Concurrent Persona 4 Arena Tier List Discussion

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  • CorreaCorrea HYPER CATINEL FORCE Joined: Posts: 177
    LK do you think your opinions on the Chie matchup are partially due to the fact that MarlinPie is the player who gives you the most trouble on a consistent basis? If everyone is free to you besides Chie players, it may make the matchup seem tougher than it is.

    I don't think so, Chie definitely gives me more trouble than most other characters even factoring player skill out.

    Mitsuru does have the range advantage, but her pressure isn't all that strong and unlike most characters, Chie doesn't usually have any reason to be pressing buttons (and thus get hit by Coups, 2B or 5D/2D) until she's right in Mitsuru's face, where she wins. Once she's in, there's pretty much nothing Mitsuru can do to get out other than random DPs (which are obviously risky) or throw 50 meter away on an alpha counter.

    The fact that Chie can also convert off of pretty much anything anywhere into her vortex is also a huge problem. Mitsuru, on the other hand has to keep worrying about a bunch of super timing/spacing/counter-hit/crouch-specific confirms and generally gets nothing on knockdown outside of the occasional mirror setup (which isn't really that great of an oki setup tbh, in addition to also being very spacing-specific).

    If Mitsuru can make Chie stay on the defensive and push her to the corner, then she can get something going. If that doesn't happen, it's pretty much Chie's match to lose. It's very similar to fighting Narukami, except Chie has better buttons (low profiles 5a/coup), way more damage and meteors.
    PSN: tcorrea
    P4A: Mitsuru
    UMVC3: Doom / Storm / Sentinel
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    I can second what LK says about the Lab - Mitsuru match being 4-6. Labrys actually has a pretty decent neutral game, but the big flaw of her crumbling under pressure against, well anything, gets her killed anyways T.T Sad times indeed.
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    I am in no way shape or form a great S.lab player, so I would like a little more in-depth explanation on how S.lab wins the Mit matchup.

    Doesn't Mit's D do like 450, breaking the autoarmor Asterios has?

    I have a pretty good Mitsuru at my locals and it seems like he doesn't even need to leave neutral, he can just kind of chill and D, or if he gets tired of that, Coup Drop.

    Or am I missing something when I block or IB it?
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    Labrys - Kanji: I feel like this one can best be summed up with going over Kanji's option vs Labrys. His air dive gets blown up by 2B or B+D on reaction. B+D gets a CH to big damage, 2B gets a decent combo for mid - high damage, axe depending of course. Air to air the hitbox on j.B from Lab is just astounding, he has to be careful with the timing. His reversal is really good at getting pressure off him, but Labrys can safely bait it out with 5C and trap set ups, it's just really not that useful against a lot of her oki. A lot of the pressure she applies before getting a knockdown he can reversal out of, but a good Lab will know at this point what her safe strings and options are (Shit, I do 2Ax3 into 5B, and just hold it to see them reversal and get a free CH, but that's them not knowing what they're doing). To get out of 5C, Kanji can do his invincible grab though, it flies through it. In fact, he can grab through a lot of stuff. Unfortunately, Lab has some pretty big and active normals that it's far from free, and not a lot of recovery so he won't be punishing her like that. Kanji does have lightning, and there's not much Lab can say about that. Once he does get pressure on her, he get's the same mix ups he get's on everybody else,where whoever guess wrong eats a ton of damage.. It's really a guessing game for both characters at that point, but that's how grapplers usually go anyways. I forgot to mention that he does have 5C to throw off AA games, and isn't a defensive slouch either with his big normals and reversal.

    Basically, this MU can go in Lab's favor, but it's also very scary because Labrys has to stay in and apply very smart pressure, where one fuck up gets a command throw into the 1 chance situation into death. It's a very 1 chance situation for both characters, I just feel like Labrys is better at controlling that chance. Labrys doesn't zone or keep Kanji out incredibly well, but he still needs to go in and Labrys can handle it. It seems pretty neutral at first, but I think it's becoming more 6-4 or 5.5-4.5. I'll stick with 6-4 until a Kanji player calls me out with something I don't know.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    I am in no way shape or form a great S.lab player, so I would like a little more in-depth explanation on how S.lab wins the Mit matchup.

    Doesn't Mit's D do like 450, breaking the autoarmor Asterios has?

    I have a pretty good Mitsuru at my locals and it seems like he doesn't even need to leave neutral, he can just kind of chill and D, or if he gets tired of that, Coup Drop.

    Or am I missing something when I block or IB it?
    Uhh... from all the discussion here, Mitsuru wins the S.Lab matchup.
  • QETZLQETZL Needs more Salt. Joined: Posts: 494
    I'm inclined to say Lab Kanji is a lot closer to even than 6-4, given that we're also calling Liz Kanji 6-4 (Why aren't we calling that 7-3, out of curiousity?)
    Air Dive is definitely something you shouldn't (And I don't believe a good Kanji would) just throw out there in this match. If you B+D on reaction to jump-ins, Kanji could and potentially would fake Lab out with JC and that's gonna be fun times for Kanji. It's matchup specific knowledge, but once you've learned about Lab's charging B, you just IAD J.C that business for meterless 5k.
    I believe that like most of the characters, keeping Kanji at arm's length (And have him be blocking everything) is Labrys' game, but her reversal doesn't do the job of exposing gaps in pressure and ruining some tick throw setups. because of its startup and being able to react to it /after/ you've fed it a hit, gives Kanji (And everyone else) opportunities to walk all over her at close range. Her DP speed means Kanji can use meaty Chairs or A chains with impunity, a luxury he doesn't get with a most of the cast which helps defines those matchups as really bad for him. When he has meter, he has a four frame grab and a really fast, plus on block cruel that will find you from 3/4s screen away.

    On the Lab side, you want Kanji to block everything so you build delicious Axe meter, and if/when you get to Red Axe, Kanji has failed.
    So I'm not gonna say this match is in Kanji's Favor significantly, but definitely even, or only slightly tipped one way or the other. With these two I believe it just boils down to who's the better player. It's not like Liz/Kanji, which is like pulling teeth.
    CFN: THEBENWA
    I play Bison and when I win I slick my hair back and try to pop my pecs
    as you should.
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    You definitely don't B+D on reaction to jump ins, I'm saying air dive is so bad that when you see it, you can just hit B+D every time. The thing is also invincible to throws and as slow as it is, if you don't charge it you can actually reversal a throw since it whiffs completely, Lab doesn't get that anywhere else. Don't forget she gets a combo off a CH from that thing in that situation. That really changes the risk/reward for his throw compared to everybody else, if her reversal lands on CH she gets a full combo for good damge/axe meter. This is one of maybe two MUs where her reversal isn't complete shit. So once Kanji gets in on her, it's a complete guessing game for both characters where whoever guesses wrong eats it, so it comes down to her controlling the space in front of her. She has much better mobility, air to air she wins all day, chain breaks lightning, Kanji can't walk up to her thanks to 5C (can't be liberal with that cause rolls) and all her defensive options lead to a combo for the most part.

    Kanji - Liz is a 3-7 from what I've heard from the Kanji players I know, so meh idk why it's a 6-4 here. I'm still holding to at least a 5.5 - 4.5 Lab - Kanji, she's just better at controlling the coin flip situation, it exposes some of the just straight design issues with Kanji.
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    I hate double posting and I'm pretty sure it's against the rules, but I want this in a different post so F it. Kanji and Labrys are both very likely to be bottom 2-3 in the MU chart, but I can't deny I see success of people using them and beating these bad MUs. These characters stand a chance in play simply because of their damage output and how volatile they can be. Duckator at SBA took 2nd with Labrys, and if you watch his matches, he takes fights that are clearly not in his favor. Most them (especially MarlinPie's match) you can see him in these very bad situations, and then the other player messes up once. Bam, dead, next round. So as important as the MU chart is for this game, don't think for a second these characters won't show up somewhere.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    Any decent Aigis players willing to chime in on her matchups?
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    Uhh... from all the discussion here, Mitsuru wins the S.Lab matchup.
    Thank you for clearing that up.

    A friend told me I win that, and I couldn't understand why.
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • djenkovdjenkov Joined: Posts: 12
    Can you guys give me an Aegis match up list?My roommate is going to main her and I wanna know where I stand with Naoto.I will want to play Akihiko and Yosuke too.
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    new tiers - (imo)
    S - Aigis Mitsuru Chie > Yu = Teddie > Yosuke
    A+ the rest
  • djenkovdjenkov Joined: Posts: 12
    So the game is pretty balanced,huh?That's nice to hear.
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    yeah it's all matchup based imo, the top chars have better matchups on average but they still lose/struggle here and there
  • AyxAyx abusing EX upkicks Joined: Posts: 161
    new tiers - (imo)
    S - Aigis Mitsuru Chie > Yu = Teddie > Yosuke
    A+ the rest

    Really? Over Mitsuru? Mitsuru has one of the best "Get off me" moves in the game, supers that can change the pace of her moves and unlike Aigis, Mitsuru can stay back and push people away with her persona. Aigis has amazing options, I won't lie as an Aigis player myself but the fact that Orgia management is so important and she's easily one of the biggest momemtum based characters in the roster.

    If someone pushes you away and removes all your pressure by that random R action? Oops there goes your work around and you have to start dashing around the screen burning gauge and once I don't have it none of my options can help me out. Although I am improving and I know that Aigis is top tier, this character is pretty much for people with ADD or something because you have to be doing something all. the. time. Plus the Teddie match SUCKS mostly because of his stupid j.A into crazy hit confirms. Trap pressure such as drums really can keep an Aigis on the edge.

    I think the only characters that Aigis truly destroys is Kanji and Liz, maybe the Labbys.
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I don't think he said Aigis is better than Mitsuru...he said all 3 of them are on the highest tier. Aigis mixups are too easy to do and too strong, not to mention leading to ridiculous damage, even without meter. She murders a lot of characters, especially SLab.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    im pretty sure slab does good vs aigis...

    but anyway yes, even though i think those 6 chars are S, i think aigis/mitsuru/chie are all more or less the same strength, but no so far ahead that they need their own tier

    the good things about mitsuru B+D is the big horizontal range and the fact it hits behind, outside of that it has many weaknesses and is easily punished, especially since she doesn't have an air super to cancel into.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    You're equating ease of use with matchup advantage. In reality, this doesn't really matter in tiers where the assumption is that both characters are being played at the highest level, execution be damned.
  • DramatixDramatix Could be better. Joined: Posts: 4,595
    Can someone explain how Mitsuru is S+ tier? I'm not bashing her because I use her, but aren't her moves linear and predictable? I'm just going by what I've heard.
    "Everyone in here has had someone who tried to convince them that they were sexually harassed, and you did not believe them because they were not cute."
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    Can someone explain how Mitsuru is S+ tier? I'm not bashing her because I use her, but aren't her moves linear and predictable? I'm just going by what I've heard.
    Good frame data and priority. She's like 3S Chun in that she's quite linear, but she's very solid.
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Can someone explain how Mitsuru is S+ tier? I'm not bashing her because I use her, but aren't her moves linear and predictable? I'm just going by what I've heard.

    She isn't much of a mixup character (though she does have some damaging mixup with meter). The problem is her normals are too good and it's not really an issue of "how do I block this?" as it is "when can I do something other than block?". Now R-actions can be a solution to a lot of problems but the problem here is that Mitsuru has probably the most damaging combos in the game (I suppose Elizabeth's are more damaging). You can die in 2 Mitsuru combos most of the time, so it's quite risky to make reversal guesses to get out of her pressure.

    Her r-action is very good and it doesn't make her go high enough in the air so it's harder to punish than it should be. You have to punish it while she's in the air if she has meter, or she can supercancel it when she lands...if the r-action is airblocked, there's many cases you won't be able to punish it in the air.

    Her risk/reward is greatly skewed in her favor. Worst of all, she is very easy to use and in most cases you don't have to actually think about what you're doing because you can cause many problems for the opponent by just doing moves (and in most cases you can cover a number of situations with single button presses, without thinking about them). The opponent has to go way out of their way to counter simple brainless things that she might do.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • doyoudigwormsdoyoudigworms ..... Joined: Posts: 592
    She isn't much of a mixup character (though she does have some damaging mixup with meter). The problem is her normals are too good and it's not really an issue of "how do I block this?" as it is "when can I do something other than block?". Now R-actions can be a solution to a lot of problems but the problem here is that Mitsuru has probably the most damaging combos in the game (I suppose Elizabeth's are more damaging). You can die in 2 Mitsuru combos most of the time, so it's quite risky to make reversal guesses to get out of her pressure.

    Her r-action is very good and it doesn't make her go high enough in the air so it's harder to punish than it should be. You have to punish it while she's in the air if she has meter, or she can supercancel it when she lands...if the r-action is airblocked, there's many cases you won't be able to punish it in the air.

    Her risk/reward is greatly skewed in her favor. Worst of all, she is very easy to use and in most cases you don't have to actually think about what you're doing because you can cause many problems for the opponent by just doing moves (and in most cases you can cover a number of situations with single button presses, without thinking about them). The opponent has to go way out of their way to counter simple brainless things that she might do.

    Mitsuru is killer, she has all sorts of tools that can change the match-up. However, as the game progresses we are seeing other characters are learning to excel greatly and not only dealing with the Mits match-up but making the match-up generally more favorable for them. She is relatively slow, less than average mix-up (even with meter), poor midscreen combos (without meter and generally the opponent needs to be crouching), her normals and persona attacks can be baited fairly well by some characters and countered for huge punish. Even though Bufudyne is cheap as hell it also can be baited and punished accordingly. Her combos tend to have huge damage output because against skilled players it can be fairly hard to land those combos, which generally need a FC to get max damage from. Many skilled Japanese players are dissecting her block strings and getting huge counter opportunities. They are also controlling space better than they ever have before and taking advantage of her slow normals. Her mix-up is very limited and other than some deadly oki corner set-ups she has a hard time opening up someone who can block very well. She is indeed one of the best but I think in general she is not as strong as she used to be. If the game progresses in it's current state I don't think we will see a decline in her performance per se but I think other characters are now proving their worth and in the hands of truly great players are becoming really very deadly.

    TBH, I'm much more scared of a competent Chie, Teddy, Aigis and even Yu than I am of the average Mitsuru. Not to exclude the already fantastic cast with huge comeback potential.
    3S: Q / VS: Aulbath/Victor / ST: DeeJay / A2: Rose
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    Are people actually still discussing the balance of this game?
  • nihil679nihil679 Joined: Posts: 34
    Are people actually still discussing the balance of this game?

    I for one would like to, but it's so shunned upon by a very spoken part of the community.
  • ThancruzThancruz Joined: Posts: 2,850
    I for one would like to, but it's so shunned upon by a very spoken part of the community.
    I thought the game was generally well accepted?

    Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I for one would like to, but it's so shunned upon by a very spoken part of the community.

    Yeah Mitsuru players really hate it when the topic of balance comes up.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • nihil679nihil679 Joined: Posts: 34
    It's well accepted, but it's not like the game can't have a little bit of balance tweaks to help it be better.

    @Emil ... oddly enough, I think that's true...
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
  • aisightaisight Joined: Posts: 13
    Kanji vs Mitsuru is considered 4.5:5.5? Really?
  • CorreaCorrea HYPER CATINEL FORCE Joined: Posts: 177
    Probably 4:6. Don't think it's any lower than that, given how he works. You can spend the entire match poking him to death and he can still pretty much come back from nothing off one mistake.
    PSN: tcorrea
    P4A: Mitsuru
    UMVC3: Doom / Storm / Sentinel
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    As an Aigis main, I really wanna know what Yukiko can do to us. The MU always starts with me going "well this is mildly annoying, oh wait I can fly" which is when I proceed to superjump, fly in and get a KD, win. Idk if I just don't play good Yukiko players or this is really that frustrating for them.
  • aisightaisight Joined: Posts: 13
    Probably 4:6. Don't think it's any lower than that, given how he works. You can spend the entire match poking him to death and he can still pretty much come back from nothing off one mistake.
    This is what I'd say to describe the matchup against Yukiko. The differences here are that Mitsuru has 9500, not 8500 life, and that in addition to her really safe poking normals she can actually confirm into strong damage. It's not the Elizabeth matchup, but this still feels harder of a matchup than Chie and Teddie, and definitely harder than Labrys, for what it's worth.
  • CorreaCorrea HYPER CATINEL FORCE Joined: Posts: 177
    Life difference shouldn't matter too much, Mitsuru needs to be in to do any damage, which generally should give Kanji more opportunities; Yukiko's happy keeping him full-screen all day. And none of Mitsurus pokes convert into good damage, other than counter-hit 5A on crouching characters (which you still have to crouch-confirm and be either close enough to the corner or OMC if midscreen).

    All of her big damage comes from making reads into either 4B, Sweep, 2B anti-air or corner throw, all of which are hard to land on Kanji due to DP, command grab, FC j.C and later in the match, the grab super (this tends to happen a lot if she ever tries to go in).

    The proper way to play that match is to stay as safe as possible, avoid taking any risks, watch out for DPs, don't challenge j.C or air grab and poke with 5A (then immediately back off) until he dies, which more or less means giving up on good damage. The only way she can reliably get any real damage is if the Kanji player makes a fairly big mistake.
    PSN: tcorrea
    P4A: Mitsuru
    UMVC3: Doom / Storm / Sentinel
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    After dedicating my time to Aegis and labbing and doing all sorts of thing, I gotta say she's the best IMO. The rest of the cast is strong enough to keep up with her. I'm looking at it like this:

    Top 5: Aegis, Mitsuru, Chie, Yu, Teddie in any real order.
    Right outside top 5: Akihiko, Yosuke

    Then everybody else. The overall design makes it so everybody can bop everybody given a chance, so it works out pretty well.

    Also, I gottas disagree with the Aegis - Teddie match on our chart. Teddie's neutral is more than enough to deal with Aigis and he has one of the best answers to deal with her oki and pressure. He's one of 2 characters who can truly get out of her safe oki set ups, he keeps her out and can nuke her zoning, and on top of all that his game works pretty well on her defense. That being said, Aegis is Aegis and can always get a hit > 4k > guess right > death. Teddie is just the only character who really doesn't have to be afraid of her. Slight advantage Teddie, probably 6 - 4.
  • Lord KnightLord Knight MONEY. WOMEN. POWER. Joined: Posts: 242
    Life difference shouldn't matter too much, Mitsuru needs to be in to do any damage, which generally should give Kanji more opportunities; Yukiko's happy keeping him full-screen all day. And none of Mitsurus pokes convert into good damage, other than counter-hit 5A on crouching characters (which you still have to crouch-confirm and be either close enough to the corner or OMC if midscreen).

    All of her big damage comes from making reads into either 4B, Sweep, 2B anti-air or corner throw, all of which are hard to land on Kanji due to DP, command grab, FC j.C and later in the match, the grab super (this tends to happen a lot if she ever tries to go in).

    The proper way to play that match is to stay as safe as possible, avoid taking any risks, watch out for DPs, don't challenge j.C or air grab and poke with 5A (then immediately back off) until he dies, which more or less means giving up on good damage. The only way she can reliably get any real damage is if the Kanji player makes a fairly big mistake.

    to be fair, that round shouldve been over off the first random sweep
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    What's the most recent, japanese official (or perhaps semi-official, if it's coming from some specific japanese top player) tierlist for this game?
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • aisightaisight Joined: Posts: 13
    Apparently it's something like

    S (in order): Mitsuru, Chie, Teddie, Aigis, Narukami
    A: Yosuke, Naoto, Shadow Labrys, Yukiko, Akihiko
    B: Labrys, Elizabeth, Kanji
  • LythiumLythium #salty #hashbrown Joined: Posts: 116
    Whoa, Naoto.

    How did you get so high up there?
  • aisightaisight Joined: Posts: 13
    A and B aren't in order, only the top 5 (S tier) are ordered.
  • LythiumLythium #salty #hashbrown Joined: Posts: 116
    Ah, I see.

    Thanks!
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