How can you measure good keep-away?

just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭✭
I have recently adopted a keep-away team that goes Ammy/Arthur/Haggar. The goal is to wear down the team with Ammy and then use XF2 Gold Arthur plus Lariat to chip for the win. However, a lot of people online consider this outright spamming and I get a LOT (more in the past two days since I've started playing the game) of ragemail and BM, even though I set aside most of my resources for that set-up. This has me wondering: How and where can you draw the line between keep-away and spamming?
[quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
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  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭
    well good zoning requires you to make good decisions about your projectile usage such that you counter whatever movements the opponent ends up making. Spamming is typically just filling the screen with stuff without really having to think or make decisions about what you're doing.

    That said, a lot of legitimate keepaway/zoning gets miscategorized as spamming by scrubs that don't know better.
    KoF97 - Chizuru/Yamazaki/Choi | KoF98 - Chizuru/Iori/Kyo/O.Chris | KoF2k2 - Kim/Whip/Athena/Choi |
    Kof13 - Duolon/Kim/Shen Woo | UMVC3 - Morrigan/Doom/Magneto | P4U - Shadow Labrys | SFxT - Lili/Xiaoyu |
    GGXXAC - DIZZY
  • OniLoverOniLover Joined: Posts: 384 ✭✭
    Keepaway is keeping someone away.

    Spamming is using a move over and over again.

    If they are keptaway by spamming, it deserves to be called keepaway, not spamming.
  • DreizeDreize How quaint... Joined: Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭
    If someone is getting mad at you for using Arthur of all characters, just ignore it. They have 0 idea as to what they're talking about.

    Same thing when people get mad at me for zoning with Hawkeye, either they are retarded or just don't realize that Hawkeye is a zoning based character; his combos and close range game aren't that great.

    Also, Hagger on anchor? To be honest with you, I'd be embarrassed if I even lost to that team; I would never send ragemail to cover up my own shortcomings. In-fact, if you had a really good Arthur or Haggar I would probably send you a nice little compliment.

    Repeatedly using s.H with Ammy or mashing pipes with Haggar is considered spamming. Using Arthur's projectiles to keep someone out isn't.

    Ignore the salty kids who are just angry that their Vergil derp tactics couldn't beat your team. Keep on rockin' that Ammy/Arthur/Haggar, zoning is a legitimate part of this game and some characters are intended to do it by design.
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭✭
    Yeah a HULK player beat me and raged at ME for spamming. Talk about a double standard...
    I think Hulk players are probably the worst at ragemailing. I think they seriously expect you to throw slow, single-hitting moves directly in their face. Then again, I did have a Ryu player ragequit when his point Ryu was reduced to 50% health by Ammy. AND HE STILL HAD SPENCER AND VERGIL LEFT!:xeye:
    People online for this game are funny sometimes.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • DreizeDreize How quaint... Joined: Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭
    Hulk players expect you to walk right up to them and get hit by their s.H, if you're zoning, walking away, etc you're considered to be a "cheap run-away bitch". Somehow you not wanting to lose makes you a bitch.

    Such an infallible tactic, dat s.H.
  • JukeboxHeroJukeboxHero Joined: Posts: 16
    I've always considered keep away the Judo style of fighting games. It's less of trying to make something happen, and more anticipating movements and appropriately countering the opponent's options.

    I, for example, use Deadpool. At the start, I will often do a couple j. m happy trigs. If they are full screen away and they try to normal jump, I'll do a standing m happy trigs, and when they land I'll go for H happy trigs. Now, I have no reason to go for H Happy trigs--they have yet to super jump on me. In fact, if they would stop and think that I'm trying to guess what their movement is going to be (which is required with most zoning characters--because their vitality is usually atrocious), they would simply wave dash during my recovery and force me to use hyper or eat the damage.

    That's the big difference between spamming and keep away. Spamming is definitely a more "this move rocks and beats just about everything so I better use it" (looking at you Akuma and online Hulk) versus: "I'm going to strategically and thoughtfully maneuver and put shit on the screen that will put me at an advantage...assuming I guessed correctly."
  • JediLinkJediLink Has 100%'d Super Smash Bros Melee Joined: Posts: 719
    Who cares if it's spamming or not? If it works, keep doing it.
    UMvC3: Zero/Dante/Hiryu and Wright/Akuma/Hiryu
    Melee and Project M: Marth
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭
    Who cares if it's spamming or not? If it works, keep doing it.

    This mentality explains why you think marvel online with 2 bars can be playable when most people say 4-5 bars is unplayable.
    KoF97 - Chizuru/Yamazaki/Choi | KoF98 - Chizuru/Iori/Kyo/O.Chris | KoF2k2 - Kim/Whip/Athena/Choi |
    Kof13 - Duolon/Kim/Shen Woo | UMVC3 - Morrigan/Doom/Magneto | P4U - Shadow Labrys | SFxT - Lili/Xiaoyu |
    GGXXAC - DIZZY
  • JediLinkJediLink Has 100%'d Super Smash Bros Melee Joined: Posts: 719
    This mentality explains why you think marvel online with 2 bars can be playable when most people say 4-5 bars is unplayable.

    Do I need to link the video again?
    UMvC3: Zero/Dante/Hiryu and Wright/Akuma/Hiryu
    Melee and Project M: Marth
  • shoultzulashoultzula whatsyoursismines! Joined: Posts: 4,503
    This mentality explains why you think marvel online with 2 bars can be playable when most people say 4-5 bars is unplayable.

    hahaha

    Ironically, I was surfing capcomunity the other day looking @ shit and I saw jedilink on there. Go figure that the person who says umvc3 is god like online also is from capcomunity. It all makes sense now.

    I think great keep away has 2 standards. 1st, you need to never let them get close to you. The more aggrivating it is to dodge the keep away to actually get close indicates the strength of the keep away. 2nd, unlike mvc2, there are no 100% traps in umvc3. There is ALWAYS a break in keep away strategies. These breaks due to way the game is basically gives your opponent probability to sneak in. The other major part about keep away is that once you actually get rushed, how likely is it you can go back to keeping away again?

    if your character can keep away for so long they have the hardest time getting in AND if they manage to sneak in and you can get away to go back to keep away consistently, then I'd say its a very strong keep away.
    I don't have it but watch me get it.
  • lawlHTlawlHT youtube player Joined: Posts: 535
    This mentality explains why you think marvel online with 2 bars can be playable when most people say 4-5 bars is unplayable.

    regardless of the state of online marvel 3, the mentality applies to offline as well. if i'm throwing out projectiles and my opponent has no response whatsoever, there is no motivation for me to stop doing the move. play to win.
    PSN: lawlHT
    UMVC3: Frauderbrand/Super Skrub/Trollmaster -currently learning: Dante, Dormammu-
    P4 Arena: Mitsuru, Labrys - Skullgirls: Filia - SSF4:AE2012: Sakura
  • JediLinkJediLink Has 100%'d Super Smash Bros Melee Joined: Posts: 719
    hahaha

    Ironically, I was surfing capcomunity the other day looking @ shit and I saw jedilink on there. Go figure that the person who says umvc3 is god like online also is from capcomunity. It all makes sense now.
    I'm not saying that it makes no difference; that would be stupid. What I'm saying is that unless you play really high execution characters (which most people don't), you're going to be able to do online at least 90% of what you can do offline.
    DISCLAIMER: For the 5th time or so, I'm not saying that UMvC3 online is the best thing ever or that it's the same as offline. I know it's not. All I'm saying is that for most of the cast, a little bit of lag isn't going to make that big of a difference.
    ALSO, IN CASE IT HASN'T ALREADY BEEN MADE CLEAR, I'M NOT SAYING THAT UMVC3 ONLINE IS GOOD. I'M JUST SAYING THAT IT'S PLAYABLE.

    Learn to read.
    UMvC3: Zero/Dante/Hiryu and Wright/Akuma/Hiryu
    Melee and Project M: Marth
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭
    regardless of the state of online marvel 3, the mentality applies to offline as well. if i'm throwing out projectiles and my opponent has no response whatsoever, there is no motivation for me to stop doing the move. play to win.

    It really doesn't at the highest level. Do you think good players wait to be countered before they stop doing something? They can't afford to be countered, especially when it matters. In the highest level play especially, it's all about anticipating that the opponent probably will adapt on the next attempt you do something, and thus thinking ahead to that point rather than actually waiting to be countered before you do something different.

    This is how keep-away/zoning (yes I know they aren't necessarily the same) should be. you should actually anticipate that the opponent will catch on and think ahead to your next action that will counter their adaptation. But you shouldn't actually be waiting for someone to catch on before you change it up.
    KoF97 - Chizuru/Yamazaki/Choi | KoF98 - Chizuru/Iori/Kyo/O.Chris | KoF2k2 - Kim/Whip/Athena/Choi |
    Kof13 - Duolon/Kim/Shen Woo | UMVC3 - Morrigan/Doom/Magneto | P4U - Shadow Labrys | SFxT - Lili/Xiaoyu |
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  • TheTR3NDSETTATheTR3NDSETTA Joined: Posts: 238
    My Nemesis plays a strong keepaway game with his rocket launcher and tentacles backed up by Jam Session and drones every now and then. Once the opponent tries to get in they get hit with his s. H, l. H ( a great weapon vs haggar's pipe ) which have armor and then I finish them off with Nem+Sent DHC. It is highly effective keepaway but you do have to always look at your opponents position on the screen, how many bars they have in case they want to punish your assist and what char they are using.

    In other words, good keepaway requires great reads and is effective.
    Spamming requires button mashing and will often get you bodied.
    Nemesis/Sentinel/Dante
    It was a pleasure destroying your top tier chars.
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭✭
    hahaha

    Ironically, I was surfing capcomunity the other day looking @ shit and I saw jedilink on there. Go figure that the person who says umvc3 is god like online also is from capcomunity. It all makes sense now.

    I think great keep away has 2 standards. 1st, you need to never let them get close to you. The more aggrivating it is to dodge the keep away to actually get close indicates the strength of the keep away. 2nd, unlike mvc2, there are no 100% traps in umvc3. There is ALWAYS a break in keep away strategies. These breaks due to way the game is basically gives your opponent probability to sneak in. The other major part about keep away is that once you actually get rushed, how likely is it you can go back to keeping away again?

    if your character can keep away for so long they have the hardest time getting in AND if they manage to sneak in and you can get away to go back to keep away consistently, then I'd say its a very strong keep away.

    In that case, Arthur/Haggar is legit. You get Lariat'd when you finally aproach Arthur. He then jumps back and continues firing/throwing. Also, Ammy becomes derp with daggers and lariat. If I get hit, I screwed up pretty badly or got baited. Thanks.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • lawlHTlawlHT youtube player Joined: Posts: 535
    It really doesn't at the highest level. Do you think good players wait to be countered before they stop doing something? They can't afford to be countered, especially when it matters. In the highest level play especially, it's all about anticipating that the opponent probably will adapt on the next attempt you do something, and thus thinking ahead to that point rather than actually waiting to be countered before you do something different.

    This is how keep-away/zoning (yes I know they aren't necessarily the same) should be. you should actually anticipate that the opponent will catch on and think ahead to your next action that will counter their adaptation. But you shouldn't actually be waiting for someone to catch on before you change it up.

    congratulations, you missed the entire fucking point of my post. maybe it would help if i wrote it in japanese for you?
    PSN: lawlHT
    UMVC3: Frauderbrand/Super Skrub/Trollmaster -currently learning: Dante, Dormammu-
    P4 Arena: Mitsuru, Labrys - Skullgirls: Filia - SSF4:AE2012: Sakura
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭
    congratulations, you missed the entire fucking point of my post. maybe it would help if i wrote it in japanese for you?

    No I didn't, you don't understand the deeper mental game within fighters it seems.
    KoF97 - Chizuru/Yamazaki/Choi | KoF98 - Chizuru/Iori/Kyo/O.Chris | KoF2k2 - Kim/Whip/Athena/Choi |
    Kof13 - Duolon/Kim/Shen Woo | UMVC3 - Morrigan/Doom/Magneto | P4U - Shadow Labrys | SFxT - Lili/Xiaoyu |
    GGXXAC - DIZZY
  • lawlHTlawlHT youtube player Joined: Posts: 535
    No I didn't, you don't understand the deeper mental game within fighters it seems.

    um, yes i do. you can try to anticipate your opponent all you want, if they sit full screen away while you pelt them with Morridoom, you have absolutely no reason to stop doing what you're doing. in spite of how deep you like to believe you think, until your opponent shows some sort of sign of figuring it out, you would be a fool to change up your gameplan.
    PSN: lawlHT
    UMVC3: Frauderbrand/Super Skrub/Trollmaster -currently learning: Dante, Dormammu-
    P4 Arena: Mitsuru, Labrys - Skullgirls: Filia - SSF4:AE2012: Sakura
  • shoultzulashoultzula whatsyoursismines! Joined: Posts: 4,503
    regardless of the state of online marvel 3, the mentality applies to offline as well. if i'm throwing out projectiles and my opponent has no response whatsoever, there is no motivation for me to stop doing the move. play to win.

    you're not taking into account how good players abuse counters.

    really good players will actually let you do something stupid over and over if it means they can kill you for it in a good spot. So there will be times where you will actually get away with it when they want you to so you can build a bad habit they can punish you later for. If you constantly counter something, eventually the opponent learns what you're doing. What you can do is keep tabs of what can be countered, then @ the right time go for the counter when it will yield the biggest reward.

    what I do is abuse layers that always allow me a way out. What this does is if my opponent is keeping tabs on my layers and is looking for a good spot to counter, I can always have extended options to what I'm doing to make it safe. With morrigan, its being in flight mode so you unfly in 1f but not every character can do that. You have to find unique ways that pertain to your character.
    I don't have it but watch me get it.
  • X Fatal Grace XX Fatal Grace X Joined: Posts: 232
    Measure of a good keep away:
    If they can't get I'm on you, rage quit, send hate mail saying quit spamming and they were the victim of a loss or initiated the rage quit, or simply... You win, these are all effective measuring tools for proper keep away.
  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,329
    Proper measure of good keep away? Your win ratio to your perfect ratio. They never are going to hit you if you got amazing keep away right?
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
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  • DrkD23DrkD23 Have at Thee! Joined: Posts: 234
    If you wanna measure good keep away in any fighting game, look for characters that are designed to negate or lessen the effectiveness of your keep away. Get a friend and practice against them, and keep them out.

    Zoning can be a way to set it up, putting your opponent where you want them so you can keep them out until you want them in

    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk 2
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  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    Gahh this game is harsh for a dedicated keep away specialist. Being that this is Marvel Vs TOD combo 3, someone playing keep away can't take advantage of the broken melee mechanics. So if you slip up it could be all over, but your opponent can make a ton of mistakes and still come out on top if you don't play a perfect game.

    So theres a lot more pressure on the keep away player, with every victory defying the odds in a game that does not support this play style.
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
  • SteelgutteySteelguttey MoThErFuCkEr Joined: Posts: 729
    Look. Good keepaway needs good assists, and good assist calls. People online get mad because they don't know hoe easily punishable and keepaway character is, especially arthur. His main strength is that he beats out almost any assist call with the flick of a finger from fullscreen, they you get Goddess Bracelet loop'd. Thats why meter is so damn important for arthur, his ability to punish bad assist calls so they cant mindlessley use assists to punish your shit is better than any other character. Plus ginger midget knights are cool.
    XBL: Steelguttey
    UMVC3: Main: Amaterasu (Cold Star), Frank West (Shopping Cart), Dante (Jam Session)
  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    Look. Good keepaway needs good assists, and good assist calls. People online get mad because they don't know hoe easily punishable and keepaway character is, especially arthur. His main strength is that he beats out almost any assist call with the flick of a finger from fullscreen, they you get Goddess Bracelet loop'd. Thats why meter is so damn important for arthur, his ability to punish bad assist calls so they cant mindlessley use assists to punish your shit is better than any other character. Plus ginger midget knights are cool.


    Punish assists at the flick of a finger? wha?

    And he is NOT a midget. I'll have you know in his world he is normal sized good sir.
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
  • SteelgutteySteelguttey MoThErFuCkEr Joined: Posts: 729
    Punish assists at the flick of a finger? wha?

    And he is NOT a midget. I'll have you know in his world he is normal sized good sir.
    let me rephrase that. he can punish the top assists like missiles and drones with meter. its why he needs meter so damn much.
    XBL: Steelguttey
    UMVC3: Main: Amaterasu (Cold Star), Frank West (Shopping Cart), Dante (Jam Session)
  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    let me rephrase that. he can punish the top assists like missiles and drones with meter. its why he needs meter so damn much.


    Naaa my Arthur is pretty tough without meter, and often opponents will stand in front of the bracelet and block to protect their assist.

    The main thing about not having meter when he's out is ending air combos. Hate not having meter at such a time and having them get away without inflicting as much damage as i can(just have to settle with three daggers after the fire bottle in that instance).
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
  • SteelgutteySteelguttey MoThErFuCkEr Joined: Posts: 729
    Naaa my Arthur is pretty tough without meter, and often opponents will stand in front of the bracelet and block to protect their assist.

    The main thing about not having meter when he's out is ending air combos. Hate not having meter at such a time and having them get away without inflicting as much damage as i can(just have to settle with three daggers after the fire bottle in that instance).
    Well who are you running? i just try to put as much shit as possibru on the screen if indont have meter, dont even gomfor the otg. The great part about ending combos in gpddess bracelet is that you can jump back and reset your keepaway
    XBL: Steelguttey
    UMVC3: Main: Amaterasu (Cold Star), Frank West (Shopping Cart), Dante (Jam Session)
  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    Well who are you running? i just try to put as much shit as possibru on the screen if indont have meter, dont even gomfor the otg. The great part about ending combos in gpddess bracelet is that you can jump back and reset your keepaway


    Heck no. If i score that air combo its silly not to do the fire bottle OTG+daggers at least. Gotta take what you can get in this game.

    Arthur/Hawkeye/Doom
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
  • view619view619 ざわ ざわ ざわ Joined: Posts: 1,686
    If you can consistently control the opponent's movements and dominate them from range, while being able to prep for and avoid situations where the opponent may have an entrance to approach, then you're basically playing good keep-away. If somebody loses, their argument is void. Regardless of how you lost, you lost. Just ignore the people raging that the match didn't go their way.
    Arthur/Hawkeye/Doom

    Why not just go Arthur/Doom/Hawkeye and learn some air loop/tac infinite with Doom so you can kill off of a hit -> TAC with Arthur? You have to make use of the broken combo mechanics some how or you just end up gimping yourself.
    "You can lead a scrub to techniques, but you can't make him think."
  • SteelgutteySteelguttey MoThErFuCkEr Joined: Posts: 729
    Heck no. If i score that air combo its silly not to do the fire bottle OTG+daggers at least. Gotta take what you can get in this game.

    Arthur/Hawkeye/Doom
    Yeah, but I like making them panic at low health and hard-tag. And plus with meter building assist I also get GMFD which basically means if you let me call my assist enough, you cant call an assist or losing two characters. Then arthur dies and its up to MorriDoom, which I like.
    XBL: Steelguttey
    UMVC3: Main: Amaterasu (Cold Star), Frank West (Shopping Cart), Dante (Jam Session)
  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    Why not just go Arthur/Doom/Hawkeye and learn some air loop/tac infinite with Doom so you can kill off of a hit -> TAC with Arthur? You have to make use of the broken combo mechanics some how or you just end up gimping yourself.

    Yeah my Doom sucks. I play him like a projectile character.
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
  • SteelgutteySteelguttey MoThErFuCkEr Joined: Posts: 729
    Yeah my Doom sucks. I play him like a projectile character.
    If you play him online just footdive. Always works. (Please know that Im joking, dont do that.)
    XBL: Steelguttey
    UMVC3: Main: Amaterasu (Cold Star), Frank West (Shopping Cart), Dante (Jam Session)
  • view619view619 ざわ ざわ ざわ Joined: Posts: 1,686
    Yeah my Doom sucks. I play him like a projectile character.
    Still, the "free" TOD combo with Arthur must be tempting. You can play him as a zoner and learn that one tac combo so Arthur can essentially kill off of any hit and gain a shit ton of meter in the process. It's marvel 3.
    "You can lead a scrub to techniques, but you can't make him think."
  • SteelgutteySteelguttey MoThErFuCkEr Joined: Posts: 729
    Still, the "free" TOD combo with Arthur must be tempting. You can play him as a zoner and learn that one tac combo so Arthur can essentially kill off of any hit and gain a shit ton of meter in the process. It's marvel 3.
    But TACing is too cheap for me... I just feel bad when I do it.
    XBL: Steelguttey
    UMVC3: Main: Amaterasu (Cold Star), Frank West (Shopping Cart), Dante (Jam Session)
  • view619view619 ざわ ざわ ざわ Joined: Posts: 1,686
    But TACing is too cheap for me... I just feel bad when I do it.

    Fuck that. You play the game, you use the tools. Not your fault dumb tools exist, but you can bet your ass that your opponent wont hesitate to use it against you.
    "You can lead a scrub to techniques, but you can't make him think."
  • SteelgutteySteelguttey MoThErFuCkEr Joined: Posts: 729
    Fuck that. You play the game, you use the tools. Not your fault dumb tools exist, but you can bet your ass that your opponent wont hesitate to use it against you.
    And the best thing I can get off of them online is MMHS. Shit is impossible online. Plus you can break them, I like my things to be guaranteed.
    XBL: Steelguttey
    UMVC3: Main: Amaterasu (Cold Star), Frank West (Shopping Cart), Dante (Jam Session)
  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    Still, the "free" TOD combo with Arthur must be tempting. You can play him as a zoner and learn that one tac combo so Arthur can essentially kill off of any hit and gain a shit ton of meter in the process. It's marvel 3.


    HuH? Arthur has no TODs.
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
  • view619view619 ざわ ざわ ざわ Joined: Posts: 1,686
    HuH? Arthur has no TODs.

    Arthur TAC into Doom is a three way guess into possible TOD. Who cares if it can be broken when the alternative is leaving the character you just hit alive so they can try getting in on you again, and then killing you off of one hit?
    "You can lead a scrub to techniques, but you can't make him think."
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭✭
    HuH? Arthur has no TODs.

    He means using the Doom TAC infinite to score a kill. I wouldn't really call it a TOD for Arthur because he did almost nothing in that combo, but it can lead to a kill from a hit that point Arthur landed, so some may consider it a TOD for him.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • MrBGuyMrBGuy #yolo Joined: Posts: 483 ✭✭✭
    If you can consistently control the opponent's movements and dominate them from range, while being able to prep for and avoid situations where the opponent may have an entrance to approach, then you're basically playing good keep-away. If somebody loses, their argument is void. Regardless of how you lost, you lost. Just ignore the people raging that the match didn't go their way.
    Very much agree. I believe the pinnacle of keepaway isn't just making it so the opponent never gets close to you, but it is when you take control of the zone in between yourself and the opponent so that you can pick and choose your points of attack and escape, similar to a hit and run style. Take ChrisG for example: at first, his Morrigan was all about firing as many soul fists so that you don't have the chance to get close to her. Now, he uses her mobility not only as a way of attacking and being able to cover her mixups, but to cover her escape as soon as he realizes the opponent didn't get opened up. As much as I love Arthur, I realized he couldn't fit in into this play style as well as other characters can when it came to high level play. Having many daggers and axes doesn't change the fact that his mobility is very limited, which I think is the reason why he isn't as dominant as a zoning neutral character like say Morrigan or Wesker.
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    Injustice: Batman; Batgirl
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  • d3vd3v #MAXCPM Fiber Override Joined: Posts: 24,470 mod
    How and where can you draw the line between keep-away and spamming?
    There is no line.

    If repeatedly just throwing out shizz works against your opponent, then by all means do it. If you aren't being forced to adapt by your opponent, then you don't need to.
    Love arcade sticks? Then BUY MY SHIRT.
  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    If you can consistently control the opponent's movements and dominate them from range, while being able to prep for and avoid situations where the opponent may have an entrance to approach, then you're basically playing good keep-away. If somebody loses, their argument is void. Regardless of how you lost, you lost. Just ignore the people raging that the match didn't go their way.


    You have to remember what game we're in though. A person can play great keepaway and still lose in the end, because the select few times they got caught the opponent wrecked their shit with obnoxious, long damaging combos.

    A keep away player has to work a lot harder in this game and has more pressure on them to play perfectly. Its always an up-hill battle.

    Very much agree. I believe the pinnacle of keepaway isn't just making it so the opponent never gets close to you, but it is when you take control of the zone in between yourself and the opponent so that you can pick and choose your points of attack and escape, similar to a hit and run style. Take ChrisG for example: at first, his Morrigan was all about firing as many soul fists so that you don't have the chance to get close to her. Now, he uses her mobility not only as a way of attacking and being able to cover her mixups, but to cover her escape as soon as he realizes the opponent didn't get opened up. As much as I love Arthur, I realized he couldn't fit in into this play style as well as other characters can when it came to high level play. Having many daggers and axes doesn't change the fact that his mobility is very limited, which I think is the reason why he isn't as dominant as a zoning neutral character like say Morrigan or Wesker.


    You don't give Arthur enough credit. The only thing he really lacks is a standing dash. Otherwise his jumping speed is ok, double jump is great for mindgames, and jumping S is awesome for mobility and the surprise offensive pressure.

    Then he has a great option with fire bottle which serve various purposes in the air.
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
  • LegendaryDJLegendaryDJ I'm Done Joined: Posts: 2,771
    You measure it with a ruler. If the other guy is less than inches from your character, your keep away is wrong.
  • view619view619 ざわ ざわ ざわ Joined: Posts: 1,686
    snip
    Which is why when you land a combo for w/e reason during your zoning game, it needs to hurt. No reason to do combos that don't kill a character in this game.
    "You can lead a scrub to techniques, but you can't make him think."
  • MrBGuyMrBGuy #yolo Joined: Posts: 483 ✭✭✭
    You have to remember what game we're in though. A person can play great keepaway and still lose in the end, because the select few times they got caught the opponent wrecked their shit with obnoxious, long damaging combos.
    A keep away player has to work a lot harder in this game and has more pressure on them to play perfectly. Its always an up-hill battle.
    Exactly my point: playing pure keepaway requires a lot more work if your only goal is to not let your opponent hit you. That's why I said in order to improve the effectiveness of keepaway, you have to mix it with styles of zoning where you pick you points of attack. Also, it helps if the character you're playing is able to do decent amount of damage if they do land a combo.
    You don't give Arthur enough credit. The only thing he really lacks is a standing dash. Otherwise his jumping speed is ok, double jump is great for mindgames, and jumping S is awesome for mobility and the surprise offensive pressure.

    Then he has a great option with fire bottle which serve various purposes in the air.
    If anyone can win consistently with Arthur, that's pretty godlike, but a lot of the times I see him win is because the opponent did not know how to fight the matchup properly i.e. crouchblocking/calling assists trying to get in on him when he has gold armor XF3. I'm not discrediting anyone playing him, but there are ways to totally shut down his game if you're playing some of his bad matchup characters. I have played him in tournaments, have put him up against high level players, and from past experience, it only took them a couple games to exploit Arthur's weaknesses.
    I'm mostly basing my argument off of having him at anchor. I don't have too much experience with him backed up with missiles or anything, so I can't say if he can prove to be as effective as Morrigan or Hawkeye. If you think his jumping speed is okay, then yeah, stick with Arthur. For me, that's one of his biggest weaknesses, outside of his dash. His j.S does solve part of the problem, but its pretty obvious where you are going to commit when you do it, and that only solves his vertical movement, not his horizontal.
    UMvC3 Main: Dante / Morrigan / Strider
    The Original Squad: Wesker / Deadpool / Arthur
    Experiment team: Zero / Morrigan / Doom
    Injustice: Batman; Batgirl
    SFxT: Hei/King
  • JediLinkJediLink Has 100%'d Super Smash Bros Melee Joined: Posts: 719
    You measure it with a ruler. If the other guy is less than inches from your character, your keep away is wrong.

    What if you have a really large TV?
    UMvC3: Zero/Dante/Hiryu and Wright/Akuma/Hiryu
    Melee and Project M: Marth
  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    Exactly my point: playing pure keepaway requires a lot more work if your only goal is to not let your opponent hit you. That's why I said in order to improve the effectiveness of keepaway, you have to mix it with styles of zoning where you pick you points of attack. Also, it helps if the character you're playing is able to do decent amount of damage if they do land a combo.

    If anyone can win consistently with Arthur, that's pretty godlike, but a lot of the times I see him win is because the opponent did not know how to fight the matchup properly i.e. crouchblocking/calling assists trying to get in on him when he has gold armor XF3. I'm not discrediting anyone playing him, but there are ways to totally shut down his game if you're playing some of his bad matchup characters. I have played him in tournaments, have put him up against high level players, and from past experience, it only took them a couple games to exploit Arthur's weaknesses.
    I'm mostly basing my argument off of having him at anchor. I don't have too much experience with him backed up with missiles or anything, so I can't say if he can prove to be as effective as Morrigan or Hawkeye. If you think his jumping speed is okay, then yeah, stick with Arthur. For me, that's one of his biggest weaknesses, outside of his dash. His j.S does solve part of the problem, but its pretty obvious where you are going to commit when you do it, and that only solves his vertical movement, not his horizontal.


    My point Arthur is pretty decent-good. Only characters that give me trouble anymore are Captain America, Hulk, Spencer, and Dorm. Because their strengths happen to be the direct antithesis to his. As in, their retarded armored/invincible moves that one can spam on reaction and it'll plow through almost everything.

    For everyone else on the roster though, i have an answer for their tactics.
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
  • SteelgutteySteelguttey MoThErFuCkEr Joined: Posts: 729
    My point Arthur is pretty decent-good. Only characters that give me trouble anymore are Captain America, Hulk, Spencer, and Dorm. Because their strengths happen to be the direct antithesis to his. As in, their retarded armored/invincible moves that one can spam on reaction and it'll plow through almost everything.

    For everyone else on the roster though, i have an answer for their tactics.
    You forgot any character with a teleport. And the top 8 thats not viper. And your getting beaten by hulk? Mash missiles moar, use jumping axe then daggers.
    XBL: Steelguttey
    UMVC3: Main: Amaterasu (Cold Star), Frank West (Shopping Cart), Dante (Jam Session)
  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    You forgot any character with a teleport. And the top 8 thats not viper. And your getting beaten by hulk? Mash missiles moar, use jumping axe then daggers.


    Teleport characters aren't a big deal actually.

    And hulks are just so overbearing and always trying to get in your face at the very start of the match. If i can withstand that initial onslaught and get them away, its not bad, but if they catch me with something then my s**t gets wrecked.

    Seriously....armored moves, invincible supers, a million health, crazy damage? Why the $%&# wasn't Hulk nerfed like Sent was for some measure of balance?
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
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