Concurrent Persona 4 Arena Tier List Discussion

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  • SesshaZLSesshaZL 春麗 豪鬼 Joined: Posts: 1,028
    rushing...mixups...eh personally I feel the pressure game in this fighter is really weak compared to other games.
    50/50 post Hyoukusen mixup is dirty!!
    Way more dangerous than outsiders perspective, "low forward super, yawn, I play better games" - WTF-AKUMA-HAX
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,396
    rushing...mixups...eh personally I feel the pressure game in this fighter is really weak compared to other games.
    It has a good pressure game, but also decent defense options (DP mainly, dodge mobility etc), because of that it might seem this way to you.
    我道
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    rushing...mixups...eh personally I feel the pressure game in this fighter is really weak compared to other games.

    I don't want to jump to conclusions about your skill/experience level with the game, but when you first start out it can seem like bursts/DPs/mashing out of pressure are very strong. However, once you learn how to bait and punish each of these options, you will realize that they all carry a high degree of risk, and it's actually the attacker who has the advantage. For example, Mitsuru's DP has something like 8 frames of startup, but on day 1 I would've called that move overpowered. Also, you may not be used to the movement options or blockstrings yet which make it easier for you to get in and stay in. P4A is, overall, a very quick and aggressive game.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    It has a good pressure game, but also decent defense options (DP mainly, dodge mobility etc), because of that it might seem this way to you.

    Is it just me or does dodge have startup vulnerability frames? I couldn't really use it on reaction to dodge anything except full screen projectiles. It definitely doesn't seem to work like kof's rolls.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • SesshaZLSesshaZL 春麗 豪鬼 Joined: Posts: 1,028
    I don't want to jump to conclusions about your skill/experience level with the game, but when you first start out it can seem like bursts/DPs/mashing out of pressure are very strong. However, once you learn how to bait and punish each of these options, you will realize that they all carry a high degree of risk, and it's actually the attacker who has the advantage. For example, Mitsuru's DP has something like 8 frames of startup, but on day 1 I would've called that move overpowered. Also, you may not be used to the movement options or blockstrings yet which make it easier for you to get in and stay in. P4A is, overall, a very quick and aggressive game.
    Im not talking about mashing out or R action out or bursts, Im talking when someone is in my face I dont feel pressured at all, also moves are slow to me. I dont feel there are strong mixups, but that may have to do with me not facing someone really good yet.

    i still like the game, dont get me wrong.
    50/50 post Hyoukusen mixup is dirty!!
    Way more dangerous than outsiders perspective, "low forward super, yawn, I play better games" - WTF-AKUMA-HAX
  • Faro7DFaro7D Joined: Posts: 2
    Any matchup that doesn't show at least 6-4 in her favor is wrong. The character is seriously retarded.

    Also S.Lab with only a 5.5 in Mitsuru's favor? How do you figure that one?
    What does all this 7:3, 5:5 stuff mean? Does a 7:3 matchup mean that they should win 7 out of 10 matches in theory?
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    What does all this 7:3, 5:5 stuff mean? Does a 7:3 matchup mean that they should win 7 out of 10 matches in theory?

    Yes
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • AlzarathAlzarath Remember, salt is part of a balanced diet. Joined: Posts: 3,537
    Is it just me or does dodge have startup vulnerability frames? I couldn't really use it on reaction to dodge anything except full screen projectiles. It definitely doesn't seem to work like kof's rolls.

    Dodge has 2F startup vulnerability
    "For the amount of new players who play FGs, you won’t see nearly enough new talent in top 8s. This is because too many people are bitches." - Aris

    PSN: not_alzarath (East Coast) | @AlzarathEX
  • Master_ChibiMaster_Chibi .: Dynamites! :. Joined: Posts: 15,066 mod
    I believe Aigis and Teddie are considered the only bad matchups for Mitsuru, with Narukami being 5-5. Chie is definitely not favored versus Mitsuru.

    Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee go into detail on why Teddie is a bad match up, I'd love to know because I'd play him in a second to annoy the Mits' around here.

    Oh it'd be glorious~
    ~*Hai! Back to Japan!
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee go into detail on why Teddie is a bad match up, I'd love to know because I'd play him in a second to annoy the Mits' around here.

    Oh it'd be glorious~

    I'm not a Teddie player, so take this with a grain of salt, but these seem like major points:
    • Teddie's 5B beats Mitsuru's ground pokes.
    • Teddie's R-Action gets him out of okizeme setups

    Unrelated PS: If you think a matchup other than the three on the chart as 7:3 is 7:3, or think anything is worse than 7:3, you're probably wrong.
  • IlluminatiIlluminati Gnosis is the law. Gnosis under skill. Joined: Posts: 102
    Oh it'd be glorious~

    to follow up on Narcowski's post:

    *236 (C/D/C+D)>teleport mix ups are great for getting in on her.
    (236C+D>236236D at the end of the match for the lols)

    *22(A/B/A+B) her charge dash will pass over(depending on spacing), leaving her open for combos/throws.

    *teddie can stay in the air for awhile and evade her D with well timed 236(A/B/A+B).

    *his D items really throws her momentum off.

    *he is a boy?! in a bear suit... who loves to cross dress... i mean come the fuck on... too stronk lol

    feel free to correct me but that's what i have noticed thus far.
    ^^(;,,; )^^ BB: Arakune, Platinum / GG: Faust, Zappa / P4: Kuma / TTT2: DJ, Hei, Kaz / VS: Zabel (ʳ ´º㉨º)ʳ
  • DullyannaDullyanna mm hmm... nope Joined: Posts: 1,160
    I can't comment much on Teddie vs Mitsu at this point, but 5B can easily lose to dash 5A or [4]6A if it isn't placed properly.
    "Making Yun strong on purpose was naturally a dick move"

    "3S is a hidden gem."

    "SFIV series... kept the matches very technical because there was very few downtimes, even when you are dominated."
  • lolokoalolokoa [D-Tier] Joined: Posts: 33
    after local long set with a friend
    gonna say Aigis Vs Yukiko is 6:4

    Aigis 5D can counter-atttack Yukiko Zoning tools
    Missle can cover Aigis approach
    2B can easily kill Yukiko Persona and other specials involving bullets
    Yukiko DP sucks -if aigis is in orgia mode she could just boost>Then block after hitting the Dia Guardpoint

    Aigis Damage>Yukiko Health
  • farplanerfarplaner Joined: Posts: 636
    after local long set with a friend
    gonna say Aigis Vs Yukiko is 6:4

    Aigis 5D can counter-atttack Yukiko Zoning tools
    Missle can cover Aigis approach
    2B can easily kill Yukiko Persona and other specials involving bullets
    Yukiko DP sucks -if aigis is in orgia mode she could just boost>Then block after hitting the Dia Guardpoint

    Aigis Damage>Yukiko Health

    from your comment it doesn't sound like a 6-4, it sounds worse lol... is there anything Yukiko can do?
  • lolokoalolokoa [D-Tier] Joined: Posts: 33
    Aigis 5D has rather long start-up and recovery
    she can't use this when under pressure
    if you read it correctly you take a card from Aigis

    and without the 5D Covering her she can't do missile safely

    Agi Oki is still strong against Aigis

    Rolling against 2B is free a punish for Yukiko

    you need watch her orgia gauge carefully and attack when its low
    I believe one thing common to any match-up against Aigis making her overheat.

    no orgia = no offense for Aigis
  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,810 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    You need good fundamentals to be really b.s. with Mitsuru.
    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    After reviewing the Teddie/Mitsuru matchup some more and talking to some actual Teddie players, I am inclined to say that it's not as good for Teddie as people have been saying, but rather a slight advantage for Teddie or, more likely, even. Nerdjosh actually said that he thought it was 4-6 in Mitsuru's favor, but I haven't heard anyone else put it that far in her favor.
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    After reviewing the Teddie/Mitsuru matchup some more and talking to some actual Teddie players, I am inclined to say that it's not as good for Teddie as people have been saying, but rather a slight advantage for Teddie or, more likely, even. Nerdjosh actually said that he thought it was 4-6 in Mitsuru's favor, but I haven't heard anyone else put it that far in her favor.

    Well based on that recent stream from Sabin, Nerdjosh looked like a fairly "new" Teddie player. The only people that should be used as reference for matchup charts are the japanese.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    Like I said, I haven't heard anyone else put it in MItsuru's favor, let alone 6-4 for her. She has decent tools to fight him, though, and her hit/throw mixup and instant overhead all still work; she just doesn't win at neutral. Teddie's counter apparently cannot be timed to beat sweep feint throw and sweep feint 5[B.] at the same time (not sure about sweep feint 5B).
  • DullyannaDullyanna mm hmm... nope Joined: Posts: 1,160
    This is why it's way too fucking early for us to be trying to make a real matchup chart or such until people really know what they're doing and better understand their characters, their matchups and the game as a whole.

    Discussion is cool though. Mitsu doesn't get away with her pokes quite as easily as she does against other characters from my exp, but she doesn't have to go way out of her way to deal with Teddie 5B like some characters do. Even if Teddie can time his counter in a way that beats both throw and 5B (Its activation window is pretty fucking short lol) after sweep feint or w/e, all it takes is a slight delay from Mitsuru and he's losing half his life anyways.

    This game isn't particularly difficult, but matchups are so important that creating a legitimate chart will take time anyways.
    "Making Yun strong on purpose was naturally a dick move"

    "3S is a hidden gem."

    "SFIV series... kept the matches very technical because there was very few downtimes, even when you are dominated."
  • IlluminatiIlluminati Gnosis is the law. Gnosis under skill. Joined: Posts: 102
    agreed, time will sort out all out but, he has the tools to deal with her in the favor of mobility and utility(teddie can inflict every aliment besides charm, give himself sp ect)... its all in how you use them. she in my opinion can play a better game of patience...
    ^^(;,,; )^^ BB: Arakune, Platinum / GG: Faust, Zappa / P4: Kuma / TTT2: DJ, Hei, Kaz / VS: Zabel (ʳ ´º㉨º)ʳ
  • Zerog65Zerog65 skill comes with fun Joined: Posts: 122
    Akihiko is far from A tier in my opinion. Teddie is definitely not A tier either if you ask me. Also, I firmly believe Yukikio is way underrated. I main Mitsuru, but I've had some real success with Yukiko online. Plus, Yukiko is so much fun to use.

    oh no trust me he is definetly not A tier his mix-ups are non existent and his persona only has two uses honestly when you play you are just mainly just playing with akihikio. Now Akihiko has darn good damage in fact the best in the game if you can keep the presure on and stay on the opponent you can win but if the opponent has a good furious attack or a burst be prepared to suffer getting back in. Teddie for darn sure is he has great mixups has multiple hits for one button press and his persona abilities are strong his furious action in fact makes the opponent unable to guard. Teddie also has items that even if you have this man in a super his items will stay on the field and still hurt you I literally lost to a teddie I was killing with a cyclone upper when his item hit me while I was hitting him and killed me. Yukiko is a strong keep away who can do great combos with great mix-ups Mitsuru is amazing with good presure safe stabs and in my opinion the best furious attack in the game cause its 360 hit box with like 0 start frames that thing can stop all furious attacks and some supers.

    @keo-bas labrys is okay she had okay damage and health her persona abilities are okay she is probably mid tier shadow lab on the other hand......................whew that chick scares me I have tried my 3 mains against her and its tough cause her persona doesnt break normally its separate from her as well so you have to worry bout cross ups and lock downs and man the damage is so good.

    @doc ceaser he is definetly low his cross up is solid a good combo that will do at least 60 % health is kill rush to ex boomerang hood now do duck/weave and corkscrew this will cause a wall bounce which you can use to either A double upper into mazidyne (have to be awakened) B try to start a new combo (be careful cause they can air recover if you dont have the timing down or burst) or C cyclone upper.

    @ barzorx this man just suffers in this game he overall is terrible the only thing that keeps him from being a non used character is his popularity and his damage. I can say this though if you are good at guessing opponents you can cause them to think bout what they gonna do.

    For all Akihiko players if you are awakened you can use his double upper and as soon as the second hit hits use maziodyne and it will always hit damage aint great but this might allow you to get in on opponents easier.

    one last thing teddie is definetly the best in the game in my opinion because his basic normals can stop counters and some furious actions.

    sorry for the long post had alot I wanted to say.
    Anyone can downback but I can quarter circle forward to back for glasses.
    If you don't have fun playing then whats the point?
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    lol at the akihiko crying going on in here. The dude has 10000 health and hits like a truck. He has a damn near invisible crossup for 25 meter which forces you to respect him, making his frame traps scary as fuck. Zoning characters actually have nothing that can scare him at full screen, and once Aki players actually realize this and start blocking while inching forward rather than slamming their palms on all 4 buttons they will be much more successful. Heaven forbid he gets a life lead on Yukiko or Elizabeth early... watching those characters try and make up a deficit against him is just agonizing.

    Akihiko is a damn good character in the right hands. It sounds like you guys just need to learn patience
  • NyoronoruNyoronoru Vocaloid DLC Joined: Posts: 1,647
    I am really not sure if Yukiko is top tier or not. Guess that shows how balanced she is!
    Life is too short to waste not trying your best!
  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    Top8 SBO was:
    2 mitsuru
    2 akihiko
    1 chie
    1 naoto
    1 teddie
    1 yukiko

    mitsuru is not a surprise. maybe japanese just suck against akihiko? or maybe you guys need to step your shit up?

    inb4 - one tournament doesnt mean anything
  • Swedish ChefSwedish Chef Cream of the Crop! Joined: Posts: 8,807
    You need good fundamentals to be really b.s. with Mitsuru.
    You could actually argue this for every character in the game, although I believe that Mitsuru and Yu are the most prime examples of this in the game.
    TAKING YOU PUNKS DOWN!!!
    ^Bubbleberry_VII you are so godlike for making this.
  • DocCeaserDocCeaser Joined: Posts: 297
    Top8 SBO was:
    2 mitsuru
    2 akihiko
    1 chie
    1 naoto
    1 teddie
    1 yukiko

    mitsuru is not a surprise. maybe japanese just suck against akihiko? or maybe you guys need to step your shit up?

    inb4 - one tournament doesnt mean anything
    This game is balanced enough for any character to be in top 8.
    lol at the akihiko crying going on in here. The dude has 10000 health and hits like a truck. He has a damn near invisible crossup for 25 meter which forces you to respect him, making his frame traps scary as fuck. Zoning characters actually have nothing that can scare him at full screen, and once Aki players actually realize this and start blocking while inching forward rather than slamming their palms on all 4 buttons they will be much more successful. Heaven forbid he gets a life lead on Yukiko or Elizabeth early... watching those characters try and make up a deficit against him is just agonizing.

    Akihiko is a damn good character in the right hands. It sounds like you guys just need to learn patience
    I don't think akihiko sucks and I do just fine with him. I don't see him having match-ups that are better than even though. Yeah, characters don't really scare him from fullscreen but eventually he has to get closer and deal with their superior ranged normals. The tough part for me is the mid range battle. When played right Akihiko can win against any character but that is not enough for me to believe he is A-tier yet. Again, it's too early for me to say where I truly think he belongs.
  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    tier list from players with months of experience list him as A tier
    results from the biggest p4 tournament to date backing that claim

    vs

    a few players with a couple weeks of experience

    Do you see why the akihiko QQ is a bit hard to take seriously?
  • DocCeaserDocCeaser Joined: Posts: 297
    tier list from players with months of experience list him as A tier
    results from the biggest p4 tournament to date backing that claim

    vs

    a few players with a couple weeks of experience

    Do you see why the akihiko QQ is a bit hard to take seriously?
    I understand that. Like I said, my opinion is an early one so I can admit that I could easily be wrong. Tier lists change very often. In a year, Yosuke could be considered the best character. American players and Japanese players disagree on tiers in other games so it's possible that in time that could happen in this game.
  • LuscheLusche gets pwnd by scrubs Joined: Posts: 283
    I understand that. Like I said, my opinion is an early one so I can admit that I could easily be wrong.
    Don't worry ... the first few weeks in JP the pp also said Akihiko was the 2nd worst char ...
    It took a few months until pp figured him out and hes moving up since then.
    not even worth to be called a scrub ...
  • AceKillahAceKillah behind the scenes Joined: Posts: 15,813
    Going by matchups I'd say Akihiko is probably bottom 5 since he doesn't really beat anyone convincingly and he loses to Kanji, Yukiko and possibly Naoto. He's still pretty solid to me.

    Oh and if your gonna try and invalidate what someone else is saying could you please add more to your argument than "BUT JAPAN HAS X AS A-TIER SO YOUR WRONG" cause it kinda makes you look stupid and defeats the purpose of discussing the actual strengths and weaknesses of the character.
    "Smash is the Walmart of fighting games. There's nothing inherently wrong with Walmart, but damned if I don't want 95% of its clientele to burn to death." -Vynce
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Would people mind if we talked Labrys a bit? Someone said earlier that she does not do anything the rest of the cast does better, and while I do not think this is completely true it does raise an interesting question. She has her absurd Red axe things, an excellent oki game, and several tools to stay (though few to get) in. Even so, it seems like the rest of the cast can just do everything else even better. Is there a chance for Labby, that high level play is just largely ignoring her for flashier characters?

    Just a little irked because it seems every game the initial character I choose to play is bottom tier, and while my level of play (bad) makes that not mean much, and am thinking to maybe retire her for the time being for Akihiko (though he looks VERY noob unfriendly).

    Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Labrys can win. Any character can win. One of the main reasons you don't see Labrys winning anything is because she's not appealing to very many top players. She doesn't have many great options and she plays fairly defensively, which makes her an incredibly basic character in an otherwise complex game. Shadow Labrys has more style, Chie has better mixups, Kanji has more damage. This doesn't mean that Labrys is strictly weaker than those characters, but it means top players aren't experimenting and finding tech with her as much as those characters.

    Kanji is considered the weakest character in Japan, but I think most NA players would disagree, for the same reason: Japanese players hate grapplers and NA players love them, and we're the ones who develop the tech for them. If someone comes along and figures out how to utilize Labrys to her full potential, I have no doubt that she'll be just as competitive as Akihiko. They're not incredibly different characters, after all.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Yeah. Outside the accent, I was initially attracted to her kind of By the Book style, seemed easier to learn the game with. Course, same story with me and Paul Phoenix in sfxt.

    Defensively? I have always played her highly aggressively. Care to elaborate?

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  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    She's a pretty reactive character, maybe the most reactive character in the game, since you don't have good mobility or mixup potential, and most of the cast will body you with low Axe gauge. Your DP is also too unreliable to get you out of trouble. From what I can tell, her specialty seems to be controlling space and limiting the opponent's options until they do something stupid, so you'll spend a lot of time blocking and throwing out big moves like jB and 5C. At yellow/red axe your moves become much safer, so that's the only time when you can really be aggressive.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    I can see that for the most part. I assumed you meant she had good defensive options, which is a definite no. Above all, I believe that she is an okizeme based character, so even without red axe with a knockdown or two she is incredibly dangerous. Another thing you forgot to mention is how amazing her Sword special is.

    As for tier stuff with her, I read somewhere else another interesting tidbit. It is not so much that she is a bad character, but overall she matches up poorly with most if not all the cast. I guess the Akihiko whiners were saying something similar with him?

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  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Isn't matching up poorly with most of the cast what defines a bad character?

    Anyway, not sure if that's true, she's just got untapped potential and I don't see many people playing her patiently enough. Having good oki doesn't make her a rushdown character, everybody gets their oki in different ways. And as for matchups, she probably struggles most with Mitsuru (who doesn't?) and zoners, so her best matchups are mostly within the mid-top tiers.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,810 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    You could actually argue this for every character in the game, although I believe that Mitsuru and Yu are the most prime examples of this in the game.
    It's amplified by how much more bland her tool set looks on paper compared to everybody else.
    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
  • IlluminatiIlluminati Gnosis is the law. Gnosis under skill. Joined: Posts: 102
    since Stang posted the top 8 here is the full list of everyone who qualified

    11 mitsuru
    9 aigis
    9 chie
    9 yu
    6 teddie
    4 akihiko
    4 yukiko
    3 s.lab
    2 liz
    1 kanji
    1 lab
    1 naoto
    1 yosuke
    ^^(;,,; )^^ BB: Arakune, Platinum / GG: Faust, Zappa / P4: Kuma / TTT2: DJ, Hei, Kaz / VS: Zabel (ʳ ´º㉨º)ʳ
  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    2 liz
    1 kanji
    1 lab
    1 naoto
    1 yosuke

    That's no surprise. That's pretty much the consensus on low tier right? Naoto is a bit of a surprise but I guess that is due to smp loop being discovered after everyone qualified.
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