that ALSO have fast walk speed i.e. cammy...etc..

    -Stop timer during cinematics is a big YES.
    -Dont increase timer overall - matches will just take longer.
    -Recover gray life is OK as is - adds to strategy in healing and team synergy.

    I really don't think walk speed / jab pressure is that big of a thing -- they just need to make it not such an appetizing way to approach playing the game (currently its just a really good way to go.)
    SFxTK: Lars/Kazuya, Bryan/Marduk | P4U: Undecided | BBCS: Valkenhayn
    Fundamentals: [OO~~~] | Theory: [OOOO~] | Execution: [OO~~~] | Beast Mode: [OO~~~]
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