Concurrent Persona 4 Arena Tier List Discussion

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  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    Where can I find the results for SBO that goes beyond the top 8? I'm curious how well the 3 S.lab players did.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    Can anyone tell me what options 'Liz has against Teddie rushing her down? Yesterday at casuals, my friend said that he felt like it he was going up against the twins in AE 2011 when up against my Teddie.
  • Nitro NoodlezNitro Noodlez ヽ(*゚д゚)ノ Joined: Posts: 5,878
    2 liz
    1 kanji
    1 lab
    1 naoto
    1 yosuke

    That's no surprise. That's pretty much the consensus on low tier right? Naoto is a bit of a surprise but I guess that is due to smp loop being discovered after everyone qualified.
    Even with the SMP loop I feel as though Naoto still belongs in the lower end of the tier list(bottom 3 imo). It doesn't really fix her match up issues or her flaws. It does however give her a great comeback factor and something your opponent to be afraid of.
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Is it really? I thought Kanji was looking real strong now in the hands of American grapplers, and I do not see how Yosuke can be considered so low.

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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    ...I do not see how Yosuke can be considered so low.
    Because you can do more for less with other characters.
  • Nitro NoodlezNitro Noodlez ヽ(*゚д゚)ノ Joined: Posts: 5,878
    Because you can do more for less with other characters.
    While this is probably true(for about 3 other characters) Yosuke isn't a low tier character. He's usually placed high up on the tier lists.
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Because you can do more for less with other characters.

    Ugh. That seems to be a common theme with any character I pick in any fighter. Maybe I should swallow my pride and use Mitsuru to relive my Kaijin no Soki days.

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  • shin neferioshin neferio BEHOLD! Joined: Posts: 812

    1 kanji
    lol at least there was one good player
    5th King of Tetris
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    Ugh. That seems to be a common theme with any character I pick in any fighter. Maybe I should swallow my pride and use Mitsuru to relive my Kaijin no Soki days.

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    Mitsuru only really has 2 lopsided (7:3) matchups in her favor, the rest are mostly 6:4s and a couple of 4:6s.
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Ugh. That seems to be a common theme with any character I pick in any fighter. Maybe I should swallow my pride and use Mitsuru to relive my Kaijin no Soki days.

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    Why do you care so much about tier lists? No offense, but unless you're competing at a really high level, the tiers will never affect your gameplay in any form. You're going to lose because you're not leveling up your own game, not because your character is low tier or whatever.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Yeah, it is a bad habit. I have no online or PvP for some time, so I spend too much time looking at high level play and tactics while I myself am still working the basics. Just a little frustrated that it seems in games my favorite characters end up being "less for more," and it is more irksome here in an anime game where character loyalty carries from something else. Liz is my favoritest, but I am too afraid to touch her: mostly for HP, also because I could never do those mind into dia combos.

    So SBO was the last big Japan thing. What and when is the next big American thing for P4A? I expect the character proportions to be quite different.

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  • ArachnofiendArachnofiend Double Uzis and a Wink Joined: Posts: 2,058
    Even with the SMP loop I feel as though Naoto still belongs in the lower end of the tier list(bottom 3 imo). It doesn't really fix her match up issues or her flaws. It does however give her a great comeback factor and something your opponent to be afraid of.
    I agree. Naoto really only rushes down against the other zoners (IE the low tier characters) so getting a hit suitable for the loops isn't going to be common enough for it to really bump her up. Makes her stronger against other low tiers but doesn't really help against the characters that already give her major problems. I can't really see you ever getting an SMP-worthy confirm on a Yosuke, for example.
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  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,602
    would like to know how well liz fares against naoto usually (and i know im novice) i usually have to rush down naoto with liz hard to zone

    also was wondering how teddie fares against people that turtle him / don't press buttons
    i mean you have no reason to block high except for his overhead which can be reacted to fairly easy
  • LythiumLythium #salty #hashbrown Joined: Posts: 116
    would like to know how well liz fares against naoto usually (and i know im novice) i usually have to rush down naoto with liz hard to zone

    also was wondering how teddie fares against people that turtle him / don't press buttons
    i mean you have no reason to block high except for his overhead which can be reacted to fairly easy

    Liz vs. Naoto is pretty even, at a glance. Possibly in Liz's favour, because Naoto's normals are just so mediocre. Traps don't work on Liz, but Liz can't use Zio against Naoto's R-Action or gunshot.

    It doesn't matter if Teddie's high/low mixup is non-existent really. His cross-up and pressure game is really good and locking people down with items/Teddievision keeps them pretty honest. Also, keep in mind that his items can just as easily be used for zoning as they are for getting in. Teddie has no problem running away or playing rushdown, it just depends on the match-up and what items are available.
  • ArachnofiendArachnofiend Double Uzis and a Wink Joined: Posts: 2,058
    I'd put it a little bit in Liz's favor. Naoto's best bet is to rush her down, since all of Naoto's zoning tools require some frames to set up Liz can just Disruptor through them. I usually just super jump over her and lay a trap; either Liz gets caught and you can get some hits in or she blocks it and you get a mix up.
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    I'd put it a little bit in Liz's favor. Naoto's best bet is to rush her down, since all of Naoto's zoning tools require some frames to set up Liz can just Disruptor through them.

    Disruptor is useless in the Liz v. Naoto matchup. The Naoto player can easily B+D~6X on reaction to slow disruptor, and the fast one is "eat a full combo on block" levels of unsafe.
  • ArachnofiendArachnofiend Double Uzis and a Wink Joined: Posts: 2,058
    ...Well shit. I always seem to blank out on the properties of Shield of Justice, I need to incorporate that more. Forget I said anything. >.>
    Skullgirls: Peacock/Parasoul Marvel 2: BB Hood/Juggernaut/Ruby Heart Marvel 3: Tron/Strange/Skrull BlazBlue CSE: Hazama Vampire Savior: BB Hood
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Disruptor is actually a bad move...it's easy for lower level players to want to use it but it's something that should generally be avoided if you want to get better with Elizabeth. It's punishable on the startup by many things, and you don't get much out of someone blocking it.

    Same goes for her R-action, the risk/reward is way against her for attempting it.
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  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Is disruptor Zio?

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  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,602
    ^yep
    i wish it chipped a bit more so the incentive to use and rush her down was greater
    she does have alot of zoning tech
    i only use the ex version anyways

    her r action is alright for people who auto pilot their offense. I seldom use it but everybody at somepoint overextends themselves when they on offense and at the worse if they get hit and break it you back at neutral.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    Liz vs Naoto is definitely in Naoto's favor.

    Naoto's zoning > Liz's zoning.
    also was wondering how teddie fares against people that turtle him / don't press buttons
    i mean you have no reason to block high except for his overhead which can be reacted to fairly easy
    Unless they have a good reversal, then Teddie will eventually get in, just one hit from a cross up j.A can lead to all sorts of damage.
  • rayplayrayplay aka solidoutlaw Joined: Posts: 2,813
    Liz vs Naoto is definitely in Naoto's favor.

    Naoto's zoning > Liz's zoning.
    Elaborate so I can understand the matchup better.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    Elaborate so I can understand the matchup better.
    Naoto simply controls more space safely than Liz does. Gun and traps provide better coverage than Liz's tools (disruptor, shockwave, Thanatos). Naoto can control ground and air without without having to move as much as Liz does, not to mention that she has better tools up close than Liz does. Also, Liz risks her Persona more using her tools than Naoto does. When Thanatos gets broken, Liz is basically free to Naoto unless she's within shield slash distance.
  • rayplayrayplay aka solidoutlaw Joined: Posts: 2,813
    Naoto simply controls more space safely than Liz does. Gun and traps provide better coverage than Liz's tools (disruptor, shockwave, Thanatos). Naoto can control ground and air without without having to move as much as Liz does, not to mention that she has better tools up close than Liz does. Also, Liz risks her Persona more using her tools than Naoto does. When Thanatos gets broken, Liz is basically free to Naoto unless she's within shield slash distance.
    But what stops Liz from using disrupter-desu or Agi to just destroy her traps? Or how normals can destroy traps so her B can deal with those somewhat? Up close, Naoto can win, but in terms of zoning in this particular matchup, I don't think Naoto can outzone Liz. She won't be able to use traps defensively, and disrupter-desu is faster than reading up to fire. I just see it as a matchup where Liz doesn't really have to go in, so it's more of just keeping Naoto out to avoid her offensive pressure.
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  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Liz has to respect 5DD and gun at every distance, especially with the threat of 236236A. You can land that at almost any distance and Liz is basically going to be defenseless in the corner for 15 seconds. Air traps are also incredibly annoying for Liz to deal with since she has no good normals to disarm those.

    Disruptor is not usable in this matchup. B version is a free gun combo into silence, and A version will cause you to lose all of your life.

    I don't really think the matchup is all that bad, but you definitely have to play Liz more aggressively and stay close, because Naoto will chip away at you and eventually find a way to blow you up unless you're applying the pressure before she gets meter.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    But what stops Liz from using disrupter-desu or Agi to just destroy her traps? Or how normals can destroy traps so her B can deal with those somewhat? Up close, Naoto can win, but in terms of zoning in this particular matchup, I don't think Naoto can outzone Liz. She won't be able to use traps defensively, and disrupter-desu is faster than reading up to fire. I just see it as a matchup where Liz doesn't really have to go in, so it's more of just keeping Naoto out to avoid her offensive pressure.
    As has been stated multiple times, Disruptor is punishable. Four blocked Disruptors and Liz loses her Persona if the Naoto player knows what they're doing.
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    As has been stated multiple times, Disruptor is punishable. Four blocked Disruptors and Liz loses her Persona if the Naoto player knows what they're doing.

    Don't even need to block it actually, you can interrupt on reaction with bullets if you recognize the animation. It's an ~infinity frame startup.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    Don't even need to block it actually, you can interrupt on reaction with bullets if you recognize the animation. It's an ~infinity frame startup.
    That is true, but most newer players are going to think that they're safe when it's blocked simply by how much it pushes her opponent back.
  • rayplayrayplay aka solidoutlaw Joined: Posts: 2,813
    As has been stated multiple times, Disruptor is punishable. Four blocked Disruptors and Liz loses her Persona if the Naoto player knows what they're doing.
    It's not like your just going to throw it out though, it can be done on reaction to Naoto getting her gun ready.
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    Best widowmaker in North Korea.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    It's not like your just going to throw it out though, it can be done on reaction to Naoto getting her gun ready.
    B+D~6X beats out disruptor on reaction. Trying to stuff that on reaction will only get Liz shot.

    Also, mind you that if Naoto has 100 meter, she can take out 60% of Liz' life from full screen.
  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    Can you punish Disruptor with Yu's Mazio?
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  • rayplayrayplay aka solidoutlaw Joined: Posts: 2,813
    B+D~6X beats out disruptor on reaction. Trying to stuff that on reaction will only get Liz shot.

    Also, mind you that if Naoto has 100 meter, she can take out 60% of Liz' life from full screen.
    Really? I'll have to try that out.

    And with 100 meter, a lot of people can take out 60% of Liz's life from full screen. Even Kanji has some tricks.
    PSN: rayplay
    Best widowmaker in North Korea.
    "He's gonna switch to wireless mid greed sever."
  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,810 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Hehe, citing SBO... but SBO is single elimination and has a very big random factor to it. It's why everyone's doing 3/5 sets for Marvel 3. It's acknowledged as a very fast and random game to an extent.
    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    you're right. it is random.
    19 mitsuru's qualified. 2 mitsuru's in top 8. mitsuru wins the tournament. that was completely unexpected. Those 19 mitsuru's could have easily been 19 kanji's.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    I believe what he means is that, in the Japanese format, bad matchups are easier to overcome since players of lower tier characters don't have to win multiple sets in a bad matchup.
  • D_DollarsD_Dollars the BASED ken Joined: Posts: 1,655
    Can you punish Disruptor with Yu's Mazio?
    you don't even need that. just slide that shit for free.
    ssf4 ae:ken aka da based ken
    P4U:mitsuru aka da based mitsuru
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    I believe what he means is that, in the Japanese format, bad matchups are easier to overcome since players of lower tier characters don't have to win multiple sets in a bad matchup.
    by that same logic bad match ups are harder to win because you have fewer chances to figure out your opponent...
    Hehe, citing SBO... but SBO is single elimination and has a very big random factor to it. It's why everyone's doing 3/5 sets for Marvel 3. It's acknowledged as a very fast and random game to an extent.
    I don't quite follow you on this; how does the fact that in the US marvel is 3/5 help your argument that P4 at SBO was random? P4 is not Marvel.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    by that same logic bad match ups are harder to win because you have fewer chances to figure out your opponent...
    No, no, no. This was discussed already back during SBO 2009. It's pure numbers. It's plain harder to against a bad matchup multiple times in a row than it is to do so once. Statistically speaking, with a lopsided matchup, the favored character is eventually going to win out in a long set. This is why we tend to see a better character spread in Japanese tournaments.
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    No, no, no. This was discussed already back during SBO 2009. It's pure numbers. It's plain harder to against a bad matchup multiple times in a row than it is to do so once. Statistically speaking, with a lopsided matchup, the favored character is eventually going to win out in a long set. This is why we tend to see a better character spread in Japanese tournaments.

    This, but also, uncommon matchups take longer to download. If I'm playing SLab and you're my 5th Mitsuru today, I'm already going to be in the right state of mind to tackle that matchup, whereas you likely will need some time to figure out what I'm throwing at you. Bo1 certainly favors me in that case.

    But yeah obviously fewer sets = more random = means less.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,980 mod
    Speaking of downloading, the first match is more often than not the best time for a disadvantaged character to try to get that win. Because as a set goes on, both players are downloading each other. Meaning that the player with the advantaged character is also learning how to respond to their opponent. This is why, the best Japanese players are the ones who are able to read and download during the first round of the first match - they want to press their advantages early on before they themselves are downloaded.
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