Concurrent Persona 4 Arena Tier List Discussion

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  • Dotop10Dotop10 恋をはじめよう Joined: Posts: 15
    I'd say Shadow and normal Labrys too.
    By really lopsided, I mean from the get go you can tell that there's obviously something wrong. Then again, I don't know much about how the match up goes for Labrys and Shadow Labrys. But two of the match ups I listed are pretty uniformly considered among the worst match ups in the game. Yukiko's used to be as well, but I heard it got slightly better when Mitsuru j.A was nerfed from the May patch. But that match up is still very rough for her.
  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686
    My own personal tier list. No real order with each tier. Ignore the letters in the background.

    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/p4u/index.html#ya0-trdh6mdc99fy99h9eig8h3aq9600m8g3bvdcbwg26oid9bc0egdlh3emeg-bkg

    This game is really fun. I know most will disagree somewhere but this is from my own personal experience. I play Yu btw.
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  • CorreaCorrea HYPER CATINEL FORCE Joined: Posts: 177
    I'd say it's more like:
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/p4u/index.html#ya0-trhi77dq9tg89sbecddzcdb59u00mblfcciwcdey79cc788ucegdccit9t-bkg

    Nobody's low tier, it's just about who has more favorable matchups. If you think a character's bad (like Hsien-Ko bad), you haven't played a good player using them yet.
    PSN: tcorrea
    P4A: Mitsuru
    UMVC3: Doom / Storm / Sentinel
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    I'd say it's more like:
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/p4u/index.html#ya0-trhi77dq9tg89sbecddzcdb59u00mblfcciwcdey79cc788ucegdccit9t-bkg

    Nobody's low tier, it's just about who has more favorable matchups. If you think a character's bad (like Hsien-Ko bad), you haven't played a good player using them yet.
    Yukkiko less rounded than Kanji?

    Liz more rounded than Labyrs?
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  • NybbNybb DOUBLE GERMAN Joined: Posts: 458
    I'd say it's more like:
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/p4u/index.html#ya0-trhi77dq9tg89sbecddzcdb59u00mblfcciwcdey79cc788ucegdccit9t-bkg

    Nobody's low tier, it's just about who has more favorable matchups. If you think a character's bad (like Hsien-Ko bad), you haven't played a good player using them yet.
    Akihiko is more rounded than Narukami, and Kanji is more well-rounded than Teddie?

    The mmcafe graph tier-lists are so awful. Does nobody understand how to read graphs??
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,693 mod
    I'd say it's more like:
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/p4u/index.html#ya0-trhi77dq9tg89sbecddzcdb59u00mblfcciwcdey79cc788ucegdccit9t-bkg

    Nobody's low tier, it's just about who has more favorable matchups. If you think a character's bad (like Hsien-Ko bad), you haven't played a good player using them yet.
    MM Cafe graph tier lists are pointless for 1-on-1 games. For those, you should be making a matchup chart (which, by the way, we all need to sit down and start discussing more).
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • CorreaCorrea HYPER CATINEL FORCE Joined: Posts: 177
    I wasn't really paying attention to the horizontal axis tbh, just the overall tier hierarchy. I definitely agree about the matchup chart though, I hadn't thought of that.
    PSN: tcorrea
    P4A: Mitsuru
    UMVC3: Doom / Storm / Sentinel
  • JacopeXJacopeX "Veras el color rojo cuando termine contigo." Joined: Posts: 419
    Here are my thoughts on Teddie's match ups:
    • Vs. Yu Narukami - 5 - 5
    • Vs. Yosuke Hanamura 4 - 6
    • Vs. Chie Satonaka 4 - 6
    • Vs. Yukiko Amagi 6 - 4
    • Vs. Kanji Tatsumi 6 - 4
    • Vs. Naoto Shirogane 4.5 - 5.5
    • Vs. Labrys 5 - 5 (maybe 5.5 - 4.5)
    • Vs. Shadow Labrys 5.5 - 4.5
    • Vs. Akihiko Sanada 6 - 4
    • Vs. Mitsuru Kirijo 4.5 - 5.5 (maybe 5 - 5)
    • Vs. Aigis 5 - 5
    • Vs. Elizabeth 5.5 - 4.5 (maybe 6 - 4)
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  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    You should probably state why...
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,693 mod
    Here are my thoughts on Teddie's match ups:
    • Vs. Yu Narukami - 5 - 5
    • Vs. Yosuke Hanamura 4 - 6
    • Vs. Chie Satonaka 4 - 6
    • Vs. Yukiko Amagi 6 - 4
    • Vs. Kanji Tatsumi 6 - 4
    • Vs. Naoto Shirogane 4.5 - 5.5
    • Vs. Labrys 5 - 5 (maybe 5.5 - 4.5)
    • Vs. Shadow Labrys 5.5 - 4.5
    • Vs. Akihiko Sanada 6 - 4
    • Vs. Mitsuru Kirijo 4.5 - 5.5 (maybe 5 - 5)
    • Vs. Aigis 5 - 5
    • Vs. Elizabeth 5.5 - 4.5 (maybe 6 - 4)


    Liz is 6:4.

    Personally, I feel Mitsuru is even. I have more trouble with Yu than with her.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,693 mod
    Been thinking of fixing the list and adding automatic color formatting as well as formulas for the matchups.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Shadow Labrys matchups from what I'm seeing from videos and experiencing...

    vs. Yosuke - 7-3 for Yosuke
    He can run circles around her pretty easily, her normals and persona attacks are too slow to touch him. His R-action also lets him get out of a number of setups that most characters can't get out of (though there are still some yosuke specific ones that can work if timed right). If he sees the persona doing stuff to help her get in, he can usually 5C or 2C the persona pretty easily.
    I don't really see anything positive about this matchup for Shadow Lab

    vs. Elizabeth - 7-3 or like 6.5-3.5 for Elizabeth
    What can Shadow Lab do against Elizabeths mashing 5C? Also at first I thought that this matchup could be in Shadow Lab's favor because of her 8C uppercut punch but this only stops zoning at a lower level...better players will just move after the persona goes underground so the punch would whiff. The problem isn't maziodynes or maragidyne, it's 5C. Logically it would seem like her R-action could stop it but it only hits the persona and Liz can immediately do another 5C right after she's lost a persona card (why? this just makes a lot Liz players play braindead mashy) an d punish your r-action recovery.

    So what does she do against these characters?
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,693 mod
    Fixed the match-up chart, the color codes are now automatically added. Also the upper right triangle now automatically computes their values based on the number entered in the lower left triangle. I'd personally like to thank Mr. Wah from FreeStepDodge who did the conditional formatting and formulas in the DOA5 Matchup chart we're doing for their site (which I just copied and applied here).

    EDIT: Color codes have been changed a bit due to Google Docs' limit on the number of conditional formatting rules that can be added.

    EDIT2: Goddamit, we need more data. So far, we only have Mitsuru, Teddie and Naoto complete.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Fixed the match-up chart, the color codes are now automatically added. Also the upper right triangle now automatically computes their values based on the number entered in the lower left triangle. I'd personally like to thank Mr. Wah from FreeStepDodge who did the conditional formatting and formulas in the DOA5 Matchup chart we're doing for their site (which I just copied and applied here).

    EDIT: Color codes have been changed a bit due to Google Docs' limit on the number of conditional formatting rules that can be added.

    EDIT2: Goddamit, we need more data. So far, we only have Mitsuru, Teddie and Naoto complete.

    Is just anyone able to edit it? If so, I couldn't figure out how. Anyway, my humble opinions on Chie's matchups:

    Aigis 4.5
    Akihiko 5.5
    Elizabeth 6.5
    Kanji E
    Labrys 6.5
    Mitsuru E
    Naoto 5.5
    Narukami 4.5
    SLab I never play any, feels like probably even
    Teddie E (where did you get 6-4 from?)
    Yosuke 4
    Yukiko E

    Hesitate to give anything a 7, but vs Labrys is close, and Liz is also pretty free. I also do not believe that Liz-Kanji is anything close to a 7-3 matchup, but I guess people will go on believing that forever, since the Japanese said it one time 6 months ago (and are biased against grapplers).
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,693 mod
    No, not everyone is able to edit. For obvious reasons.

    Also, keeping S.Lab vs Chie as "?" until someone else can chime in.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • JacopeXJacopeX "Veras el color rojo cuando termine contigo." Joined: Posts: 419
    I'll continue discussing some match ups with other Teddie players since I see you're updating this. I can be wrong with some of these....but I seriously think Chie is such a pain in the ass match up for Teddie. :\ He can furious action all day (well, not against oki set ups) but his approaches are limited in this match up. Can anyone enlighten me? I can care less if this is a good or bad match up, just want to know what can Teddie do?

    I lose against Yu a lot, but I still feel that this match up is pretty even. Whenever I play against Yu players offline, It goes back and forth, and that is when i'm playing a lot better than I am online. It's all based on how fast the player responds to his raging lion pressure and a missed frame trap/block stun with izunagi. It just seems like the match up becomes 7-3 once you're stuck in Yu's pressure game against almost a any character. Its not as bad as Chie's automatic Oki. In the end, I just give this match up 5-5. It really depends on the players.
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  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Fixed the match-up chart, the color codes are now automatically added. Also the upper right triangle now automatically computes their values based on the number entered in the lower left triangle. I'd personally like to thank Mr. Wah from FreeStepDodge who did the conditional formatting and formulas in the DOA5 Matchup chart we're doing for their site (which I just copied and applied here).

    EDIT: Color codes have been changed a bit due to Google Docs' limit on the number of conditional formatting rules that can be added.

    EDIT2: Goddamit, we need more data. So far, we only have Mitsuru, Teddie and Naoto complete.

    Btw I didn't say to add my matchup numbers to the list, since I was just giving my thoughts and wanted a conversation about it. Needs more discussions. I don't know if Shadow Lab vs. Yosuke/Liz is really that bad, I want to know if I'm doing something wrong. I also don't see enough of these matchups in Japanese play to come to a good conclusion.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,693 mod
    Btw I didn't say to add my matchup numbers to the list, since I was just giving my thoughts and wanted a conversation about it. Needs more discussions. I don't know if Shadow Lab vs. Yosuke/Liz is really that bad, I want to know if I'm doing something wrong. I also don't see enough of these matchups in Japanese play to come to a good conclusion.
    I added them because I do agree with the breakdowns you gave. Though for S.Lab I believe one of her problems with the Liz matchup is that Liz can easily hit her persona if she's not careful.
    I'll continue discussing some match ups with other Teddie players since I see you're updating this. I can be wrong with some of these....but I seriously think Chie is such a pain in the ass match up for Teddie. :\ He can furious action all day (well, not against oki set ups) but his approaches are limited in this match up. Can anyone enlighten me? I can care less if this is a good or bad match up, just want to know what can Teddie do?

    I lose against Yu a lot, but I still feel that this match up is pretty even. Whenever I play against Yu players offline, It goes back and forth, and that is when i'm playing a lot better than I am online. It's all based on how fast the player responds to his raging lion pressure and a missed frame trap/block stun with izunagi. It just seems like the match up becomes 7-3 once you're stuck in Yu's pressure game against almost a any character. Its not as bad as Chie's automatic Oki. In the end, I just give this match up 5-5. It really depends on the players.
    I'm keeping it at a 5:5 for now since, from my experience, going full "Marvel mode" causes the Chie's I play against to back down and get caught in my cross ups and mix ups. As for Yu, all my matches against him have been ones that could have gone either way, so I'll agree with 5:5 as well (most of my losses were due to bad decisions on my part).
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I added them because I do agree with the breakdowns you gave. Though for S.Lab I believe one of her problems with the Liz matchup is that Liz can easily hit her persona if she's not careful.

    That's true but for the record, the persona getting hit by maziodyne does not make it lose a persona card(unless it is counterhit). Main "card breaking" moves she has to look out for is 5C (which is the big problem I think), 5B and maybe 2B.

    I suppose I missed the fact that if Shadow Labrys gets a knockdown, Liz has a lot of trouble getting out. Liz R-action definitely won't work unless you're napping, 2B won't work against the anti-mash setups. Command grab super could work in some situations, haven't really tested it. Overall though, getting the knockdown is a problem and Elizabeth gets more damage out of her combos than SLab does (though both have bad health).
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,693 mod
    That's true but for the record, the persona getting hit by maziodyne does not make it lose a persona card(unless it is counterhit). Main "card breaking" moves she has to look out for is 5C (which is the big problem I think), 5B and maybe 2B.

    I suppose I missed the fact that if Shadow Labrys gets a knockdown, Liz has a lot of trouble getting out. Liz R-action definitely won't work unless you're napping, 2B won't work against the anti-mash setups. Command grab super could work in some situations, haven't really tested it. Overall though, getting the knockdown is a problem and Elizabeth gets more damage out of her combos than SLab does (though both have bad health).
    That's why I adjusted the values to more conservative ones.

    On a related note, it's nice that I'm finally seeing people viewing the chart. Now here's hoping those folks actually post here.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • ciddypoociddypoo Block. Just block. Joined: Posts: 31
    As far as Yukiko is concerned,

    Akihiko 6.0 -- He's pretty easy to keep out and his low jump doesn't seem to help his approaches when fans are on the screen. If he touches Yuki it's usually bad, but his oki is easier to deal with than say, Chie. Yukiko's D persona moves also control a lot of space and Yuki's 5A seriously out ranges most of Aki's pressure if they get within sweep-ish distance.

    Chie 5.5 -- I think Yuki has a slight advantage in this one, for the same reasons as Akihiko. Differences are that Yuki's j.A seems to work a lot better, but the Chie mixups are much more difficult to deal with once Yuki's knocked down. You also have to contend with the fact that once Chie hits awakening, she usually gets at least one free chance to go for mixup using Meteors.

    Kanji 6.0 -- Hovering just inside full screen range and throwing fans, Persona and fire on the screen keeps you safe from a majority of approaches. It's so difficult for Kanji to get in without taking some big risks, and even if he gets in it just takes one Dead Angle to throw him back out fairly safely and reset the situation. Add Burst to that and I dunno how many outs you get with Yuki before he can really get in your face and start his mixup game. It also seems pretty hard to deal with Yuki's 2B fans; j.B tends to get stuffed and j.C seems to whiff a lot.

    Labrys 5.0 -- Admittedly I don't know a ton about this matchup, but it's a little harder to keep Labrys out than other characters due to Labrys' j.B. It's very hard to anti-air with fans, and she can actually respond to a lot of things by airdashing and throwing one out. It also has a large hitbox so it's difficult to roll and avoid in general. Yuki's got some nice blockstrings at range to keep axe level down. Doesn't really feel like either character has an advantage here.

    Narukami 4.0 or 4.5 -- Sword gives Yuki problems, 5B particularly. Makes it very dangerous to roll. Yuki can't safely throw ground fans due to the Persona-Slide-Move, and up close Yuki's options mixup and defensive options are limited due to Narukami's air unblockable moves. Gets an extremely good mixup/approach with 100 meter (Zio OMC), which totally negates Yuki's zoning aspect in clutch situations (similar to Chie Meteors and Aki Zio OMC).
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    For the record, the (good) liz players I've seen talking about the s.lab matchup on IRC put it at "even or slightly in s.lab favor".
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    For the record, the (good) liz players I've seen talking about the s.lab matchup on IRC put it at "even or slightly in s.lab favor".

    For what reason? SLab 8C shuts down maziodynes and maragidynes but only lower level Liz players would be using these a lot.

    I don't see any reliable answers for Liz 5C, 2C, etc. The only way the match can be evened out is the vortex SLab gets on a knockdown but getting it started is a problem against Liz.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    Oh god, when I finish Labrys' MUs people are gonna say I underrate her. She has a good amount of issues and is probably gonna be lower on the MU chart from what I know so far, but she has the ability to turn matches around and steal rounds with 2 combos. I'll make a big post about it when I wake up.
  • YannickYannick Max Range Panta Rhei Joined: Posts: 4,467
    For the record, the (good) liz players I've seen talking about the s.lab matchup on IRC put it at "even or slightly in s.lab favor".

    :eek: This is mostly true from my experience. Not an easy matchup by any means.
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  • Dotop10Dotop10 恋をはじめよう Joined: Posts: 15
    I believe someone mentioned that Yu vs. Kanji was 6-4 in Kanji's favor. Um... I have a hard time believing this. For one, Kanji dies pretty hard to Yu 5D oki. Also, Kanji has disadvantage against Chie for I guess in a nutshell three reasons- longer normals (namely 5C, j.C), high damage, and Kanji can't deal very well with Chie's oki at all. I'm of the opinion that Kanji is at disadvantage against Yu for similar reasons, except trade Chie's high damage for stronger oki and overall stronger neutral game.
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    Alright, I'll go ahead and knock out some of Labrys' more obvious ones

    Chie: I'll go ahead and call this one of the worsts at 3.5 - 6.5. Labrys has super slow normals and a terrible reversal, so once she gets knocked down and Chie puts her in the blender, she has no option but to block and hope she guesses right. As far as Lab's oki goes, Chie has respectable ways to get out of a few of her set ups and be a nuisance (her counter is great at catching our slower moves -_-). In the neutral game being midscreen isn't too bad, we have j.b and all our big normals, but once Chie gets close to you're just going to block, into mix up, into probably death. Super annoying to deal with.

    Yu: Again, another strong Oki character with strong normals too, I have to put him with Chie at 3.5-6.5. We still have all our slow normals and bad reversal for dealing with getting knocked down into Persona mix ups, though Yu's has more obvious gaps to attempt to get out (I don't know if I've been fighting bad Yu's, but most of them I can call out the dive and reversal or roll out). j.B gets beat air-to-air by the dive and well spaced j.Bs from Yu, and 2B from Yu, well, is Yu's 2B. A lot of the match up devolves into waiting on him to come to you and get hit being careless. Once he's on the ground, Labrys actually can apply pressure, just gotta be mindful of the DP, and actually land a knockdown.

    Liz: Erm, 4-6 or 4.5-5.5. Liz has all her big zoning tools and a good anti air/normals to keep us out and they're mildly annoying. 5C really isn't all that scary once you've seen it enough times, I just hang around for the string to be over and 5A the damn thing. The only reason I call this close to a 5-5 is Liz has nothing she can do to get out of pressure and has such low health. If we knock her down and do 5C, she can reversal through it, and we can jump and kill the shit out of her. She pretty much has to guess the mix up and pray she isn't hit twice into death. Lab's oki isn't super scary, but it works well enough here, IF you can manage a knockdown between the zoning.

    I'll do more later, so far I can agree on the 5-5 Yukiko, I played long a set against a good Yukiko and she had issues keeping me out. Fans really don't do much. Lab is good at fighting Yosuke though, so I'll write that up later. I need to play around more with the Mitsuru MU and see how bad it its. Kanji feels 5-5. my buddy plays him so I have ton of experience, I'll write it up whenever I can. I know fuck all about S Lab so that one will stay blank a minute.
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    tiers imo

    S - Aigis Mitsuru Yu >> Chie Teddie Yosuke
    A+ - The rest

    game is heavily based on matchups. i think aigis is the strongest but mitsuru is pretty stable for tournaments

    mitsuru matchups imo

    Yu vs Mitsuru - 5/5
    Labrys vs Mitsuru - 4/6
    Shadlow Labrys vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5 or 5/5
    Kanji vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5
    Liz vs Mitsuru - 3/7
    Akihiko vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5
    Naoto vs Mitsuru - 4/6
    Teddie vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5
    Yukiko vs Mitsuru - 4/6
    Aigis vs Mitsuru - 5.5/4.5 or 6/4
    Yosuke vs Mitsuru - 5.5/4.5 or 6/4
    Chie vs Mitsuru - 6/4

    --
    EDIT: you cant tech throws on reaction
  • CorreaCorrea HYPER CATINEL FORCE Joined: Posts: 177
    Agreed, for the most part.

    Why not 4/6 on the Kanji matchup? Even though he can hit so much harder and is scarier when he's in, I still feel like overall it's easier to keep the match in control against him than against Yukiko or Naoto
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  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    it might be 6/4, im not 100 percent on that one

    you can play relatively safely and win but his jC alone makes it too hard to AA him
  • ZMangzZMangz (のヮの) Joined: Posts: 246
    my humble opinion on kanji matchups (kanji on left):

    kanji vs. akihiko 5-5? (jury's out on this one, i feel whoever gets the first knockdown has the easier time winning).

    kanji vs. naoto 4-6 (assuming naoto plays this perfectly, kanji shouldn't be able to get in. but kanji can easily change the momentum with one knockdown).

    kanji vs. chie 4-6 (her oki and pressure are too strong, kanji has too be psychic to stop her from going ham. good thing r-action and command grabs exist)

    kanji vs. liz 2.5-7.5 (really bad, kanji has to make way too many risks and be a bit lucky to get anything going. even with her persona broken liz's 5b and jumping b covers kanji's approach. maybe i just suck at this matchup but it feels almost helpless).

    kanji vs. yu 4-6? (again jury's out on this one. but i feel that yu's midrange and oki games can overpower kanji).

    again these are only my opinions. i think kanji is the worst character but not by much. all it takes is one sweep or command grab for kanji to win.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,693 mod
    Hmm... just checking out the numbers. Chie == Mitsuru?
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    Hmm... just checking out the numbers. Chie == Mitsuru?

    I'm not sure that updating the list every time someone posts a conflicting opinion is the best way to gather accurate data.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,693 mod
    I'm not sure that updating the list every time someone posts a conflicting opinion is the best way to gather accurate data.
    I didn't update Mitsuru though (she was 67 during my last update, now she's down by a couple of points). Perhaps I'll ask Narcowski.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Why are people saying Chie beats Mitsuru? Is it because of Spinking destroying Shuuto or what?

    Also SLab and normal Lab vs. Mitsuru should be like 3.5-6.5 or 3-7, how is it 5-5 and 4-6? Mitsuru can do whatever she wants and control the match at all times, the other players have to go out of their way to make good and risky reads to mount any kind of offense. Also Mitsuru breaks Shadow Lab's persona very easily, especially with coup, 5A, 5B and D attacks, she has to stay in D stance for a long majority of the fight. In fact, I think these characters (and Akihiko) have a harder time fighting her than Elizabeth would...the main thing hurting Elizabeth in the matchup is probably her low health.

    Edit: Actually scratch Akihiko, his matchup might not be as bad because he has normals fast enough to punish coup...for the Labrys', their fastest normals can't do it even on IB.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    mitsuru ground normals are too slow, you cant whiff anything

    on top of that, chie converts all air CH into AoA knockdown, all ground hits into sweep knockdown. vs mitsuru wakeup 2b, all she needs to do is delay the sweep

    if mitsuru gets caught blocking, chie can do w/e she wants, all mitsuru has is really risky stuff

    chie can low profile 5a/droit/jA

    chie's max damage is comparable to mitsuru's and she does more damage midscreen off more things

    labrys does well vs mitsuru in neutral and mitsuru cant use 5d at all since chain knuckle flat out beats it, labrys moves are slow but they dont have much recovery, and labrys always has a chance in every matchup because of red axe

    if mitsuru catches labrys blocking (especially in the corner) it's sad times, so 6-4 for mitsuru

    slab - same as labrys, except her dp is infinitely better, so she does better on defense. despite mitsuru having a lot of ways to take persona cards, slab still has good normals. even though her 2b is technically a little worse than lab you can use fire or laser to help cover, so it's ok. mitsuru does more damage but the way slab makes her play she doesnt get a lot of opportunities to create damage, i was thinking either 5.5 or even. really, slab dp is enough to make it a better matchup than lab
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,693 mod
    Even? The chart puts Mitsuru at advantage for Lab and S.Lab.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    LK do you think your opinions on the Chie matchup are partially due to the fact that MarlinPie is the player who gives you the most trouble on a consistent basis? If everyone is free to you besides Chie players, it may make the matchup seem tougher than it is.

    I agree with all of your points, though I think a lot of them apply to Chie vs. anyone. This isn't exactly a game that favors blocking, and Mitsuru is still better equipped to deal with Chie's options than most characters. It's certainly possible for Mitsuru to control neutral for the whole round and then get one good confirm to keep Chie out of awakening.

    Either way thanks, I've learned a lot about fighting Mitsuru by watching your stream. I'll try my best to make the matchup 7-3.
    (P4AU) Marie :::: (UNIEL) Vatista :::: (BB) Izayoi/Rachel :::: (USF4) Juri
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    my opinions are based on playing a LOT of matches

    i used to think mitsuru had the advantage vs chie, then i went to japan - a lot of my thoughts, from matchups to the depth of the game, changed after my trip
  • Nini HeartNini Heart Red Pill Joined: Posts: 6,609
    EDIT: you cant tech throws on reaction

    react to the grab animation
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    I ♥ Me
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