The Power of Resets and General Oki Game

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Comments

  • grumpy64grumpy64 Joined: Posts: 241
    i'm just theory fighting and thinking out load but assuming unblockables still exist i wonder if their is anyway to set up one versus a rolling opponent.
  • Maverick Hunter XMaverick Hunter X Great risks, as well as endless possibilities Joined: Posts: 602
    As far as I know, Chun-Li and Juri's neutral jump HK serve as a good oki tool as they are both split kicks that hit both ways, so there is no more need for jumping backwards when predicting a roll. The only problem one has to do is on how to time the jump as jumping too early might make the opponent guess on what you are trying to do.

    Here's one of my match that has been pretty much all-out oki.

  • RayartzRayartz Hosenka Reversal Yo! Joined: Posts: 1,131
    Chun-Li and Juri's neutral jump HK serve as a good oki tool as they are both split kicks that hit both ways

    very good actually, especially when used in jump cancel situations.
    Say you've used Chun's(Cl.St.HK) or Juri's (Cr.Hp) to jump cancel and cross up the opponent. if you find them walking forward or predicting your cross up
    Jump canceling with a Neutral jump and coming down with HK can be extremely 50/50 on which way to block.
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  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    very good actually, especially when used in jump cancel situations.
    Say you've used Chun's(Cl.St.HK) or Juri's (Cr.Hp) to jump cancel and cross up the opponent. if you find them walking forward or predicting your cross up
    Jump canceling with a Neutral jump and coming down with HK can be extremely 50/50 on which way to block.

    Huh. Never thought of using it for that (assuming it'd work with Juri's since they're pretty similar j.HK's). :)

    EDIT: Actually, was curious about something. I've been working on a reset with Juri/Law, coming from Law's Shaolin Spin Kicks, tag-canceling into Juri, hitting with cr.HP jump cancelling into j.HP - the J.HP should theoretically hit just a few frames after the last spin kick, but timing seems tight, and I can usually only hit with it once or twice in a match before it gets blocked.

    When it hits, provided I don't drop the combo like I always do for some reason :bluu:... I can get 349+562 for three bars as a punish (252+562 if I confirm Spin Kicks off of a cr.mk in footsies).

    The problem of course... is the timing to make the j.HP as ambiguous as possible, though I can switch it up with j.MK for an easier crossup.

    I'll do a video in the near future, but figured I'd put it out there for some feedback, see if it's too wonky to work as a reset or if there's one better I'm overlooking for that team. :)
    ~ aka "ninrok" aka "waifufighter" ~
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  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...sorry for the double post in advance.

    Realized I never posted this, just a quick re-stand I did loooooooong ago based on FlyingVe's work:



    Just never could find a way to get that mid-screen. :(
    ~ aka "ninrok" aka "waifufighter" ~
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  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 SRK Water Gym Leader (Open) Joined: Posts: 6,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Found something that I think could be very useful for a lot of characters...

    XBL/GFWL/PSN/Steam: LordWilliam1234
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  • RagingRayRagingRay Kickin all day Joined: Posts: 601
    sigh..... so i know this is completely noob of me but this is the ONE term i dont know, what is "oki"?
    AE2012: (retired but when i do play) Ken, Yang, Juri
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  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    sigh..... so i know this is completely noob of me but this is the ONE term i dont know, what is "oki"?

    Pretty much the part of the game that takes place when one person is knocked down - your "oki" is what you can do to them to eff up their wake-up.

    I suck at giving out the proper definition so I'm going to link to the SF wiki now cuz' I'm all lazy and stuff. :-p
    ~ aka "ninrok" aka "waifufighter" ~
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  • chaoslimitschaoslimits Death by snu snu Joined: Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭
    sigh..... so i know this is completely noob of me but this is the ONE term i dont know, what is "oki"?
    Oki is that bullshit YOU do when you knock people down. Empty jump short and that cheap jump in that hits twice, in particular.
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  • RagingRayRagingRay Kickin all day Joined: Posts: 601
    Oki is that bullshit YOU do when you knock people down. Empty jump short and that cheap jump in that hits twice, in particular.
    aaa ok so i was doin oki and not even noticing it lol
    AE2012: (retired but when i do play) Ken, Yang, Juri
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  • Maverick Hunter XMaverick Hunter X Great risks, as well as endless possibilities Joined: Posts: 602
    Found something that I think could be very useful for a lot of characters...

    I'm not sure about Nina's Rolling Dash tech. It looks too risky to use as when I tried it to a non-rolling opponent in a vs CPU match I just get stuffed, or maybe I'm just too slow. o_O

    The other ones are good though. :tup:
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    sigh..... so i know this is completely noob of me but this is the ONE term i dont know, what is "oki"?
    You could've at least made the effort of reading the opening post because I explained it in simple terms. :lame:

    Wake up game is when you are getting up after being knocked down and the things you can do to escape your opponent's pressure/meaties. And the Oki game is when your opponent is getting up and all the things you can do to limit or counter his escape options and maitain pressure.

    EDIT: Added LordWilliam's vid to OP.

    I can't make videos anymore due to some computer problems so I won't be adding new stuff to this thread like I originally planned to. Not in a while at least.
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 SRK Water Gym Leader (Open) Joined: Posts: 6,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not sure about Nina's Rolling Dash tech. It looks too risky to use as when I tried it to a non-rolling opponent in a vs CPU match I just get stuffed, or maybe I'm just too slow. o_O

    The other ones are good though. :tup:

    Yeah, I don't really know much about Nina. It might be useful for an unblockable set-up with EX Rolling Dash but you probably have much, much better use for meter (especially since the flash makes it very easy to see coming). :)
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  • RagingRayRagingRay Kickin all day Joined: Posts: 601
    You could've at least made the effort of reading the opening post because I explained it in simple terms. :lame:

    Wake up game is when you are getting up after being knocked down and the things you can do to escape your opponent's pressure/meaties. And the Oki game is when your opponent is getting up and all the things you can do to limit or counter his escape options and maitain pressure.

    EDIT: Added LordWilliam's vid to OP.

    I can't make videos anymore due to some computer problems so I won't be adding new stuff to this thread like I originally planned to. Not in a while at least.
    lol well apparantly my main game, i always used oki but i always just called those wake up mixups soo derp my bad
    AE2012: (retired but when i do play) Ken, Yang, Juri
    SFXT: Guy, Hwoarang, Juri, Ken, learning Christie, Cammy, Ibuki, Dudley
    KOF13: Kim, Kyo, King
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    Added UltraDavid's Zangief option-select (auto-correct green hand) to OP.

    He already talked about this a while ago but now it's finally in video so it's easier to see how effective it is:

    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • will08will08 K POP Enforcer Joined: Posts: 240
    sigh..... so i know this is completely noob of me but this is the ONE term i dont know, what is "oki"?
    Its a Japanese word that translates to wake-up. Don't let people fool you thinking that Oki translates to Vortex because its not true. This was a common misconception back in vanilla sf4, Vortex CAN be an Oki tactic but Oki is more broad and can refer to any tricks you do on wake up to apply pressure.
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  • TheoryFighterTheoryFighter Joined: Posts: 68 ✭✭✭




    Both of these techniques are applicable to multiple characters i just thought these were good examples (plus i play them which helps).

    Edit:

    Another oki video, i should be uploading one last video tonight as well.



    Edit2:

    And here it is.

  • Shooting Star RockmanShooting Star Rockman Jaded Joined: Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭
    How effective this reset will be in an actual match? Will a player be able to react in time if I try to pull this off?

  • cg123n1cg123n1 PSN Penguin Joined: Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn't risk a straight up dash like that. Then again, I'm not that confident in myself. XD

    Still, since it's a reset that doesn't start up high, it could just be blocked low. Try alternating between that low kick and her overhead (since it's so fast). That'd be your best bet.
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  • Shooting Star RockmanShooting Star Rockman Jaded Joined: Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭
    I wouldn't risk a straight up dash like that. Then again, I'm not that confident in myself. XD

    Still, since it's a reset that doesn't start up high, it could just be blocked low. Try alternating between that low kick and her overhead (since it's so fast). That'd be your best bet.

    Yes, I have Sekku as an option in case it gets blocked. Also, my initial plan in using that is to throw if the combo before the dash are blocked. I also practiced backdashing with it to increase the options.

    I'm actually a bit more confident in using this if it's offline, since I tried it against someone and it kind of surprised him (he's an inexperienced player though. Using this one someone in the same level as Infiltration is outright suicide). Online is another story though. o_O
  • cg123n1cg123n1 PSN Penguin Joined: Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, I have Sekku as an option in case it gets blocked. Also, my initial plan in using that is to throw if the combo before the dash are blocked. I also practiced backdashing with it to increase the options.

    I'm actually a bit more confident in using this if it's offline, since I tried it against someone and it kind of surprised him (he's an inexperienced player though. Using this one someone in the same level as Infiltration is outright suicide). Online is another story though. o_O

    The backdash would be effective regardless + why expect Infiltration level play? O_o
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  • Shooting Star RockmanShooting Star Rockman Jaded Joined: Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭
    The backdash would be effective regardless + why expect Infiltration level play? o_O

    Who knows, there might be other players I might encounter online who are as good as him. :D

    I tried using this and so far it will only work (the throw part) if the opponent is fully defensive. It will not work against a masher. :(
  • cg123n1cg123n1 PSN Penguin Joined: Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭✭
    Who knows, there might be other players I might encounter online who are as good as him. :D

    I tried using this and so far it will only work (the throw part) if the opponent is fully defensive. It will not work against a masher. :(

    7 frames too good bro.
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  • ReanRean Freebuki Joined: Posts: 606
    Can a player be conditioned to eat this?

    reset with 1 million frames delay inbetween hits?
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  • GenistarGenistar BLARG! Joined: Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭
    reset with 1 million frames delay inbetween hits?


    I think the other person has to be in lala land for that to happen.
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    Can a player be conditioned to eat this?
    Doing a reset into a frametrap is something I often do. But in this case you are using questionable pokes for the frametrap.

    With Juri you used CADC into cr.mk but you should use close standing mk or s.lk/c.lk instead. Why? Because cs.mk blows up throws since it's considered airborne. And s.lk/c.lk is much faster than cr.mk. And against jab mashers raw launcher can work but it takes understanding of frame data, footsies and you need to be good at conditioning someone.

    With Ryu you used the "solar plexus strike" and I might be wrong but I suspect it's because you saw Daigo use that poke a lot in AE 2012 against Infiltration. But you need to realize that the reason Daigo used solar plexus so much was because the last time those two fought each other, Infiltration was going through most of Daigo's hadokens with focus attack dash cancel and punishing him every time. So this time Daigo adjusted and threw a lot of solar plexus to tell Infiltration that he wouldn't get away with focus attacks this time around. Solar plexus hits twice and blows up Focus Attack. There are no focus attacks in SFxT. And although it can work and get you counter hits from time to time, it's probably better to use a faster poke like Ryu's cr.mp or his overhead into switch cancel.

    Your setups won't work unless you understand why they're supposed to work. So I'll explain it a little so you understand the concept better:

    The goal of such a setup is to get a counter hit combo (interrupt the opponent who is pressing buttons). And you get your opponent to press buttons by representing the threat of throw or overhead. In AE, players can do this by simply walking up to someone (pretending you're going for a throw) and then throwing a quick random poke, low crush or airborne move at the last second. If the opponent thought you were going for a throw and decided to tech it, your poke will interrupt and counter the crouch tech attempt, giving you a juicy counter hit. In SFxT, it's basically the same thing except a lot of characters have very slow walk speeds so they can't just walk up and throw as easily. So they use CADC and EX CADC instead to represent the same mixup threat. Note that counter hits give you more frame advantage and allow links that are normally not possible.

    You also need to ask yourself if the reward is worth the risk and if your setup makes any sense.

    For example: Let's say your normal BnB is 400 damage. Now, instead of doing that guaranteed damage, you decide to do a 200 damage CADC reset into a frametrap attempt. Yes, if your counter hit setup works, your end reward will be greater than 400 total damage. However, if you go for a 130 throw, your end reward will be smaller than if you did your normal BnB (only 330 vs 400). If your opponent realizes this, he will know that you are either trying to hunt for a counter hit or do an overhead/low mixup because otherwise you would've gone for max damage. At least that's what I would be thinking. So in such a case, I wouldn't tech I would just try to block low and react to overheads. Because it seems obvious to me that my opponent won't go for a throw because sacrificing 200 guaranteed damage for throw damage doesn't make much sense. (Well, in the current version at least. Because in 2013 I could see myself sacrificing damage to get rid of red life :) )
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  • Shooting Star RockmanShooting Star Rockman Jaded Joined: Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭
    a lot of enlightening stuff

    Wow, that's a lot of good stuff. My original intention of using CADC's after a combo is when my combos get blocked, and then I'll dash in for a throw (or dash out to re-plan), and realized it will become more useful in 2013 since throws will be faster and it gets rid of recoverable health. I just decided to come up with those to see if I could have more use of CADC'ing.

    Regarding Solar Plexus Strike, I didn't watch that Daigo vs Infiltration match and I came up with that by combining two combos that I know (cr.mp, cr.mp, cr.mk xx lk.Joudan and Solar Plexus Strike, hp.Shoryuken).

    With your post I guess I could generate a strategy where I will throw the opponent first after a CADC (if the combo gets blocked, otherwise I'll just complete it), and then use the pokes you have suggested once they think that I'll be coming in for a throw the next time I pull another CADC.

    Oh, and I forgot to say thanks. :)

    Made new ones based on your advice. It seems to have more chance of working this time around. :lol:

    This reset gives the opponent 5-6 frames + forward dash frames to react


    This reset gives the opponent 9 frames to react:


    While this one gives 6 frames + forward dash frames to react
  • ReturnOfSantaReturnOfSanta SALTY SANTA Joined: Posts: 430
    One technique I've been using is a forward moving normal on their wakeup. If you time it right it autocorrects and you follow a roll. Either way you catch them with a meaty. Cody f.mp, Bryan f.mp and Julia b.mp > st.lp target combo I use for this. there's tons more these are just the 3 characters I use
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  • FullMetalRossFullMetalRoss That Hurt! Liar... Joined: Posts: 3,715 ✭✭
    What is the timing on that. Ive been trying to get that shit to work for awhile now with Heihachi and the timing seems really weird to get it to auto correct... Maybe there are setups.
    <<>>
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What is the timing on that. Ive been trying to get that shit to work for awhile now with Heihachi and the timing seems really weird to get it to auto correct... Maybe there are setups.

    This is probably just me, but it seems easier wit moves in the 13-16 frame startup range. The timing for a meaty is the same as the timing for the auto correct. And with moves that have enough range to hit either side, it's pretty neat.

    Doing it with kens overhead is evil as it leads to 500 damage.
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  • FullMetalRossFullMetalRoss That Hurt! Liar... Joined: Posts: 3,715 ✭✭
    hmm Okay, I wonder about doign it with hei, his overhead and low have tons of range seems good!
    <<>>
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    edited February 2013
    I'm currently trying to edit the first post.

    Can anyone confirm that all the stand resets UltraDavid found in vanilla are no longer in the game? I think I read somewhere that Lili's dive kick no longer causes a reset if it hits after a ground bounce. Is this true for all the other ones?

    I put a video from AE where James Chen talks about safe jumping and unblockables. Ignore the unblockable part since those aren't really possible in 2013. But safe jumping is pretty much the same. I might make a small vid to illustrate these in SFxT as well.
    Post edited by Vulcan Hades on
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  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    hmm Okay, I wonder about doign it with hei, his overhead and low have tons of range seems good!

    It won't be meaty.

    The 13-16 frame range makes sense mathematically. A getting up takes 31 frames and a roll takes 31 frames, so a meaty 15-ish frame move would be right at the midpoint of the roll.
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  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm currently trying to edit the first post.

    Can anyone confirm that all the stand resets UltraDavid found in vanilla are no longer in the game? I think I read somewhere that Lili's dive kick no longer causes a reset if it hits after a ground bounce. Is this true for all the other ones?

    I put a video from AE where James Chen talks about safe jumping and unblockables. Ignore the unblockable part since those aren't really possible in 2013. But safe jumping is pretty much the same. I might make a small vid to illustrate these in SFxT as well.
    Bryan's (ironically) and I believe Law's restands survived.  I know Chun and Lili's are gone for sure.
    ~ aka "ninrok" aka "waifufighter" ~
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  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    roknin wrote: »
    Vulcan Hades said:<br />
    I'm currently trying to edit the first post.<br />
    <br />
    Can anyone confirm <br />
    that all the stand resets UltraDavid found in vanilla are no longer in <br />
    the game? I think I read somewhere that Lili's dive kick no longer <br />
    causes a reset if it hits after a ground bounce. Is this true for all <br />
    the other ones?<br />
    <br />
    I put a video from AE where James Chen talks <br />
    about safe jumping and unblockables. Ignore the unblockable part since <br />
    those aren't really possible in 2013. But safe jumping is pretty much <br />
    the same. I might make a small vid to illustrate these in SFxT as well. <br />

    <br />

    <br />

    <br />
    Bryan's (ironically) and I believe Law's restands survived.  I know Chun and Lili's are gone for sure.

    Those weren't based on the multi hit glitch though. All those got patched out.

    Also, at the risk of sounding dumb... Bryan restand?
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  • dropspam777dropspam777 Joined: Posts: 11
    edited February 2013
    31 is for normal rising or for quick rise?
    Post edited by dropspam777 on
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  • ataconaziataconazi Joined: Posts: 579
    Oki is so important in this its ridiculous lol
    Basically the game often boils down to = first hit, solo combo, oki into combo tag cancel, Oki death
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