The Power of Resets and General Oki Game

Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-baggingJoined: Posts: 1,842
edited March 2013 in Street Fighter x Tekken
EDIT: Woah this thread is a mess now. I'll fix the links later.

Some of this info is partially outdated. In ver 2013 rolls are punishable by throw and deny wake up options other than block. So how you handle rolls is slightly different than vanilla but a lot of it is still the same.

Resets

A reset is interrupting a combo (skipping the knockdown part) to insert some kind of mixup where the opponent has to guess. If they guess wrong, you get another free combo. Resets deny wake up options and keep your opponent standing/guessing. In a game where you can deal 400-500 damage with only 1 bar of meter, resets are very powerful.



SimSimIV's Hugo/Dhalsim reset:


List of various stand resets found by UltraDavid:
CHARACTER NAME (CONDITION): MOVE TO FORCE STANDING RESET, NOTE
[SIZE=13px]Heihachi (ground bounce): ex raijin stance (hcb+p), only works if 1st hit connects[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Hwoarang (ground bounce): middle kick combo (mk, mk), first hit must whiff[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Jin (ground bounce): ex median line destruction (toward back toward+pp), random hit in the middle of it, opponent stands up and blocks the rest[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Juri (ground bounce): mk senpusha (qcb+mk), third hit[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Kazuya (ground bounce): hk rising sun (qcb+hk), cr mp, can combo after[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Law (ground bounce): close lp back+mp mp, can combo after[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Marduk (ground bounce): catapult tackle combo (far hp, down+pp), first hit must whiff[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Nina (ground bounce): rolling dash backhand slap (hcb+k, pp)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Ryu (any comboable knockdown): ex dp xx switch cancel, walk the opponent out of it[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Sagat (ground bounce): any strength tiger knee (dp+k), last hit must whiff[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Steve (ground bounce): foot stomp (down-back+lk)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]Xiaoyu (ground bounce): ex hakkesho (qcb+pp), only works if 2nd series connects[/SIZE]

Some of these require ex meter and some of them have to be set up by a partner, but spending a bar or even two bars to guarantee where your opponent will be after a significant combo can be very important sometimes.?
Source (with videos): http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/sfxt-standing-resets.159920/

edit: Again, most of these stand resets UltraDavid found in vanilla seem to have been removed.

You don't need a teammate to do resets. A character can do one alone. For example: If you're hitting a tekken chain and instead of going for launcher you EX CADC into overhead/low, that's a reset. If Ken ends a combo with a ground Tatsu, that's also a reset. They're just more powerful when done with a partner.

*vid showcasing some solo resets*


Oki Game

"Okizeme" in japanese stands for "offensive wake up game". It refers to when the opponent is knocked down and getting up and the things you can do in that situation to maintain pressure. In english, "wake up" usually refers to getting up after being knocked down, so we mostly use the term to refer to defending against oki.

A character with good wake up = a character with good reversals and/or escape options

A character with good oki = a character that has good tools to limit, counter, bait or shut down reversal / escape options



Auto-correct tech:

Note: The above technique only works for unique normals, special moves and super jumps.

OS Green Hand tech by UltraDavid:


Safe Jumping:



I guess I'll make a vid for SFxT since I can't find any.

Safe Jump Option-Selects:


Option-Selects w/o safe jump:

FlyingVe showing how you can OS command normals to catch backdash with the SF cast:



Similar concept but for some tekken characters (Christie in this case):



*vid how speed/slow gems can open up new safe jump possibilities.*

*vid showing how much quickstand can be delayed*

*Different ways to reset the roll*
Post edited by Jamp on
SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
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Comments

  • SimSimIVSimSimIV 2nd. in command of the SFxT Defense Force Joined: Posts: 1,240 ✭✭
    Great that you are doing this:) I haven't watched yet, but I am about to!
    Simsimiv: Little known fact: Tatsu shaved his head for SFxT
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  • ViolentDjangoViolentDjango KEEP CALM and EWGF Joined: Posts: 1,170
    My contribution to the SFxT Defense Force. :D

    You realize I'm not even going to give you the option of not working on the DLC character guides with me, right?

    Great stuff, as usual. :P
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    It's not meant to be a "omg check this new tech" video btw. A lot of you guys probably already know about most of this stuff, but I was more aiming these at lower level/intermediate players and new players that come from AE and have no clue what's going on in this game.

    With the 12 new characters coming out soon, I think we'll see a lot of new players pick up the game so I think it's important to educate them and share knowledge so that they can get better more quickly at this game. :)
    You realize I'm not even going to give you the option of not working on the DLC character guides with me, right?
    lol
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • ThancruzThancruz Joined: Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is some good stuff. Maybe this should be front page, so people can see a way this game could progress past the boost combo into super art phase already, and ways to keep opponents standing instead of having to worry about "free rolls".
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    This is some good stuff. Maybe this should be front page
    Yes, that was the plan. :) I already submitted it to shoryuken and eventhubs. Hopefully my vids will be front paged later today or tomorrow..

    I know rawtag has already put them up on their site so that's cool. :D
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,562 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You know, I should be trying to abuse things like this more. Excellent vids, got me thinking of some things. :-)
    ~ aka "ninrok" aka "waifufighter" ~
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  • ThancruzThancruz Joined: Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wish I could make a contribution like this, the most I can do is just play the game :( . I don't know how to do all that frame data and magical stuff you guys do lol.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums
  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭✭
    Vulcan Hades, you are a god amongst men. You made me hero, Paul look awesome! OSU! Keep up the good video's, they were enjoyable and informative.

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  • The Lone DragonThe Lone Dragon perverted feminist Joined: Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭
    Yes, that was the plan. :) I already submitted it to shoryuken and eventhubs. Hopefully my vids will be front paged later today or tomorrow..

    It's on SRK front page...good job!

    And, I think I'll steal that Asuka reset on crumple cr. fierce...*yoink*
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    Paul look awesome!
    lol the funny thing is I don't even use Paul that much and I'm still pretty bad with him. :p

    I only used Paul in this video because he had all the tools I needed to show everything I wanted to show. The only thing he didn't have was a projectile so that's why I picked Juri. I could've shown the same ideas with Yoshimitsu too but then I'd just be giving away my secret setups. :rolleyes:

    It also goes to show that even though Paul is considered among the worst in the game, he still has tools and interesting things going for him. It's just unfortunate that he's so slow and that his c.lk is like 6 frames (lol).
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • BadIntentBadIntent Joined: Posts: 176
    Very nice vids! I haven't been able to find any real resets with Cammy or Ryu, but they have good ways to deal with rolls. A grounded shoto lk tatsu right before a roll to switch sides with the opponent works like Lili's twirl do disrupt the roll input. Shoto's angled jumping lk can hit crossup, then land in the front. Real hard to defend against if you roll into Ryu jumping back. Cammy's roundhouse works similarly even though the spacing is a lot more strict. It can hit in the front, then land on the other side. From what I've seen, most characters have at least one jumping normal with that kind of property, so try to find and use that when jumping back against rolls.
  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭✭
    lol the funny thing is I don't even use Paul that much and I'm still pretty bad with him. :p

    I only used Paul in this video because he had all the tools I needed to show everything I wanted to show. The only thing he didn't have was a projectile so that's why I picked Juri. I could've shown the same ideas with Yoshimitsu too but then I'd just be giving away my secret setups. :rolleyes:

    It also goes to show that even though Paul is considered among the worst in the game, he still has tools and interesting things going for him. It's just unfortunate that he's so slow and that his c.lk is like 6 frames (lol).
    Here's the thing with Paul, even when you lose you win. As he's just so badass. :P
    The things you demonstrated were a breath of fresh air, and it only makes Paul look good. :)
    Let's not talk about his frame data...as I'll have to mention Yoshi in my argument. :P

    I'm definitely looking forward to more of your videos. :)
    http://zeroisbetterthanwesker.blogspot.co.uk/


    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
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  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭
    Congrats vulcan these are both amazing. I especially liked your use of Paul because he is meant to be a character with a strong oki and corner game, which you were able to showcase.

    I plan on writing a bit of an oki/corner guide to Paul, would you mind if I linked to your video for it to showcase examples I give and give credit for the ex cadc shenanigans as well as give players general oki knowledge to apply?

    Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    I plan on writing a bit of an oki/corner guide to Paul, would you mind if I linked to your video for it to showcase examples I give and give credit for the ex cadc shenanigans as well as give players general oki knowledge to apply?
    I don't mind but like I said I don't really play Paul. My video wasn't supposed to be a Paul tutorial at all. Nothing I showed is specific to Paul or Juri, almost all characters can apply the same ideas one way or another.
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭
    True true. In the immortal words of Sir Lancelot: "sorry, sorry. Just got carried away..."

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  • thecapsaicinkidthecapsaicinkid drops combo, pretends it's a reset Joined: Posts: 991
    You sir, are the business.

    Reset heavy teams are going to dominate this game I think, hence why Ryu isn't such god tier after all (unless there's something I'm missing)
    Fighting game player, coder, chilli lover, ruffian.
  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭✭
    You sir, are the business.

    Reset heavy teams are going to dominate this game I think, hence why Ryu isn't such god tier after all (unless there's something I'm missing)
    +1 Joudan, oh wait....

    I told everybody Paul was Captain Universe tier, but nobody listened. :P
    http://zeroisbetterthanwesker.blogspot.co.uk/


    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • DocDignityDocDignity Joined: Posts: 380
    Great vids!
    Any nice reset ideas for Hwoarang?
  • PsychobluePsychoblue the Conductor of the Hype Train Joined: Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭✭
    That is a LOT of damage, wow! I'm not sure if my team (Sagat/Hei) has enough synergy for those kind of resets, but I guess that's what the lab is for!

    Also, BIG props for the Oki vid. This has been one of the biggest things that's kept me from really being good at this game: learning how to anticipate the types of wakeup. I will definitely take note of this!
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    Reset heavy teams are going to dominate this game I think, hence why Ryu isn't such god tier after all (unless there's something I'm missing)
    Well.. Ryu can setup a reset via EX Shoryuken xx Switch. (if you push them out of it they remain standing)
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • JampJamp Toxic Beauty Joined: Posts: 7,387 mod
    What do you guys think about sticking this thread and turning it into a general Oki/reset thread?
    "Hey man if I lose to it, I'm pretty sure that makes it braindead." - AceKillah
  • thecapsaicinkidthecapsaicinkid drops combo, pretends it's a reset Joined: Posts: 991
    Well.. Ryu can setup a reset via EX Shoryuken xx Switch. (if you push them out of it they remain standing)
    What are you thinking about exactly with EX SRK? Plus 2 bars is unlikely to be worth it when Ryu gets such good damage off 1.
    Fighting game player, coder, chilli lover, ruffian.
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What do you guys think about sticking this thread and turning it into a general Oki/reset thread?
    I like this idea.

    No disrespect to Vulcan (the vids were great), but Oki in this game is (for better or worse) more nuanced than in SF4 and there's lots of stuff that is being discovered on how to approach the roll situation.

    Though, it might be good to have a full OP, with all the videos and relevant Info attached. But that would take someone to do it... and I am lazy.
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  • Juri_kills_friend!Juri_kills_friend! Leader of the Lili Army Joined: Posts: 2,032
    Well.. Ryu can setup a reset via EX Shoryuken xx Switch. (if you push them out of it they remain standing)

    btw you don't need a teammate to do resets. A character can do one alone. I guess I should've shown some solo resets too.. They're just more powerful when done with a partner.

    Basically, a reset is just interrupting a combo (skipping the knockdown part) to insert some kind of mixup where the opponent has to guess. If they guess wrong, you get another free combo.

    If you're hitting a tekken chain and instead of going for launcher you EX CADC into overhead/low, that's a reset. If Juri ends a combo with LK Pinwheel, that's also a reset.
    lili can do a solo reset if someone tries to jump away from her hk dive kick i not only get to be on the otherside but you have to block because my active frames are out that will be your start up frames and since srk can get stuffed on start up you have not choice to block the next mix up or eat more damage.
    I gave you props in another forum post vulcan. So i'm going to do it here. great stuff. Keep it up!
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    No disrespect to Vulcan (the vids were great), but Oki in this game is (for better or worse) more nuanced than in SF4 and there's lots of stuff that is being discovered on how to approach the roll situation.
    Yeah you're right but I don't think I said somewhere that Oki was better or more important in this game. Roll dilutes your ability to lock someone down that's for sure.

    I was just tired of seeing so many players (including top SF4 players) do a knockdown then dash in, jump and put themselves in the corner vs roll. Then complain about it instead of trying a different approach.

    The big difference between AE and SFxT is that in AE you are heavily rewarded for knockdowns and get a guaranteed lockdown. In SFxT you have more escape options so the emphasis is put on the neutral game and resets instead of vortexes and safe jump option-selects. And unfortunately, that hurts characters with bad neutral games.

    I still prefer SFxT because in the end it all comes down to making sick reads and outplaying/outsmarting your opponent in neutral/footsies. Where as in AE I feel there's too much of BS and luck involved.
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah you're right but I don't think I said somewhere that Oki was better or more important in this game. Roll dilutes your ability to lock someone down that's for sure.

    I was just tired of seeing so many players (including top SF4 players) do a knockdown then dash in, jump and put themselves in the corner vs roll. Then complain about it instead of trying a different approach.

    The big difference between AE and SFxT is that in AE you are heavily rewarded for knockdowns and get a guaranteed lockdown. In SFxT you have more escape options so the emphasis is put on the neutral game and resets instead of vortexes and safe jump option-selects. And unfortunately, that hurts characters with bad neutral games.

    I still prefer SFxT because in the end it all comes down to making sick reads and outplaying/outsmarting your opponent in neutral/footsies. Where as in AE I feel there's too much of BS and luck involved.
    I think you misunderstood me, the "no disrespect bit" was meant to imply that I didn't think your vids weren't thread worthy.

    I agree though, people are way to used to SF4 knockdowns. SF4 has some of the easiest to create and most powerful Oki mixups in any game ever. To the point where (to me) it feels more like guessing than like playing a game.

    SFxT has rolls to prevent this. I have nothing against rolls at all, and don't even particularly hate the one in this game. I just don't like how safe and free they are. There is literally no consequence for rolling.

    Resets are probably the best way to got.
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  • FreakmonkeyFreakmonkey Draws Aminals Joined: Posts: 827 ✭✭✭
    This is amazing, great work Vulcan.
    Plugs for shit coming soon...
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    I think you misunderstood me, the "no disrespect bit" was meant to imply that I didn't think your vids weren't thread worthy.
    oh ok lol. Yeah I forgot all about the media thread..

    But like Jamp mentioned, I think this could be somehow turned into an informative thread about oki and resets. I could update the first post adding more videos and bits of information you guys provide. Though that might be a bit much for only 1 thread. We should probably have 2 separate threads since it's 2 different topics. I dunno..
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    oh ok lol. Yeah I forgot all about the media thread..

    But like Jamp mentioned, I think this could be somehow turned into an informative thread about oki and resets. I could update the first post adding more videos and bits of information you guys provide. Though that might be a bit much for only 1 thread. We should probably have 2 separate threads since it's 2 different topics. I dunno..
    Well, There's the vid on using the Super Jump Auto Correct.

    I made the lili vid.

    Dr. Grammar made some good Hwoarang stuff.

    I'm working on Nina stuff.
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  • ThancruzThancruz Joined: Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think you misunderstood me, the "no disrespect bit" was meant to imply that I didn't think your vids weren't thread worthy.

    I agree though, people are way to used to SF4 knockdowns. SF4 has some of the easiest to create and most powerful Oki mixups in any game ever. To the point where (to me) it feels more like guessing than like playing a game.

    SFxT has rolls to prevent this. I have nothing against rolls at all, and don't even particularly hate the one in this game. I just don't like how safe and free they are. There is literally no consequence for rolling.

    Resets are probably the best way to got.
    Maybe resets and ways to keep opponents standing is the next step in growing this game.
  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭
    Vulcan, would there be more video's in the future? Like about more general things on SFxT, and how would you feel about someone doing a Vesper Arcade styled In depth tutorial on SFxT?
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  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maybe resets and ways to keep opponents standing is the next step in growing this game.
    They are a part of it.

    The trick isn't to do the reset, it to balance the damage and meter sacrifice so that it's actually productive.
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    Maybe resets and ways to keep opponents standing is the next step in growing this game.
    It's funny because UltraDavid and James Chen already mentioned how important denying wake up options was in this game a long time ago but not many listened. Or they listened but couldn't find ways to apply it effectively with their team..
    Vulcan, would there be more video's in the future? Like about more general things on SFxT, and how would you feel about someone doing a Vesper Arcade styled In depth tutorial on SFxT?
    lol I don't think I would be able to do something like that. That guy was nuts. He made like 14 chapters with 4-6 parts each.

    Also, I'm not that knowledgeable about the game (it's still new and I'm sure there's a ton of things I don't know about). Plus, I would basically be repeating most of what Vesper already said.
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • RaidenaveliRaidenaveli Jesus Shuttlesworth Joined: Posts: 130
    Definitely good vids. Most of this stuff I had to figure out by myself as I progressed in the game. I remember being wet between the ears coming into this game trying to use Chun Li like how I did in AE and it just wasn't working. Just yesterday I went back to Chun and started working on finding ways to reset with Chun/Nina because both have the ability to keep you grounded for a tag cancel(Chun with her lightning legs and Nina with her flash kicks)and because after Chuns J.hp(target Combo), Cr.hp, into spinning leg kicks of course can be tag canceled out of into Nina's Ivory Cutter(overhead)and that creates a pressure situation with Nina's high/low options. Wish I could post a vid but meh.....camera batteries are low.
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    Ok so I updated the first post and added some stuff..

    Would be nice if some of you could give me links to other relevant videos/threads (I can't find the super jump auto-correct vs roll btw. Though I remember having seen it)
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • ThancruzThancruz Joined: Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok so I updated the first post and added some stuff..

    Would be nice if some of you could give me links to other relevant videos/threads (I can't find the super jump auto-correct vs roll btw. Though I remember having seen it)
    I think this is the vid you are looking for
  • Dr. GrammarDr. Grammar Fighting Game Scientist Joined: Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭
    I wrote about some of my findings regarding okizeme on my recently created blog. It mainly describes general concepts without going very much into specific characters or setups.

    Edit: Whoops, I forgot something really important. I added one more point to my post, discussing standing resets.
    #SFxT @ EFNet - It's better than SRK
  • SwoopsSwoops Care for a free sample? Joined: Posts: 624 ✭✭✭
    Awesome thread and info to have, glad it got stickied.

    Anybody have any tips on how to do the option select jumps for rolls? I do alright option selecting certain specials, but I'm finding the timing for super jumps really damn hard.
  • Juri_kills_friend!Juri_kills_friend! Leader of the Lili Army Joined: Posts: 2,032
    I think you misunderstood me, the "no disrespect bit" was meant to imply that I didn't think your vids weren't thread worthy.

    I agree though, people are way to used to SF4 knockdowns. SF4 has some of the easiest to create and most powerful Oki mixups in any game ever. To the point where (to me) it feels more like guessing than like playing a game.

    SFxT has rolls to prevent this. I have nothing against rolls at all, and don't even particularly hate the one in this game. I just don't like how safe and free they are. There is literally no consequence for rolling.

    Resets are probably the best way to got.
    rolls are an option which sf4 lacks. Options are huge in this game. When you roll you do it to get out of pressure but what if you roll and you're not in the life lead. You put yourself out of range to make something happen and thus your opponent now knows two things. You're gonna have to go in or you're going to tag out. If you roll away and you have the life lead it's a smart move because you're doing the right thing and not risking eating a 50/50 mix up. Xtekken cross ups are MORE ambiguous than in sf4 because some normals can cross up if you super jump and most opponents don't know this. With my character lili if you don't roll you commit to a 50/50 dive kick which will usually lead to your death; why eat that? But if you roll away nothing happens to me. I either os into divine step or dive kick build meter and do not risk anything; i'm safe. The situation is reset and sometimes its in my favor if i have the life lead. Look at how much transpired in that one roll and the outcomes that followed.That's why i enjoy this game because each choice you make and each option you utilizes results into something. I think most players are still trying to grasps the options in front of them and why they benefit them in certain situations and why sometimes they don't.
    JOIN THE LILI ARMY! FOFOFOFOFOFOFO!
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  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    rolls are an option which sf4 lacks. Options are huge in this game. When you roll you do it to get out of pressure but what if you roll and you're not in the life lead. You put yourself out of range to make something happen and thus your opponent now knows two things. You're gonna have to go in or you're going to tag out. If you roll away and you have the life lead it's a smart move because you're doing the right thing and not risking eating a 50/50 mix up. Xtekken cross ups are MORE ambiguous than in sf4 because some normals can cross up if you super jump and most opponents don't know this. With my character lili if you don't roll you commit to a 50/50 dive kick which will usually lead to your death; why eat that? But if you roll away nothing happens to me. I either os into divine step or dive kick build meter and do not risk anything; i'm safe. The situation is reset and sometimes its in my favor if i have the life lead. Look at how much transpired in that one roll and the outcomes that followed.That's why i enjoy this game because each choice you make and each option you utilizes results into something. I think most players are still trying to grasps the options in front of them and why they benefit them in certain situations and why sometimes they don't.
    Yes and no because the rolls move you forward most of the time you're actually going to be put in a more advantageous position when rolling then if you stood straight up, even if solely because you can get out of the corner with it.

    I would prefer the rolls have some manner risk associated with them. That way the defender is the one taking the risk by trying to roll out, rather than the attacker taking a chance by trying to bait the roll. Look at your example with the dive kick. Yes that is reasonably risk-free if you assume your opponents only options are rolling, but in this game your opponent has a plethora of options. In addition to the role they've access to invulnerable back dash, several reversal moves many of which might even be safe if tag canceled and auto correct themselves. Even otherwise neat technology like the super jump option select has the downside of ruining your chances at a safe jump leaving you vulnerable to Dragon punches, which in this game, means huge damage.
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    In the end, it boils down to:

    knockdowns = good if you have the life lead / not so good if your opponent has the life lead
    resets = good if you want to come back / not so good if your opponent needs to comeback or if a normal combo would kill.

    In this game, you are almost rewarded for being knocked down (since you often have more chances to get out safely than to get hit by something). That's why resets are good: they deny wake up options and make it harder for the opponent to escape your pressure.

    Health management is also huge because it basically decides where the pressure is and who is actually taking a bigger risk on knockdown situations.

    For example: say I land a combo on you and knock you down. I throw a meaty projectile in case you quickstand, but you don't quickstand. So then I stay at max roll distance expecting you to roll but you don't roll. The situation is now reset: we're both at neutral again.

    If I have the life lead, I took zero risk and the pressure is on you because you need to tag somehow and comeback from behind. You need to take risks. I won.

    If you have the life lead, I lost my momentum and you got out of my mixup safely. You won.
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭
    So how does one go about finding resets? Id like to think we haven't found all of them yet. the ones in which a character can combo into a mixup, like King's elbow smash, are easy to look for in the lab but aren't there other kinds as well, like the ones ultradavid tried to collect?

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  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭
    Poison does not understand the concept of a reset.....but im trying to work something out in that regard.
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  • NedoNedo Joined: Posts: 224
    rofl, I didn't know that every character has a superjump xD
  • MenenMenen Kunimitsu! Joined: Posts: 197
    Honestly I actually didn't believe in this silly oki poki stuff. So I added vulcan on xbox and played a lot of matches with him. I rolled on purpose to try to expose his "art" then when I rolled he did really mean things to me :(. To the point I couldn't roll anymore because my sodium levels were so high I had to take my hands off the controller and meditate and I'd stand up in neutral. Fun games vulcan I like how you play! You could of timeout me when you had the life lead but your the type of player that thinks "It's not a win till someones laying on the floor KO'd, "whats a timeout, eh I dunno?" ATTACK!". Players like you make this game enjoyable, thanks for the fun ^.^!
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    lol yeah I got really mean and dirty setups vs every type of knockdown. It surprises people everytime. :)

    GGs (do we even have a GGs thread?)

    btw I do play really lame sometimes. Depends on the matchup I think and who I'm playing.
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,562 ✭✭✭✭✭
    GGs (do we even have a GGs thread?)

    Actually we could probably use one around here. :D
    ~ aka "ninrok" aka "waifufighter" ~
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  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 SRK Water Gym Leader (Closed) Joined: Posts: 5,784 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, this stuff isn't exactly "Oki" per se, but these are ways that you can mess with the opponent's wake-up so that you will be in range to continue some kind of pressure no matter how the opponent gets up from a knockdown.

    With Ken, if you do his forward throw, then immediately forward jump, if your opponent rolls they'll be rolling in the same direction that you jumped. And if you do a delayed air tatsu, you'll end up in cr.mk range whether the opponent simply stood up or rolled, which you can then proceed to CADC to get back in the opponent's face. I believe the same principle applies to Ryu, as his forward throw is the same as Ken's.

    With Heihachi, if you do his forward throw, immediately dash twice, and then neutral jump HK, if the opponent rolls the opponent will end up behind you and the jumping HK will hit them, and you can then proceed to combo them (and if they manage to block it you can maintain pressure and continue with his devastating mix-up game). If the opponent doesn't roll, the jumping HK won't hit but you'll still be in range to do either :b: + :lp: (his overhead), :f: + :mp: (his low), or :f: + :lk: (frame trap), all of which can lead into full combos on hit.

    With Abel, if you connect with any version of Tornado Throw or the Change of Direction combo (ending with the overhead grab not the low), if you do LK roll as soon as possible, whether or not the opponent rolls you'll still be in step kick range.
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  • Juri_kills_friend!Juri_kills_friend! Leader of the Lili Army Joined: Posts: 2,032

    Around 1:28 in this vid is a reset. You'll see how effective it is in terms of resetting scaling and also optimizing damage. it's nothing huge but i feel it fits here the best.
    JOIN THE LILI ARMY! FOFOFOFOFOFOFO!
    SFXTekken: Ken x Lili (Money Inc) and maybe juri and sakura, and rolento, and maybe nina too!
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    Lili Reset Guide & Video Guide by yours truly JKF
  • GenUser!GenUser! Joined: Posts: 490
    Really really late to this thread, I feel like I understand this gaME NOW!!!! tHANKS SOO MUCH :D
    PSN: davmen05 Main Games: SSFIVAE, SFxT
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