There is no "lame", only zoning: The keep-away thread

245

Comments

  • ironboy89ironboy89 Beep Boop Beep Joined: Posts: 4,659 ✭✭✭
    I assure you that if Arthur didn't have to worry about his Gold Armor hardknockdown and wasting a bar , he wouldn't be in the same character.
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    I assure you that if Arthur didn't have to worry about his Gold Armor hardknockdown and wasting a bar , he wouldn't be in the same character.

    I love how they make him bad, yet they buff Ryu from mid-tier to ... mid-tier. Then you have characters like Ghost Rider where you seriously think the designers were drunk when they made him. Whoever designed Vergil was on crack, though. Gotta love Capcom's variety in workplace drug abuse, eh?
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • BonuspokusBonuspokus My head's on fire Joined: Posts: 315
    The problem with Arthur's movement is that they replicated the original games wayy to much.

    He has the same walk animation, same jump animation, same double jump, etc.

    In this fast paced game, Arthur in that form just doesn't work. He's a slow ass motherfucker with sub-par health, decent zoning capabilities, and a risky level 1 power-up super.

    Characters with teleports essentially blow him up for free as well. He's wasn't designed to be good in this game, plain and simple.
    This.

    A lot of people keep saying that Hsien Ko and Phoenix Wright are the worst characters in this game, even I thought that at first but they are more endgame material than Arthur will ever be if he doesn't get at least a dash.

    Just imagine the game 10 years from now, seriously, Hsien Ko will be doing better than Arthur, in fact, she is already doing better.

    Seriously, this is UMvC3, Arthur's animations are fine but that is not an excuse to make a terrible character.

    It's a shame because I really like him as a character but his lack of movement options is messing him badly.
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    Biography

    I respect that. I run Ammy point because I already know how to use her and she works very well with daggers and lariat. I would run full keep-away, but both Hawkeye and Arthur need meter to be good (mainly Arthur, but Hawkeye is better when he's sitting on Gimlet) and Ammy can't play good keep-away. The problem with a pure, unadulterated keep-away team is that some characters can destroy keep-away (Strange, Vergil, Captain America) so they have to be rushed. Keep-away is difficult to start from the beginning of the round because some characters can start in your face no matter what and never have to get through your keep-away. Make no mistake, I love imagining the look on people's faces when they realize they already burned X-Factor and are about to lose everything because they have no way to stop Arthur from chipping them to death. But moments like that need a set-up. So keep-away from the get-go is very impractical. Look at Chris G's Morrigan. He doesn't start with keep-away when he starts Morrigan, he makes sure they are a distance away before he goes into Bullet Hell mode.

    "So yeah....who else plays pure keep away in a game like this?" Do you mean a player or a character?
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    I respect that. I run Ammy point because I already know how to use her and she works very well with daggers and lariat. I would run full keep-away, but both Hawkeye and Arthur need meter to be good (mainly Arthur, but Hawkeye is better when he's sitting on Gimlet) and Ammy can't play good keep-away. The problem with a pure, unadulterated keep-away team is that some characters can destroy keep-away (Strange, Vergil, Captain America) so they have to be rushed. Keep-away is difficult to start from the beginning of the round because some characters can start in your face no matter what and never have to get through your keep-away. Make no mistake, I love imagining the look on people's faces when they realize they already burned X-Factor and are about to lose everything because they have no way to stop Arthur from chipping them to death. But moments like that need a set-up. So keep-away from the get-go is very impractical. Look at Chris G's Morrigan. He doesn't start with keep-away when he starts Morrigan, he makes sure they are a distance away before he goes into Bullet Hell mode.

    "So yeah....who else plays pure keep away in a game like this?" Do you mean a player or a character?


    Darn i accidentally made a double post when trying to multi-quote someone else, then the board starting acting stupid, etc. You quoted my original before i could fix and repost.

    Anyway, i disagree. My keep away game is pretty solid. There are only a select few characters on the roster that still give me trouble because their strengths just happen to be the direct anti-thesis to mine.

    And i mean player.

    Edit: As for characters walking towards me from the get-go and trying to start the match in my face? lol I've devised methods to deal with that.
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    Darn i accidentally made a double post when trying to multi-quote someone else, then the board starting acting stupid, etc. You quoted my original before i could fix and repost.

    Anyway, i disagree. My keep away game is pretty solid. There are only a select few characters on the roster that still give me trouble because their strengths just happen to be the direct anti-thesis to mine.

    And i mean player.

    Edit: As for characters walking towards me from the get-go and trying to start the match in my face? lol I've devised methods to deal with that.

    Sorry about that. I know SRK glitches and goes full retard fairly often.

    Do you know where I could find a video? I have always wanted to see if Arthur keep-away can work at tourney-level play. The only thing that keeps me from using Hawkeye is that I just don't find the guy interesting. I love keep-away and thought Hawkeye would be fun, but I could never really get into him. I think I just have a thing for characters with a lot of variety in their moveset. I actually toyed around with him back when I ran Joe/Hawkeye/Ammy, but my subpar play with him compared to the other two ruined him a bit for me. I've also never been a huge fan of missiles. I see how the assist works, but I never liked how long Doom just sat there waiting to be hit (and I suck with MvC2-style airdash characters, but don't tell anyone...wait, lol I'm posting this on a forum.:rofl: Never mind). That's why I run Lariat. People get so pissed off by the time they get close they seem to just forget Lariat exists or something. If they snap in that retarded assist, they will find a team that is very good for him (Haggar/Arthur/Ammy) and will have to run away and give me some space or learn to respect "DAT PIPE!"

    As for players, I don't really know any other hardcore keep-away players. You are the first one I've ever heard of. Then again,learning keep-away is a bit of a trial-and-error process, so most players will just stick with the good ol' Spencer/Wesker/Vergil/Zero/Magneto crowd.

    Also, how do you deal with start of the round? I know Arthur doesn't have the best of options there.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    This.

    A lot of people keep saying that Hsien Ko and Phoenix Wright are the worst characters in this game, even I thought that at first but they are more endgame material than Arthur will ever be if he doesn't get at least a dash.

    Just imagine the game 10 years from now, seriously, Hsien Ko will be doing better than Arthur, in fact, she is already doing better.

    Seriously, this is UMvC3, Arthur's animations are fine but that is not an excuse to make a terrible character.

    It's a shame because I really like him as a character but his lack of movement options is messing him badly.

    As long as he has Daggers assist, he will never truly die. If people are willing to put Hsien-Ko in gold armor, they will do the same for Arthur. He might fade from relevance even more somehow because he isn't quite as bad as Hsien-Ko or Phoenix Wright. He's good enough to not be a complete joke, but bad/odd enough to alienate most players from considering him...:(
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • chaotic_masterchaotic_master Joined: Posts: 2
    a really good tactic against zonning and keep away would be teleport characters vergil dante wesker do a great job especially for those doom who only wants to stay on the air....... other one could be just wait till the opponent calls an assist and punish him with a full screen hyper like ryu s one or dante even a bionic arm
  • BonuspokusBonuspokus My head's on fire Joined: Posts: 315
    As long as he has Daggers assist, he will never truly die. If people are willing to put Hsien-Ko in gold armor, they will do the same for Arthur. He might fade from relevance even more somehow because he isn't quite as bad as Hsien-Ko or Phoenix Wright. He's good enough to not be a complete joke, but bad/odd enough to alienate most players from considering him...:(
    Hsien-ko doesn't lose anything for using the golden armor, Arthur on the other hand gets penalized for upgrading his armor.

    Hsien-ko's flaw is getting close to the enemy, that's a bigger problem for Arthur, as I previously said, what are you going to do with Arthur a few years from now on? Keep throwing stuff? His assist is good but armored pendulum is much better, and Hsien Ko's mobility is better than Arthur.

    I have also seen agressive Phoenix Wrights that put Arthur to shame.

    Hawkeye already makes Arthur totally obsolete, he does the same stuff but better. The character needs a dash, it would turn tables so bad.
  • True GraveTrue Grave Keepaway Specialist Joined: Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭
    Sorry about that. I know SRK glitches and goes full retard fairly often.

    Do you know where I could find a video? I have always wanted to see if Arthur keep-away can work at tourney-level play.

    Really wish i could upload vids of my point Arthur in action, but lack the tech to do so.
    The only thing that keeps me from using Hawkeye is that I just don't find the guy interesting. I love keep-away and thought Hawkeye would be fun, but I could never really get into him. I think I just have a thing for characters with a lot of variety in their moveset. I actually toyed around with him back when I ran Joe/Hawkeye/Ammy, but my subpar play with him compared to the other two ruined him a bit for me. I've also never been a huge fan of missiles. I see how the assist works, but I never liked how long Doom just sat there waiting to be hit

    Hawkeye is good, you just gotta spend more time with him and get used to what he does. Hidden missiles are great for many reasons, but yeah, he does stay out there a while. The idea is to Protect him while he's out but that does not always work out
    Also, how do you deal with start of the round? I know Arthur doesn't have the best of options there.

    When you see him intent on getting in from the get-go, do NOT run away. That just puts you closer to the corner and making it easy for them. Instead don't be afraid and run towards him the whole time and before the match starts, jump forward and go for an air throw. Most players will think you're just trying to jump over to evade and go for a throw also.

    This will result in you either winning it or causing a break away, both are good. Or they won't anticipate this and you'll jump over them, where you can proceed to use a double jump to get further away and then use jumping S to reach the ground fast. Or if they're chasing you, jumping back and jumping S to maybe catch them for an air combo. Either way as soon as you can, use Goddess Bracelet to push them back. Totally worth burning a meter.

    As long as he has Daggers assist, he will never truly die. If people are willing to put Hsien-Ko in gold armor, they will do the same for Arthur. He might fade from relevance even more somehow because he isn't quite as bad as Hsien-Ko or Phoenix Wright. He's good enough to not be a complete joke, but bad/odd enough to alienate most players from considering him...:(


    lol i use Hsien-Ko & Phoenix Wright's for target practice. They're no threat for the most part.
    "Power without perception, is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value"
  • .Guy..Guy. STUPID SEXY ROCKET RACCOON! Joined: Posts: 1,901
    Arthur for worst, Joe for most fun keepaway <3

    Hawkeye for gay
    Lieutenant Colonel of the M.O.D.O.K. AVENGERS
    MadTitan brand toothpaste, for the god-like toothy smile. Get it now!
    (Not responsible for the loss of YOUR SOUL)
    UMvC3: Joe/RR/Assmaster, Joe/FrankBest/RR
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • mkryumkryu Joined: Posts: 150
    I play a great keepaway game with Trish backed up with Doom hidden missiles. I lay ground traps and shoot voltage from the air and call hidden missiles when I get them in a position so that Doom will appear behind them. I will also call Hidden Missiles if I get a hit confirm...the missiles OTG so I can do Round Harvest and finish with air Maximum Voltage. If Doom is on point, I get back into the corner and just stagger hidden missles and call Trish for her voltage assist if they try to get close. If I get too pressured I will go into flight and wave dash away until I can get into a good range to start my keepaway game again. I get ALOT of ragequits and hatemail. Most people call me "PUSSY" or "****."
  • JediLinkJediLink Has 100%'d Super Smash Bros Melee Joined: Posts: 719
    I play a great keepaway game with Trish backed up with Doom hidden missiles. I lay ground traps and shoot voltage from the air and call hidden missiles when I get them in a position so that Doom will appear behind them. I will also call Hidden Missiles if I get a hit confirm...the missiles OTG so I can do Round Harvest and finish with air Maximum Voltage. If Doom is on point, I get back into the corner and just stagger hidden missles and call Trish for her voltage assist if they try to get close. If I get too pressured I will go into flight and wave dash away until I can get into a good range to start my keepaway game again. I get ALOT of ragequits and hatemail. Most people call me "PUSSY" or "****."

    From the way you've described it, fighting you sounds like it would be a very painful and unpleasant experience for the common scrub.
    UMvC3: Zero/Dante/Hiryu and Wright/Akuma/Hiryu
    Melee and Project M: Marth
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    From the way you've described it, fighting you sounds like it would be a very painful and unpleasant experience for the common scrub.

    Also applies to Arthur, Hawkeye, MorriDoom, DormDoom, or pretty much any version of Zoner/Missiles, really.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    What some people are calling "keepaway" (just avoid opponent at all costs) is more accurately described as "runaway". See early MVC2 Storm for a good example. The only viable runaway character I've seen in UMVC3 is MODOK; he can simply chill at an altitude that other characters literally cannot reach.

    "Zoning" and "keepaway" are synonymous; the "keep" part of "keepaway" involves, you know, actively keeping them away (usually with projectiles). This is what characters like Hawkeye, Chris, Morrigan, etc. specialize in.

    The "problem" with zoning in this game (at least, compared to MVC2) is that nearly every character has at least one of the following:

    a) teleport
    b) fast projectile super
    c) super with large amount of (projectile) invincibility

    That's not to say that this is necessarily bad (from a balance standpoint), but it accounts for a large portion of why zoning is so much worse in (U)MVC3 than MVC2. That being said, UMVC3 is a damn sight better than vanilla MVC3, in which zoning was just a pointless waste of time; Phoenix dismantled zoning teams with no effort, and Wolvie was nearly impossible to zone, too.

    Zoning isn't totally hopeless in UMVC3 but the deck is certainly stacked against you. Outside of the hardcore anti-zoning characters like Dormammu and Strange, a lot of the rest of the game turns into bait-the-teleport, and teleports aren't quite vulnerable enough to balance that. For example, in Hawkeye vs. Dante, suppose Hawkeye successfully baits a Dante teleport and gets his free airthrow. What now? Well, Hawkeye's combo damage is unimpressive to start with, so when you tack the 50% throw penalty on top, it means you either burn a LOT of meter for the kill, or you dealt 40-50% damage and reset to neutral. And what happens if Dante guessed right? Hawkeye is dead and my next character falls into a completely safe (for Dante) Acid Rain mixup. And this is with a character that has a clean and easy self-combo off of an airthrow; Dante can teleport on someone like Arthur repeatedly with no fear. What is Arthur going to do, land 10 airthrows in a row?

    It would be nice if teleports were slightly more punishable, but given the amount of complaining that exists in this game already (with heavily disadvantaged zoning), I can see why Capcom doesn't want a precisely level playing field.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • DreizeDreize How quaint... Joined: Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭
    I wish Strange was a really good anti-zoner.

    Sadly, he is not. :(

    Dormammu on the other hand, is really good at it.
  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,329
    Fuck this shit. The secret weapon to stop keep away is a well played out Deadpool. You can keep Character/Hidden Missiles at bay with him all day with his guns and properly played fundamentals. Deadpool kills ANY keep away team if used even half correctly.

    Dorm/Missiles ain't shit in front of Deadpool.
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
    I play all fighting games.
    Youtube<<Combos/Tutorials | TwitchTv<<Stream
    Support our new clothing company, Meaty Mob! http://meatymob.com
  • UntitledScrubUntitledScrub Joined: Posts: 256
    How is "Zoning" (to clarify I'm referring to a DiosX style) with Drones compare to missles? Drones covers the ground perfectly fine but what happens when they superjump? Ofcourse this is character specific but are there any clear tactics to deal with this? On a final note how would one call drones while keeping away? Just find a hole in your specials? For referral I am talking about Dante/Ironman/Sent in any order
    Drones...
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    I wish Strange was a really good anti-zoner.

    Sadly, he is not. :(
    Mystic Sword has enough speed and durability to win most grounded firefights, he has two different projectiles that track to fullscreen (one of which can crumple), projectile supers do not work on him at all, he has an extremely fast air-usable teleport, oh, and he can confirm happy birthday into two dead characters with 1 meter from any point on the playfield.

    If you've figured out how to zone without using an assist, then more power to you. Otherwise, trying to zone Strange is not advisable.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    Fuck this shit. The secret weapon to stop keep away is a well played out character with a teleport
    Fixed that for you. Although I am greatly interested in hearing how Deadpool "kills" Morrigan + Doom.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    How is "Zoning" (to clarify I'm referring to a DiosX style) with Drones compare to missles?
    Drones are better at stopping rush from the front (or teleports behind). Missiles are better at stopping rush from above. Either assist can have problems if your opponent has a beam assist (drones disappear and Doom won't get missiles out).
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • DreizeDreize How quaint... Joined: Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭
    Mystic Sword has enough speed and durability to win most grounded firefights, he has two different projectiles that track to fullscreen (one of which can crumple), projectile supers do not work on him at all, he has an extremely fast air-usable teleport, oh, and he can confirm happy birthday into two dead characters with 1 meter from any point on the playfield.

    If you've figured out how to zone without using an assist, then more power to you. Otherwise, trying to zone Strange is not advisable.

    Mystic sword is probably Strange's best tool for anti-zoning, however it is nothing to brag about. Sure it has tonnes of durability, but it comes out relatively slow compared to most projectiles, it's not very spammable either. Anyone who knows how to jump will easily avoid Mystic Sword.

    Secondly, he has more then 2 different projectiles that track fullscreen. He has DoD L, DoD M, EoA+IP, quite a few variations of GoH L and M. The problem with these is that they take way too long to come out/setup, they're not that great for tracking and can easily be avoided as well. No zoning team is just going to sit around while Strange summons all his shit on screen.

    Plus if Strange gets hit the DoD's disappear, same with EoA. The EoA also has garbage durability as well (things like Spencer's grapple, Wesker's gunshot, etc go through it).

    Projectile supers do work on Strange if he is not on the ground, or if he doesn't have meter. Anyways, I don't know too many zoning based teams who would randomly use fullscreen supers, let alone on a Strange player. Hawkeye's gimlet is too hard to counter due to it's speed, Morrigan will never be seen doing fullscreen supers, Arthur will usually just spam projectiles fullscreen and occasionally use gold armor to power-up, Joe will send out voomerangs, etc.

    Since Strange's counter beam doesn't come out as fast as say Akuma's beam, or Dorm's beam it can usually be blocked unless the projectile's being thrown out have a lot of recovery.

    Sure his teleport is fast, but against zoners who jump a lot (Hawkeye, Morrigan, etc) it's very hard to hitconfirm into a combo for him; he certainly isn't Magneto or Nova who can hitconfirm off of just about anything. Plus, the only teleport that tracks in the air is his teleport H.

    Sure, he can happy birthday from anywhere; the problem is the strict spacing of the two characters. You have two options in this situation.

    1. Use SoV, x-factor, then use SoV again. Keep in mind that this is a tad risky since your essentially blowing x-factor and 2 bars for a non-guaranteed kill. Also, this assumes that you have x-factor and 2 bars to spare.

    2. Use SoV, x-factor, teleport H, IP, convert into a combo. This is also quite risky, unless the two characters are almost right next to each other one of them will most likely drop out due to spacing issues. Also, this assumes that you have 1 bar and x-factor to spare.

    Also, keep in mind that Strange has low health (850k) so chipping him out can be done quite easily and he will most likely die from a single combo. Strange is not a great anti-zoner. I wish he was, but sadly he isn't.

    Luckily for me I have Doom+Hidden missiles on my Strange team, so it makes things a tad easier. It can still be very frustrating to deal with proper zoning though, if EoA had better durability it would make things a lot easier for my team.
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    I wish you could pick the same character multiple times here. I would pay money to watch Doom/Doom/Doom spam missiles with random beams or photon shots thrown in.

    On a serious note, why don't more people use Doom keep-away? Missiles, Photon, and Beam are all very good zoning tools. Give him an assist to cover him (Sent, Strange) and you have a team that fills the screen with hitboxes.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,329
    Fixed that for you. Although I am greatly interested in hearing how Deadpool "kills" Morrigan + Doom.
    Don't really know why you had to change the post to "teleport." Like I said, properly played Deadpool can shut it down. Morrigan doesn't even have a teleport to get out of bullets. Jumping out doesn't really matter since things will just be reset again when she gets on the ground. Doom isn't going to be getting any shine since Deadpool is already going to lock him down. Like I said, Deadpool shuts down Character/Missiles easy. Once Deadpool makes sure that Doom doesn't want to come out anymore, dealing with Morrigan gets way easier. People already said and a example like Bum quoted, "Okay, Morrigan is figured out but Morrigan/Doom isn't." Once you get rid of Doom, yes, Morrigan is still an annoying tramp, but its easier to deal with her afterwards. Teleporting from Deadpool is just a plus weapon to have.

    You don't need a teleport to beat Morrigan/Doom as Moon's proved it and beat ChrisG twice at Big Two #39 with his Nova/Task/Ammy. Sent Chris to losers and met him in losers finals and knocked him out. Truthfully, I've never seen anyone do that at Big Two yet but Moon's slowly grinded it out and took the W even if it was 3-2 for both matches.
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
    I play all fighting games.
    Youtube<<Combos/Tutorials | TwitchTv<<Stream
    Support our new clothing company, Meaty Mob! http://meatymob.com
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    Mystic sword is probably Strange's best tool for anti-zoning, however it is nothing to brag about. Sure it has tonnes of durability, but it comes out relatively slow compared to most projectiles, it's not very spammable either. Anyone who knows how to jump will easily avoid Mystic Sword.
    Mystic Sword is not a zoning tool; it is an anti-zoning tool. The fact that you can avoid Mystic Sword is irrelevant, since the purpose of the move is to interrupt your zoning attempts, not keep you from moving.
    Secondly, he has more then 2 different projectiles that track fullscreen. He has DoD L, DoD M, EoA+IP, quite a few variations of GoH L and M.
    I suppose you also consider Unibeam L and Unibeam H to be two "different" projectiles? Eye of Agamotto does not track fullscreen and Grace of Hoggoth is not a tracking projectile at all; Flames of the Faltine is. If you are going to continue this sort of pedantic, useless nitpicking, at least get your facts straight.
    The problem with these is that they take way too long to come out/setup, they're not that great for tracking and can easily be avoided as well.
    Most non-missiles zoning teams have major problems attacking an opponent who is at the far top portion of the playfield. Strange can set them up there rather easily. EoA is completely useless as anti-zoning and there is nothing more to say on that.
    Anyways, I don't know too many zoning based teams who would randomly use fullscreen supers, let alone on a Strange player.
    Characters like Trish, Taskmaster, Sentinel, Joe, Deadpool, etc. can normally throw out their projectile supers to win firefights (particularly when they have a chance to also hit an assist). This doesn't work against Strange.
    Sure his teleport is fast, but against zoners who jump a lot (Hawkeye, Morrigan, etc) it's very hard to hitconfirm into a combo for him;
    Um, teleport M and hit the opponent in the back as they are falling? Morrigan is a slightly different story (if she can side-correct her flight input fast enough) but any of the other jumping zoners are a non-issue.
    2. Use SoV, x-factor, teleport H, IP, convert into a combo. This is also quite risky, unless the two characters are almost right next to each other one of them will most likely drop out due to spacing issues.
    Then I guess it's a good thing for Strange that zoning assists come out almost right next to the point character, isn't it?

    This is what I meant when I said that unless you can zone without using an assist, keepaway does not work on Strange.
    Also, keep in mind that Strange has low health (850k) so chipping him out can be done quite easily and he will most likely die from a single combo.
    Arthur's health: 850k
    Hawkeye's health: 900k
    Deadpool's health: 900k

    Please do continue.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    Don't really know why you had to change the post to "teleport."
    Because Deadpool doesn't have any particularly scary tool against zoning outside of his teleport, and any character with a teleport is scary to zoners. His guns have pathetic durability and he struggles to compete in any kind of firefight.
    Like I said, properly played Deadpool can shut it down. Morrigan doesn't even have a teleport to get out of bullets. Jumping out doesn't really matter since things will just be reset again when she gets on the ground. Doom isn't going to be getting any shine since Deadpool is already going to lock him down. Like I said, Deadpool shuts down Character/Missiles easy. Once Deadpool makes sure that Doom doesn't want to come out anymore, dealing with Morrigan gets way easier.
    This is one of the most impressive examples of talking without actually saying anything that I've ever seen.

    Jumping out "doesn't matter" because "things will be reset" when Morrigan lands? What things? How does it "not matter" that Morrigan has two Soul Fists falling on your head when she lands?
    Deadpool is going to "lock Doom down"? How?
    How does Deadpool "shut down Character/missiles easy" when real zoners like Arthur and Hawkeye shred through Deadpool's bullets like butter?
    You don't need a teleport to beat Morrigan/Doom as Moon's proved it and beat ChrisG twice at Big Two #39 with his Nova/Task/Ammy.
    None of those characters are Deadpool. And you're right: Morrigan is the one zoner that teleporting isn't particularly effective against, which is why she's done far, far better in tournaments than any other zoner.

    So again: given that Deadpool's only real anti-zoning weapon is his teleport, and teleporting isn't even that good against Morrigan, please explain how Deadpool shuts her down "easily."
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • DreizeDreize How quaint... Joined: Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭
    Mystic Sword is not a zoning tool; it is an anti-zoning tool. The fact that you can avoid Mystic Sword is irrelevant, since the purpose of the move is to interrupt your zoning attempts, not keep you from moving.

    Even so, it comes out relativity slow and zoners who neutral jump or superjump a lot are going to completely avoid it and continue with their zoning, your going to be left in no better position then before, and at a frame dis-advantage if completely avoided.
    I suppose you also consider Unibeam L and Unibeam H to be two "different" projectiles? Eye of Agamotto does not track fullscreen and Grace of Hoggoth is not a tracking projectile at all; Flames of the Faltine is. If you are going to continue this sort of pedantic, useless nitpicking, at least get your facts straight.

    You clearly know little to nothing about this character. First off, unibeam L and H have the same hitbox, thus I consider them to be the same type of projectile. When using DoD L only 1 dagger comes out, when using DoD M, 3 come out. Thus they have different hitboxes, thus I consider them to be two different moves. Secondly, EoA+IP does track fullscreen; if you knew anything about Strange you'd know that. Also, sorry for giving you too much credit; I had assumed that you knew what I meant by "quite a few variations of GoH L and M". Obviously you have to FoF them, and yes they have fullscreen tracking properties.
    Most non-missiles zoning teams have major problems attacking an opponent who is at the far top portion of the playfield. Strange can set them up there rather easily. EoA is completely useless as anti-zoning and there is nothing more to say on that.

    So you expect me to superjump and place 3 graces, then fall down since I can only use 3 special moves in the air; then hope my opponent gives me enough time to FoF them? And on top of that, it's not even a guaranteed hit; plus some zoners can punish me during the placement of the graces.

    How ludicrous.
    Characters like Trish, Taskmaster, Sentinel, Joe, Deadpool, etc. can normally throw out their projectile supers to win firefights (particularly when they have a chance to also hit an assist). This doesn't work against Strange.

    Must I say it again? This assumes that Strange has meter to spare, and that he is grounded. Sure if you have the resources to spare you can counter their super depending on how much recovery the super entails.
    Um, teleport M and hit the opponent in the back as they are falling? Morrigan is a slightly different story (if she can side-correct her flight input fast enough) but any of the other jumping zoners are a non-issue.

    Sure I guess, hopefully they don't react in time. Strange's normals are pure ass. On a good Morrigan, this is out of the question; as she will flight cancel and block. I was mainly referring to characters who like to stay at superjump height while zoning (trish, morrigan, task, etc). Strange has trouble hitconfirming from superjump height.
    Then I guess it's a good thing for Strange that zoning assists come out almost right next to the point character, isn't it?

    This is what I meant when I said that unless you can zone without using an assist, keepaway does not work on Strange.

    This is the type of remark that would come from someone who does not play Strange on a regular basis. You better hope to hell that the person doesn't neutral jump forward, backwards, etc while calling the assist. Also, you better hope that the two characters have a similar hitbox as weird spacing issues often occur. If it fails, your down x-factor and 1 meter.

    Sounds risky to me.
    Arthur's health: 850k
    Hawkeye's health: 900k
    Deadpool's health: 900k

    That's great. You just named 3 low-ish health characters who are all better solo zoners then Strange, I applaud you. Not sure how this is relevant, chipping those 3 characters isn't exactly easy since they are all quite good zoners themselves.
    Please do continue.

    The quote in your signature says so much about you. I now understand your rather conceited internet attitude. How wonderful.

    Continue if you must.
  • BakuhakubasugasuBakuhakubasugasu Eating dreams since '96. Joined: Posts: 3,329
    ~snip

    His durability on his bullets isn’t the greatest yes, but what they can do to keep people locked down is very good. Deadpool, I agree, needs another projectile assist to get in with and aid his lockdown but that’s easy stuff. The angles on his bullets are good and the j.Happy Trigger M is a great projectile to keep them from jumping and controlling the air space.

    For the jumping “thing’s will be reset” when Morrigan lands part, I meant she’s going to touch the ground so she can repeat her nonsense of soul fist then jump up soul fist. That’s when you got to play patient and look for those small opening like that no matter how tight it might be. You can just jump assist and shoot M bullets to try to keep her on the ground. If she stays on the ground, play it right and try to keep her there will L or M trigger happy’s. How Deadpool locks it down? I just said it, assist and trigger happy and smart decisions.

    How does he shut down Character/Missiles? The best example would be Dormammu/Doom. That I can say is one of the strongest characters with missiles and easily the truth. Filipino is always wrecking havoc with the team and you can’t deny it too, he freaking won EVO. It doesn’t matter how sloppy it was and there was mistakes, he still won out of hundreds of players. Filipino himself said Deadpool is the weapon to shutting down Dorm/Missiles. His bullets come out too quick and stop Doom from shooting missiles. Because of this, he won’t even get a chance to shoot his missiles and just takes free damage. This is why I said that Doom would never get his shine and that’s the same as in Morrigan/Doom. If Doom doesn’t get the chance to come out anymore, fighting Morrigan head on isn’t as bad and her keep away drops significantly.

    Real zoners like Arthur and Hawkeye? I agree that both are great zoners and I would say that Hawkeye is also probably like Deadpool that can do great lockdown with proper judgment and patience. Arthur on the other hand is going to be way harder to shut down Morrigan but chances are WAY more slimmer for youngold dude. The difference here too is that Hawkeye is a good keep away character and he doesn’t do great at close game.

    I agree with that Morrigan has done way better in tournaments and it shows in the results as well. I already said that once you shut down the Doom part of Morrigan, dealing with Morrigan is “easier.” It might still be hard but it still is easier when Doom can’t support in the back when he already is out of commission. I explained so much why now since you didn’t get why I said Doom is shut down but yes. The quote I said from Bum’s is still the best example, Morrigan is figured out but Morrigan/Doom isn’t. Keep Doom in check and Morrigan isn’t as hard to fight. Taking care of the team with Deadpool is “easy” it just gets easier fighting Morrigan alone which makes it “easy.”
    PSN: Bakuhakubasugasu
    I play all fighting games.
    Youtube<<Combos/Tutorials | TwitchTv<<Stream
    Support our new clothing company, Meaty Mob! http://meatymob.com
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    Even so, it comes out relativity slow and zoners who neutral jump or superjump a lot are going to completely avoid it and continue with their zoning, your going to be left in no better position then before, and at a frame dis-advantage if completely avoided.
    The purpose of the move is to shut down opponent's zoning at normal jump height and below.
    It accomplishes this task quite well.
    First off, unibeam L and H have the same hitbox,
    Wrong. Unibeam L and H have:

    - different startup
    - different active frames
    - different advantage on hit/block
    - different damage
    - different meter gain
    - different durability

    So if all of those things combined don't qualify Unibeam L and H as "different," how can DoD L and M possibly be considered "different"?

    Furthermore, your argument is necessarily self-defeating. There is no possible way you can arrive at "4" tracking projectiles for Strange; if DoD L and M count as two, then FoF with 3Y/2Y/1Y/1R would have to count as 4, putting the total at a minimum of 6. Q.E.D.

    And last but not least, your nitpicking doesn't seem to have any purpose. I say that Strange has 2 fullscreen tracking projectiles to harass zoners and you, the person who claims that Strange is not a good anti-zoner, insist that... he actually has 4? What possible point could you be trying to prove, other than extremely flimsy nitpicking of semantics?
    Secondly, EoA+IP does track fullscreen; if you knew anything about Strange you'd know that.
    EoA has slightly less than one screen of traveling range. A fullscreen EoA will whiff against a fullscreen opponent that normal jumps, or does anything to change its path from a straight line.
    Also, sorry for giving you too much credit; I had assumed that you knew what I meant by "quite a few variations of GoH L and M".
    GoH is not a tracking projectile, period. The only projectile from GoH is the stationary explosions from a red GoH. FoF tracks; GoH does not.

    Again, I marvel at your pointless nitpicking. Even if I agreed with you on DoD and GoH, what is your endgame here? You have done nothing to actually advance your argument.
    So you expect me to superjump and place 3 graces,
    Because FoF only works with 3 GoH, right?
    And on top of that, it's not even a guaranteed hit; plus some zoners can punish me during the placement of the graces.
    How many zoners can punish an opponent at the far top portion of the playfield? Of those that can, how many can do so in a way that does not leave them wide open to punishment?

    At this point, I am extremely interested in hearing you explain why you believe that Dormammu is anti-zoning. The weak explanations you have used to dismiss Strange apply even more harshly to Dorm, unless it is your position that Dorm's 150k in extra health makes the difference.
    [re: countering projectile supers]
    Must I say it again? This assumes that Strange has meter to spare, and that he is grounded.
    Well, yes, it presumes that if your opponent has a meter to do their projectile super, you also have a meter to counter it. Since Strange has plenty of anti-zoning tools without meter, this is not a crazy requirement.
    [re: happy birthday on zoners who call assists]
    This is the type of remark that would come from someone who does not play Strange on a regular basis. You better hope to hell that the person doesn't neutral jump forward, backwards, etc while calling the assist. Also, you better hope that the two characters have a similar hitbox as weird spacing issues often occur. If it fails, your down x-factor and 1 meter.
    What you are describing is someone who is fishing with SoV instead of using it on reaction. When you use it on reaction to something that you see, this stuff doesn't apply. Nevertheless, since SoV is definitely not going to whiff the point character, if you're unsure as to whether or not you hit the assist, just don't use your XF! The worst case scenario is that you landed a free super.
    That's great. You just named 3 low-ish health characters who are all better solo zoners then Strange, I applaud you. Not sure how this is relevant, chipping those 3 characters isn't exactly easy since they are all quite good zoners themselves.
    Let's see if we can follow this logic:

    - I say Strange is good against zoners
    - you say his health is too low to be effective
    - I point out that the zoning characters he's trying to kill also have low health

    So let's see, if both Strange and his zoner opponent will die in one combo, but Strange can instantly teleport to them from anywhere on the playfield, who is more likely to land a combo first?

    And yes, you are correct in stating that I don't play as Strange: I play against him on a regular basis, and I use a hardcore zoning team (Task/Hawkeye/Arthur). Strange/Dorm are the two characters in the game that I usually don't even attempt to zone, because it's simply a waste of time. I do attempt to zone other teleporters as a means of baiting out a teleport, but those two can bust up zoning without even having to use their teleports.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • DreizeDreize How quaint... Joined: Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭
    The purpose of the move is to shut down opponent's zoning at normal jump height and below.
    It accomplishes this task quite well.

    Even if I agreed with that, what purpose does it serve aside from avoiding a bit of chip damage? Am I going to hitconfirm into a combo from a Mystic Sword M confirm without x-factor or meter? The fact of the matter is that I am not going to be able to stop all chip damage by merely using Mystic Sword, and I will be accomplishing almost no forward progression by doing so; unless of course I decide to teleport.
    Wrong. Unibeam L and H have:

    - different startup
    - different active frames
    - different advantage on hit/block
    - different damage
    - different meter gain
    - different durability

    So if all of those things combined don't qualify Unibeam L and H as "different," how can DoD L and M possibly be considered "different"?

    Furthermore, your argument is necessarily self-defeating. There is no possible way you can arrive at "4" tracking projectiles for Strange; if DoD L and M count as two, then FoF with 3Y/2Y/1Y/1R would have to count as 4, putting the total at a minimum of 6. Q.E.D.

    And last but not least, your nitpicking doesn't seem to have any purpose. I say that Strange has 2 fullscreen tracking projectiles to harass zoners and you, the person who claims that Strange is not a good anti-zoner, insist that... he actually has 4? What possible point could you be trying to prove, other than extremely flimsy nitpicking of semantics?

    Thanks for making a list of things I already am quite aware of. Here, let me put it simply for you, they have a different animation, in this case with added hitboxes. Unibeam L and H use the same animation, thus they have the same hitbox.

    If you saw a picture of a whiffed L and H unibeam, would you be able to tell the difference between the two? Now apply that theory to DoD L and M, you will clearly see the difference due to added daggers.

    Who said anything about 4? I said "quite a few variations".

    My nitpicking actually does have a purpose, I'm essentially trying to discredit your knowledge regarding specific areas of Strange; thus trying to sway others who may be reading this to take everything you say regarding Strange with a grain of salt.

    You may call it "nickpicking" or "irrelevant" or whichever term you wish to use. However, there is definitely a clear purpose to me doing it; hopefully others wont be fooled and think Strange is some type of godlike anti-zoner as you are so inclined to prove.
    EoA has slightly less than one screen of traveling range.

    Wrong.

    EoA+IP actually does travel full screen. It will even hit RR at fullscreen, granted it will only hit once on him.

    Once again, I am "nitpicking". Right?
    GoH is not a tracking projectile, period. The only projectile from GoH is the stationary explosions from a red GoH. FoF tracks; GoH does not.

    Again, I marvel at your pointless nitpicking. Even if I agreed with you on DoD and GoH, what is your endgame here? You have done nothing to actually advance your argument.

    Once again, you keep telling me things about Strange that I am already fully aware. It seems as though I must tell you everything I know about Strange, only then can I hope that you wont treat me like someone who never uses him.

    Yes, you are right; a raw GoH is not a tracking projectile. Forgive me for assuming once again. I figured that it was implied that the graces must be FoF'd for the fullscreen properties to occur when I stated in my previous post "obviously you have to FoF them".

    Once again, I am "nickpicking"; love how you keep re-stating that.

    My end game you ask? My point is that Strange flat out cannot compete with other zoning characters through methods of counter zoning, due to slow startup on DoD, EoA, GoH, etc. Especially since his DoD and EoA dissappear when he is hit, and have low durability.

    Then that leaves him to Mystic Sword, his 2 supers; and his teleports. First off I'd like to say that basing a match-up solely on supers+x-factor is completely ludicrous. If that were the case then I could essentially SoV any unsafe move from an advancing opponent then x-factor for the kill. Mystic Sword does not solve my problems, it will merely horde off a zoning onslaught for a short duration of time; and I guarantee you that I will receive some chip damage here and there. But how do I approach zoners? Teleporting of course! Why didn't I think of that?! Oh wait, I forgot. Strange doesn't have a proper/useful wavedash, he has a slow walk speed, unsafe normals, his cr.L doesn't even hit low; and he doesn't even have an airdash! Teleporting behind a Morrigan, Trish, Tasky, etc who is neutral jumping/superjumping all over the place isn't going to do me much good. Especially since Strange's only real forward progression comes from his teleports, and he has trouble hitconfirming off of jumping opponents; and his normals have sub-par range! I'll essentially just have to keep spamming teleports in the hope that I get a proper hitconfirm.

    Bottom line: Strange is not a great anti-zoning character. Sure he can horde off zoning for a bit with Mystic Sword, and his supers can punish zoning. But in the end, all those tools do is give players the illusion that he is some type of anti-zoning machine. Without forward progression from the anti-zoning there is little to no point to in it, and no I am not talking about supers from Mystic Sword confirms. I'm talking about counter-zoning, or hitconfirming into a combo somehow. He's just not good enough to properly counter-zone a proper zoning team. I wish he was, I truly do; but sadly he isn't.

    I love him to death though, and I'll main him for as long I play this game. He becomes so much fun when you do land a proper hitconfirm into a crazy looking combo. But alas, he is held back by his character limitations; and there is little to nothing I can do to change that.
    Because FoF only works with 3 GoH, right?

    My mistake, I was merely looking upon your original post where you stated "he has two different projectiles that track to fullscreen (one of which can crumple)" and assumed that you thought that having the ability to do a fullscreen crumple was such a great thing. Of course, you had originally failed to state how time consuming/inefficient it was to do so and properly get a hitconfirm. Can't tell you how many times people have avoided my 3Y graces by merely jumping.

    And yes, of course he has different combinations. Nevertheless, they still require you to buy a ludicrous amount of time for a non-guaranteed reward while being pressured by zoning/rushdown. They are best used for incoming mix-ups or wake-up options in my honest opinion.
    How many zoners can punish an opponent at the far top portion of the playfield? Of those that can, how many can do so in a way that does not leave them wide open to punishment?

    At this point, I am extremely interested in hearing you explain why you believe that Dormammu is anti-zoning. The weak explanations you have used to dismiss Strange apply even more harshly to Dorm, unless it is your position that Dorm's 150k in extra health makes the difference.

    Hawkeye, Tasky, Arthur, Magneto, etc currently come to mind. This does not include the entire list of non-zoners/semi-decent zoners who can also punish Strange at that height. If you honestly think taking the risk is worth it for a non-guaranteed reward, go ahead and place those graces; good luck FoFing them after as well.

    I actually used to be a Dorm main before Strange, he was my favorite character and I was able to rack up a lot of wins with him; though he became extremely boring to use after a while and I decided to drop him.

    Anyways, a lot of Dorm's advantages stem off the fact that he is just overall a better character. He of course has the second fastest beam super in the entire game (just short of Akuma's) with a ridiculous hitbox; and it's not easy to puninish compared to SoV which has a ton of frame disadvantage on block. Of course he also has stalking flares as well, when paired with purification and sometimes even an assist he not only gains the ability to anti-zone; but he also gains the ability to counter-zone with ludicrous amounts of chip damage. What a concept! Of course, even using raw purifications can prove to be extremely beneficial if used properly, they can even catch assists for an infinite and while doing so Dorm gains a good amount of meter to which he can put to use for more flares/chaotic flame. Of course, even dark hole's can be used for zoning to some extent. Not to mention that Dorm doesn't crack as easily under heavy pressure if the opponent decides to rushdown, he can even create his own self-mixups using dark matter then teleporting. If of course he does purification at a bad time and it puts him at a frame disadvantage, he can cancel into any one of his two amazing supers. I wouldn't make this mistake too often though, as this of course does cost meter. He also has easier hitconfirms, better normals, good tri-jumps, etc then Strange. Plus, an added health bonus is also not something to ignore. Let's not forget his spells either, I would primarily charge while waiting for incoming characters, while keeping your opponent pressured with a flare; or an assist. Infact, he can even charge during specific combos. Three charges together are mainly what you are going to want to primarily use. 2 blue, 1 red or 2 red, 1 blue are favorites as they come out in 1 frame, do good chip damage; and build good meter.

    That is really all that currently comes to mind regarding my thoughts on Dorm's anti-zoning/counter-zoning ability Vs. Strange's.
    Well, yes, it presumes that if your opponent has a meter to do their projectile super, you also have a meter to counter it. Since Strange has plenty of anti-zoning tools without meter, this is not a crazy requirement.

    Plenty of anti-zoning tools without meter? I think your referring to Mystic Sword, that's pretty much it aside from his teleports. Even so, not much forward progression is going to be made from Mystic Sword spam.
    What you are describing is someone who is fishing with SoV instead of using it on reaction. When you use it on reaction to something that you see, this stuff doesn't apply. Nevertheless, since SoV is definitely not going to whiff the point character, if you're unsure as to whether or not you hit the assist, just don't use your XF! The worst case scenario is that you landed a free super.

    You can neutral jump forward, backwards, etc while calling an assist. Thus It's not easy to get a happy birthday whenever I choose. Not to mention the awkward spacing issues/hitbox issues that often occur. If of course my opponent is clueless and chooses to stand still while calling an assist, then yes I can punish them via happy birthday and hope to hell that spacing issues don't occur. Though, I'd assume that after doing this once my opponent would clue in and neutral jump while calling assists to avoid this from happening again.

    Yeah, I guess. But raw supers are something that can be said about any character that has a decent fullscreen super, which is a good portion of the cast.


    Well, this is getting somewhat interesting. I'll have to cut it off at this point for tonight though, as I'm extremely tired. Hopefully I didn't forget to specify/include anything as I'm sure you'll point it out.

    I am expecting another reply from you whenever you get the chance. Keep rockin' that quote in your signature, you can do this dude; prove me wrong!

    Let's continue. :)
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    Words. SO MANY WORDS. MY EYES!
    Damn. Shit's getting serious in here.
    tCp90.gif
    Strange is an anti-zoner, in my opinion. He has the tools to move wherever he wants, but he needs enough breathing room to get going. While zoning stops stupid rushdown, it doesn't generally respond well to calculated rushdown. Keep-away, in contrast, doesn't allow you to move in the first place, so both forms of rushdown lose effectiveness. That's why Strange can deal with zoners (Dante, GR, PW, Nemesis) very well but has trouble with bona fide keep-away. (Arthur, Hawkeye, Morrigan)

    EDIT: To future generations, Spider-Dan's signature is "I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It"
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    Even if I agreed with that, what purpose does it serve aside from avoiding a bit of chip damage?
    Stopping your opponent from zoning, which is the point.
    Unibeam L and H use the same animation, thus they have the same hitbox.
    No, they do not. Two moves with different duration (in a 3D game) do not have "the same animation." Try again.
    If you saw a picture of a whiffed L and H unibeam, would you be able to tell the difference between the two?
    Oh, are we ignoring things like frame data and damage and durability in favor of static screenshots now? Hey, if you close your eyes and just listen to Strange say "Daggers of Denak", then DoD L and M actually have exactly the same properties! This is a fun game.
    EoA has slightly less than one screen of traveling range.
    Wrong.

    EoA+IP actually does travel full screen. It will even hit RR at fullscreen, granted it will only hit once on him.
    Given that you seem to have conveniently snipped the very next sentence that clearly explained that EoA will fail to reach a normal jumping opponent at fullscreen, I have to question the intellectual honesty of this reply.
    Yes, you are right; a raw GoH is not a tracking projectile. Forgive me for assuming once again. I figured that it was implied that the graces must be FoF'd for the fullscreen properties to occur when I stated in my previous post "obviously you have to FoF them".
    Once again: yellow GoH is not a "projectile" at all. The only part of GoH that is a projectile is the explosion off of reds. Or do you somehow believe that if you set three reds around the playfield and fire FoF, the green fireball with exactly the same damage and durability as FoF is only a FoF until it hits the first glyph?
    Once again, I am "nickpicking" [sic]; love how you keep re-stating that.
    Here's the thing about your nitpicking: you aren't even factually correct. It's one thing if you were actually making corrections based on falsifiable facts, but the majority of your argument is completely content-free subjective garbage like "DoD L and M are two different projectiles but Unibeam L and H are not" and "GoH is a tracking projectile." Both of these statements are pure opinion (I would say a poorly conceived opinion, but opinion nonetheless).

    So for you to offer up meaningless opinion on how we should classify Strange's projectiles when talking about them (while ignoring the actual properties that are relevant to the discussion) with the idea that this proves that you know more about Strange than I do is laughable. I mean, unless you thought that you were actually surprising me by mentioning that DoD can be done with either L or M, or that [the projectile that is powered up by yellow GoHs] has multiple levels, the sole purpose of that response was to nitpick subjective terminology. This is the type of response that a person with a shallow understanding of the game makes to appear smart.
    My point is that Strange flat out cannot compete with other zoning characters through methods of counter zoning, due to slow startup on DoD, EoA, GoH, etc. Especially since his DoD and EoA dissappear when he is hit, and have low durability.

    Then that leaves him to Mystic Sword, his 2 supers; and his teleports. [...] Mystic Sword does not solve my problems, it will merely horde off a zoning onslaught for a short duration of time; and I guarantee you that I will receive some chip damage here and there.
    EoA is useless in a firefight. DoD can be used at positions on the screen where the startup does not matter. Mystic Sword accomplishes its role, which is to force grounded/low altitude zoners to stop zoning (without relying on teleport and getting into the teleport baiting game).
    But how do I approach zoners? Teleporting of course! Why didn't I think of that?! Oh wait, I forgot. Strange doesn't have a proper/useful wavedash, he has a slow walk speed, unsafe normals, his cr.L doesn't even hit low; and he doesn't even have an airdash!
    Why do any of these things matter if you've teleported behind a vulnerable opponent? It's not like he's Strider where his gameplan starts with a teleport. He has plenty of tools to stop zoners before the teleport gets involved.
    Teleporting behind a Morrigan, Trish, Tasky, etc who is neutral jumping/superjumping all over the place isn't going to do me much good.
    If only there were a version of Mystic Sword that aimed up, so you could fight against these characters that are trying to zone you from the air. Then this would be a completely different discussion.
    Bottom line: Strange is not a great anti-zoning character. Sure he can horde off zoning for a bit with Mystic Sword, and his supers can punish zoning. But in the end, all those tools do is give players the illusion that he is some type of anti-zoning machine. Without forward progression from the anti-zoning there is little to no point to in it, and no I am not talking about supers from Mystic Sword confirms. I'm talking about counter-zoning, or hitconfirming into a combo somehow. He's just not good enough to properly counter-zone a proper zoning team.
    This is your fundamental problem. I never said Strange can zone; I said he's a good ANTI-ZONER. Strange's zoning can't actually keep anyone out... but what it can do is stop people from trying to zone him, which forces them to try to rush him instead.

    If Strange's zoning were good at keeping people out, then I wouldn't classify him as anti-zoning, I would classify him the same way I classify Hawkeye or Chris or Arthur: a zoner.
    Hawkeye, Tasky, Arthur, Magneto, etc currently come to mind. This does not include the entire list of non-zoners/semi-decent zoners who can also punish Strange at that height.
    The only one of those characters who is "good" at punishing far top keepaway (without burning meter) is Hawkeye, and his solution (triple piercing) is highly vulnerable to teleport. The other characters you listed have to resort to superjumping any time they see Strange SJ, which is not the most reliable strategy when Strange can teleport to the ground at any time.
    Anyways, a lot of Dorm's advantages stem off the fact that he is just overall a better character. He of course has the second fastest beam super in the entire game (just short of Akuma's) with a ridiculous hitbox; and it's not easy to puninish compared to SoV which has a ton of frame disadvantage on block.
    SoV can be done in the air, hits anywhere on the playfield, and still executes if he gets hit after the cinematic. It is indescribably superior to Chaotic Flame as an anti-zoning tool, full stop.

    Dorm can legitimately zone with meter (though not against Strange, natch) and Purification is a solid tool to stop zoners. That being said, Strange's teleport is vastly superior and he has much better options for harassing the opponent at SJ height. Airborne Dorm has nothing approaching the threat level (to a zoner) of SoV, so when he jumps, the opponent has much more freedom to attempt to zone. And Dorm's teleport is too slow to punish anything of value. (Dark Hole is absolute garbage for zoning and anti-zoning, so I will ignore that part of your post.)
    You can neutral jump forward, backwards, etc while calling an assist. Thus It's not easy to get a happy birthday whenever I choose. Not to mention the awkward spacing issues/hitbox issues that often occur.
    Zoners generally want to be at fullscreen. If you are at fullscreen and you call an assist, your options are restricted to a) block or b) jump/dash forward. Now, I'm not sure how much you actually zone, but being forced to constantly move forward every time you call an assist does not really help with the general zoning gameplan.

    And ultimately, it's the threat of SoV that makes more of an impact than actually doing it. Once your opponent knows it's on the table, it restricts their options and makes things like, say, Mystic Sword spamming that much more viable. Could a zoning Task do normal jump air M arrows to discourage Mystic Sword spamming? Sure. But a) he can't call his own assist to help firefight at fullscreen and b) he can't do anything to punish an assist that Strange calls, because Legion Arrow is off the table due to 7 Rings. His zoning is effectively shut down.
    But raw supers are something that can be said about any character that has a decent fullscreen super, which is a good portion of the cast.
    How many "decent fullscreen supers" hit anywhere on the playfield from anywhere on the playfield? You act as if it's not a big deal.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    I might regret this...
    Spoiler:

    I feel like an enabler now...:(
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • tabtab the impossible dream Joined: Posts: 1,687 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i feel like doctor strange's daggers really should let you perform air actions after them and that he should be able to do multiples of them in flight mode

    it just seems real silly that out of all the characters for some reason he's like the one characters who is (due to the speed of the move) encouraged to do superjump projectiles while simultaneously also having almost no payoff for doing it due to the recovery and damage it has

    really overall i just feel like the dude should be megafast and do crazy damage on his projectiles because he is a sweet wizard

    edit: seriously listen to his theme and you're like 'dang this dude has got to be a sick ass wizard' and then you look at his picture and you're like 'DANG this dude definitely has to be a sick ass wizard' and then hes all slow and wrinkly and weak in game and you're like "i guess he's just some old guy wearing stockings"
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    i feel like doctor strange's daggers really should let you perform air actions after them and that he should be able to do multiples of them in flight mode

    it just seems real silly that out of all the characters for some reason he's like the one characters who is (due to the speed of the move) encouraged to do superjump projectiles while simultaneously also having almost no payoff for doing it due to the recovery and damage it has

    really overall i just feel like the dude should be megafast and do crazy damage on his projectiles because he is a sweet wizard

    edit: seriously listen to his theme and you're like 'dang this dude has got to be a sick ass wizard' and then you look at his picture and you're like 'DANG this dude definitely has to be a sick ass wizard' and then hes all slow and wrinkly and weak in game and you're like "i guess he's just some old guy wearing stockings"

    He also needs a 16-way airdash.

    In all seriousness, I feel they did very well with Strange balance-wise. He has faults, but he can use assists fo cover them. He does enough damage in a combo to pose a threat, but he has to actually work a little bit for that hit.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • HusteenHusteen We have a problem. Joined: Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭
    i feel like doctor strange's daggers really should let you perform air actions after them and that he should be able to do multiples of them in flight mode
    i feel like dr. strange was intended to do this, but he got stupid phoenix-type nerfs instead. meanwhile, i watch characters like doom, trish, etc. super jump and just fire off any and all projectiles they feel like while being able to block/act afterwards.
    i wish dr. strange was a better anti-zoner than he is. 7 rings is fun, but you have to use it against an anchor characters so there's no DHC business and xFactor is probably already spent.
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    Problem is, some characters (namely Morrigan) can continue to zone from super-jump height.
    Morrigan in clone mode is one of the few characters that can zone Strange (or pretty much anyone else). But when she's not burning meter, she's a mediocre zoner, somewhere around Trish's level. He can slice through her zoning with Mystic Sword quite easily, or take the time to set up glyphs.
    I think he means that the beam looks identical between both versions. If you fight an Iron Man, could you tell the difference between Unibeam L or M?
    It's meaningless terminology semantics. What impact does it make on the strategy if we call DoD or Unibeam two different versions of the same move vs. calling them two different moves? It's the kind of subjective critique that one makes when one has nothing of substance to say, and as I already said, it's a particularly poor critique because the logic is questionable. Are Rocket Punch L, M, and H three "different moves"? Is horizontal Typhoon three "different moves" because there are different numbers of mini-whirlwinds? Is Hawkeye's standing H several dozen "different moves" based on the precise timing and angle that you release it? The whole line of attack is as ridiculous as it is unfounded.
    Hate to be a grammar Nazi, but the bolded is actually a testable "fact", not an opinion.
    Wrong. Whether or not the projectile that tracks you should be called "GoH" or "FoF" is opinion, and if you have a way to conclusively prove what it should be called (which is the entire substance of Dreize's so-called correction), then I look forward to seeing it.

    Although I must say that I am confused as to why you would even mention this to me, since my point was that the projectile is FoF.
    After checking the guide, I will say that Mystic Sword is useful against people with okay projectile games like Ryu, Thor, and Frank.
    I am not particularly interested in theory fighter discussions about what projectile should win based on the data in the guide. If you were reading the guide, you'd think that Disruptor/Plasma Beam/Unibeam could easily beat Hawkeye's Speed Shot. In practice, Speed Shot completely annihilates their grounded beam game, and it's not even a contest.
    Do you mean straight up? Mystic Sword H goes at a 45 degree angle upward.
    Are you seriously asking me if I believe that Mystic Sword H travels at a 90 degree angle?

    This is intended to be a high-level discussion. I presume that all of us understand the basic facts at hand.
    With meter, Strange is very good at stopping zoning. Without meter, he has to rely on having "better" mobility than the people who are keeping him out, like teleporting and flying.
    Ryu is good at stopping zoning "with meter," but the difference is that Ryu's anti-zone threat revolves solely around that meter. Strange's threat is that he can kill 2/3rd of your team with his meter (from anywhere on the playfield), but can still shut down your zoning without it.
    Arthur can j.S downward if he needs to fall quickly. Swagnus is perfectly okay with Strange super jumping, it makes getting in much easier for him, which is exactly where he wants to be against Strange.
    Arthur gets hammered by teleporters of any kind, so this line of argument is a dead end. And if the argument is that Magneto wants to rush Strange... I agree? The point is that Magneto can't zone him.
    Though Chris, Task, and Hsien-Ko are in trouble there. Thankfully, Vajra exists.
    If your solution to a tactic you can't do anything about is to pick Strider assist and spam that, you're in for some rough times.
    With meter, Strange becomes the anti-zoner, no question. But if he's sitting on meter here, we can assume the opponent has meter, which can present problems for him. Shadow Servant, Gimlet, and most level 3's can beat out Strange with meter if he doesn't use it responsibly.
    Morrigan with meter is a problem for practically everyone, which is why she's done the best of any zoner, by far.
    Hawkeye can go fishing with random Gimlets, but (unlike many other characters) there is no spot on the playfield where Strange can't retaliate. Best case is SoV; worst case is teleport into combo.
    What zoner's LV3 is a threat at fullscreen? Arthur? 7 Rings cancels it completely, and Strange can DHC into his next character (using 2 meters compared to Arthur's 3) and force Arthur to XFC or die.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    7 rings is fun, but you have to use it against an anchor characters so there's no DHC business and xFactor is probably already spent.
    I don't see why that's an issue. Again, presuming meter parity, opponent does projectile super, you do 7 Rings, opponent DHCs to non-projectile super, you DHC to a safe super. At fullscreen, this shouldn't be a problem.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • DreizeDreize How quaint... Joined: Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭
    Stopping your opponent from zoning, which is the point.

    Stopping your opponent from zoning while still getting chipped? Where is the forward progression? Seems like you can't even grasp this same simple concept that I keep bringing up.
    No, they do not. Two moves with different duration (in a 3D game) do not have "the same animation." Try again.

    Are we really arguing about this? Then again, you seem like the type of person who will argue about anything in order to justify your main point.

    Let's just say it's opinionated then. This argument already has too many sub-categories, might as well drop a few un-related ones.
    Given that you seem to have conveniently snipped the very next sentence that clearly explained that EoA will fail to reach a normal jumping opponent at fullscreen, I have to question the intellectual honesty of this reply.

    You really don't have the ability to admit when you are wrong, do you? I stated that EoA can track fullscreen, I never said anything about it following you fullscreen+neutral jumping. It follows fullscreen, that's all I stated. You were wrong, I was right.

    Regardless, it doesn't relate much to Strange's anti-zoning; as we've both stated before. Also, it's quite hypocritical for you to say that I "conveniently snipped out the very next sentence" while you only cover the points that you deem fit and snip out a good portion of my posts.
    Once again: yellow GoH is not a "projectile" at all. The only part of GoH that is a projectile is the explosion off of reds. Or do you somehow believe that if you set three reds around the playfield and fire FoF, the green fireball with exactly t he same damage and durability as FoF is only a FoF until it hits the first glyph?

    Once again, keep telling me things I am already fully aware of. It seems like I must specify little thing for you to understand what I am referring to.

    Yes, GoH is not a projectile. FoF is. Once the FoF hits the GoH, it powers it up (depending on what GoH it is) and it gains tracking properties.

    Does stating the obvious make you feel like some type of genius? It`s sad that you cannot seem to comprehend things that are implied.
    Here's the thing about your nitpicking: you aren't even factually correct. It's one thing if you were actually making corrections based on falsifiable facts, but the majority of your argument is completely content-free subjective garbage like "DoD L and M are two different projectiles but Unibeam L and H are not" and "GoH is a tracking projectile." Both of these statements are pure opinion (I would say a poorly conceived opinion, but opinion nonetheless).

    So for you to offer up meaningless opinion on how we should classify Strange's projectiles when talking about them (while ignoring the actual properties that are relevant to the discussion) with the idea that this proves that you know more about Strange than I do is laughable. I mean, unless you thought that you were actually surprising me by mentioning that DoD can be done with either L or M, or that [the projectile that is powered up by yellow GoHs] has multiple levels, the sole purposeof that response was to nitpick subjective terminology. This is the type of response that a person with a shallow understanding of the game makes to appear smart.

    You couldn't be more incorrect. Your strategy seems to be wording things in such a condescending way with little to no proper explanation. You have yet to tell me 1 single thing that I did not already know about Strange. You seem to think that Mystic Sword is the all-powerful divine special move yet you repeatedly fail to realize that it's just not good enough to stop heavy zoning, especially with assists backing the zoner up. Plus, it pushes the opponent back on block aiding them with spacing themselves from you. You seem to also think that Strange's supers solve all his problems, how laughable. Want to know what Strange players primarily use Mystic Sword M for? Midscreen blockstrings. It's not spammable enough to stop heavy zoning and help you advance, plain and simple. Get it through your thick head.

    To be honest with you, the only Strange argument you've actually seemed to have success in is the whole "DoD L and M vs Unibeam L and H" debate. Which in itself is totally irrelevant to the main point being Strange's anti-zoning ability. Other then that, you've only been catching me in situations where I haven't specified myself enough for you to understand.
    EoA is useless in a firefight. DoD can be used at positions on the screen where the startup does not matter. Mystic Sword accomplishes its role, which is to force grounded/low altitude zoners to stop zoning (without relying on teleport and getting into the teleport baiting game).

    EoA is useless in firefights, we've established that; let's move on. DoD M would be way more useful if Strange could actually use it, then teleport at superjump height. It's too bad that it disappears when he is hit, has slow start-up, and can easily miss if the zoner is jumping around quite a bit. Once again, Mystic Sword cannot keep up with fast projectiles backed up with assists. The best thing that Strange can do against zoners and has worked quite well for me is calling hidden missiles, teleporting behind the opponent, and while doing so do a basic ground series converted into a blockstring if blocked, while the missiles are falling down call out a horizontal projectile assist while teleporting behind the opponent. It's a simple process of keeping an opponent locked down while almost simultaneously performing a teleport mix-up. Seems to work well on zoners from my experience, however it is very team specific and I was merely giving a random example.
    Why do any of these things matter if you've teleported behind a vulnerable opponent? It's not like he's Strider where his gameplan starts with a teleport. He has plenty of tools to stop zoners before the teleport gets involved.

    What if they recover fast enough and jump away/block/etc? Morrigan for example, is extremely hard to punish from my experience. My point is that his close range abilities aren't that great compared to a great anti-zoner like Dormammu. It all comes back to how good the actual character is in the end.
    If only there were a version of Mystic Sword that aimed up, so you could fight against these characters that are trying to zone you from the air. Then this would be a completely different discussion.

    Mystic Sword H will not solve Strange's problems, he will still receive chip once in a while, it's unsafe if whiffed, and it just doesn't help him progress forward; once again. Even If I do stop my opponents projectiles once in a while, what good does it really do in the end? If the opponent isn't getting punished and is getting in chip on me once in a while, why should he/she decide to rushdown?
    This is your fundamental problem. I never said Strange can zone; I said he's a good ANTI-ZONER. Strange's zoning can't actually keep anyone out... but what it can do is stop people from trying to zone him, which forces them to try to rush him instead.

    If Strange's zoning were good at keeping people out, then I wouldn't classify him as anti-zoning, I would classify him the same way I classify Hawkeye or Chris or Arthur: a zoner.

    Your fundamental problem is that you just don't seem to understand that stopping the opponents projectiles once in a while in no way forces them to rush you down. But dude, Hawkeye's quick shot H acts just like Mystic Sword; he must be an anti-zoner as well! Anyways, I don't really want to get into Hawkeye; you'll merely use him as another front to attempt to prove me wrong on.
    The only one of those characters who is "good" at punishing far top keepaway (without burning meter) is Hawkeye, and his solution (triple piercing) is highly vulnerable to teleport. The other characters you listed have to resort to superjumping any time they see Strange SJ, which is not the most reliable strategy when Strange can teleport to the ground at any time.

    I don't want to get into any other characters, as I feel like we're just going to get more off topic; my mistake for mentioning them. Let's continue discussing about Strange's anti-zoning abilities.
    SoV can be done in the air, hits anywhere on the playfield, and still executes if he gets hit after the cinematic. It is indescribably superior to Chaotic Flame as an anti-zoning tool, full stop.

    Dorm can legitimately zone with meter (though not against Strange, natch) and Purification is a solid tool to stop zoners. That being said, Strange's teleport is vastly superior and he has much better options for harassing the opponent at SJ height. Airborne Dorm has nothing approaching the threat level (to a zoner) of SoV, so when he jumps, the opponent has much more freedom to attempt to zone. And Dorm's teleport is too slow to punish anything of value. (Dark Hole is absolute garbage for zoning and anti-zoning, so I will ignore that part of your post.)

    Both supers have their uses. SoV is in no way indescribably superior due to it's slower start-up, frame dis-advantage, etc. Though, it's great for tracking, can be used in the air, etc. As said before, both supers have their uses. I will agree with you on the Strange Vs Dorm match-up though, as that is one of my most favorable match-ups while using Strange. Dorm's main zoning tool (purification) can easily be snuffed out by a simple teleport due to it's frame disadvantage if whiffed. Though, rushdown Dorm can pose a huge problem for Strange. Also, Strange's teleport is much better; but is not vastly superior. All Dorm's teleports track in the air, and he can teleport behind cornered opponents; though Strange's is much faster and I personally prefer it. Dark hole is obviously not as good as purification, but it has it's uses; especially while Dorm is mid-air.

    Let's get back on topic though, I hope my Dorm anti-zoning explanation was adequate and successfully stimulated your curiosity.
    Zoners generally want to be at fullscreen. If you are at fullscreen and you call an assist, your options are restricted to a) block or b) jump/dash forward. Now, I'm not sure how much you actually zone, but being forced to constantly move forward every time you call an assist does not really help with the general zoning gameplan.

    And ultimately, it's the threat of SoV that makes more of an impact than actually doing it. Once your opponent knows it's on the table, it restricts their options and makes things like, say, Mystic Sword spamming that much more viable. Could a zoning Task do normal jump air M arrows to discourage Mystic Sword spamming? Sure. But a) he can't call his own assist to help firefight at fullscreen and b) he can't do anything to punish an assist that Strange calls, because Legion Arrow is off the table due to 7 Rings. His zoning is effectively shut down.

    I zone quite a bit actually. I use Hawkeye on anchor, Strange on point with missiles backing him up, and I'll occasionally do a bit of zoning with Doom backed up by Hawkeye's assist.

    Regardless, if you're facing a Strange player who has meter to spare you should be neutral jumping forwards, backwards, etc while calling an assist. It's not a big deal, really.

    The threat of SoV, oh boy. They can still call assists as long as they are not standing right beside the assist. Air legion arrow is not off of the table since Strange's 7 rings does not have a large enough hitbox for it to be able to catch Tasky while he is high up in the air. His zoning is not shutdown. Also, Strange does not have an unlimited amount of meter; as I must state again.


    Once again, I am expecting another reply. Hopefully we can try to stay a bit more on topic going forward. In-case you have forgot, the topic is "Strange's anti-zoning abilities".

    Keep it coming my good ol' friend Spider-Dan. :D
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    Spoiler:

    Can you guys please use spoilers? Scrolling through these massive walls of text isn't fun for anybody.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • HusteenHusteen We have a problem. Joined: Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭
    I don't see why that's an issue. Again, presuming meter parity, opponent does projectile super, you do 7 Rings, opponent DHCs to non-projectile super, you DHC to a safe super. At fullscreen, this shouldn't be a problem.

    that's okay if your strange is dying and you need to DHC out of him safely, but "trololololol, i got both of us to waste two meters" isn't a valid strategy. depending on the DHCs your opponent has, you might have just given them a free powerup hyper. people don't really throw random projectile hypers at strange anymore without the plan of DHCing/xFactoring, so the situation you described is pretty much strange getting baited. i'm not saying it's comepletely wrong, but considering the alternative, why would you want to waste the meter?

    if someone, like ryu, is planning on using shinku hadoken>DHC, the best thing strange can do is wait activate 7 rings after the shink-freeze screen instead of using it on reaction. that way, even if he does DHC, the counter will activate and tag the DHC character. if a character like storm tries this, she's screwed either way because hail storm always comes out.

    i was just saying that i personally like using strange when a projectile heavy anchor is alone because there's no DHC bs, probably no xFactor; even if there is, you got them to use it prematurely, no more randomly throwing an xFactor lvl 3 projectile hyper in hopes of gaining some advantage, because people still have this very bad habit, and they won't stop in the middle of a fight because it's what they're used to doing, etc., etc.. so they can either get 7 ringed to death, or succumb to strange's mediocre zoning knowing they can't throw a projectile hyper to stop it.
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    Spoilered by request, though I don't understand when PageDown became a big hassle.
    Spoiler:
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    Spoilered by request.
    Spoiler:
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    Edited because my added statement made this a much longer post.
    Spoiler:
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • .Guy..Guy. STUPID SEXY ROCKET RACCOON! Joined: Posts: 1,901
    Man I don't even consider Strange a zoning ANYTHING, he's so bad at it

    ...I really don't see how Chaotic Flame is better than Spell of Vishanti as an anti-zoning tool though. SoV is one of the defining tools in the game for that.
    Lieutenant Colonel of the M.O.D.O.K. AVENGERS
    MadTitan brand toothpaste, for the god-like toothy smile. Get it now!
    (Not responsible for the loss of YOUR SOUL)
    UMvC3: Joe/RR/Assmaster, Joe/FrankBest/RR
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • charlie88charlie88 Devil Survivor is my $Hit....your friendly neighborhood NiGga Joined: Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SOV is better as an anti-zoning tool for 2 reasons. Its not limited to him being on the ground period. The 2nd being the player trying to zone strange will have to alter his strategy. Forcing a zoning style player is to alter strategy is the single biggest thing you can do to put yourself at an advantage.

    Why is there an argument about what strange does? Just put him second DHC into him xfactor happy birthday and be up 3 to 1 against the oppenent. Thats all you need to know to have an effective strange. Dieminion for the longest was doing this and getting wins.
    A wild typical Nigga appeared...... Greninja use Job Application, Committment and Read A Book...... Its super effective..... The Wild Nigga fleed..... Win Quote: I must use the tools the white man has given us to protect our world from coonery and bafoonery
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 958 ✭✭✭
    Spider-Dan, I think you are confusing zoning and keep-away.
    I'm not getting into another argument about terminology.

    Given that my very first post to this thread was a clear and unambiguous definition of what I consider zoning, when I say that Strange is anti-zoning, I mean that he is effective at stopping strategies that involve using long-ranged attacks to keep your opponent as far away as possible while you whittle them to death. Whatever term you personally want to use to describe that playstyle, Strange is good at stopping it.
    No, but I am confused that you are (denotatively) saying that he can't fire up when you say in a later post that he can fire up. I know Mystic Sword H travels upward, but I'm finding your phrasing very inconsistent.
    ...

    I see the source of your confusion. When Dreize was talking about characters like Morrigan and Trish that like to fire down at angles, and I said, "If only there were a version of Mystic Sword that aimed up, so you could fight against these characters that are trying to zone you from the air. Then this would be a completely different discussion," you believed that I was unaware of Mystic Sword H and that this sentence should be taken at face value, not unlike if I had said, "If only Strange had some way to counter projectile supers to protect his assists from being punished."

    When I say that this is intended to be a high-level discussion, these are the kinds of things I feel are implied. I thought that the existence of Mystic Sword H was something that was so basic and fundamental that anyone reading this thread would take it for granted that my statement was facetious. But I was apparently wrong, so let me rephrase that reply so as to relieve any confusion:

    Doctor Strange has a special attack called Mystic Sword, which fires a fairly-high durability projectile. If you execute this move with the heavy attack button, it will travel at an angle that is useful for attacking opponents who are trying to fire down on you from an angle. Given the speed and durability of this projectile relative to the projectiles that the aforementioned characters possess, this move can be a useful tool for discouraging such a tactic from said characters.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm not getting into another argument about terminology.

    When I say that this is intended to be a high-level discussion, these are the kinds of things I feel are implied. I thought that the existence of Mystic Sword H was something that was so basic and fundamental that anyone reading this thread would take it for granted that my statement was facetious. But I was apparently wrong, so let me rephrase that reply so as to relieve any confusion
    All right, I just wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or uninformed; I just played it safe and made sure we were on the same page.
    [quote="just5moreminutes;8594904"][b]"By the end of 2014, the Marvel community will be dead. People will still play it in casuals, since the game has that factor to it, but the release of newer, shiner, readily available anime fighters will rip the spotlight off Marvel entirely."[/b][/quote]
  • mdg164mdg164 Joined: Posts: 55
    Trying to play the game differently than everyone else, because you are so desperate to win, is the definition of lame. You play a game to have fun, and winning does not equal fun. I've been in lobbies where I destroy everyone over and over and it's quite boring, even if you are trying out new teams. Constantly running away and spamming projectiles is not fun for anyone involved, especially for your opponent who wants to play the game as it was meant to be played.

    BTW, it's called a fighting game, not a zoning game, not a keep away game. Maybe someday Capcom will release "Super Street Zoner" for you guys. Until then just stick to SFxT, and leave UMvC3 to the rest of us.
  • MrBGuyMrBGuy #yolo Joined: Posts: 475 ✭✭✭
    Trying to play the game differently than everyone else, because you are so desperate to win, is the definition of lame. You play a game to have fun, and winning does not equal fun. I've been in lobbies where I destroy everyone over and over and it's quite boring, even if you are trying out new teams. Constantly running away and spamming projectiles is not fun for anyone involved, especially for your opponent who wants to play the game as it was meant to be played.

    BTW, it's called a fighting game, not a zoning game, not a keep away game. Maybe someday Capcom will release "Super Street Zoner" for you guys. Until then just stick to SFxT, and leave UMvC3 to the rest of us.
    Oh I'm sorry, then can you show me your copy of the Official UMVC3 Rulebook that specifically says how this game is meant to be played?? Because so many scrubs mention it, but I can never find it anywhere. & if, as you said, "winning does not equal fun," then shouldn't you be fine with losing to well thought out keepaway? In other words, if you're not content with actually having to work and think to find a solution to beat keepaway, and instead would rather just complain about it, then maybe you should be the one to stick to SFXT, I heard they have gems you can buy that helps you block more
    UMvC3 Main: Dante / Morrigan / Strider
    The Original Squad: Wesker / Deadpool / Arthur
    Experiment team: Zero / Morrigan / Doom
    Injustice: Batman; Batgirl
    SFxT: Hei/King
Sign In or Register to comment.