There is no "lame", only zoning: The keep-away thread

just5moreminutes

As the title suggests, I wanted to make a thread devoted to keep-away. This would be a good place to talk about keep-away tactics, keep-away characters, keep-away counters, keep-away counter-counters, and post videos of really good keep-away as examples.

Keep away is very neglected in this game. That is understandable, since most of the cast is designed to rush down and invincible AA assists are no longer present (lariat nonwithstanding). But there are some characters (Arthur, Hawkeye, Chris most notably) designed to play at long range. In a game devoted to rushdown, keeping away can maul some characters/teams pretty hard. X-Factor is a double-edged Spiral Sword here, because it can increase your damage and allow you to cancel bad projectile calls, but it also allows people to negate your chip. But the system is still more accepting of keep-away here than in previous MvC games.

To start off, what do you think are the best keep-away shells? There are keep-away characters, but MorriDoom proves that assists are vital to keep-away, and zoners should not be observed in a vaccum.

Nitro Noodlez

Spamming is for scrubs.

Rokmode

just5moreminutes, post: 7335283, member: 45295 wrote:

To start off, what do you think are the best keep-away shells?

x/doom

JediLink

Hidden Missiles. That is all.

Grizzly_Moose

Magneto with his plasma beam, Doom with hidden missiles or rocks, Pheonix with her tk shot. GG.

LTP

Missiles/Drones is another zoning shell that's up there.

I think MODOK(blaster)/Strange(eye)/Doom(missiles) is one of the best zoning teams. You get the momentum right away at the beginning of the round since you can fly away and call assists to safely descend and setup the zoning. j.L also stops throw attempts at the beginning of the round and you can fly cancel it to block right away if they do something like Magnetic Shockwave. From there, you get to zone like crazy with assists, cubes, blasters, slime, barriers, and bombs. When they get close, they are pretty much guaranteed to be at a disadvantage, which is when you get to use Dok's pressure to open them up. Any touch from Dok allows you to build 2 bars with both assists, which you can spend for around 1,100k at the end of your BnB (which corner carries). You can also opt to jam them or go for an unblockable reset. Dok has some ridiculous incoming mixups/unblockable setups. If you are facing a zoning team, blaster is one of the fastest beams and barrier stops everything. Even Hawkeye will have some trouble with it. You even have the ability to ToD anyone anywhere on the screen from L blaster if you have 2 bars and XF (it's even nicer when they call in their assists). When Strange is in, missiles help him with setting up his traps and whatnot while MODOK's blaster gives him easy teleport mixups which ends up giving you 2 bars if you get the hit in.

fenrir04

Let's not forget Dormammu. Even without Missiles, he still zones like a boss with 2C1D/2D1C Liberations, Purifications, Dark Matter and the oh-so-deadly-and-annoying Stalking Flare. Missiles give him more liberty in doing what he wants: charging hands, more chip damage and/or more meter. His teleport also gives him the option of running away from his opponents.

lilzizzay814816

I run trish y spencer b and doom b

With trish, when done in the right variation your able to call doom missiles twice while in the air keeping your opponent locked down while laying traps and throwing voltages.

This team has some great synergy no matter who is on point

just5moreminutes

Missiles is good, but I think a lot of people are sleeping on Lariat. Can you imagine how much more annoying MorriDoom would be if she could call Lariat when people get close? It makes characters with poor close range options (Ghost Rider, Hawkeye) much better because you have a reset button if they do get through your obstacle course. It becomes even more effective if you can convert a full combo off of it. The only downside is that you have to put Haggar either second or last, neither of which are good positions for him. However, if you can accept looking at Haggar like MvC2 Captain Commando, you will have a very solid assist behind you.

Driftingsort

On a scale of Morrigan to Wolverine, what is the consensus on Storm's zoning capabilities?

otter

Driftingsort, post: 7336521, member: 10427 wrote:

On a scale of Morrigan to Wolverine, what is the consensus on Storm's zoning capabilities?

Somewhere between Spencer and Dante. She's what I call a pseudo zoner in the sense that she can delay the inevitable but throwing her crappy projectiles but she can only win by directly attacking her opponent, sort of like Trish. Lightning Sphere is pretty much Storm's only good projectile in my opinion except for Hail Storm obviously.

Demon Dash

Storm's Lightning Sphere has some long ass block stun.

Smoothjazz101

When considering Storm you have to remember she has her float move which allows her to vary her descent and prevent her landing from being as obvious as it should be, allowing her to land (relatively) safely and then get back to the very top of the screen and stay there.

Chungri

Modok/Doom is underrated imo. I get smacked by a zoning Modok almost all the time. The shield. ;- ;

Antstyle

Chungri, post: 7338212, member: 54562 wrote:

Modok/Doom is underrated imo. I get smacked by a zoning Modok almost all the time. The shield. ;- ;

That shield is underrated quite a bit. It still comes up if he's interrupted, and given Psionic Blaster L is practically a high-hitting EM Disruptor, it makes him pretty damn awesome against a lot of characters.

You can surprise so many people by using the shield, they hit you with LMH and the shield absorbs the S, and then grabbing them :P (Character specific, though.)

I rather like Magneto/Doom. You can use disruptor H for chip during missiles, and then alternate between standing Disruptor L and air versions for keeping people back and preventing jumpins. Should someone start getting close, you can either wait for the next missile assist to hit and try to go in, or use Shockwave to push them back (and DHC into Doom safely if they AG it.)

Depending on how easily your opponent gets in, and how well you read their attempts, you can build half-decent amounts of meter and do good chip damage as well. Can be risky versus certain characters, though (namely Vergil, Zero, and various DHC setups.)

TheTR3NDSETTA

Anyone who has played me knows my unorthodox team plays some of the best keepaway which is very hard to do given the size of Nem and Sent who can get hit with almost anything if 1 is not careful.

just5moreminutes

Does anyone think that teams like mine (Ammy/Arthur/Haggar) and TheTR3NDSETTA's (Nem/Sent/Dante) play off of matchup unfimiliarity just a wee bit?

Also, Nemesis's keep-away is VERY underexplored. If he scores a hard knockdown on an assist, he can kill them from fullscreen with air rockets. I found that out the hard way. He has better keep-away than Ghost Rider because he can mix in projectiles, armor, and command grabs into his game. Plus, any hit = reset hell.

EDIT: Another question, for those willing to awnser. What is best, Zoner/Assist/Anchor, Zoner/Assistx2, Zoner/Convinent Shell, Point/Zoner/Anchor, Point/Zoner/Assist, or Shell1/Zoner/Shell2? Sorry about all the options, just wanted to offer every idea I could think of.

Grizzly_Moose

Magneto with his plasma beam, Doom with hidden missiles or rocks, Pheonix with her tk shot. Best zoning team imo.

JukeboxHero

I've always thought Hawkeye, and certainly to a lesser extent Strange, are phenomenal as the total package in terms of Anchor + Assist + Keep away.

So much so, I will go out of my way 90% of the time to snap in either of them (if I can) to prevent the dreaded XF3 on either. I mean...the ability to annihilate any mistake or an assist and then XF on top is just icing on the cake....and Hawkeye with faster recovery is really damn scary.

I think the general consensus is that Missiles is that assist of choice for keep away generally. It's just wonderful. And, in my experience, Unibeam can actually be a pretty solid assist for keep away--granted you have that whole disadvantage of, uh, well, Iron Man.

Zane Hitsurugi

lame-ass niggas

X Fatal Grace X

Call it spamming, keep away, range fighting, scrub tactics.. Call it whatever you want, it's an art form and it causes more rage quitting and hate mail than any rush down team...specially on the Vita

True Grave

just5moreminutes, post: 7335283, member: 45295 wrote:

As the title suggests, I wanted to make a thread devoted to keep-away. This would be a good place to talk about keep-away tactics, keep-away characters, keep-away counters, keep-away counter-counters, and post videos of really good keep-away as examples.

Keep away? In Ultimate Marvel Vs Rushdown 3? Surely you jest.

This is a game where it seems the programmers had clear bias for aggressive play, and primarily only rewards huge damage melee combos. Playing keep away just isn't viable. Sure you can do great the whole match and slowly dwindle their health down, but because you're at long range you can't take advantage of any of the game's broken TOD mechanic or other big damage OTG combos. So they can make plenty of mistakes and be ok, but if they catch you once it may very well be all over.

Also i can't quite put my finger on why, but the fundamental mechanics of this game just don't suit keep away. Maybe the stages are small or something, but its doesn't take long to close the distance. One must play with extra precision and skill to keep them back at all times, or they could be in your face. Then you have teleport characters that completely negate zoning altogether.

Furthermore, again since the programmers had a hard on for melee, very few characters are truly keep away oriented. About the only ones are Arthur & Hawkeye, but Arthur's absolute trash outside of pathetic XFC gimmicks and Hawkeye cracks under pressure bigtime.

Chris is more of a melee character as his tools are nowhere near good enough to serve as true keep away. His stuff such as, the magnum, are really only good for winning projectile wars against other zoners. Too bad this is needless since this is a melee based game. Same goes for modok, his shield & beam might be good against other keep away types, but against an aggressive Zero or Vergil its useless when they can be in his face in a second.

Overall, this was not a game designed to support keep away in the least. Anyone going this route will always have to work much harder than others and constantly be in an uphill battle.

Antonio

Whats the best anti-spam/keepaway team?

LTP

Antonio, post: 7343580, member: 51917 wrote:

Whats the best anti-spam/keepaway team?

Something like Cap or Task/strong DHC (Strange, Dorm, Storm, etc)/Doom would probably work out decently. Cap destroys thoughtless keepaway.

Antonio

LTP, post: 7343604, member: 60504 wrote:

Something like Cap or Task/strong DHC (Strange, Dorm, Storm, etc)/Doom would probably work out decently. Cap destroys thoughtless keepaway.

I'm talking about a good keepaway team and can you explain to me how does captain america destroy bad keepaway other than blocking and hypering through fireballs?

LTP

Antonio, post: 7343710, member: 51917 wrote:

I'm talking about a good keepaway team and can you explain to me how does captain america destroy bad keepaway other than blocking and hypering through fireballs?

So you are asking for a good keepaway team, not a counter for keepaway? Charging star and shield skills with good assists to keep them safe blow up bad or careless keepaway. Cancelling into hypers just give them a second chance for getting through and let them keep up the pressure if they have a strong DHC like spiral swords. You really have to be aware to keep control of the match in those matchups.

JediLink

True Grave, post: 7342720, member: 5816 wrote:

Keep away? In Ultimate Marvel Vs Rushdown 3? Surely you jest.

*snip*

Well, Morrigan + Doom made has been proven to be pretty viable. This game doesn't favour pure keepaway as much as it favours turtling. That's why characters that can attack both from afar and up close like Zero and Morrigan are really good, while characters that are solely focused on keepaway like Arthur get murdered.

xX_Deus_Xx

Nitro Noodlez, post: 7335311, member: 12455 wrote:

Spamming is for scrubs.

actually, ONLY SCRUBS COMPLAIN ABOUT "spamming"

Cryoh

True Grave, post: 7342720, member: 5816 wrote:

Keep away? In Ultimate Marvel Vs Rushdown 3? Surely you jest.

This is a game where it seems the programmers had clear bias for aggressive play, and primarily only rewards huge damage melee combos. Playing keep away just isn't viable. Sure you can do great the whole match and slowly dwindle their health down, but because you're at long range you can't take advantage of any of the game's broken TOD mechanic or other big damage OTG combos. So they can make plenty of mistakes and be ok, but if they catch you once it may very well be all over.

Also i can't quite put my finger on why, but the fundamental mechanics of this game just don't suit keep away. Maybe the stages are small or something, but its doesn't take long to close the distance. One must play with extra precision and skill to keep them back at all times, or they could be in your face. Then you have teleport characters that completely negate zoning altogether.

Furthermore, again since the programmers had a hard on for melee, very few characters are truly keep away oriented. About the only ones are Arthur & Hawkeye, but Arthur's absolute trash outside of pathetic XFC gimmicks and Hawkeye cracks under pressure bigtime.

Chris is more of a melee character as his tools are nowhere near good enough to serve as true keep away. His stuff such as, the magnum, are really only good for winning projectile wars against other zoners. Too bad this is needless since this is a melee based game. Same goes for modok, his shield & beam might be good against other keep away types, but against an aggressive Zero or Vergil its useless when they can be in his face in a second.

Overall, this was not a game designed to support keep away in the least. Anyone going this route will always have to work much harder than others and constantly be in an uphill battle.

Did you forget about Morrigan/Hidden Missiles, Dormammu/ Hidden Missiles and Magneto/ Hidden Missiles? Keepaway is alive and well in UMvC3. Additionally, Chris can play a fantastic game of keepaway when you combine his guns with fire grenades.

Husteen

fenrir04, post: 7336208, member: 67315 wrote:

Let's not forget Dormammu. Even without Missiles, he still zones like a boss with 2C1D/2D1C Liberations, Purifications, Dark Matter and the oh-so-deadly-and-annoying Stalking Flare. Missiles give him more liberty in doing what he wants: charging hands, more chip damage and/or more meter. His teleport also gives him the option of running away from his opponents.

this. i was waiting for someone to mention dormamu. dormamu got on my nerves in vanilla because people just used pillars the whole match, but deep down, i secretly had a ccrush on him. i pretty much fell in love with his ability to just fill the screen with hitboxes after watching filipinochamp use him in tournaments. i think i'm the kind of person who would be deadly with dormamu if i would just focus on him like i've done with my other characters. i'm never mad when i see a good dormamu because i expect him to stay away and use his specials. he also has other non-zoning tools, which i guess is why he's high tier. i feel the same about dr. dewm, but he's not much of a zoner. doom and storm's specials seem to be there to pester the opponent more than anything.
anyways, dormamu's kewl, and he may very well be the zoning king of umvc3.

PKSkyler

Top tier-Morri/Doom Magnus/Doom, Joe/Doom, Dorm/Doom.
High- Same thing but with Drones.

ironboy89

Then you have teleport characters that completely negate zoning altogether.

Not againist high level players like Fchamp, ChrisG who could read the teleport and punish you for not making it safe.

For example. Doom's photon shot hits both foward and behind, if you try to teleport on Doom...he can predict the teleport and punish you for it. Or you could watch GCyoshi's matches where he has drones/grenades to prevent Vergil or Strider from teleporting behind him.

Yes Rushdown isn't weaker than Keepaway, but..........it's not impossible to win with keepaway. You just have to be smarter with the keepaway.

GcYoshi13

Keepaway with ToDs is the best.

Zoning should not be pure keep-away.

Zoning should be: "I'ma throw shit at your face, and you're going to come at me and once you actually get close, I'm going to beat the crap out of you"

That's the game plan that you should strive for.

Honzogonzo

theres no keepaway in marvel ever, name one char that can keepaway with mags pringles scoopps hagen dazz look im repeating what other people say

True Grave

Cryoh, post: 7343853, member: 10289 wrote:

Did you forget about Morrigan/Hidden Missiles, Dormammu/ Hidden Missiles and Magneto/ Hidden Missiles? Keepaway is alive and well in UMvC3. Additionally, Chris can play a fantastic game of keepaway when you combine his guns with fire grenades.

Chris is yet another melee character only with above average projectile ability. He can't sustain a pure keep away game, and his strengths are still up close in the end.

GcYoshi13, post: 7343928, member: 18533 wrote:

Zoning should be: "I'ma throw shit at your face, and you're going to come at me and once you actually get close, I'm going to beat the crap out of you"

That's the game plan that you should strive for.

Well i'm referring to pure keep away, which is what this thread should be about.

Because going by your definition of zoning, well then everybody with a projectile can do that. End of topic.

Honzogonzo, post: 7344451, member: 20675 wrote:

theres no keepaway in marvel ever, name one char that can keepaway with mags pringles scoopps hagen dazz look im repeating what other people say

I assume you're partly referring to MVC2? No sir. Keep away was 10x more viable in MVC2 than in UMVC3.

And using mags as an example is just going to extremes, as he is probably the fastest, most mobile character in the game by a mile. A good player can make him dash around so fast you can barely follow his movements, so of course it'll be hella difficult for an Blackheart or Cable to keep him out.

Mr. X

There's a difference between zoning and keep away and keep away in MvC3 is really weak.

just5moreminutes

True Grave, post: 7342720, member: 5816 wrote:

Furthermore, again since the programmers had a hard on for melee, very few characters are truly keep away oriented. About the only ones are Arthur & Hawkeye, but Arthur's absolute trash outside of pathetic XFC gimmicks and Hawkeye cracks under pressure bigtime.

Arthur: No. There is actually a zoner who can turn the lower portion of the stage (ground and normal jump height) into an obstacle course underneath all those gimmicks. For normal Arthur, you need to use a combination of arrows, daggers, lances, and axes to keep people out.

Hawkeye: This applies to Arthur too, but: What about getting a GTFO assist? Lariat makes teleports much harder for a lot of characters (lol poor Dante) and negates jump-ins to boot. Morrigan works because she is mobile enough to avoid getting mauled. Arthur, Hawkeye, and Chris are much more assist dependent than Morrigan and Dorm, so that is something to keep in mind when setting up an obstacle course for your opponent.

True Grave

just5moreminutes, post: 7344848, member: 45295 wrote:

Arthur: No. There is actually a zoner who can turn the lower portion of the stage (ground and normal jump height) into an obstacle course underneath all those gimmicks. For normal Arthur, you need to use a combination of arrows, daggers, lances, and axes to keep people out.

Hawkeye: This applies to Arthur too, but: What about getting a GTFO assist? Lariat makes teleports much harder for a lot of characters (lol poor Dante) and negates jump-ins to boot. Morrigan works because she is mobile enough to avoid getting mauled. Arthur, Hawkeye, and Chris are much more assist dependent than Morrigan and Dorm, so that is something to keep in mind when setting up an obstacle course for your opponent.

Its really baffling how these two made it into such a strongly centered melee game at all. In another title like MVC2 that suited keep away, they'd have been much better. In this game however, they're the black sheep on the roster.

At least Hawkeye can maneuver properly and stands a chance of getting out of tough situations. But those idiots at Capcom just had to neuter poor Arthur's mobility so they could pay homage to the games(Seriously Capcom?!). Its not just a lack of dash or slow running speed, he actually reacts slower and simply isn't quick enough to deal with cookie cutter set-ups. So you have a pure keep away character in a game that does not support keep away, and the character has terrible mobility on top of that. Such a terrible combination....

Haggar lariat to help? Yeah or you know.....you could just not bother and pick a better character. Furthermore, if one isn't necessarily good with Haggar either, then they're left with not one but two characters that can't hang in the fight.

just5moreminutes

True Grave, post: 7345110, member: 5816 wrote:

Its really baffling how these two made it into such a strongly centered melee game at all. In another title like MVC2 that suited keep away, they'd have been much better. In this game however, they're the black sheep on the roster.

At least Hawkeye can maneuver properly and stands a chance of getting out of tough situations. But those idiots at Capcom just had to neuter poor Arthur's mobility so they could pay homage to the games(Seriously Capcom?!). Its not just a lack of dash or slow running speed, he actually reacts slower and simply isn't quick enough to deal with cookie cutter set-ups. So you have a pure keep away character in a game that does not support keep away, and the character has terrible mobility on top of that. Such a terrible combination....

Haggar lariat to help? Yeah or you know.....you could just not bother and pick a better character. Furthermore, if one isn't necessarily good with Haggar either, then they're left with not one but two characters that can't hang in the fight.

I like black sheep. Makes it very easy to get black wool.:D

Arthur can sort of deal with setups. He has so much invincibility on Heavenly Slash and his hypers that you have to respect him a little bit. I agree with the mobility part though. What the hell did they give him in exchange? Invincibility and a counter?

Lariat is good with a lot of characters. It is probably the best defensive assist in the game. Why not give it to a character who really needs it? Lariat helped win EVO 2011, after all.

Bonuspokus

just5moreminutes, post: 7345688, member: 45295 wrote:

I like black sheep. Makes it very easy to get black wool.:D

Arthur can sort of deal with setups. He has so much invincibility on Heavenly Slash and his hypers that you have to respect him a little bit. I agree with the mobility part though. What the hell did they give him in exchange? Invincibility and a counter?

Lariat is good with a lot of characters. It is probably the best defensive assist in the game. Why not give it to a character who really needs it? Lariat helped win EVO 2011, after all.

Yeah, but Lariat was helping Wesker AND Dark Phoenix.

just5moreminutes

Bonuspokus, post: 7346439, member: 61033 wrote:

Yeah, but Lariat was helping Wesker AND Dark Phoenix.

Find someone else who profits from Lariat to put with Arthur/Hawkeye or find someone who helps Arthur and Haggar. Synergy is still there between those two, but things get silly with a third who can add to this team's synergy.

Rokmode

Mr. X, post: 7344826, member: 7367 wrote:

There's a difference between zoning and keep away and keep away in MvC3 is really weak.

It's actually pretty good in ultimate. It's a viable strategy.

xX_Deus_Xx, post: 7343826, member: 2362 wrote:

actually, ONLY SCRUBS COMPLAIN ABOUT "spamming"

Considering nitro plays morridoom, I'm fairly confident that he's joking

just5moreminutes

Rokmode, post: 7347276, member: 48650 wrote:

Considering nitro plays morridoom, I'm fairly confident that he's joking

THERE IS NO JOKING HERE. SRK ISN'T ALL FUN & GAMES, IT'S ABOUT FIGHTING GAMES.

Mr. X

Rokmode, post: 7347276, member: 48650 wrote:

It's actually pretty good in ultimate. It's a viable strategy.

No it isn't. If you try to play keepaway, you lose. Look at early Chris G Morrigan when he tried to play keepaway compared to now that he plays her like a zoner.

Bonuspokus

Mr. X, post: 7347520, member: 7367 wrote:

No it isn't. If you try to play keepaway, you lose. Look at early Chris G Morrigan when he tried to play keepaway compared to now that he plays her like a zoner.

Actually, if people can't get close to his Morrigan, it counts as keep away, even if he is killing you through chip damage.

True Grave

Mr. X, post: 7347520, member: 7367 wrote:

No it isn't. If you try to play keepaway, you lose. Look at early Chris G Morrigan when he tried to play keepaway compared to now that he plays her like a zoner.

Thats because Morrigan is a zoner. She does not have the tools for pure keepaway.

Mr. X

Bonuspokus, post: 7347684, member: 61033 wrote:

Actually, if people can't get close to his Morrigan, it counts as keep away, even if he is killing you through chip damage.

No it doesn't.

This thread is going to go to hell unless keepaway and zoning are clearly defined.

The line is between keepaway and zoning is blurry, and neither style has to involve projectiles, so in my opinion it's about the goal...if the goal is to get them to take chip damage or force them to MOVE to a position that's better for you to prevent the chip, it's zoning. If the goal is for you to not get hit and you don't care what they're doing so long as they leave you alone, it's keepaway. Runaway Storm or Spiral would be keepaway, since they don't really care how much damage you take as long as you're over there, whereas Cable is much more zoning because his intent is to force you to move until you make a mistake and then kill you. Fireball-spam MvC3 Morrigan is hard to define, but I put her more with runaway Spiral since she's relatively less interested in you dying than in her NOT dying. I guess that means I'd lump "lockdown" in more with "keepaway".

In the words of someone with a Cable I respect, "A zoning character wants to open your opponent up just as much as rushdown. They both want to force mistakes, just different kinds."
-Mike Z

I still think zoning Morrigan is leagues better than keepaway Morrigan

fenrir04

Keepaway = keeping your opponents away from you

Zoning = putting your opponents in a desirable position for you, not necessarily away from you

Am I correct with the definitions?

F0xhound009

Nitro Noodlez, post: 7335311, member: 12455 wrote:

Spamming is for scrubs.

the same could be said about people that don't ever stop hitting buttons when they are "rushing down"

True Grave

F0xhound009, post: 7349792, member: 25582 wrote:

the same could be said about people that don't ever stop hitting buttons when they are "rushing down"

Or those teleport teams out there that constantly do assist+teleport, the ENTIRE match, in an attempt to catch somebody in a cookie cutter set-up.

Spamming? Yessir.

Dreize

The problem with Arthur's movement is that they replicated the original games wayy to much.

He has the same walk animation, same jump animation, same double jump, etc.

In this fast paced game, Arthur in that form just doesn't work. He's a slow ass motherfucker with sub-par health, decent zoning capabilities, and a risky level 1 power-up super.

Characters with teleports essentially blow him up for free as well. He wasn't designed to be good in this game, plain and simple.