Why and when did Turbo 3 become the standard speed?

dsurgeon215dsurgeon215 Joined: Posts: 21
The default speed for arcade ST is Turbo 1, so isn't that the way the game was meant to be played? Otherwise, reversals and execution in general wouldn't be so flipping hard.

When did people get the bright idea to bring it up a few notches? Well, it was probably the arcade owners that made the decision.

Everyone plays it on the Turbo 1 setting in GGPO, and yet, you have people playing on Turbo 3 in HD:Remix. If arcade perfect ST is so important, then why isn't everyone sticking to its default speed?

Comments

  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    Everyone plays it on turbo 1 setting on GGPO because of the lag. a Long time ago when GGPO was a bit better (servers wern't as overloaded) and people were still figuring out *how* good GGPO was, we were all playing on turbo 3 US. (that was the standard back then) then afterward people felt it was too "Fast" (because it was too hard to react to things compared to offline) so people started playing on turbo 2 us / turbo 3 jp. Then something happened and we decided to have the same speed settings for tournaments as japan. so offline became turbo 2 (U)/turbo 3 (J) and everyone took it down to turbo 1 online and that's what we're stuck with. better for using online for learning strategy but messes up your timing a lot more if you're used to offline speeds.

    Don't quote me on this because I didn't play ST back then even casually, but I played some of the vs series casually. and when there was free select for speeds, hardly anyone chose normal. People just preferred faster gameplay. (especially with new challengers being so slow compared to HF)

    Turbo 3 was the fastest speed you could choose on free select so I bet people just gravitated toward that and it became de facto standard. I don't know how true this is but I also recall someone saying that there *isn't* really a standard in JP, and sometimes you'll get games in tournaments played on lower speeds too because players choose the speeds. If that's true, then again, most of the games we see from jp are turbo 3 because people prefer it.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
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    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    The default speed for arcade ST is Turbo 1, so isn't that the way the game was meant to be played? Otherwise, reversals and execution in general wouldn't be so flipping hard.

    When did people get the bright idea to bring it up a few notches? Well, it was probably the arcade owners that made the decision.

    Everyone plays it on the Turbo 1 setting in GGPO, and yet, you have people playing on Turbo 3 in HD:Remix. If arcade perfect ST is so important, then why isn't everyone sticking to its default speed?

    T1 is only the standard on GGPO. This is due to the fact that it tries to account for both internet lag and the input lag in this version of online ST. T1 is used in order to make the speed feel like arcade-perfect ST. That being said, the timing for pretty much all of your reversals and combos will be off from offline timing.

    I'm not sure how T3-JP become the gold standard for tourneys. I assume that since Super SF2, where the game was ridiculously slow, everybody wanted to play the game on its fastest setting, which in the States, is T3-US. But since we try to mirror our scene after the Japanese scene, we've come to adopt their standards for tournaments, which is T3-JP, on a US board the closest thing would be T2-US.

    I hear of Japanese tournaments using both T3 and T4 depending on where you go.
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    T3 on HDR is way different than T1 on GGPO and T3(jap) T2(U.S) for arcades...

    Talking about game speeds i realized that if i use hdr(ps3 version) training mode for classic mode, when i jump into ST, my execution, timing, reactions and everything is a mess.

    I won't use that training mode again.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    HDR timing in classic mode is off from arcade ST, regardless of which console version it's on. When trying to land reversals in a game where you only have 1-frame to do it, AND there's frame skipping, it doesn't leave you much room for error when playing on different versions of ST.
  • Turn A TurnTurn A Turn Joined: Posts: 26
    Sorry if this is a silly question/in the wrong place but what speed is recommended for offline GGPO? I'm using the World 940223 ROM.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    According to Fagsky, you should never use it offline. The recent versions of M.A.M.E. should be used. The LA crew have recently used M.A.M.E. and lagless monitors for tournaments and they say it is a good alternative to CPS-2 (i.e., original, arcade) Super Turbo.
  • F-A-M-I-L-Y ManF-A-M-I-L-Y Man feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
    If you're using MAME, go with the settings in DGV's post:

    http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-are-the-best-st-console-ports.160855/#post-7010425

    I personally opt for US Turbo 1 when practicing in MAME.
    GGPO: Pillowhashi
  • Turn A TurnTurn A Turn Joined: Posts: 26
    Thanks. MAME it is!
  • dsurgeon215dsurgeon215 Joined: Posts: 21
    Maybe thats the reason why I can't consistently do chain rekkakens or crossups in HD:Remix...

    I guess i"ll drop that and stick with GGPO.

    On a similar note, does Third Strike:Online Edition have that problem...?
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Maybe thats the reason why I can't consistently do chain rekkakens or crossups in HD:Remix...

    I guess i"ll drop that and stick with GGPO.

    On a similar note, does Third Strike:Online Edition have that problem...?
    I believe all recent Capcom games have been developed either for the XBox360 or recent arcade cabinets - which run some windows version - then poorly ported over the PS3 with input lag and inconsistencies.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Maybe thats the reason why I can't consistently do chain rekkakens or crossups in HD:Remix...

    I guess i"ll drop that and stick with GGPO.

    On a similar note, does Third Strike:Online Edition have that problem...?

    There's a legitimate thread somewhere on these forums (probably the 3s section) about the noted input delay in 3SOE.

    I think it has something around 5-8 frames of input delay. Not just surmised delay, but the game in all its various console versions, have been tested to have delay on it. Hell, I'm not even a core 3s player, and even I could tell that there was a definite timing difference between arcade 3S and 3SOE. These concerns originated from the fact that not even the 3SOE testers were playing on lag-free monitors, which is obviously a huge concern in the FGC.

    Which is strange that ASUS monitors have become tourney standard, even though there's still lag present in these monitors, and there are better alternatives, but whatevs.

    Also, 3SOE sometimes doesn't register EX moves, even if you perform the motions and button presses perfectly.

    Other than those major issues, the game is fine. Although I thought the PS2 version was better imo.
  • neweggnewegg MVC3? SSF4AE? Joined: Posts: 60
    Hmm... I heard that the 3SOE lead developer assured that there was no lag (input or display) and that they even verified it after people complained days after the release.

    I'm not too familiar with 3s though.

    To OP: ST was played in US turbo 3 (fastest setting) during the early days in the US.
    In japan they settled on JP turbo 3 (second fastest setting) and most people follow that now (US turbo 2 is almost identical to JP turbo 3).

    Playing ST on turbo 0 and turbo 3 is a night and day difference. Zoning characters own on slowest setting.

    Online / emulation and the actual offline arcade experience are also very different even if you use the same speed due to emulation error, online lag, input lag, display lag, etc etc.

    So people try to find compromise by adjusting the turbo speed on emu.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    ...
    Which is strange that ASUS monitors have become tourney standard, even though there's still lag present in these monitors, and there are better alternatives, but whatevs.
    ...

    Evo is the 800 lb Gorilla there. AFAICT the story is that they asked people for input, and ended up with the ASUS monitor and no audio out feeds. (The tech talk crowd does occasionally refer to the EVO monitors as 'lagless' <shrug>.)

    It's arguable that a current-generation console set up is about as complex as a PC, so lag may not be as consistent as people expect.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Playing ST on turbo 0 and turbo 3 is a night and day difference. Zoning characters own on slowest setting.
    I see Guile and Dhalsim getting better due to having more time to react, but others should have a harder time. The slower the game runs, the easier it gets to neutral-jump over projectiles. I believe characters with better normals would benefit the most.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Hmm... I heard that the 3SOE lead developer assured that there was no lag (input or display) and that they even verified it after people complained days after the release.

    I'm not too familiar with 3s though.

    To OP: ST was played in US turbo 3 (fastest setting) during the early days in the US.
    In japan they settled on JP turbo 3 (second fastest setting) and most people follow that now (US turbo 2 is almost identical to JP turbo 3).

    Playing ST on turbo 0 and turbo 3 is a night and day difference. Zoning characters own on slowest setting.

    Online / emulation and the actual offline arcade experience are also very different even if you use the same speed due to emulation error, online lag, input lag, display lag, etc etc.

    So people try to find compromise by adjusting the turbo speed on emu.

    They may have verified it, and assured the general public, but can't do much arguing against the tech talk guys who seem to have thoroughly investigated this.

    Random question, but was there a 3s side tourney at this year's Evo? Didn't seem like it.

    Actually, playing on a slower speed feels like it's harder to zone out characters. You have more time to react to a fireball, which makes it easier to kick shotos in the face, neutral jump over them, or reaction super or trade with the spin kick. The higher speed makes it so that you have less time to react to these things, which makes it easier to throw a fireball right at someone's face, or cause them to land on a jab or strong fireball when they were expecting a fierce fireball.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Actually, playing on a slower speed feels like it's harder to zone out characters. You have more time to react to a fireball, which makes it easier to kick shotos in the face, neutral jump over them, or reaction super or trade with the spin kick.
    This is so true. If one wants a proof, there are some videos around from a SSF2 tournament where Watson picks Ryu against Jesse Howard, who is using Ken. Watson punishes every melee-range Hadouken by trading (favorably) with Ryu's Tatsu.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    This is so true. If one wants a proof, there are some videos around from a SSF2 tournament where Watson picks Ryu against Jesse Howard, who is using Ken. Watson punishes every melee-range Hadouken by trading (favorably) with Ryu's Tatsu.

    On a good day, Watson is still capable of doing this on HF. I think occasionally it will even beat it clean due to his insane amount of invulnerability on his spin kick, along with hit stun effects.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Indeed. RH and Fwd Tatsu go through Fierce and Strong Hadoukens during their start-up. Fast projectiles from mid and close range = death against Ryu in HF and CE. In SSF2, Watson reacted right away to punish them, cos the invulnerability is useless against other shotos. It was a different (harder) thing, which has impressed me since it depends almost immediate reaction, else it is too late.

    I need tips for CE Ryu. I had trouble against Dhalsim today. Fucker has an year to react to pretty much anything you do, and his cross-up kick drill seems BS. In the left corner, it crosses up and I had to use reverse SRK to try and escape, it it rarely came out.
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    I uploaded the ST rom for mame(ggpo roms won't work), if anyone wants to download it, just send a PM or contact me on ggpo chat, i won't post the direct link here, i don't want an infraction.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

    The Crew - www.nohonorcrew.com/
  • 7 5 07 5 0 Joined: Posts: 458
    If I understand the ST platform standards correctly:
    Mame: JP Speed 2
    US Speed 1

    HDR Classic: Speed 3?

    GGPO: Speed 1

    Yes?
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    The default speed for arcade ST is Turbo 1, so isn't that the way the game was meant to be played? Otherwise, reversals and execution in general wouldn't be so flipping hard.

    When did people get the bright idea to bring it up a few notches? Well, it was probably the arcade owners that made the decision.

    Everyone plays it on the Turbo 1 setting in GGPO, and yet, you have people playing on Turbo 3 in HD:Remix. If arcade perfect ST is so important, then why isn't everyone sticking to its default speed?


    Capcom made speed settings because when they made Super SF2, they fucked up and made the speed to slow. No one wanted to play it because hyper SF2 was much much faster. ST came out with faster speeds to get people playing again. In the US, everyone went to the fastest speed so that became the standard here. The Japanese version doesn't go as fast as the US version so they stuck to the fast possible speed they had. We went 1 up, but went back down a notch to match with the Japanese standard because all the American OG's retired and the new school players want to match with the Japanese speeds in case we ever manage to get Japanese players to show up to American tournies.
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    Ah shit..    
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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Capcom made speed settings because when they made Super SF2, they fucked up and made the speed to slow. No one wanted to play it because hyper SF2 was much much faster. ST came out with faster speeds to get people playing again. In the US, everyone went to the fastest speed so that became the standard here. The Japanese version doesn't go as fast as the US version so they stuck to the fast possible speed they had. We went 1 up, but went back down a notch to match with the Japanese standard because all the American OG's retired and the new school players want to match with the Japanese speeds in case we ever manage to get Japanese players to show up to American tournies.
    According to Gerald (LA_Akira), SSF2 was being developed in Japan based on CE. It took them quite some time to get the game done. Prior to that, Capcom USA got the green light to develop a response to the several CE hacks which were flooding the arcades, which is how HF came to be. That is, they never really slowed the game in terms of development, it was Capcom USA which had increased it before SSF2 was complete.

    I wonder how much western arcade operators influenced the speed decision. They have always seen customers as an inconvenience, and tried to make players lose as soon as possible. We have always had the machine on hardest and the fastest speed. SNES HF and SSF2 aside, the first time I saw a speed selection prompt was actually in Alpha.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    According to Gerald (LA_Akira), SSF2 was being developed in Japan based on CE. It took them quite some time to get the game done. Prior to that, Capcom USA got the green light to develop a response to the several CE hacks which were flooding the arcades, which is how HF came to be. That is, they never really slowed the game in terms of development, it was Capcom USA which had increased it before SSF2 was complete.

    That would make sense as to why the speed was so fucked up. So once the US players got a hold of hyper speeds, no one wanted to go back.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    According to Gerald (LA_Akira), SSF2 was being developed in Japan based on CE. It took them quite some time to get the game done. Prior to that, Capcom USA got the green light to develop a response to the several CE hacks which were flooding the arcades, which is how HF came to be. That is, they never really slowed the game in terms of development, it was Capcom USA which had increased it before SSF2 was complete.

    I wonder how much western arcade operators influenced the speed decision. They have always seen customers as an inconvenience, and tried to make players lose as soon as possible. We have always had the machine on hardest and the fastest speed. SNES HF and SSF2 aside, the first time I saw a speed selection prompt was actually in Alpha.
    That makes sense! I mean I'm pretty sure hyper fighting was one of the most popular versions of SF2 they made a design choice to speed up the game AND IT PAID OFF! WHY would you slow the game down again?!? That person should have been fired l lol but after reading your post I had one else of those "OHHHH!” moments where a lightbulb just clicks
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    The default speed for arcade ST is Turbo 1, so isn't that the way the game was meant to be played?

    The default speed on the game board itself isn't consistent in all versions. Japan default is Turbo 2. World default is Turbo 1 (equivalent to JP T2). US default is Turbo 2 (equivalent to JP T3). So we're actually playing on the default US speed for tourneys right now.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    In this video, Otochun decreases the speed down to 1 before facing Blanka (second match):

    I had seen D also decrease the speed before, in a 15 v 15 East vs West event.
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