Every Day is SMP Day: The Naoto Thread

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  • Fore God ViiFore God Vii Level 2 Member Joined: Posts: 475
    That's 236B~D. The combos are
    1: 5B 5C 236B~D 665C IAD j.B* j.C 5C 236A~D (setup 214C/D for oki)
    2: (D trap hit) 5C IAD j.A j.C 665C 236B~D 66 5C IAD j.A j.C 665C 236A~Bx5 (can also do ~D, trap set to get oki)

    *- I'm like 99% sure you can do a j.A here instead and it's easier

    I don't think I'll ever do this combo just cause of that 1 part ill stick to easier ones i guess
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  • Ming FuMing Fu Joined: Posts: 39
    You huys think they intended for the SMP loop? If not, you guys think they are going to patch it?
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    I'm sure it wasn't intended, but I don't expect it to get patched any time soon if at all.

    edit: PS, I'm going to update the combos listed here with images now that I figured out how to do :snka: :snkb: :snkc: :snkd:

    edit2: Also added fate data and the SMP loop off of sweep to the first post.
  • DyceDyce SRK's Meteorologist. Joined: Posts: 202
    Thanks for adding the icons!
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  • njck cannonnjck cannon Joined: Posts: 34
    Thanks Narcowski!
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    Updated OP because :snkc: (ch) :uf::f: j.:snka: j.:snkc: is crouch only and :snkc: (ch) :uf::f: j.:snkb: j.:snkc: is stand only. Better get used to confirming stand/crouch - there's not even an easy "covers all bases" option.
  • stickystainesstickystaines Joined: Posts: 835
    Is CH C common or is it just where you press C anyway because you want to IAD for pressure but end up turning it into a combo?
  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    For those still having trouble with the SMP combos, if it involves [2C], do note that all 3 hits have to land.
    Guys im a bit confused...I don't know exactly how Naoto is meant to be played (I have been winning most of my matches on ranked and player matches though). Is she supposed to be a keep-away character with her traps or a rush-down as it seems from the combo videos?
    I've been playing her as a keep-away with her traps and just combo off her traps...plus some people online already starting bitching about this specific keep-away style...so yeah just wondering if shes a keep-away or a rush down or can be used as both?
    As Narcowski said, she's somewhat like a jack of all trades. Proficient in both zoning and rushdown, but completely proficient in both playstyles as characters with those respective playstyles would dominate her.

    Also has anybody here been having success with playing "footsies" with Naoto's 5C, 2C and occasionally her 5B?
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  • GemakaiGemakai Making this look cool! Joined: Posts: 1,088
    Digging Naoto so far. And here I was figuring I'd be playing Chie or Aigis or Akihiko.

    I like Naoto's tricks so far. Just having trouble setting up the SMP Loop. I get to the Mudo and IAD over, but then I can't seem to drop the trap in time to then hit the opponent... Not consistently anyway. Any advice or just keep practicing?
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  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    Digging Naoto so far. And here I was figuring I'd be playing Chie or Aigis or Akihiko.

    I like Naoto's tricks so far. Just having trouble setting up the SMP Loop. I get to the Mudo and IAD over, but then I can't seem to drop the trap in time to then hit the opponent... Not consistently anyway. Any advice or just keep practicing?
    While it's not necessary, for now, try jumping forward immediately and laying the trap the moment you land. The reason why some players do this is because sometimes while waiting for Mudoon's mist to end, they input the command for the trap too early and it doesn't come out, by jumping, they remove the timing aspect of it as the moment they land is about the same time the mist is over.
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  • GemakaiGemakai Making this look cool! Joined: Posts: 1,088
    While it's not necessary, for now, try jumping forward immediately and laying the trap the moment you land. The reason why some players do this is because sometimes while waiting for Mudoon's mist to end, they input the command for the trap too early and it doesn't come out, by jumping, they remove the timing aspect of it as the moment they land is about the same time the mist is over.
    Yea, I figure it was something with the timing of the mist. I just kind of figured, since Naoto could move, you can set up as you want to. Shame that isn't the case.
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    I suggest IADing not just to time the :qcb:+:snkd:, but also because it (seems to me to) get Naoto into the corner to begin the loop from a slightly farther distance away than otherwise possible.
  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    Posted this in two other forums but why not here? I feel like I've hit a plateau with Naoto since I wasn't as successful in last night's offline meetup with my local scene. They all started to catch on to how I like to stagger bullets to get in free damage, actually blocking SB Aim, my 5C 2C footsies aren't working and they keep disarming my traps. I'm also scared to attempt to get into 5A range because I keep getting outpoked into a 2-3K combo most of the time.
    Maybe it's just me and I simply need more match up experience, use Naoto's tools better such as her 2B and sweep, or just get better fundamentals, but other than that, I'm somewhat frustrated right now. I feel that no matter how many times I lose, I barely learn anything when that shouldn't be the case at all. :(
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  • ShoutaShouta Joined: Posts: 256
    I typically don't just walk up and do the D-Trap when I setup the loop myself. Getting the timing of when Mudoon ends isn't all that hard and takes a few tries to perfect.
  • RedVegaRedVega Joined: Posts: 862
    Finally learned one SMP loop, got up to 31 hits lol
    Honestly its pretty decent once you get the timing ..i noticed that you need to backup a bit in the corner in order to land the 3 hits of the crouching c
    Most of my conbo problems really have to do with IAD..just find it really hard to do.
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    You don't actually have to do the empty IAD in the SMP loop, it just lets you confirm it from farther away and times the trap perfectly at all distances. You also don't have to back up to do the 2[C], you just have to delay slightly. There are various methods for timing this; I just wait, some people immediately backdash after 236A~D and then just hold 2[C] until it comes out, and you're backing up. They're all valid, so just do whatever works for you.

    ps: The 5AA SMP loop goes up to 35 hits at most, so you're nearly there :)
  • RedVegaRedVega Joined: Posts: 862
    You don't actually have to do the empty IAD in the SMP loop, it just lets you confirm it from farther away and times the trap perfectly at all distances. You also don't have to back up to do the 2[C], you just have to delay slightly. There are various methods for timing this; I just wait, some people immediately backdash after 236A~D and then just hold 2[C] until it comes out, and you're backing up. They're all valid, so just do whatever works for you.

    ps: The 5AA SMP loop goes up to 35 hits at most, so you're nearly there :)
    lol sorry i should have clarified, the IAD helps me ALOT for the 5AA smp loop. What i meant was that i have a hard time using iad during midscreen/regular combos.

    And I JUST got 35 lol
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    The combo after 214D (hit) / 2B (antiair) is definitely harder than any SMP loop, and quite possibly one of Naoto's hardest practical combos overall. Getting the 5C IAD j.A/B j.C is the easy part, even; the hard part is correctly timing each on-landing 5C, I think. There is a trick to getting IAD after 5C though: 5C's jump-cancelable frames come later than you might expect, so you kind of have to input 5C, wait for it to hit, and input the IAD in its hitstop. That's how it feels to me, anyways. The other trick is to delay the j.A/B j.C very slightly; you need to have fallen close to the ground when the j.C hits or the enemy will be able to tech out before the next 5C hits.
  • PhreakazoidPhreakazoid Turkey Legs Incoming! Joined: Posts: 3,477
    Finally switched it up to the AA starter SMP and can nail it every time without problems... goddamn B, C, 2C starter one is killing me so I'll just avoid it for now, plenty of other areas to work on.

    Speaking of which though, can't seem to get the D trap OMB mid screen one. I'll hit everything but can't seem to keep the loop (drops after 2, so I didn't get it).

    D trap, 2A, 2B, 5C, sj, jA, jB, JC, OMB, land and charge 2C, short dash cancel into 5B, B double fang.

    Am I missing anything on that one? I may play with it so that instead of the 5C at the beginning I end it with 5C after the charge 2C like the AA start SMP.

    Wouldn't be a big deal, but I'd like to pocket those two loops for guaranteed damage when it counts then work on everything else.
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  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    Finally switched it up to the AA starter SMP and can nail it every time without problems... goddamn B, C, 2C starter one is killing me so I'll just avoid it for now, plenty of other areas to work on.

    Speaking of which though, can't seem to get the D trap OMB mid screen one. I'll hit everything but can't seem to keep the loop (drops after 2, so I didn't get it).

    D trap, 2A, 2B, 5C, sj, jA, jB, JC, OMB, land and charge 2C, short dash cancel into 5B, B double fang.

    Am I missing anything on that one? I may play with it so that instead of the 5C at the beginning I end it with 5C after the charge 2C like the AA start SMP.

    Wouldn't be a big deal, but I'd like to pocket those two loops for guaranteed damage when it counts then work on everything else.
    It's okay if you add a 5C in between 5B and Niren Kiba B given that you delay it a bit.
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  • stickystainesstickystaines Joined: Posts: 835
    Finally switched it up to the AA starter SMP and can nail it every time without problems... goddamn B, C, 2C starter one is killing me so I'll just avoid it for now, plenty of other areas to work on.

    Speaking of which though, can't seem to get the D trap OMB mid screen one. I'll hit everything but can't seem to keep the loop (drops after 2, so I didn't get it).

    D trap, 2A, 2B, 5C, sj, jA, jB, JC, OMB, land and charge 2C, short dash cancel into 5B, B double fang.

    Am I missing anything on that one? I may play with it so that instead of the 5C at the beginning I end it with 5C after the charge 2C like the AA start SMP.

    Wouldn't be a big deal, but I'd like to pocket those two loops for guaranteed damage when it counts then work on everything else.
    You could try this one:

    Near corner) (214D hits), 2A, 2B, j.A, j.B (jc) j.C (OMB) 2C(hold), 5B, 5C xx [236B~D] xN
    Vid of combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYQATmDm9Wo#t=1m13s
  • GemakaiGemakai Making this look cool! Joined: Posts: 1,088
    So I've been getting the hang of setting up the SMP loop. One set up I'm having issues with is 5AA, 214AB->CCCCC xx Mudo

    For the life of me, I can't get that mudo cancel to hit. Any suggestions on successfully connecting Mudo after the gun shots?
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    (Aim)~CCCC236C236D will shortcut it.
  • obsidianchaoobsidianchao Owns No Purses (Purse Owner) Joined: Posts: 244
    How do you Naoto players stop a Kanji who uses that damn aerial drop grab for approach? I can never dodge it.
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  • stickystainesstickystaines Joined: Posts: 835
    Crouch it.
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    2B, 214B, 214A+B, very late C shot, and j.214C placed just above head height and in front of Naoto.
  • GcYoshi13GcYoshi13 #1 PTX-40A Pilot Joined: Posts: 1,489
    Have a question and I'm going to leave it here:

    I can't get the SMP loop because for some reason, the opponent flips out after the second B double fang, here's what I'm doing:

    5A,5B,5C,2C->236236D -> jump -> D trap, 5A, 5A, A double fang, fully charged 3 hit 2C, 5C, B double fang, D, B double fang (opponent flips out immediately here).

    What am I doing wrong? From the way I'm doing it, it looks like I'm not even exploiting the SMP glitch or something.
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  • stickystainesstickystaines Joined: Posts: 835
    Drop the first 5A
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    That won't work.

    From 5A, do one of these - #1 for max damage, but #2 requires less meter:
    1. 5AA 5B 2C 236236D 214D 2A+B 236A~D [Megiddo D hit] 2[C] 5C [236B~D x11] 236A~D
    2. 5AAAA~Cx5 236236D 214D, 236A~D, [Megiddo D hit] 2[C] 5C [236B~D x8], 236A~D.
    From 5B, do one of these - #2 does 200 more damage than #1 but is more effort. #3 works midscreen and guarantees death, but requires 75% meter.
    1. 5B, 5C, 2C, 236236D 214D, 5A (x2), 236A~D, [Megiddo D hit], charged 2C, 2B, [236B~D x11], 236A~D
    2. 5B, 5C, 2C, 236236D 214C, 236A~D, [Megiddo C hit], 214D, 236A~D, [Megiddo D hit], 2[C], 5C, iad j.A, j.C, 5C, [236B~Dx9], 236A~D.
    3. 5B, 5C, 2A+B, 236A+B, 236236D 214D, 5A (x2), 236A~D, [Megiddo D hit], charged 2C, 2B, [236B~D x14], 236A~D
  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    How do you Naoto players stop a Kanji who uses that damn aerial drop grab for approach? I can never dodge it.
    Crouch and AA 2B it and convert into a 2.5k-3k combo. If they start to get smart and start whiffing the dive grab and landing right next to you so you'll whiff 2B and get CH, simply don't 2B and punish their recovery from the dive grab with a CH combo of your own.

    Putting air traps around head level should work as well. Anything helps as long as it gets them scared to use that dumb air dive grab of theirs.
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  • LL Stool JLL Stool J The power of the BROFIST compels you! Joined: Posts: 61
    Smp loop = infinite?
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  • stickystainesstickystaines Joined: Posts: 835
    Smp loop = infinite?
    No, its a loop. Why its called SMP loop.
  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    Smp loop = infinite?
    No because the opponent can tech out after getting hit after a set amount of 236Bs.
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  • obsidianchaoobsidianchao Owns No Purses (Purse Owner) Joined: Posts: 244
    So can someone here smarter than me explain why I can't just loop 236B in the corner (after 3, damage stops), yet the SMP loop works? I'm confused as to the mechanics...
    GT: RestoChesto

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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    So can someone here smarter than me explain why I can't just loop 236B in the corner (after 3, damage stops), yet the SMP loop works? I'm confused as to the mechanics...

    I'll break it down for you:

    Proration is a mechanic which causes combo damage scaling. It can be tied to particular attacks, or to the combo counter, or both. In the SFIV series, for instance, the first and second hits of a combo do not prorate, and the third hit is prorated to 80% of its "full" damage, the fourth to 70%, etc. Arc System Works games' proration works differently from the combo-counter based system in the SFIV series. Instead, certain attacks will prorate by a percentage in a multiplicative manner. Separate from this in-combo "P2" proration, attacks have a "P1" proration value as well. The P1 value can be seen as the "starting proration" for a combo; only the first hit in a given combo applies P1 proration. Furthermore, hitstun scaling (e.g. the amount of extra untechable time added from a given hit) is directly tied to combo proration. This is all pretty complicated, so I'll break it down with a couple examples:

    Let's say a character has a super which can be used in combos or as a strong reversal. Because of this, most of its proration will be in P1, and its P2 value will be strong (but not 100%, because every hit should scale a combo slightly). That way the designer can prevent this character from getting stupid amounts of damage from a reversal without damaging the move's in-combo potential. As sample values, let's call this super "SuperX", and assign it a 50% P1 and a 95% P2. On top of this, I'll define "RandomNormal" as a move with P1 90% and P2 92%. Now, to calculate the damage from a couple combo starters:

    RandomNormal -> SuperX -> Combo
    Damage from the super will be RandomNormal_P1 * RandomNormal_P2, or 82.8% of "full" damage. The first hit of the combo after SuperX is additionally scaled by SuperX_P2: 82.8% * 95% = 78.66%.
    SuperX -> Combo
    The super will deal full damage, but the first hit of combo afterwards will be scaled to SuperX_P1 * SuperX_P2, or 47.5%. The combo does significantly less damage as a result, and it may not be possible to do the same combo at all thanks to the additional hitstun scaling incurred from the extra protation.
    Arc System Works fighting games since BBCS (so BBCS, BBCS2, BBCS:Extend, and P4A) have had a system called "same move proration" in addition to 'standard' P1 (initial) and P2 ("always") proration. Basically, certain attacks have a third, very harsh proration value "SMP", often in the neighborhood of 10-20%. An attack's SMP value is applied to the proration of a combo when that attack is used for the second time within the combo, thus effectively "locking out" certain attacks from being used in loops without preventing those attacks from being valuable in combos at all. Many of Naoto's attacks have SMP as a property, including 236B, which is why you can't loop it straight up. At this point, you're probably wondering "Okay, but how does the SMP loop work then?" I'm getting to that :)

    When Arc System Works designed the Same Move Proration system, they implemented a limit on how many instances of SMP could be handled in one combo - 10 hits of SMP and it is ignored until a combo ends. The catch to this is that the "limit" is counted towards by any attack with a SMP value, whether or not it is the first time it has been used in a given combo. Normally, by the time a character would reach the 11th hit with an attack with SMP, proration would have reduced the amount of hitstun applied by hits enough that it wouldn't really be possible to loop anyways. However, Naoto not only has many different attacks with same move proration, allowing her to avoid prorating her combos to awful percentages before reaching the SMP limit, she has Mudoon, which positively impacts combo scaling (OMB does this also, which is why SMP loops can be Mudoon or OMB based). Once the limit has been hit, the only source of proration in the generic SMP loop is 236B's very strong P2 value, so hitstun decays very slowly, allowing for the loop to occur.
  • obsidianchaoobsidianchao Owns No Purses (Purse Owner) Joined: Posts: 244
    So 236B's P1 value is horrid, hence why it only goes three times until no damage? Wow.

    I gotta learn these SMP loops (garbage with combos, but I'll try!). The thought of pulverising Kanji in one combo is all too satisfying.

    Is there any particular reason why Naoto has so many SMP moves? Did ASW purposefully permit the SMP loop?
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    No, 236B's P1 value is pretty good too, it's the fact that it has a SMP value that keeps you from looping it. I don't know how I managed to miss that bit.

    For comparison, this "MoveX" has 100 P1 and 98 P2. "MoveY" is the same, but has 10% SMP. If each attack can be linked or chained into itself indefinitely, you get the following scaling:

    MoveX combo scaling by hit: 100, 0.98, 0.960, 0.941, 0.922, 0.908, ... (still very good)
    MoveY combo scaling by hit: 100, 0.098, 0.0096, ... (effectively zero)

    Basically what hitting the SMP limit does is make MoveY scale like MoveX instead for the rest of a combo.

    As far as the loop being intentional, no, I very much doubt it. SMP loops were retroactively discovered in Blazblue (which has the same limit) after Naoto's loop was found, and there is at least one other character in P4A who can do a SMP loop (Yosuke), the real difference is that Naoto's SMP loops are practical. The one known for Yosuke requires Awakening, 100 SP, and OMB and still doesn't kill most characters. Why she has so many attacks with SMP is speculation, but I would guess that it's because she has several tools which otherwise lend themselves well to loops even outside of the SMP loop. One example is the IAD "loop" which she already has; if not for SMP she would be able to do multiple repetitions of the bolded part: 214D(hit) or 2B(antiair) 5C iad j.B j.C 665C 236B~D 6[6] 5C iad j.B j.C 5C 236A~D. Move proration data is a character balance issue.
  • LL Stool JLL Stool J The power of the BROFIST compels you! Joined: Posts: 61
    No because the opponent can tech out after getting hit after a set amount of 236Bs.
    Ah ok thanks
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  • LL Stool JLL Stool J The power of the BROFIST compels you! Joined: Posts: 61
    No, its a loop. Why its called SMP loop.

    Smart ass ;)
    I was tired lol
    Just wondered as the combos where this is used do so much damage i though people were just being.curteous and dropping it;)
    Is there any way you can use this technique with the instant death machanic she has?
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  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    Smart ass ;)
    I was tired lol
    Just wondered as the combos where this is used do so much damage i though people were just being.curteous and dropping it;)
    Is there any way you can use this technique with the instant death machanic she has?
    I'm not quite sure what you're question means. But of course, if your opponent has 0 skulls, you'd go for a combo into IK rather than an SMP loop because Mudoon would kill them anyway, rather than reset proration and whatnot.
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