Concurrent Persona 4 Arena Tier List Discussion

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Comments

  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,396
    she isn't random, but she is hard to keep consistent. You need a few good reads and don't have very much room for errors due to low health.
    我道
  • AceKillahAceKillah behind the scenes Joined: Posts: 15,811
    Liz seems like a matchup dependent character. What I mean by that is she seems to rape some characters (Kanji, Akihiko) but she seems to get wrecked by more characters (Mitsuru, Teddy, Aigis, Yosuke and Yu) yeah those three body everyone.....but still I feels like she struggles to do anything against them. Thanatos is pretty ridiculous though. That said I'm not 100% sure how I feel about her placement but its only week 2 in America so she has tons of time.
    "Smash is the Walmart of fighting games. There's nothing inherently wrong with Walmart, but damned if I don't want 95% of its clientele to burn to death." -Vynce
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    So, I'm thinking that, with the game out, it would be nice for us to come up with our own proper, community driven match up chart for this game. It's something I've always wanted to do, but the other sections that I've modded were for team based games, and there's less emphasis on individual match ups there.

    Went ahead and made a 'filler' chart:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmO7DzQ7vgX2dHEwSW1ZNmNfUHlWcnV5TVZTR0NJa1E

    edit: Added the three worst matchups in the game (via Japan) to the chart. Nothing else should be 7-3 or worse.
    edit2: Added rough impressions of the matchups I have experience with Naoto. Feel free to disagree, especially if your character is on the other end of something.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,581 mod
    Went ahead and made a 'filler' chart:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmO7DzQ7vgX2dHEwSW1ZNmNfUHlWcnV5TVZTR0NJa1E

    edit: Added the three worst matchups in the game (via Japan) to the chart. Nothing else should be 7-3 or worse.
    edit2: Added rough impressions of the matchups I have experience with Naoto. Feel free to disagree, especially if your character is on the other end of something.
    I like the idea of using the colour scales fo indicate matchup quality. Let's use yours instead.

    Also, I'd say Naoto vs Kanji is 5.5:4.5 - 6:4 in Naoto's favor.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,396
    I like the idea of using the colour scales fo indicate matchup quality. Let's use yours instead.

    Also, I'd say Naoto vs Kanji is 5.5:4.5 - 6:4 in Naoto's favor.
    since 1-2 and 8-10 won't show up I'd suggest to make the the "2 Red" the "3 Red" and the old "3 Red" the "4 Red".
    the "9 green" the "7 green" and the "8 Green" the "6 Green".
    我道
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    since 1-2 and 8-10 won't show up I'd suggest to make the the "2 Red" the "3 Red" and the old "3 Red" the "4 Red".
    the "9 green" the "7 green" and the "8 Green" the "6 Green".
    While there's no reason for them to show up right now, better / worse matchups may come about as the game evolves, and I'd rather not have to redo the entire scale just because one matchup evolves to be seen as 8:2. That said, maybe I should do this to accommodate 0.5-point increments?
    I like the idea of using the colour scales fo indicate matchup quality. Let's use yours instead.
    Also, I'd say Naoto vs Kanji is 5.5:4.5 - 6:4 in Naoto's favor.
    Noted, set it as 6:4 in Naoto's favor for now. I wasn't sure if I should put it in as 6 or 6.5. Also, I can and will give you edit permission if you want it.
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I feel like Shadow Labrys vs. Yukiko might have to be a 7.5 or 8 in favor of Shadow...it's just really bad for her, I don't know if Yukiko has anything useful in that matchup.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,581 mod
    While there's no reason for them to show up right now, better / worse matchups may come about as the game evolves, and I'd rather not have to redo the entire scale just because one matchup evolves to be seen as 8:2. That said, maybe I should do this to accommodate 0.5-point increments?


    Noted, set it as 6:4 in Naoto's favor for now. I wasn't sure if I should put it in as 6 or 6.5. Also, I can and will give you edit permission if you want it.
    Sure.

    Actually, we really need some way to vet and check on who's opinions on the chart should be considered.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    Sure.
    Actually, we really need some way to vet and check on who's opinions on the chart should be considered.

    I need an email address to add you to the editors' list, I think, so PM me unless you know another way I can do it.

    Vetting information... has always been an issue with community matchup charts. I vaguely remember the Dustloop community trying to put one together for BBCS and failing because there was no good way to verify information...
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    It's too early to say for sure, but Labrys seems to hate fighting Liz. Labrys can kill her in 2 combos, but she has to actually hit her -_-. I also believe she has ways to get out of some of Labrys' better traps (just from them escaping in matches) but I need to test that further.

    I get the feeling Labrys might be bringing up the rear on some of these charts.
  • Q.E.D.Q.E.D. Joined: Posts: 105
    What I personally think the matchup chart is currently for Mitsuru:

    Aigis: 4-6
    Akihiko: 6-4
    Chie: 5-5 or possibly 4.5-5.5
    Elizabeth: 7-3
    Kanji: 7-3
    Labrys: 6-4
    Naoto: 6-4
    Narukami: 5-5
    S. Labrys: 5.5-4.5
    Teddie: 5.5-4.5, possible 5-5
    Yousuke: 6-4
    Yukiko: 6-4

    DAT 5A.
  • Zerog65Zerog65 skill comes with fun Joined: Posts: 122
    some of the earliest stuff I have seen and played against I have to say I see teddie as a top tier character the rest are pretty balanced the only one I dont really agree on is Akihiko he has the highest damage in the game but suffers greatly against any character with any sort of a projectile and a good keep away. He does especially terrible against Naoto and Kanji. Noato's traps shut down his rush down and Kanji's grabs make it a guessing game on approach. He also suffers on his persona abilities his jump C and standing C are powerful but can be easily dodged and broken and his gravity can help characters like Teddie and Kanji with strong approach moves. If you do use him I advise stacking meter and abuse his jumping B loops with meter he will be able to use ex weave which gives him invincibility and ex corkscrew(for more damage and invincibility). Oh and during kill rush if you hold back B it becomes unblockable but if a enemy hits you it can be stopped.

    @ pfhor that pic........so awesome.
    Anyone can downback but I can quarter circle forward to back for glasses.
    If you don't have fun playing then whats the point?
  • BarzorxBarzorx Joined: Posts: 15
    Im sorry, but Akihiko is far from being A tier. I have been playing him like crazy, and I can say out of the cast, he's probably the worst character in the game.
    Allow me to explain. He has no cr.LP as a low attack. His only low attack, is his sweep, meaning he has less mixups. All of his combos are dependant of his bar, but so is his ability to get in.
    Name me any one character, and I can tell you why he utterly FAILS against him.
    Also, @Zerog, thats not true. Kill Rush B cant be charged. You're talking about his Hook. And it is useless to charge up in a fight, anyway. At least its useless to get in, unless you use a charged Ex Hook that absorbs damage, which has to be done after a kill rush or something else, so there is plenty of time for the enemy to evade, break it, or whatever. Every character in this game has anti rush down options. And he is the only pure rush down character. You do the math.
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 683
    What I personally think the matchup chart is currently for Mitsuru:

    Aigis: 4-6
    Akihiko: 6-4
    Chie: 5-5 or possibly 4.5-5.5
    Elizabeth: 7-3
    Kanji: 7-3
    Labrys: 6-4
    Naoto: 6-4
    Narukami: 5-5
    S. Labrys: 5.5-4.5
    Teddie: 5.5-4.5, possible 5-5
    Yousuke: 6-4
    Yukiko: 6-4

    DAT 5A.
    Any matchup that doesn't show at least 6-4 in her favor is wrong. The character is seriously retarded.

    Also S.Lab with only a 5.5 in Mitsuru's favor? How do you figure that one?
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,581 mod
    Mitsuru is good, but she's not that good.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 683
    Says the Mitsuru main. She certainly doesn't lose to anything, and has all the tools necessary to deal with any situation. The fact that she can play however she wants (zoning, rush down, ect) should be proof of that.
  • D_DollarsD_Dollars the BASED ken Joined: Posts: 1,655
    mitsuru only slightly tough match up is aigis.and mitsuru vs narukami is definitely even. she is good, but people are overreacting if they feel shes good as aigis. although she isn't far behind her at all.

    edit: i do disagree with QED mu vs chie. mitsuru wins that 6-4. chie gets bullied at neutral and mid range. and mitsuru damage is just about comparable to chie's in certain situations ( fatal counter, which isn't hard to get with mitsu ). chie must work hard to get in and stay in which is hard with mitsu's 5a. 2a. 2b. J.a, 5d, 2d, and ofc, her A/B droit which is excellent for setting up her frame trap game. chies saving graces are the fact she can low profile 5a pretty good, but that loses to a few things such as sweep which can get mitsuru started. i feel chie is only at advantage when she knock mitsuru down, especially in corner where her set ups get even stronger.
    ssf4 ae:ken aka da based ken
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  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    I believe Aigis and Teddie are considered the only bad matchups for Mitsuru, with Narukami being 5-5. Chie is definitely not favored versus Mitsuru.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • farplanerfarplaner Joined: Posts: 636
    As a Yukiko player, I feel like she's disadvantaged in most of the matchups (except against a couple who is bad against zoners in general).
  • Q.E.D.Q.E.D. Joined: Posts: 105
    Any matchup that doesn't show at least 6-4 in her favor is wrong. The character is seriously retarded.

    Also S.Lab with only a 5.5 in Mitsuru's favor? How do you figure that one?

    S.Lab has quite good oki setups against Mitsuru, unblockable throw resets against her which you must call out with a DP, she can call out Mitsuru's block strings safely with her DP since her Persona can cover her DP after with a punch and put you out of punish range, hitting the Persona causes hitstop making Coup punishes or reactionary actions against Coup easier to react to, etc. The matchup is still in her favor definitely, because Mitsuru has to only guess much fewer times than Shadow Labrys has to, but she has more tools to deal with Mitsuru than the other 6-4 matchups, so I gave it a 5.5

    I call the Chie matchup even mostly because although she gets bullied in neutral, Chie has amazing tools to whiff punish Mitsuru's horrendously slow recovery time on whiffed pokes. And when she's in and starts pressuring, the biggest problem is that she has very little answers normal wise to jump cancels (I tried testing it out online when I IB'd the sweep, hoping to get a free 2B afterwards, wound up getting CH'd D:) and SFxT dash A pressure. 2A and Sweep low profile, so relying more on 2A cuts off most of Mitsuru's high damaging options. Her Oki pressure isn't bad as long as you delay your tech, but the fact that her block string pressure is really good scares the crap out of me in this matchup specifically. I feel like you have to do a high risk call out in order to get out of it, which is something I don't like relying on during matchups.
  • Zerog65Zerog65 skill comes with fun Joined: Posts: 122
    Im sorry, but Akihiko is far from being A tier. I have been playing him like crazy, and I can say out of the cast, he's probably the worst character in the game.
    Allow me to explain. He has no cr.LP as a low attack. His only low attack, is his sweep, meaning he has less mixups. All of his combos are dependant of his bar, but so is his ability to get in.
    Name me any one character, and I can tell you why he utterly FAILS against him.
    Also, @Zerog, thats not true. Kill Rush B cant be charged. You're talking about his Hook. And it is useless to charge up in a fight, anyway. At least its useless to get in, unless you use a charged Ex Hook that absorbs damage, which has to be done after a kill rush or something else, so there is plenty of time for the enemy to evade, break it, or whatever. Every character in this game has anti rush down options. And he is the only pure rush down character. You do the math.

    I am not disproving that if anything I agree completely in most of the major tier list Akihiko is dead last or at least the ones I have seen. I wasnt talking bout his kill rush being charged but his boomerang hook during the kill rush if you dont use it constantly it can at times catch people off guard. Also despite people saying his C is useless I find his jump C to gave some interesting zone options.
    Anyone can downback but I can quarter circle forward to back for glasses.
    If you don't have fun playing then whats the point?
  • BarzorxBarzorx Joined: Posts: 15
    @Zerog Akihiko is certainly last, since has the least tools to "get in". There isn't a single character I can call an even match against in this game. Well. Akihiko, I suppose.

    And his j. C is certainly a good tool since its a fast overhead, but its not hard to punish when blocked. Considering a lot of characters have attacks like that that arent as easy to punish, I'd say it's still not good enough.

    I love the character, from both the series and this game, but having lost my 80th consecutive match since reaching A+ and dropping back to C, I am growing tired of how helpless he is in ALL matchups.
  • SubjectiveSubjective Joined: Posts: 171
    Someone on Dustloop had a good point about the overall balance... those in the cast who are supposed to be zoners have weak defensive options (Elizabeth, Yukiko), the supposed rushdown characters have weak mixup potential (Kanji, Akihiko), and the all around characters have no real weakness at all (Mitsuru, Teddie).

    I'm fucking around online with Teddie and winning a lot of matches just by randomness. He's one of the better characters for sure
  • BarzorxBarzorx Joined: Posts: 15
    Kanji definitely has mixup potentials. At the very least, high-low mixups. And if he corners you, he's unstoppable. Try to jump? Get air grabbed. Try evasive maneuver? Ground grab. Hop? Chair attack to air grab. R-Action? His grab AND his own R-Action go through them. Stand still for a sec to assess the situation? Grab, grab super if awakened, etc. He also has a bunch of options to "test the waters" before doing anything.
  • DocCeaserDocCeaser Joined: Posts: 296
    Im sorry, but Akihiko is far from being A tier. I have been playing him like crazy, and I can say out of the cast, he's probably the worst character in the game.
    Allow me to explain. He has no cr.LP as a low attack. His only low attack, is his sweep, meaning he has less mixups. All of his combos are dependant of his bar, but so is his ability to get in.
    Name me any one character, and I can tell you why he utterly FAILS against him.
    Also, @Zerog, thats not true. Kill Rush B cant be charged. You're talking about his Hook. And it is useless to charge up in a fight, anyway. At least its useless to get in, unless you use a charged Ex Hook that absorbs damage, which has to be done after a kill rush or something else, so there is plenty of time for the enemy to evade, break it, or whatever. Every character in this game has anti rush down options. And he is the only pure rush down character. You do the math.
    I agree that Akihiko is far from A-tier and I think he might be bottom 4. It's too early for me to say for sure. I think his mix-ups are actually not that bad. You can easily make opponents fear the low option if you show it to them enough. His ex dash cross-up is impossible to react to. He is very dependent on meter to do things though. My biggest gripe with him is his normals. They aren't bad but seriously lack the range to compete with most of the cast.
  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,951
    to me labry is bottom tier due to the fact she has no real advantage except the ability to build a sub resource around her axe level that can be cross over to rounds. But her axe level is not very consistent so she has to commit to certain style which make her very telegraphic at times. Besides that everyone else can do what she does better.
    Seikuken Disciple
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  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    to me labry is bottom tier due to the fact she has no real advantage except the ability to build a sub resource around her axe level that can be cross over to rounds. But her axe level is not very consistent so she has to commit to certain style which make her very telegraphic at times. Besides that everyone else can do what she does better.

    I don't know, fatal counters are a big part of her game and she can get them from many random hits and convert into huge damage. I don't think anyone else can do it nearly as well.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • AD A DGLGMUTAD A DGLGMUT OOOOHHHHH YEEEEEEAH! Joined: Posts: 11
    Akihiko is far from A tier in my opinion. Teddie is definitely not A tier either if you ask me. Also, I firmly believe Yukikio is way underrated. I main Mitsuru, but I've had some real success with Yukiko online. Plus, Yukiko is so much fun to use.
    PSN: ASK3P1OS.
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    S.Lab has quite good oki setups against Mitsuru, unblockable throw resets against her which you must call out with a DP, she can call out Mitsuru's block strings safely with her DP since her Persona can cover her DP after with a punch and put you out of punish range

    The punch(I assume you mean 5C and not the qcfx2+C punch super) can't save Shadow Labrys after a blocked R-action unless it's done way early, which you won't get a chance to setup if Mitsuru is in your face. Also players with reactions will cancel their strings into R-action if they see her R-action. At low level play, everything you say might work because the players don't recognize a lot of things.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,581 mod
    IMO, online experiences should be taken with a grain of salt for balance.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • SesshaZLSesshaZL 春麗 豪鬼 Joined: Posts: 1,028
    rushing...mixups...eh personally I feel the pressure game in this fighter is really weak compared to other games.
    50/50 post Hyoukusen mixup is dirty!!
    Way more dangerous than outsiders perspective, "low forward super, yawn, I play better games" - WTF-AKUMA-HAX
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,396
    rushing...mixups...eh personally I feel the pressure game in this fighter is really weak compared to other games.
    It has a good pressure game, but also decent defense options (DP mainly, dodge mobility etc), because of that it might seem this way to you.
    我道
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    rushing...mixups...eh personally I feel the pressure game in this fighter is really weak compared to other games.

    I don't want to jump to conclusions about your skill/experience level with the game, but when you first start out it can seem like bursts/DPs/mashing out of pressure are very strong. However, once you learn how to bait and punish each of these options, you will realize that they all carry a high degree of risk, and it's actually the attacker who has the advantage. For example, Mitsuru's DP has something like 8 frames of startup, but on day 1 I would've called that move overpowered. Also, you may not be used to the movement options or blockstrings yet which make it easier for you to get in and stay in. P4A is, overall, a very quick and aggressive game.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    It has a good pressure game, but also decent defense options (DP mainly, dodge mobility etc), because of that it might seem this way to you.

    Is it just me or does dodge have startup vulnerability frames? I couldn't really use it on reaction to dodge anything except full screen projectiles. It definitely doesn't seem to work like kof's rolls.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • SesshaZLSesshaZL 春麗 豪鬼 Joined: Posts: 1,028
    I don't want to jump to conclusions about your skill/experience level with the game, but when you first start out it can seem like bursts/DPs/mashing out of pressure are very strong. However, once you learn how to bait and punish each of these options, you will realize that they all carry a high degree of risk, and it's actually the attacker who has the advantage. For example, Mitsuru's DP has something like 8 frames of startup, but on day 1 I would've called that move overpowered. Also, you may not be used to the movement options or blockstrings yet which make it easier for you to get in and stay in. P4A is, overall, a very quick and aggressive game.
    Im not talking about mashing out or R action out or bursts, Im talking when someone is in my face I dont feel pressured at all, also moves are slow to me. I dont feel there are strong mixups, but that may have to do with me not facing someone really good yet.

    i still like the game, dont get me wrong.
    50/50 post Hyoukusen mixup is dirty!!
    Way more dangerous than outsiders perspective, "low forward super, yawn, I play better games" - WTF-AKUMA-HAX
  • Faro7DFaro7D Joined: Posts: 2
    Any matchup that doesn't show at least 6-4 in her favor is wrong. The character is seriously retarded.

    Also S.Lab with only a 5.5 in Mitsuru's favor? How do you figure that one?
    What does all this 7:3, 5:5 stuff mean? Does a 7:3 matchup mean that they should win 7 out of 10 matches in theory?
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    What does all this 7:3, 5:5 stuff mean? Does a 7:3 matchup mean that they should win 7 out of 10 matches in theory?

    Yes
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • AlzarathAlzarath Remember, salt is part of a balanced diet. Joined: Posts: 3,536
    Is it just me or does dodge have startup vulnerability frames? I couldn't really use it on reaction to dodge anything except full screen projectiles. It definitely doesn't seem to work like kof's rolls.

    Dodge has 2F startup vulnerability
    "For the amount of new players who play FGs, you won’t see nearly enough new talent in top 8s. This is because too many people are bitches." - Aris

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  • Master_ChibiMaster_Chibi .: Dynamites! :. Joined: Posts: 15,043 mod
    I believe Aigis and Teddie are considered the only bad matchups for Mitsuru, with Narukami being 5-5. Chie is definitely not favored versus Mitsuru.

    Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee go into detail on why Teddie is a bad match up, I'd love to know because I'd play him in a second to annoy the Mits' around here.

    Oh it'd be glorious~
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee go into detail on why Teddie is a bad match up, I'd love to know because I'd play him in a second to annoy the Mits' around here.

    Oh it'd be glorious~

    I'm not a Teddie player, so take this with a grain of salt, but these seem like major points:
    • Teddie's 5B beats Mitsuru's ground pokes.
    • Teddie's R-Action gets him out of okizeme setups

    Unrelated PS: If you think a matchup other than the three on the chart as 7:3 is 7:3, or think anything is worse than 7:3, you're probably wrong.
  • IlluminatiIlluminati Gnosis is the law. Gnosis under skill. Joined: Posts: 102
    Oh it'd be glorious~

    to follow up on Narcowski's post:

    *236 (C/D/C+D)>teleport mix ups are great for getting in on her.
    (236C+D>236236D at the end of the match for the lols)

    *22(A/B/A+B) her charge dash will pass over(depending on spacing), leaving her open for combos/throws.

    *teddie can stay in the air for awhile and evade her D with well timed 236(A/B/A+B).

    *his D items really throws her momentum off.

    *he is a boy?! in a bear suit... who loves to cross dress... i mean come the fuck on... too stronk lol

    feel free to correct me but that's what i have noticed thus far.
    ^^(;,,; )^^ BB: Arakune, Platinum / GG: Faust, Zappa / P4: Kuma / TTT2: DJ, Hei, Kaz / VS: Zabel (ʳ ´º㉨º)ʳ
  • DullyannaDullyanna mm hmm... nope Joined: Posts: 1,160
    I can't comment much on Teddie vs Mitsu at this point, but 5B can easily lose to dash 5A or [4]6A if it isn't placed properly.
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  • lolokoalolokoa [D-Tier] Joined: Posts: 33
    after local long set with a friend
    gonna say Aigis Vs Yukiko is 6:4

    Aigis 5D can counter-atttack Yukiko Zoning tools
    Missle can cover Aigis approach
    2B can easily kill Yukiko Persona and other specials involving bullets
    Yukiko DP sucks -if aigis is in orgia mode she could just boost>Then block after hitting the Dia Guardpoint

    Aigis Damage>Yukiko Health
  • farplanerfarplaner Joined: Posts: 636
    after local long set with a friend
    gonna say Aigis Vs Yukiko is 6:4

    Aigis 5D can counter-atttack Yukiko Zoning tools
    Missle can cover Aigis approach
    2B can easily kill Yukiko Persona and other specials involving bullets
    Yukiko DP sucks -if aigis is in orgia mode she could just boost>Then block after hitting the Dia Guardpoint

    Aigis Damage>Yukiko Health

    from your comment it doesn't sound like a 6-4, it sounds worse lol... is there anything Yukiko can do?
  • lolokoalolokoa [D-Tier] Joined: Posts: 33
    Aigis 5D has rather long start-up and recovery
    she can't use this when under pressure
    if you read it correctly you take a card from Aigis

    and without the 5D Covering her she can't do missile safely

    Agi Oki is still strong against Aigis

    Rolling against 2B is free a punish for Yukiko

    you need watch her orgia gauge carefully and attack when its low
    I believe one thing common to any match-up against Aigis making her overheat.

    no orgia = no offense for Aigis
  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,808 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    You need good fundamentals to be really b.s. with Mitsuru.
    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    After reviewing the Teddie/Mitsuru matchup some more and talking to some actual Teddie players, I am inclined to say that it's not as good for Teddie as people have been saying, but rather a slight advantage for Teddie or, more likely, even. Nerdjosh actually said that he thought it was 4-6 in Mitsuru's favor, but I haven't heard anyone else put it that far in her favor.
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    After reviewing the Teddie/Mitsuru matchup some more and talking to some actual Teddie players, I am inclined to say that it's not as good for Teddie as people have been saying, but rather a slight advantage for Teddie or, more likely, even. Nerdjosh actually said that he thought it was 4-6 in Mitsuru's favor, but I haven't heard anyone else put it that far in her favor.

    Well based on that recent stream from Sabin, Nerdjosh looked like a fairly "new" Teddie player. The only people that should be used as reference for matchup charts are the japanese.
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    Like I said, I haven't heard anyone else put it in MItsuru's favor, let alone 6-4 for her. She has decent tools to fight him, though, and her hit/throw mixup and instant overhead all still work; she just doesn't win at neutral. Teddie's counter apparently cannot be timed to beat sweep feint throw and sweep feint 5[B.] at the same time (not sure about sweep feint 5B).
  • DullyannaDullyanna mm hmm... nope Joined: Posts: 1,160
    This is why it's way too fucking early for us to be trying to make a real matchup chart or such until people really know what they're doing and better understand their characters, their matchups and the game as a whole.

    Discussion is cool though. Mitsu doesn't get away with her pokes quite as easily as she does against other characters from my exp, but she doesn't have to go way out of her way to deal with Teddie 5B like some characters do. Even if Teddie can time his counter in a way that beats both throw and 5B (Its activation window is pretty fucking short lol) after sweep feint or w/e, all it takes is a slight delay from Mitsuru and he's losing half his life anyways.

    This game isn't particularly difficult, but matchups are so important that creating a legitimate chart will take time anyways.
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