Concurrent Persona 4 Arena Tier List Discussion

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  • ciddypoociddypoo Block. Just block. Joined: Posts: 31
    As far as Yukiko is concerned,

    Akihiko 6.0 -- He's pretty easy to keep out and his low jump doesn't seem to help his approaches when fans are on the screen. If he touches Yuki it's usually bad, but his oki is easier to deal with than say, Chie. Yukiko's D persona moves also control a lot of space and Yuki's 5A seriously out ranges most of Aki's pressure if they get within sweep-ish distance.

    Chie 5.5 -- I think Yuki has a slight advantage in this one, for the same reasons as Akihiko. Differences are that Yuki's j.A seems to work a lot better, but the Chie mixups are much more difficult to deal with once Yuki's knocked down. You also have to contend with the fact that once Chie hits awakening, she usually gets at least one free chance to go for mixup using Meteors.

    Kanji 6.0 -- Hovering just inside full screen range and throwing fans, Persona and fire on the screen keeps you safe from a majority of approaches. It's so difficult for Kanji to get in without taking some big risks, and even if he gets in it just takes one Dead Angle to throw him back out fairly safely and reset the situation. Add Burst to that and I dunno how many outs you get with Yuki before he can really get in your face and start his mixup game. It also seems pretty hard to deal with Yuki's 2B fans; j.B tends to get stuffed and j.C seems to whiff a lot.

    Labrys 5.0 -- Admittedly I don't know a ton about this matchup, but it's a little harder to keep Labrys out than other characters due to Labrys' j.B. It's very hard to anti-air with fans, and she can actually respond to a lot of things by airdashing and throwing one out. It also has a large hitbox so it's difficult to roll and avoid in general. Yuki's got some nice blockstrings at range to keep axe level down. Doesn't really feel like either character has an advantage here.

    Narukami 4.0 or 4.5 -- Sword gives Yuki problems, 5B particularly. Makes it very dangerous to roll. Yuki can't safely throw ground fans due to the Persona-Slide-Move, and up close Yuki's options mixup and defensive options are limited due to Narukami's air unblockable moves. Gets an extremely good mixup/approach with 100 meter (Zio OMC), which totally negates Yuki's zoning aspect in clutch situations (similar to Chie Meteors and Aki Zio OMC).
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    For the record, the (good) liz players I've seen talking about the s.lab matchup on IRC put it at "even or slightly in s.lab favor".
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    For the record, the (good) liz players I've seen talking about the s.lab matchup on IRC put it at "even or slightly in s.lab favor".

    For what reason? SLab 8C shuts down maziodynes and maragidynes but only lower level Liz players would be using these a lot.

    I don't see any reliable answers for Liz 5C, 2C, etc. The only way the match can be evened out is the vortex SLab gets on a knockdown but getting it started is a problem against Liz.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    Oh god, when I finish Labrys' MUs people are gonna say I underrate her. She has a good amount of issues and is probably gonna be lower on the MU chart from what I know so far, but she has the ability to turn matches around and steal rounds with 2 combos. I'll make a big post about it when I wake up.
  • YannickYannick Max Range Panta Rhei Joined: Posts: 4,464
    For the record, the (good) liz players I've seen talking about the s.lab matchup on IRC put it at "even or slightly in s.lab favor".

    :eek: This is mostly true from my experience. Not an easy matchup by any means.
    The Sunset Studio // Destiny: Rise of Iron, Fighters, Development, Mechanics, Strategy, Media.
  • Dotop10Dotop10 恋をはじめよう Joined: Posts: 15
    I believe someone mentioned that Yu vs. Kanji was 6-4 in Kanji's favor. Um... I have a hard time believing this. For one, Kanji dies pretty hard to Yu 5D oki. Also, Kanji has disadvantage against Chie for I guess in a nutshell three reasons- longer normals (namely 5C, j.C), high damage, and Kanji can't deal very well with Chie's oki at all. I'm of the opinion that Kanji is at disadvantage against Yu for similar reasons, except trade Chie's high damage for stronger oki and overall stronger neutral game.
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    Alright, I'll go ahead and knock out some of Labrys' more obvious ones

    Chie: I'll go ahead and call this one of the worsts at 3.5 - 6.5. Labrys has super slow normals and a terrible reversal, so once she gets knocked down and Chie puts her in the blender, she has no option but to block and hope she guesses right. As far as Lab's oki goes, Chie has respectable ways to get out of a few of her set ups and be a nuisance (her counter is great at catching our slower moves -_-). In the neutral game being midscreen isn't too bad, we have j.b and all our big normals, but once Chie gets close to you're just going to block, into mix up, into probably death. Super annoying to deal with.

    Yu: Again, another strong Oki character with strong normals too, I have to put him with Chie at 3.5-6.5. We still have all our slow normals and bad reversal for dealing with getting knocked down into Persona mix ups, though Yu's has more obvious gaps to attempt to get out (I don't know if I've been fighting bad Yu's, but most of them I can call out the dive and reversal or roll out). j.B gets beat air-to-air by the dive and well spaced j.Bs from Yu, and 2B from Yu, well, is Yu's 2B. A lot of the match up devolves into waiting on him to come to you and get hit being careless. Once he's on the ground, Labrys actually can apply pressure, just gotta be mindful of the DP, and actually land a knockdown.

    Liz: Erm, 4-6 or 4.5-5.5. Liz has all her big zoning tools and a good anti air/normals to keep us out and they're mildly annoying. 5C really isn't all that scary once you've seen it enough times, I just hang around for the string to be over and 5A the damn thing. The only reason I call this close to a 5-5 is Liz has nothing she can do to get out of pressure and has such low health. If we knock her down and do 5C, she can reversal through it, and we can jump and kill the shit out of her. She pretty much has to guess the mix up and pray she isn't hit twice into death. Lab's oki isn't super scary, but it works well enough here, IF you can manage a knockdown between the zoning.

    I'll do more later, so far I can agree on the 5-5 Yukiko, I played long a set against a good Yukiko and she had issues keeping me out. Fans really don't do much. Lab is good at fighting Yosuke though, so I'll write that up later. I need to play around more with the Mitsuru MU and see how bad it its. Kanji feels 5-5. my buddy plays him so I have ton of experience, I'll write it up whenever I can. I know fuck all about S Lab so that one will stay blank a minute.
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    tiers imo

    S - Aigis Mitsuru Yu >> Chie Teddie Yosuke
    A+ - The rest

    game is heavily based on matchups. i think aigis is the strongest but mitsuru is pretty stable for tournaments

    mitsuru matchups imo

    Yu vs Mitsuru - 5/5
    Labrys vs Mitsuru - 4/6
    Shadlow Labrys vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5 or 5/5
    Kanji vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5
    Liz vs Mitsuru - 3/7
    Akihiko vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5
    Naoto vs Mitsuru - 4/6
    Teddie vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5
    Yukiko vs Mitsuru - 4/6
    Aigis vs Mitsuru - 5.5/4.5 or 6/4
    Yosuke vs Mitsuru - 5.5/4.5 or 6/4
    Chie vs Mitsuru - 6/4

    --
    EDIT: you cant tech throws on reaction
  • CorreaCorrea HYPER CATINEL FORCE Joined: Posts: 177
    Agreed, for the most part.

    Why not 4/6 on the Kanji matchup? Even though he can hit so much harder and is scarier when he's in, I still feel like overall it's easier to keep the match in control against him than against Yukiko or Naoto
    PSN: tcorrea
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  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    it might be 6/4, im not 100 percent on that one

    you can play relatively safely and win but his jC alone makes it too hard to AA him
  • ZMangzZMangz (のヮの) Joined: Posts: 246
    my humble opinion on kanji matchups (kanji on left):

    kanji vs. akihiko 5-5? (jury's out on this one, i feel whoever gets the first knockdown has the easier time winning).

    kanji vs. naoto 4-6 (assuming naoto plays this perfectly, kanji shouldn't be able to get in. but kanji can easily change the momentum with one knockdown).

    kanji vs. chie 4-6 (her oki and pressure are too strong, kanji has too be psychic to stop her from going ham. good thing r-action and command grabs exist)

    kanji vs. liz 2.5-7.5 (really bad, kanji has to make way too many risks and be a bit lucky to get anything going. even with her persona broken liz's 5b and jumping b covers kanji's approach. maybe i just suck at this matchup but it feels almost helpless).

    kanji vs. yu 4-6? (again jury's out on this one. but i feel that yu's midrange and oki games can overpower kanji).

    again these are only my opinions. i think kanji is the worst character but not by much. all it takes is one sweep or command grab for kanji to win.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,097 mod
    Hmm... just checking out the numbers. Chie == Mitsuru?
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Hmm... just checking out the numbers. Chie == Mitsuru?

    I'm not sure that updating the list every time someone posts a conflicting opinion is the best way to gather accurate data.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,097 mod
    I'm not sure that updating the list every time someone posts a conflicting opinion is the best way to gather accurate data.
    I didn't update Mitsuru though (she was 67 during my last update, now she's down by a couple of points). Perhaps I'll ask Narcowski.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Why are people saying Chie beats Mitsuru? Is it because of Spinking destroying Shuuto or what?

    Also SLab and normal Lab vs. Mitsuru should be like 3.5-6.5 or 3-7, how is it 5-5 and 4-6? Mitsuru can do whatever she wants and control the match at all times, the other players have to go out of their way to make good and risky reads to mount any kind of offense. Also Mitsuru breaks Shadow Lab's persona very easily, especially with coup, 5A, 5B and D attacks, she has to stay in D stance for a long majority of the fight. In fact, I think these characters (and Akihiko) have a harder time fighting her than Elizabeth would...the main thing hurting Elizabeth in the matchup is probably her low health.

    Edit: Actually scratch Akihiko, his matchup might not be as bad because he has normals fast enough to punish coup...for the Labrys', their fastest normals can't do it even on IB.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    mitsuru ground normals are too slow, you cant whiff anything

    on top of that, chie converts all air CH into AoA knockdown, all ground hits into sweep knockdown. vs mitsuru wakeup 2b, all she needs to do is delay the sweep

    if mitsuru gets caught blocking, chie can do w/e she wants, all mitsuru has is really risky stuff

    chie can low profile 5a/droit/jA

    chie's max damage is comparable to mitsuru's and she does more damage midscreen off more things

    labrys does well vs mitsuru in neutral and mitsuru cant use 5d at all since chain knuckle flat out beats it, labrys moves are slow but they dont have much recovery, and labrys always has a chance in every matchup because of red axe

    if mitsuru catches labrys blocking (especially in the corner) it's sad times, so 6-4 for mitsuru

    slab - same as labrys, except her dp is infinitely better, so she does better on defense. despite mitsuru having a lot of ways to take persona cards, slab still has good normals. even though her 2b is technically a little worse than lab you can use fire or laser to help cover, so it's ok. mitsuru does more damage but the way slab makes her play she doesnt get a lot of opportunities to create damage, i was thinking either 5.5 or even. really, slab dp is enough to make it a better matchup than lab
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,097 mod
    Even? The chart puts Mitsuru at advantage for Lab and S.Lab.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    LK do you think your opinions on the Chie matchup are partially due to the fact that MarlinPie is the player who gives you the most trouble on a consistent basis? If everyone is free to you besides Chie players, it may make the matchup seem tougher than it is.

    I agree with all of your points, though I think a lot of them apply to Chie vs. anyone. This isn't exactly a game that favors blocking, and Mitsuru is still better equipped to deal with Chie's options than most characters. It's certainly possible for Mitsuru to control neutral for the whole round and then get one good confirm to keep Chie out of awakening.

    Either way thanks, I've learned a lot about fighting Mitsuru by watching your stream. I'll try my best to make the matchup 7-3.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    my opinions are based on playing a LOT of matches

    i used to think mitsuru had the advantage vs chie, then i went to japan - a lot of my thoughts, from matchups to the depth of the game, changed after my trip
  • Nini HeartNini Heart Red Pill Joined: Posts: 6,609
    EDIT: you cant tech throws on reaction

    react to the grab animation
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    I ♥ Me
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  • CorreaCorrea HYPER CATINEL FORCE Joined: Posts: 177
    LK do you think your opinions on the Chie matchup are partially due to the fact that MarlinPie is the player who gives you the most trouble on a consistent basis? If everyone is free to you besides Chie players, it may make the matchup seem tougher than it is.

    I don't think so, Chie definitely gives me more trouble than most other characters even factoring player skill out.

    Mitsuru does have the range advantage, but her pressure isn't all that strong and unlike most characters, Chie doesn't usually have any reason to be pressing buttons (and thus get hit by Coups, 2B or 5D/2D) until she's right in Mitsuru's face, where she wins. Once she's in, there's pretty much nothing Mitsuru can do to get out other than random DPs (which are obviously risky) or throw 50 meter away on an alpha counter.

    The fact that Chie can also convert off of pretty much anything anywhere into her vortex is also a huge problem. Mitsuru, on the other hand has to keep worrying about a bunch of super timing/spacing/counter-hit/crouch-specific confirms and generally gets nothing on knockdown outside of the occasional mirror setup (which isn't really that great of an oki setup tbh, in addition to also being very spacing-specific).

    If Mitsuru can make Chie stay on the defensive and push her to the corner, then she can get something going. If that doesn't happen, it's pretty much Chie's match to lose. It's very similar to fighting Narukami, except Chie has better buttons (low profiles 5a/coup), way more damage and meteors.
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  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    I can second what LK says about the Lab - Mitsuru match being 4-6. Labrys actually has a pretty decent neutral game, but the big flaw of her crumbling under pressure against, well anything, gets her killed anyways T.T Sad times indeed.
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    I am in no way shape or form a great S.lab player, so I would like a little more in-depth explanation on how S.lab wins the Mit matchup.

    Doesn't Mit's D do like 450, breaking the autoarmor Asterios has?

    I have a pretty good Mitsuru at my locals and it seems like he doesn't even need to leave neutral, he can just kind of chill and D, or if he gets tired of that, Coup Drop.

    Or am I missing something when I block or IB it?
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    Labrys - Kanji: I feel like this one can best be summed up with going over Kanji's option vs Labrys. His air dive gets blown up by 2B or B+D on reaction. B+D gets a CH to big damage, 2B gets a decent combo for mid - high damage, axe depending of course. Air to air the hitbox on j.B from Lab is just astounding, he has to be careful with the timing. His reversal is really good at getting pressure off him, but Labrys can safely bait it out with 5C and trap set ups, it's just really not that useful against a lot of her oki. A lot of the pressure she applies before getting a knockdown he can reversal out of, but a good Lab will know at this point what her safe strings and options are (Shit, I do 2Ax3 into 5B, and just hold it to see them reversal and get a free CH, but that's them not knowing what they're doing). To get out of 5C, Kanji can do his invincible grab though, it flies through it. In fact, he can grab through a lot of stuff. Unfortunately, Lab has some pretty big and active normals that it's far from free, and not a lot of recovery so he won't be punishing her like that. Kanji does have lightning, and there's not much Lab can say about that. Once he does get pressure on her, he get's the same mix ups he get's on everybody else,where whoever guess wrong eats a ton of damage.. It's really a guessing game for both characters at that point, but that's how grapplers usually go anyways. I forgot to mention that he does have 5C to throw off AA games, and isn't a defensive slouch either with his big normals and reversal.

    Basically, this MU can go in Lab's favor, but it's also very scary because Labrys has to stay in and apply very smart pressure, where one fuck up gets a command throw into the 1 chance situation into death. It's a very 1 chance situation for both characters, I just feel like Labrys is better at controlling that chance. Labrys doesn't zone or keep Kanji out incredibly well, but he still needs to go in and Labrys can handle it. It seems pretty neutral at first, but I think it's becoming more 6-4 or 5.5-4.5. I'll stick with 6-4 until a Kanji player calls me out with something I don't know.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,097 mod
    I am in no way shape or form a great S.lab player, so I would like a little more in-depth explanation on how S.lab wins the Mit matchup.

    Doesn't Mit's D do like 450, breaking the autoarmor Asterios has?

    I have a pretty good Mitsuru at my locals and it seems like he doesn't even need to leave neutral, he can just kind of chill and D, or if he gets tired of that, Coup Drop.

    Or am I missing something when I block or IB it?
    Uhh... from all the discussion here, Mitsuru wins the S.Lab matchup.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • QETZLQETZL Needs more Salt. Joined: Posts: 494
    I'm inclined to say Lab Kanji is a lot closer to even than 6-4, given that we're also calling Liz Kanji 6-4 (Why aren't we calling that 7-3, out of curiousity?)
    Air Dive is definitely something you shouldn't (And I don't believe a good Kanji would) just throw out there in this match. If you B+D on reaction to jump-ins, Kanji could and potentially would fake Lab out with JC and that's gonna be fun times for Kanji. It's matchup specific knowledge, but once you've learned about Lab's charging B, you just IAD J.C that business for meterless 5k.
    I believe that like most of the characters, keeping Kanji at arm's length (And have him be blocking everything) is Labrys' game, but her reversal doesn't do the job of exposing gaps in pressure and ruining some tick throw setups. because of its startup and being able to react to it /after/ you've fed it a hit, gives Kanji (And everyone else) opportunities to walk all over her at close range. Her DP speed means Kanji can use meaty Chairs or A chains with impunity, a luxury he doesn't get with a most of the cast which helps defines those matchups as really bad for him. When he has meter, he has a four frame grab and a really fast, plus on block cruel that will find you from 3/4s screen away.

    On the Lab side, you want Kanji to block everything so you build delicious Axe meter, and if/when you get to Red Axe, Kanji has failed.
    So I'm not gonna say this match is in Kanji's Favor significantly, but definitely even, or only slightly tipped one way or the other. With these two I believe it just boils down to who's the better player. It's not like Liz/Kanji, which is like pulling teeth.
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  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    You definitely don't B+D on reaction to jump ins, I'm saying air dive is so bad that when you see it, you can just hit B+D every time. The thing is also invincible to throws and as slow as it is, if you don't charge it you can actually reversal a throw since it whiffs completely, Lab doesn't get that anywhere else. Don't forget she gets a combo off a CH from that thing in that situation. That really changes the risk/reward for his throw compared to everybody else, if her reversal lands on CH she gets a full combo for good damge/axe meter. This is one of maybe two MUs where her reversal isn't complete shit. So once Kanji gets in on her, it's a complete guessing game for both characters where whoever guesses wrong eats it, so it comes down to her controlling the space in front of her. She has much better mobility, air to air she wins all day, chain breaks lightning, Kanji can't walk up to her thanks to 5C (can't be liberal with that cause rolls) and all her defensive options lead to a combo for the most part.

    Kanji - Liz is a 3-7 from what I've heard from the Kanji players I know, so meh idk why it's a 6-4 here. I'm still holding to at least a 5.5 - 4.5 Lab - Kanji, she's just better at controlling the coin flip situation, it exposes some of the just straight design issues with Kanji.
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    I hate double posting and I'm pretty sure it's against the rules, but I want this in a different post so F it. Kanji and Labrys are both very likely to be bottom 2-3 in the MU chart, but I can't deny I see success of people using them and beating these bad MUs. These characters stand a chance in play simply because of their damage output and how volatile they can be. Duckator at SBA took 2nd with Labrys, and if you watch his matches, he takes fights that are clearly not in his favor. Most them (especially MarlinPie's match) you can see him in these very bad situations, and then the other player messes up once. Bam, dead, next round. So as important as the MU chart is for this game, don't think for a second these characters won't show up somewhere.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,097 mod
    Any decent Aigis players willing to chime in on her matchups?
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    Uhh... from all the discussion here, Mitsuru wins the S.Lab matchup.
    Thank you for clearing that up.

    A friend told me I win that, and I couldn't understand why.
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • djenkovdjenkov Joined: Posts: 12
    Can you guys give me an Aegis match up list?My roommate is going to main her and I wanna know where I stand with Naoto.I will want to play Akihiko and Yosuke too.
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    new tiers - (imo)
    S - Aigis Mitsuru Chie > Yu = Teddie > Yosuke
    A+ the rest
  • djenkovdjenkov Joined: Posts: 12
    So the game is pretty balanced,huh?That's nice to hear.
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    yeah it's all matchup based imo, the top chars have better matchups on average but they still lose/struggle here and there
  • AyxAyx abusing EX upkicks Joined: Posts: 161
    new tiers - (imo)
    S - Aigis Mitsuru Chie > Yu = Teddie > Yosuke
    A+ the rest

    Really? Over Mitsuru? Mitsuru has one of the best "Get off me" moves in the game, supers that can change the pace of her moves and unlike Aigis, Mitsuru can stay back and push people away with her persona. Aigis has amazing options, I won't lie as an Aigis player myself but the fact that Orgia management is so important and she's easily one of the biggest momemtum based characters in the roster.

    If someone pushes you away and removes all your pressure by that random R action? Oops there goes your work around and you have to start dashing around the screen burning gauge and once I don't have it none of my options can help me out. Although I am improving and I know that Aigis is top tier, this character is pretty much for people with ADD or something because you have to be doing something all. the. time. Plus the Teddie match SUCKS mostly because of his stupid j.A into crazy hit confirms. Trap pressure such as drums really can keep an Aigis on the edge.

    I think the only characters that Aigis truly destroys is Kanji and Liz, maybe the Labbys.
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I don't think he said Aigis is better than Mitsuru...he said all 3 of them are on the highest tier. Aigis mixups are too easy to do and too strong, not to mention leading to ridiculous damage, even without meter. She murders a lot of characters, especially SLab.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    im pretty sure slab does good vs aigis...

    but anyway yes, even though i think those 6 chars are S, i think aigis/mitsuru/chie are all more or less the same strength, but no so far ahead that they need their own tier

    the good things about mitsuru B+D is the big horizontal range and the fact it hits behind, outside of that it has many weaknesses and is easily punished, especially since she doesn't have an air super to cancel into.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,097 mod
    You're equating ease of use with matchup advantage. In reality, this doesn't really matter in tiers where the assumption is that both characters are being played at the highest level, execution be damned.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • DramatixDramatix Could be better. Joined: Posts: 4,452
    Can someone explain how Mitsuru is S+ tier? I'm not bashing her because I use her, but aren't her moves linear and predictable? I'm just going by what I've heard.
    "Everyone in here has had someone who tried to convince them that they were sexually harassed, and you did not believe them because they were not cute."
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,097 mod
    Can someone explain how Mitsuru is S+ tier? I'm not bashing her because I use her, but aren't her moves linear and predictable? I'm just going by what I've heard.
    Good frame data and priority. She's like 3S Chun in that she's quite linear, but she's very solid.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Can someone explain how Mitsuru is S+ tier? I'm not bashing her because I use her, but aren't her moves linear and predictable? I'm just going by what I've heard.

    She isn't much of a mixup character (though she does have some damaging mixup with meter). The problem is her normals are too good and it's not really an issue of "how do I block this?" as it is "when can I do something other than block?". Now R-actions can be a solution to a lot of problems but the problem here is that Mitsuru has probably the most damaging combos in the game (I suppose Elizabeth's are more damaging). You can die in 2 Mitsuru combos most of the time, so it's quite risky to make reversal guesses to get out of her pressure.

    Her r-action is very good and it doesn't make her go high enough in the air so it's harder to punish than it should be. You have to punish it while she's in the air if she has meter, or she can supercancel it when she lands...if the r-action is airblocked, there's many cases you won't be able to punish it in the air.

    Her risk/reward is greatly skewed in her favor. Worst of all, she is very easy to use and in most cases you don't have to actually think about what you're doing because you can cause many problems for the opponent by just doing moves (and in most cases you can cover a number of situations with single button presses, without thinking about them). The opponent has to go way out of their way to counter simple brainless things that she might do.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • doyoudigwormsdoyoudigworms ..... Joined: Posts: 592
    She isn't much of a mixup character (though she does have some damaging mixup with meter). The problem is her normals are too good and it's not really an issue of "how do I block this?" as it is "when can I do something other than block?". Now R-actions can be a solution to a lot of problems but the problem here is that Mitsuru has probably the most damaging combos in the game (I suppose Elizabeth's are more damaging). You can die in 2 Mitsuru combos most of the time, so it's quite risky to make reversal guesses to get out of her pressure.

    Her r-action is very good and it doesn't make her go high enough in the air so it's harder to punish than it should be. You have to punish it while she's in the air if she has meter, or she can supercancel it when she lands...if the r-action is airblocked, there's many cases you won't be able to punish it in the air.

    Her risk/reward is greatly skewed in her favor. Worst of all, she is very easy to use and in most cases you don't have to actually think about what you're doing because you can cause many problems for the opponent by just doing moves (and in most cases you can cover a number of situations with single button presses, without thinking about them). The opponent has to go way out of their way to counter simple brainless things that she might do.

    Mitsuru is killer, she has all sorts of tools that can change the match-up. However, as the game progresses we are seeing other characters are learning to excel greatly and not only dealing with the Mits match-up but making the match-up generally more favorable for them. She is relatively slow, less than average mix-up (even with meter), poor midscreen combos (without meter and generally the opponent needs to be crouching), her normals and persona attacks can be baited fairly well by some characters and countered for huge punish. Even though Bufudyne is cheap as hell it also can be baited and punished accordingly. Her combos tend to have huge damage output because against skilled players it can be fairly hard to land those combos, which generally need a FC to get max damage from. Many skilled Japanese players are dissecting her block strings and getting huge counter opportunities. They are also controlling space better than they ever have before and taking advantage of her slow normals. Her mix-up is very limited and other than some deadly oki corner set-ups she has a hard time opening up someone who can block very well. She is indeed one of the best but I think in general she is not as strong as she used to be. If the game progresses in it's current state I don't think we will see a decline in her performance per se but I think other characters are now proving their worth and in the hands of truly great players are becoming really very deadly.

    TBH, I'm much more scared of a competent Chie, Teddy, Aigis and even Yu than I am of the average Mitsuru. Not to exclude the already fantastic cast with huge comeback potential.
    3S: Q / VS: Aulbath/Victor / ST: DeeJay / A2: Rose
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,097 mod
    Are people actually still discussing the balance of this game?
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • nihil679nihil679 Joined: Posts: 34
    Are people actually still discussing the balance of this game?

    I for one would like to, but it's so shunned upon by a very spoken part of the community.
  • ThancruzThancruz Joined: Posts: 2,834
    I for one would like to, but it's so shunned upon by a very spoken part of the community.
    I thought the game was generally well accepted?

    Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I for one would like to, but it's so shunned upon by a very spoken part of the community.

    Yeah Mitsuru players really hate it when the topic of balance comes up.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • nihil679nihil679 Joined: Posts: 34
    It's well accepted, but it's not like the game can't have a little bit of balance tweaks to help it be better.

    @Emil ... oddly enough, I think that's true...
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,097 mod
    Game's at EVO. Let's liven this discussion back up again.

    See this matchup chart --> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmO7DzQ7vgX2dHEwSW1ZNmNfUHlWcnV5TVZTR0NJa1E#gid=0

    It needs updating, ASAP.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • aisightaisight Joined: Posts: 13
    Kanji vs Mitsuru is considered 4.5:5.5? Really?
  • CorreaCorrea HYPER CATINEL FORCE Joined: Posts: 177
    Probably 4:6. Don't think it's any lower than that, given how he works. You can spend the entire match poking him to death and he can still pretty much come back from nothing off one mistake.
    PSN: tcorrea
    P4A: Mitsuru
    UMVC3: Doom / Storm / Sentinel
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