Concurrent Persona 4 Arena Tier List Discussion

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  • doyoudigwormsdoyoudigworms ..... Joined: Posts: 592
    Okay, Yousuke vs Yukiko sucks because hes literally too fast for her tools to work on him. He can run up to her and hit her in the face at anytime he wants. How is that?

    Not to bring up the US vs japan format again but does everyone understand what you have to do to win with a really bad character against a really good character? You end up having to take risks, usually much worse risks than your opponent sometimes for much less reward. These bad risks and sometimes gimmicks can win you a round our two and therefore a set, but they are less likely to still work by the end of a 3/5 and would be almost useless by the end of a first to 10. Bad character usually still have a few tricks up their sleeve but its a limited number of tricks. A well placed trick might win you a round but its not going to work more than once against a good player.

    Japanese tournament results are not an accurate picture of how a character will do in america our system favor better characters.
    also Dustloop and Mayonaka have matchup forums

    Dude, I play low tier in virtually every game as my main or secondary (not on purpose, but as fate would have it) so I do understand what it takes to win against top tier characters. I understand the risks involved even if I'm too stubborn to pick another char. But low tier characters in P4U actually have a good if not favourable fighting chance. This isn't 3rd Strike (my fav game BTW) or MVC2. The gameplay mechanics actually give a lot of rewards to characters even against the cream of the crop.

    Japan is ideally where NA players eventually want to get to, so it's understandable to try and use their knowledge as a template. Japan often deconstructs the game on many different levels and you can see that in their match-ups. NA players may not play like this yet but their "picture" of one char abilities is pretty accurate. We have the potential to be just as good as the Japanese if not better. MVC2 and MVC3 are proof of this. P4U is not far off from those games. We should be trying to copy the Japanese instead of saying "X Char sucks because I can't figure out how to beat X move" etc.

    Also, I am aware that Dustloop and Mayonaka have match-up forums but they are absolutely baron. As of right now there is more valuable info being said on streams than on forums for this game.
    3S: Q / VS: Aulbath/Victor / ST: DeeJay / A2: Rose
  • IlluminatiIlluminati Gnosis is the law. Gnosis under skill. Joined: Posts: 102
    Teddie I feel will always be at least high tier.
    teddie use to be my main but now he's my alt. My honest op of the top 4 is
    bitchsuru, aigis/yu (hella close), then teddie.
    ^^(;,,; )^^ BB: Arakune, Platinum / GG: Faust, Zappa / P4: Kuma / TTT2: DJ, Hei, Kaz / VS: Zabel (ʳ ´º㉨º)ʳ
  • doyoudigwormsdoyoudigworms ..... Joined: Posts: 592
    Teddie I feel will always be at least high tier. j.A is not only ambiguos as heck, but is a really good abare tool, random hits from it can lead to good combos. The other important thing is that his persona right makes it like you're fighting a Marvel character with an assist backing him up. Just being able to put something out there that controls some space forces the opponent to think about it, which can lead to openings.

    I have a friend who plays Marvel and virtually only Marvel. I introduced him to this game and told him to pick Teddy. He picked him up and immediately started putting things together and by the end of day 1 he was already collectively stringing some nasty trickery. He has a lot of great attributes that put him at the top. Most notably his items. Seperately they seem rather weak but collectively they are a force to be reckoned with. I play Mistsuru and I would risk more then half my life bar getting in on Teddy sometimes. He can build meter like crazy and almost always has an answer for any situation. Of all the characters I think he has the most VS. char feel. I agree on the jump A being a big problem, it seems to have a lot of priority and is very annoying to deal with particularly if he is covering his momentum with items. I think he is top and has a lot of really even match-ups. I can't wait to see what comes of this char in a couple months.
    3S: Q / VS: Aulbath/Victor / ST: DeeJay / A2: Rose
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    We have the potential to be just as good as the Japanese if not better. MVC2 and MVC3 are proof of this. P4U is not far off from those games.

    Eh, all that's proof of is that there are far far more people in the US playing those games than in Japan because hardly anyone cares there. It doesn't have anything to do with the kind of gameplay those games have - if anything, Japan is known to always excel in games similar to P4U.

    I agree people should be copying the Japanese for this game and pretty much anything...copying to understand, because right now US is way behind in the knowledge and mentality department. There's no point in reinventing the wheel when the information is already out there.

    The gap between US and Japan P4U is huge but for reasons some people probably don't notice...for example, do you see how many instant blocks the Japanese players perform on a regular basis? This really makes a difference but there are *very* few instant blocks performed by US players in the matches I see.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
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  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Eh, all that's proof of is that there are far far more people in the US playing those games than in Japan because hardly anyone cares there. It doesn't have anything to do with the kind of gameplay those games have - if anything, Japan is known to always excel in games similar to P4U.

    I agree people should be copying the Japanese for this game and pretty much anything...copying to understand, because right now US is way behind in the knowledge and mentality department. There's no point in reinventing the wheel when the information is already out there.

    The gap between US and Japan P4U is huge but for reasons some people probably don't notice...for example, do you see how many instant blocks the Japanese players perform on a regular basis? This really makes a difference but there are *very* few instant blocks performed by US players in the matches I see.

    Ok, but IBing in any game just requires a lot of time with the game. And obviously Japan will be better than us for awhile, since they get the games first and they have more people playing them at a high level. However, SF4 has shown us that regional barriers can be overcome, and though Japanese players have a very high technical skill level, they tend to view characters in an insular way which can lead to them falling behind in knowledge, especially in a game as balanced as this one.

    I don't think P4A will be the game we break through, but in a few years, the western airdash scene should be caught up to Japan.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    I have a friend who plays Marvel and virtually only Marvel. I introduced him to this game and told him to pick Teddy. He picked him up and immediately started putting things together and by the end of day 1 he was already collectively stringing some nasty trickery. He has a lot of great attributes that put him at the top. Most notably his items. Seperately they seem rather weak but collectively they are a force to be reckoned with. I play Mistsuru and I would risk more then half my life bar getting in on Teddy sometimes. He can build meter like crazy and almost always has an answer for any situation. Of all the characters I think he has the most VS. char feel. I agree on the jump A being a big problem, it seems to have a lot of priority and is very annoying to deal with particularly if he is covering his momentum with items. I think he is top and has a lot of really even match-ups. I can't wait to see what comes of this char in a couple months.
    The thing is that they do control space, regardless of what they do. It's worse when you a player does not know the order in which they come out and they have to stop and wait to see what's coming out.
  • tilopud_ryetilopud_rye Joined: Posts: 147
    Maybe the whole tournament format is the wrong setting with the right people to find the tier list. The winners of the tournaments are unlikely to play against each character in a given tournament- let alone the best representative of that character. Maybe a true tier list only be done by having the best player of each character play multiple rounds with each other with each matchup. Either that or give it time to see how the stew settles.
    I think Aigis is going to end up top. And ShadLabs seem to come up with new tricks all the time
  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    I don't think this got posted here.
    S+: Mitsuru
    S: Aigis, Yu
    A: Chie, Teddie
    B: Yosuke, Kanji, Yukiko, Naoto, Labrys, Elizabeth, Akihiko, S. Labrys

    This is apparently the "latest" tier list from Japan.
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • KefKef Joined: Posts: 3,170
    Source Jolly?
    If you wanna play some MVC2/Xrd/SFV: PSN: I-kef-I SFV ID: I-kef-I
    From Miami, if you are in the area, don't be afraid to PM me for some locals.

    "Don't be nice, it's Marvel son, the origin of hatred. The game ain't about being nice. If you want to be nice play Tea Party Adventures. They go that shit on DS I heard." - Romneto
  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    Not sure where it was posted. But source says its from Jiyuna.

    edit: Just noticed it was already in the OP. My bad.
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Can't believe Shadow Labrys was once considered S tier. Now she's B?
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • riceshockriceshock Joined: Posts: 224
    I thought she was written up as S tier on an Oki Tier list.

    I've never seen a character Tier List where she was above B.
  • No LimitzNo Limitz EXTENDED REALITY Joined: Posts: 850
    BBS Tiers:
    S: Mitsuru ≧ Aigis ≧ Yu、Chie
    A: Kuma、Yousuke、≧ Akihiko
    B: Naoto、Yukiko、Shabrys、Labrys、Liz ≧ Kanji

    http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/lite/read.cgi/game/52991/1347009090/l30

    Also can a Mitsuru player explain why they even think they lose the Aigis/Kuma match up?
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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,396
    Also can a Mitsuru player explain why they even think they lose the Aigis/Kuma match up?
    because their GODLIKE 5A get's actually outranged and beaten every now and then for once : X
    我道
  • No LimitzNo Limitz EXTENDED REALITY Joined: Posts: 850
    out ranged by what? j.C? or the slow ass 5C/2C lol
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    Apparently Yosuke beats Mitsuru. SBO Champ has him as her worst matchup, i think.
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Definitely possible. Yosuke has almost all the same tools that Mitsuru has but possibly better mixups.
  • No LimitzNo Limitz EXTENDED REALITY Joined: Posts: 850
    Kuma's 5B beats out Mitsuru's 5A.
    That's only one tool, that doesn't make it a bad match up.
    It's also slower and can be rolled through to be punished. >_>
    4jbo.png01rj.png0sh8.png
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Spaced right, you can punish 5A with Kuma's 5B (heck, slightly further out and you can punish her other stuff with it on reaction). Kuma also has more, better tools at mid and far range. In other words, he works better at multiple ranges than Mitsuru. More importantly, he can get in and out of those ranges faster than Mitsuru. Also, you have to factor in the fact that Kuma is better at converting stray hits into damage (5A at max range will still lead to auto combo. j.A hitting at any angle whatsoever will lead to 1200 - 2000 damage).
  • No LimitzNo Limitz EXTENDED REALITY Joined: Posts: 850
    If you're whiffing 5A outside of 5A range and Kuma calls you out on that bullshit with 5B then you deserve to get hit, it's just footsies.
    Your 2AB also has a retarded hurtbox that allows you to get under that anyways and net you a combo similar to his jA, unless you're in the corner which you can then go for a 5-6k combo.

    You're really just saying problems that almost all characters have facing Kuma but Mitsuru is pretty well equipped with answers compared to a good chunk of the cast. I'm sure it's one of Mitsuru's harder match ups but I wouldn't call it worse than 5-5.
    God forbid a Mitsuru that has to respect and adjust their play style for a harder match up like the majority of the cast when fighting her.
    Yosuke has almost all the same tools that Mitsuru has

    I...I don't even....
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Me calling Teddie having an advantage over Mitsuru isn't just my own opinion. Alot of other folks have expressed this opinion as well.

    If Teddie punishes her 5A with a 5B, he's safe on block since it pushes her out. Her only punish is 2AB, and that's only at certain ranges (within Teddie's 5A range), outside that, she flies above. If she tries to block after a blocked 5A, within Teddie's 5A range, then she's eating a combo. Her options on block then are either to try to punish with 5A (which is unsafe if she's blocked) or to continue the string and go for a mixup. In that case, Teddie can just defend and wait it out because at the end of it, he's in the ideal 5B range.

    Other notes, Droit is punishable on IB with 2A, 2A2A is also punishable, Bear Screw goes past Bufudyne, 2D Teddie can be used to avoid 5A and punish with his own 5A, j.B can beat out her 2B.
  • 1000DollaSocks1000DollaSocks That's an overhead?! Joined: Posts: 618
    Definitely possible. Yosuke has almost all the same tools that Mitsuru has but possibly better mixups.

    Oh my god post of the year
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  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    I can see a good Youskue bopping a good Mitsuru.

    I personally think Youskue has more tools.

    Tenrafoo, Sukajaka, his grab deals posion, Moonsault or Knife Throw, Garudyne, His DP, Movement, doesn't have to charge like Mitsuru.

    Also, 1000DollaSocks, what mixup does Mitsuru really have?
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,396
    I can see a good Youskue bopping a good Mitsuru.

    I personally think Youskue has more tools.

    Tenrafoo, Sukajaka, his grab deals posion, Moonsault or Knife Throw, Garudyne, His DP, Movement, doesn't have to charge like Mitsuru.

    Also, 1000DollaSocks, what mixup does Mitsuru really have?
    ..and is way more squishy and deals less damage.
    5A > yosuke. 5A > almost every tool in the game.
    我道
  • Ratio 4 CerebellaRatio 4 Cerebella this again Joined: Posts: 90
    Also, 1000DollaSocks, what mixup does Mitsuru really have?
    sweep throw, instant overhead with meter or icewall, fast crossup, throw/jC. jump in high/low/throw

    i mean like seriously
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    ..and is way more squishy and deals less damage.
    5A > yosuke. 5A > almost every tool in the game.
    Hey, I never said "better tools", just more.

    Ratio:Sweep feint grab should be teched all the time.

    Overhead Jump B is pretty good.

    I don't think her crossup beats Youskue's crossups.
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • VhaeraunVhaeraun Joined: Posts: 4
    Sweep feint grab should be teched all the time.
    and risk getting blown away if Mitsuru decided to [4b] instead of grab?
    But I bet Yosuke can do that too huh? convert even the most trivial of mistakes into super high damage
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    and risk getting blown away if Mitsuru decided to [4b] instead of grab?
    But I bet Yosuke can do that too huh? convert even the most trivial of mistakes into super high damage
    I'm now confused.

    Never did I state that Yoskue was a better character, or had better buttons, or tools.

    What I DID state was that I believe that Youskue could be a bad matchup for Mitsuru and he has more ways to open you up than Mitsuru.

    I'm sorry, I honestly cannot remember the throw window in this game, 15 frames?

    I really have never had a problem with mixup grabs in this game.

    Grabs out of nowhere, sure, but if you already know Mitsuru's mixup, which a lot of people do now, grab is probably the lowest used choice of Mitsuru players in that mixup.

    Can a Mitsuru tell me how often they use the grab of the mixup in a set?
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  • 1000DollaSocks1000DollaSocks That's an overhead?! Joined: Posts: 618
    Yeah, I mean, Yosuke has pretty much all the same tools.

    A DP that can't be crossed up
    Damage consistently around 3k, peaking at above 6k for counter hits
    Ways to bait DPs, backdashes and jump outs while continuing pressure without making a read
    Knockdown or pressure from pretty much any hit
    big tits

    pretty much the same character actually I don't know why they're both in the game

    And if you're "Having no trouble with [dealing with throw mix up]" whoever you're playing against sucks dick. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but grab is sub-reactable timing. Unless you are a greek god. And yet, even the best japanese players crumble to simple, structural grab mix up.. so I doubt you are.
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  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    I never said that Mitsuru's mixup options aren't good, I just said that Youskue has more ways to open you up.

    Man, these last few posts have so much sardoniscism (and kind of go off topic) seeping through it's unpleasant to discuss anything here.

    I just said that in her sweep feint grab mixup, I don't feel her "grab" is amazingly strong.

    So, can we start this again?

    How about going back to what started it all?

    The Yous. V. Mits matchup.

    How do you all feel about it?
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • 1000DollaSocks1000DollaSocks That's an overhead?! Joined: Posts: 618
    I never said that Mitsuru's mixup options aren't good, I just said that Youskue has more ways to open you up.

    Man, these last few posts have so much sardoniscism (and kind of go off topic) seeping through it's unpleasant to discuss anything here.

    I just said that in her sweep feint grab mixup, I don't feel her "grab" is amazingly strong.

    So, can we start this again?

    How about going back to what started it all?

    The Yous. V. Mits matchup.

    How do you all feel about it?

    In the sweep feint grab/4B mix up, grab is amazingly strong functioning as the other half of the 50/50

    Yousuke V Mitsuru would surprise me to be anything past even, I sincerely doubt he beats her. Perhaps a Yousuke that was so technically refined he could be in correct position to air glide over coup-droit and 2B could give her a problem in that regard, but even then her counter hit air grab is massive damage and covers that option well.

    Every time Yousuke gets a solid hit it goes back to neutral. Every time Mitsuru gets a solid hit it's probably one 50/50 away from death.

    Mitsuru DP effectively mitigates Yousuke's cross up game, forces him to bait much harder than most matchups

    Mitsuru 5A breaks yous' persona at 5C/2C range, makes it weird for him to footsie. Can also break 5D/jD, and so can coup.

    I dunno, it's hard for me to understand why this would be Yousuke's favor.

    And I'm sorry for the biting tone, it's just hard for me to believe you are commenting on the matchup but don't believe Mitsuru uses grab very often, and comments like "sweep feint grab should be teched all the time" make me cringe
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  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351


    At 3:00

    I can see how he can be annoying.



    27:20

    It seems like Mitsuru needs to kind of sit back more in this one, which she can do just fine, still.




    And I'll admit that I shouldn't have said "All the time", but I've watched a fair share of Mitsurus, and they just don't go for it that often.
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  • 1000DollaSocks1000DollaSocks That's an overhead?! Joined: Posts: 618
    Ah, I also forgot.. his DP has no failsafe, whereas Mitsuru's failsafe means any time he blocks a DP he either has to hard call out no follow/follow for damage or take something like a 1.5k punish. In the event he is trying to read followup super, a wrong guess is counter hit bufu-dyne, which breaks a card since he pressed 2C and does like 4k (If properly combo'd I think it's actually more, I don't remember proper numbers on CH)

    I would expect the reasoning Mitsurus aren't going for it all the time is because mid screen the reward is low. In the corner though, her grab mix up is the end of the world.

    Literally, the first piece of advice I give to people against mitsuru is do not even attempt to tech the grab mid screen. Just let it hit you. It's fine, you take like 1.2 and you're out. Don't tech it.

    So what Mitsuru does in the corner is like.. one or two high low mix on mirror in the corner, and then a grab/trap mix up afterwards. It's so impossible to get out of, like most strong knockdowns in the corner in this game.
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  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    Doesn't Mitsuru's sweep feint grab mixup lose to Youskue's DP?
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • VhaeraunVhaeraun Joined: Posts: 4
    How about going back to what started it all?

    The Yous. V. Mits matchup.

    How do you all feel about it?

    Things that Mitsuru denies:
    Moonsault pressure via her dp
    j.d, 5d via ja, 5a/dtroit/mirror

    Things that Yosuke denies:
    5a stagger via sweep under (1.3k dmg, so strong)
    Pressure via his dp, baitable

    Mitsuru HP > Yosuke HP
    Mitsuru DMG >>> Yosuke DMG

    I guess If Yosuke can break every throw, then it'll open her up real quick and Mits vs Yosu 6-4 easily becomes 4-6
    b-but you can bait Mitsuru's dp too!!!!!
    Not when you're in Moonsault
    Doesn't Mitsuru's sweep feint grab mixup lose to Youskue's DP?
    No. [4b] charge time is longer than Yosuke's DP. Risk vs Reward isn't worth it
  • 1000DollaSocks1000DollaSocks That's an overhead?! Joined: Posts: 618
    It's worth noting though that his DP actually functions in that scenario. A lot of DPs just whiff, like Akihiko.
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  • VhaeraunVhaeraun Joined: Posts: 4
    It's worth noting though that his DP actually functions in that scenario.
    The situation I had in mind was Yosuke immidiately replying with r.action right after sweep feint. Besides, I think Mitsurus will just stop charging immidiately when they see that the opponent does nothing.

    I still believe this is 4-6 on neutral or momentum is on Yosuke, 3.5-6.5 when momentum is on Mitsuru
  • Ratio 4 CerebellaRatio 4 Cerebella this again Joined: Posts: 90
    the matchup looks even to me but its more ridiculous that anyone would compare a strong midrange character with insanely high damage with mediocre mobility to a hit and run character with little to no oki and insane mobility.

    they are nothing alike.
  • Ratio 4 CerebellaRatio 4 Cerebella this again Joined: Posts: 90
    Anyway if anyone wants a tierlist from TOP NETPLAYER ME (probably totally innacurate since I play Kanji):
    S+ Mitsuru = Aigis = Teddie
    S Chie = Yu > Akihiko = Slab
    A Naoto = Yukiko > Labrys
    B Liz > Kanji

    As long as you aren't Kanji or Liz I think you can win a real tournament. The power difference between S+ and A is pretty small. B you're probably going to get randomed out.
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