Concurrent Persona 4 Arena Tier List Discussion

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  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    Then by your logic you should have seen less mitsuru and more SLab in top 8.
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Then by your logic you should have seen less mitsuru and more SLab in top 8.

    Dumb comment; saying that Bo1 gives the disadvantaged character more of a chance than a Bo3 or Bo15 is not the same as saying that it turns bad matchups into good ones.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    no. you said SLab has more of a favor than mitsuru in a bo1 because SLab is more uncommon.
    This, but also, uncommon matchups take longer to download. If I'm playing SLab and you're my 5th Mitsuru today, I'm already going to be in the right state of mind to tackle that matchup, whereas you likely will need some time to figure out what I'm throwing at you. Bo1 certainly favors me in that case.

    But yeah obviously fewer sets = more random = means less.

    SBO run on a bo1 format. so you should see more SLab than mitsuru by that logic.
  • lawlHTlawlHT youtube player Joined: Posts: 535
    no. you said SLab has more of a favor than mitsuru in a bo1 because SLab is more uncommon.



    SBO run on a bo1 format. so you should see more SLab than mitsuru by that logic.

    SLab doesn't have a better matchup because of Bo1, you're just going to see more SLab's than normal because the odds of winning the match is higher than it normally would be for her.
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  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    no. you said SLab has more of a favor than mitsuru in a bo1 because SLab is more uncommon.



    SBO run on a bo1 format. so you should see more SLab than mitsuru by that logic.

    Again, claiming that a situation is favorable for me is not the same as claiming that the favorable situation creates a positive matchup.

    If I sneak up on Tito Ortiz and sucker punch him, that is a favorable situation for me, but it doesn't change the fact that he is going to turn around and kick the shit out of me afterward.

    As a final note, the "upper tier" characters took up ~72% of SBO, but represented only 50% of the top8. It would be a lot more expected for them to represent 7/8 or 8/8 if the matches went longer, that's merely common sense.
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  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes that tournament results are solely determined by statistics when we know that isn't the case. Quite frankly I dislike the idea of a statistical match up chart anyway because it is so inherently flawed, and often becomes a distraction for players when looking at the strength or weakness of a character. Unfortunately it's the best we have so what can you do?
  • stickystainesstickystaines Joined: Posts: 835
    I think some of you are downplaying the skill of Denpa and Himajin and others tbqh.
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    I think some of you are downplaying the skill of Denpa and Himajin and others tbqh.

    Nobody's doing that, but this is a tier list thread, and some people are suggesting that SBO results ought to be looked at to adjust the tier list (because SBO is sacred or something). Frankly, no one tournament should be used in this fashion, but especially not a tournament that uses Bo1 as its format since the results are incredibly random. I was just stating that in terms of SBO results, Naoto/Akihiko greatly overperformed and Yu/Aigis/Chi greatly underperformed.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    If you only look at top8 then you can come to those conclusions. 9 chie/yu/aegis qualified vs 1 naoto. I would argue that naoto underperformed. I would also argue that akihiko performence was just right. On the tier list he is placed as A tier. 4 qualified sounds about right. SBO was brought up because people were discussing that akihiko is actually bottom tier. I agree that no 1 tournament should be used to represent the tier list. Unfortunately SBO is the only tournament that is relevent in tier list discussions at the moment.
  • NybbNybb DOUBLE GERMAN Joined: Posts: 458
    The world outside of Japan just isn't qualified to make matchup judgements yet; we still have the token grappler frequently winning tournaments.
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  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    If you only look at top8 then you can come to those conclusions. 9 chie/yu/aegis qualified vs 1 naoto. I would argue that naoto underperformed. I would also argue that akihiko performence was just right. On the tier list he is placed as A tier. 4 qualified sounds about right. SBO was brought up because people were discussing that akihiko is actually bottom tier. I agree that no 1 tournament should be used to represent the tier list. Unfortunately SBO is the only tournament that is relevent in tier list discussions at the moment.

    That's not a logical conclusion. Infinitely more top players play top tier characters, that's why more of them qualified. Only when they're facing each other should you reach any assertions about how a high-level matchup plays out.
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  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    And you don't think top Kanji's and naoto's played against top mitsu/aeigis/chie/yu in the qualifiers? They did. And they lost.
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    And you don't think top Kanji's and naoto's played against top mitsu/aeigis/chie/yu in the qualifiers? They did. And they lost.

    Arguing with you is difficult because you don't understand anything. If there are 8x as many people playing a character, 8x as many of that character will qualify. Japanese players choose characters based on tier a lot more prevalently than American players, so you really don't see a lot of Kanjis and Naotos who are good.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Stop looking at it from one game's POV only. The Japanese format has, time and again proven that it does help lower tier players place higher than they would in the US format.
  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    You're the one that doesn't understand. You're completely ignoring the players that qualified for sbo and just looking at top8.

    @d3v by saying that, you're degrading everyone that has done well at sbo.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Yes, we should ignore an obvious, well documented, statistical advantage because it's "degrading." In any case, taking advantage of such an advantage is all part of the game and playing to win.
  • DullyannaDullyanna mm hmm... nope Joined: Posts: 1,160
    This isn't what I meant when I thought of "Discussion". GJ fuckshits, you know who you are.
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  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    I'd like to be there during the discussion between you and jwong about his win in mvc3. Say exaclty the same thing. "The Japanese format has, time and again proven that it does help lower tier players place higher than they would in the US format."
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Just because it helps, doesn't mean that it always happens...............
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  • IlluminatiIlluminati Gnosis is the law. Gnosis under skill. Joined: Posts: 102
    okay... both have their pros and cons to the american and japanese style formats... moving on.

    I foresee down the line yu taking top of the list if not number 2. That man is so incredibly well rounded damage/utility/mix ups(dive kicks are sexy), had to drop the brotherhood of the bear and take Yu on as my main. what do you guys think?!

    *internal monologue* dear FSM i hope this will make them move on... (-_-; )
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  • LythiumLythium #salty #hashbrown Joined: Posts: 116
    Depending on who you ask or where you find your tier lists, Yu is generally found pretty close to the top. I don't recall ever seeing him lower than top five.
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Agreed, I think Yu is definitely #2 or #3, though there is definitely separation between Mitsuru and everyone else. Yu doesn't have any outstanding matchups, he's kind of 5.5 or 5 across the board. It's a really good choice for someone (like JWong) who is just good at games and wants to play.

    Mitsuru is never leaving #1 without a patch or new tech being discovered. She has only 2-3 matchups that are even debatably negative, and several matchups where she almost can't lose.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
  • YannickYannick Max Range Panta Rhei Joined: Posts: 4,467
    :eek: I think Celerity's referring less to the matchup numbers themselves...

    ...and more to the style of play that Mitsuru can employ in her matchups that makes them seem more difficult than they are on paper.
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  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Two 7:3's hardly counts as several.

    Yu doesn't have two 7:3's.
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  • LythiumLythium #salty #hashbrown Joined: Posts: 116
    So, I guess people have now discovered SMP combos with Aigis.

    I haven't seen any videos yet, but they're trying to work out ways to loop Megido Fire.
  • PozerWolfPozerWolf Gummies, yum! ;o Joined: Posts: 8,374 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    So, I guess people have now discovered SMP combos with Aigis.

    I haven't seen any videos yet, but they're trying to work out ways to loop Megido Fire.
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  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Mitsuru has no negative matchups and more than two 7-3 matchups.
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  • Nini HeartNini Heart Red Pill Joined: Posts: 6,609
    So who's the "Wesker" of this game? I really don't feel like spending time labbing it up this time around
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  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    So who's the "Wesker" of this game? I really don't feel like spending time labbing it up this time around

    Mitsuru.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Mitsuru has no negative matchups and more than two 7-3 matchups.
    I'd say she's 4.5:5.5 to 4:6 against bothTeddie and Aigis.
  • BlackShinobiBlackShinobi Making moves Joined: Posts: 2,284
    I'm only a few days in, but everyone seems 7:3 against Yukiko right now.
    Except Yousuke, that matchup is 12:-2.
    Hopefully lab time will prove me wrong and she isn't as bad as my early analysis leads me to believe.
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  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I'm only a few days in, but everyone seems 7:3 against Yukiko right now.
    Except Yousuke, that matchup is 12:-2.
    Hopefully lab time will prove me wrong and she isn't as bad as my early analysis leads me to believe.

    I used to think Yukiko was bad but there are some insane players out there that made her work. She actually has damaging combos and some of the best corner pressure in the game, believe it or not...just takes some time to get it all together (compared to Mitsuru which is pretty much plug and play for big damage).
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  • stickystainesstickystaines Joined: Posts: 835
    I'd say she's 4.5:5.5 to 4:5 against bothTeddie and Aigis.
    Syuuto says his worst matchups are Yosuke and Chie.

    Take it as you will.
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    I used to think Yukiko was bad but there are some insane players out there that made her work. She actually has damaging combos and some of the best corner pressure in the game, believe it or not...just takes some time to get it all together (compared to Mitsuru which is pretty much plug and play for big damage).
    Yukiko is bad
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Syuuto says his worst matchups are Yosuke and Chie.

    Take it as you will.
    I can why he'd say Yosuke.
  • doyoudigwormsdoyoudigworms ..... Joined: Posts: 592
    What is weird is I see a lot of tier discussion for a game that is really very balanced. Undoubtedly we are going to see fluctuations in the tier list as time passes.
    What is shocking to me is there is little to nothing being said about particular match-ups on this board, Dustloop, or Mayonaka. Shouldn't we be really be investing our efforts into that discussion rather than "X character sucks because I said so" or SBO determines so? If we really take the time to examine these characters I think we can have a more worthy discussion at hand.

    Very few games give characters so many unique tools and ways to change momentum and maximize damage the way this game does. Tiers are important but in a game like this it's not everything.

    If SBO proves anything at all is a large portion if not all the cast are being used and to me that is a good feeling. This kind of results can aid in peoples confidence in their current character choice and can also help with the games longevity.
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  • BlackShinobiBlackShinobi Making moves Joined: Posts: 2,284
    What is weird is I see a lot of tier discussion for a game that is really very balanced. Undoubtedly we are going to see fluctuations in the tier list as time passes.
    What is shocking to me is there is little to nothing being said about particular match-ups on this board, Dustloop, or Mayonaka. Shouldn't we be really be investing our efforts into that discussion rather than "X character sucks because I said so" or SBO determines so? If we really take the time to examine these characters I think we can have a more worthy discussion at hand.

    Very few games give characters so many unique tools and ways to change momentum and maximize damage the way this game does. Tiers are important but in a game like this it's not everything.

    If SBO proves anything at all is a large portion if not all the cast are being used and to me that is a good feeling. This kind of results can aid in peoples confidence in their current character choice and can also help with the games longevity.
    Okay, Yousuke vs Yukiko sucks because hes literally too fast for her tools to work on him. He can run up to her and hit her in the face at anytime he wants. How is that?

    Not to bring up the US vs japan format again but does everyone understand what you have to do to win with a really bad character against a really good character? You end up having to take risks, usually much worse risks than your opponent sometimes for much less reward. These bad risks and sometimes gimmicks can win you a round our two and therefore a set, but they are less likely to still work by the end of a 3/5 and would be almost useless by the end of a first to 10. Bad character usually still have a few tricks up their sleeve but its a limited number of tricks. A well placed trick might win you a round but its not going to work more than once against a good player.

    Japanese tournament results are not an accurate picture of how a character will do in america our system favor better characters.
    also Dustloop and Mayonaka have matchup forums
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  • ciddypoociddypoo Block. Just block. Joined: Posts: 31
    The game is still relatively new, so I'd hope to see a lot of representation by characters until well into the game's lifespan. Every character in the game feels pretty strong at an overall level.

    The only real issue I see are the distinctly lopsided matchups (Liz v. Kanji, Slab v. Yukiko, Mitsu v. Liz).

    Even then, Kanji still has a chance because if he touches her, he can pretty much end it with one clean hit and a single guess. Kanji in general, even though he gets a lot of flack as a low B-tier / 'Kanji-tier' character, is still really scary. His movement and general neutral game might be kinda bad most of the time, but he always has that fearfactor / comeback factor off of a single read (super grab) that can sometimes kill before Awakening pops and is un-Burstable.

    Slab v. Yukiko is a matchup that seems pretty gimped to me as a Yukiko player, but admittedly there aren't enough Slabs that I've played against to really get the feel of why it is what it is. Blocking fans is huge and Yuki has trouble dealing with the jumpins, so I dunno.

    And all the Mitsuru talk. Yeah, she's #1, with at least 1 match at disadvantage (Aigis), then you can argue over the other ones. Not really too interested in trying to debate whether or not Mitsuru has 1, 2, or 3 matches at disadvantage. I'm more interested in forming the rest of the list.

    So at #2 the Japanese consensus is Aigis, which I can see as well, but what about #3? Teddie, Yu, or Chie? All three of them seem really strong. I don't have much experience with Teddie, but Yu is just so well-rounded that he feels like the border-case between S and A. I mean, really, he seems to have almost everything without seeming too overwhelming as an opponent. When I get hit by Yu at neutral, barring beefy OMB combos and stuff, I feel like I have a chance to block and get away with stuff instead of just eating a 4K midscreen into more mixups via Aigis or some huge corner carry by Mitsu.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Teddie I feel will always be at least high tier. j.A is not only ambiguos as heck, but is a really good abare tool, random hits from it can lead to good combos. The other important thing is that his persona right makes it like you're fighting a Marvel character with an assist backing him up. Just being able to put something out there that controls some space forces the opponent to think about it, which can lead to openings.
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