Every Day is SMP Day: The Naoto Thread

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  • obsidianchaoobsidianchao Owns No Purses (Purse Owner) Joined: Posts: 244
    What's the easiest way to get skulls to zero? 2C is helpful, and 236236B would be great, except it generally wastes meter. Also, best way to combo into Mudoon? Hamaon is an easy block.
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  • LL Stool JLL Stool J The power of the BROFIST compels you! Joined: Posts: 61
    I'm not quite sure what you're question means. But of course, if your opponent has 0 skulls, you'd go for a combo into IK rather than an SMP loop because Mudoon would kill them anyway, rather than reset proration and whatnot.

    I meant is there any way u can reduce the skulls to zero while doing this loop?
    I havnt got the game yet due to UK release date so kinda just gaining knowledge...iv not yet seen the loop in a tournament setting yet
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    What's the easiest way to get skulls to zero? 2C is helpful, and 236236B would be great, except it generally wastes meter. Also, best way to combo into Mudoon? Hamaon is an easy block.
    5AAA combos into Hamaon. For Mudoon, just go look at the full SMP loop list on Dustloop if you need routes, but pretty much anything can go into Mudoon.

    I meant is there any way u can reduce the skulls to zero while doing this loop?
    I havnt got the game yet due to UK release date so kinda just gaining knowledge...iv not yet seen the loop in a tournament setting yet
    No. Only the first fate-reducing hit in a combo takes Fate away (exception: 236236B). Therems not much reason to anyways, you're probably going to kill the other player anyways.
  • LL Stool JLL Stool J The power of the BROFIST compels you! Joined: Posts: 61
    No. Only the first fate-reducing hit in a combo takes Fate away (exception: 236236B). Therems not much reason to anyways, you're probably going to kill the other player anyways.

    Nice, does a lot of damage!
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  • norborbnorborb Joined: Posts: 44
    That's 236B~D. The combos are
    1: 5B 5C 236B~D 665C IAD j.B* j.C 5C 236A~D (setup 214C/D for oki)
    2: (D trap hit) 5C IAD j.A j.C 665C 236B~D 66 5C IAD j.A j.C 665C 236A~Bx5 (can also do ~D, trap set to get oki)

    *- I'm like 99% sure you can do a j.A here instead and it's easier
    I have been trying to do this first combo because I figure it's an easier start than trying to delve straight into the smp loops, but are you sure that it works midscreen? I was in training mode for awhile just trying to get 236B~D 665C to work and it never hit once. Do I need a counter hit, or is there some trick to the dash, maybe it's character specific? Trying to do this on Chie it doesn't look like that 5C is getting anywhere close.
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    I have been trying to do this first combo because I figure it's an easier start than trying to delve straight into the smp loops, but are you sure that it works midscreen? I was in training mode for awhile just trying to get 236B~D 665C to work and it never hit once. Do I need a counter hit, or is there some trick to the dash, maybe it's character specific? Trying to do this on Chie it doesn't look like that 5C is getting anywhere close.

    I am 100% certain that it works midscreen on everyone. On the other hand, if you're thinking that it'll be easier than the SMP loop, you probably couldn't be farther from right. Naoto's IAD combos are far and away harder than SMP loops (for comparable damage and carry to an easymode Yu BnB).
  • norborbnorborb Joined: Posts: 44
    I am 100% certain that it works midscreen on everyone. On the other hand, if you're thinking that it'll be easier than the SMP loop, you probably couldn't be farther from right. Naoto's IAD combos are far and away harder than SMP loops (for comparable damage and carry to an easymode Yu BnB).

    Does it work the same on all the characters? Do we know anything about variability of character weight and hitboxes in this game yet? I have gotten the dash part to work on some characters but not others so is the timing different?
    As far as getting down good BnBs, even if the SMP loops are easier than her IAD combos, SMP loops are situational, they need to be near a corner. If you are dead midscreen then what do you do? Should I focus more on carrying to the corner so I can have a chance to set up that high damage loop or should I go for the damage I can immediately take?
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    Does it work the same on all the characters? Do we know anything about variability of character weight and hitboxes in this game yet? I have gotten the dash part to work on some characters but not others so is the timing different?
    As far as getting down good BnBs, even if the SMP loops are easier than her IAD combos, SMP loops are situational, they need to be near a corner. If you are dead midscreen then what do you do? Should I focus more on carrying to the corner so I can have a chance to set up that high damage loop or should I go for the damage I can immediately take?

    The timing feels be slightly more or less strict from character to character, but I don't really remember having to grind out different timings once I learned to do the combo on characters with (vertically thin air hitboxes (Elizabeth, Naoto). I learned it by getting the timing to link a dash out of 236B~D down to muscle memory then figuring out how to visually time 5C by the location of the enemy character, and I think to some degree I still confirm it visually, just with less thinking about it. That's pretty much how I approach every combo with a spacing dependent delay.

    With extra meter, you can turn certain hits midscreen or even cornered into SMP loops (see the Dustloop thread). That said, you don't always have the meter, hence IAD combos. They provide better damage than anything else she can do off of their starters for no meter, pretty good carry, and a chance at okizeme afterwards. If you're not confidant in your ability to do 236B~D 66 5C, you can go for 236B~Cx5 instead, sacrificing oki, positioning, and a good chunk of damage, but avoiding the woes of whiffing 5C through an enemy you let tech.

    Frankly, Naoto is a pretty technical character and there's no real substitute for knowing your combos. Whereas (say) a Chie player can play Chie "correctly" without advanced combos (simple combos into okizeme work fine), utilizing Naoto's simple combos will pretty much entirely prevent you from using the same style as top-level Naoto players; you will never get solid oki from a midscreen hit unless you learn IAD combos.

    The best advice I can really give is to keep at it - learning the IAD combos off of common hits is a good place to start, just don't expect them to be easy. I would probably recommend learning the throw starter SMP loop next, because that way you will be able to convert most every hit into damage (copy-pasted from Dustloop):

    CD~C>236236D>214C>214D (214C hits)>236A~Bx1~D>2[C]>2B>5C>SMPx7>236A~D (50 meter, 5.7k damage) (Does not work on Teddie. Use: 236236D>214D>5AA>236A~D (214D hits)>2[C]>2B>5C>SMPx4>236A~D instead)

    After that, just keep adding loops based on which common situations you notice in matches where you wish you could get more damage, pretty much.
  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    At the very least, you should be able execute IAD combos off of ground traps when your opponent's back is closer to the corner which is where I'm at right now but not 100% consistently yet due to some character's weird hitboxes like Mitsuru. Unfortunately, I still can't do stuff like double IAD combos when my back is in the corner, 665C correctly or linking 5C from a grounded 236B~D since my execution is so ass at the moment. :(

    However, here are a few (gimmicky) substitutions for not being able to perform IAD combos fully that you can use when you're not confident in your execution at her technical combos are these.

    (In the corner)
    stuff > 236B~D > 5C > 236A~D > Oki
    ^ for when you're not confident in pulling off IADs yet. At the very least you'll get Oki

    stuff > 236B~D > 5C > IAD > j.A/j.B > j.C > (D trap*) > airgrab reset
    ^ not 100% guaranteed
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  • stickystainesstickystaines Joined: Posts: 835
    I hardly ever see top Naotos go into IAD combos off grounded 236B though. A lot of them will just go into sweep 236A~D, dash 214D.

    I think getting the IAD combos off of anti air starters and trap starters is pretty important though.
  • RedVegaRedVega Joined: Posts: 861
    Do you guys think that her SMP loop could work through a grab > C > mudoon??
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    Do grab -> mudoon -> 214C 214D (214C hit) 236A~Bx1~D (214D hit) 2[C] 2B 5C -> loop x7 236A~D (on every character but Teddie)
    On Teddie, do mudoon -> 214D 5AA 236A~D 2[C] 2B 5C -> loop x4 236A~D instead.
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    Added a few new combos to the OP of the thread, including new meterless beginner combos (which still involve 236B~D 6[6] 5C... get used to that).
  • Fore God ViiFore God Vii Level 2 Member Joined: Posts: 475
    i can't beat decent players with naotoo :(
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  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    So my thing with the smp loop is that I can't seem to D trap, and I don't know why.

    I jump forward in the air, do the motion and it doesn't come out 100% of the time.
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • PhreakazoidPhreakazoid Turkey Legs Incoming! Joined: Posts: 3,477
    One example is the IAD "loop" which she already has; if not for SMP she would be able to do multiple repetitions of the bolded part: 214D(hit) or 2B(antiair) 5C iad j.B j.C 665C 236B~D 6[6] 5C iad j.B j.C 5C 236A~D. Move proration data is a character balance issue.

    I feel like a total billy badass landing this loop. Just trying to get it down from different starters that's getting me. I can do it off a trap easily (actually, putting in a 2B, 5C to get the height gauged better at the start) but before I could play with it a little more from things like an air throw -> OMC to get it consistently my PS3 YLOD :/

    Kept trying to make my own variant of a corner throw -> SMP but it just wouldn't work, need to try the one listed here instead.
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  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    So it still seems like people are still having trouble with the IAD combos, myself included. I can somewhat pull it off, as long as I know that the initial carry from the first IAD will bring my opponent into the corner, then it's cake from there, but for the most part, I'm still playing a more mobile, zoning and IK reliant Naoto, which is not a wrong way to play her, in fact it was her "default" style in the first place, however if we are to continue playing this style, we have to understand that we're giving up valuable opportunities for Oki and we must improve our neutral game in exchange.

    /2cents
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  • GemakaiGemakai Making this look cool! Joined: Posts: 1,088
    I can't do the IAD or even SMP combos in actual matches yet, but that's what practice is for.

    I did read something over at Dustloop that I thought was a neat little mix up
    -Otsdarva- wrote:
    Day 2 of my Naoto journey. I've been playing around with hit confirms and some other stuff in the lab and I'm trying to come up with a good punish off of a 236A/B OMC into Naoto's 2A. As we all know, the second hit of 236A/B is an overhead, and players will begin to block high as they learn the Naoto max up, so to create a little 50/50 I OMC the first hit allowing me to ether go high with 5C or low with 2A, you can even cross up or fakie. The problem is I can't find a good 2A punish combo without using more meter, and now I'm wondering If anyone has a good 2A combo without using OMC.

    I like the idea. I don't know how far Naoto would be without practicing it myself, but as far as positioning goes there's always dashing to get as close as you can. With that in mind, you should be good to perform decent punish combos. A couple of theory combo that come to mind is

    2a > 5b > 5c > 236B~CCCCC

    Or if you have the meter for it

    2a > 5b > 5c > 2C > 236236D > Dash > 214 D > 2AB > 236A~D > D Trap hits > 2[C] > 5C > 236Bxn

    Definitely something to experiment with.
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  • Nitro NoodlezNitro Noodlez ヽ(*゚д゚)ノ Joined: Posts: 5,878
    Anybody have any advice against Shadow Labrys? Asterius just blocks bullets all day and he makes it pretty hard to set up traps around the stage. I'm also having trouble against Shadow Labrys's IAD j.B and cross up j.B. Once she gets in it's curtains, cause it seems like she can pressure and pummel Naoto for free. DP seems especially useless in this matchup.
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    I've heard that SMP is getting patched out?
    Any concrete info on that, don't feel like wasting my time on something that will be gone soon enough.

    Also, what is the Naoto V Kanji matchup?
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    It's been rumored that it would be patched out since it was discovered, and it probably will be removed if ASW releases another balance update. On the other hand, it's still there for now, and honestly it's not hard, especially from 5A.

    Naoto v. Kanji: I lame this one out, typically. Well-placed j.214C prevents him from diving, and then you're free to shoot him to your heart's content. If he moves for Lightning, adjust your positioning and take the free primer away from him. Your main concern should be not getting scooped; his Awakening super command grab does more than 50% to Naoto on counter hit.
    Anybody have any advice against Shadow Labrys? Asterius just blocks bullets all day and he makes it pretty hard to set up traps around the stage. I'm also having trouble against Shadow Labrys's IAD j.B and cross up j.B. Once she gets in it's curtains, cause it seems like she can pressure and pummel Naoto for free. DP seems especially useless in this matchup.

    Rush her down, trying to break Asterius (her Persona); you are more mobile than she is, and you aren't going to break it by turtling. Getting put on defense in this matchup makes it very hard for Naoto; you have low life and pressure from a good S.Lab is a scary thing.
  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    I've heard that SMP is getting patched out?
    Any concrete info on that, don't feel like wasting my time on something that will be gone soon enough.

    Also, what is the Naoto V Kanji matchup?

    where did you hear that from? There isn't even any word that there will be a patch for this game. Please don't start rumors.
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    where did you hear that from? There isn't even any word that there will be a patch for this game. Please don't start rumors.
    Hence why I asked for concrete info.
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • PhreakazoidPhreakazoid Turkey Legs Incoming! Joined: Posts: 3,477
    He's not starting a rumor, he's asking for confirmation/info if anyone has any.

    I mean... I understand why they'd do it, so for now I'll just stick with simple 5AA starter as a punish near the corner. Otherwise I'll just use IAD combos mid screen and not be too concerned otherwise.
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  • ManyeahtruManyeahtru Joined: Posts: 45
    Also, what is the Naoto V Kanji matchup?

    i met a kanji player that i played a couple matches in ranked with and he said in his opinion the matchup is 7-4 in Naotos favor.. i said thats BS and we just hit up some plater matches..

    Alot of the matches come close but no matter how much damage i do with traps moving around gun shots etc etc if i get stuck in ONE good command throw loop im done.. it does so much damage.. just crouch under the leaping throw and also 214AB is your friend to get out of corners also hopping the command throw on reaction if you can.. ive also had good success just rushing them down but like i said.. one good grab and its all for naught
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841

    The super at the end is obviously not practical, and 236B (FC) doesn't come up much, but this looks worth learning to me...
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    i met a kanji player that i played a couple matches in ranked with and he said in his opinion the matchup is 7-4 in Naotos favor.. i said thats BS and we just hit up some plater matches..

    Alot of the matches come close but no matter how much damage i do with traps moving around gun shots etc etc if i get stuck in ONE good command throw loop im done.. it does so much damage.. just crouch under the leaping throw and also 214AB is your friend to get out of corners also hopping the command throw on reaction if you can.. ive also had good success just rushing them down but like i said.. one good grab and its all for naught
    That's how I felt when I played a Kanji at locals.

    If I keep him out until awakening, I get thrown, one more canceled, and bam, all my hard work gone, and it's 'next hit kills'.
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • ManyeahtruManyeahtru Joined: Posts: 45
    That's how I felt when I played a Kanji at locals.

    If I keep him out until awakening, I get thrown, one more canceled, and bam, all my hard work gone, and it's 'next hit kills'.

    him more than anyone i try and get the fate meter down.. its actually happens quick if they keep running into traps tryna leap at me.. also spamming gun shots but leaving the last fate one in the chamber in case they jump at me..

    keep getting happy trying to get in and be surrounded by light nomsayin
  • GemakaiGemakai Making this look cool! Joined: Posts: 1,088
    Kanji v Naoto is definitely an interesting fight, forcing you to exploit Naoto's zoning moreso than her other matchups


    This is a good watch for that fight though. The Naoto player plays very smart and keeps away from Kanji. The Kanji fight definitely seems like the one fight where Mudoon/Hamaon is most useful
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  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    If they patch it out, theres nothing you can do about that. But there is no reason why you shouldn't be learning her most damaging combos because in the future they might patch it out. There is no info on a patch even in the works so SMP away people.
  • GemakaiGemakai Making this look cool! Joined: Posts: 1,088
    EDIT: HERP A DERP! I READ THE POSTS

    Something I found in random searching. Seems like a nice midscreen combo to consider.
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    I linked that like five posts up, haha.
    Anyways, the guy that devised it called it "unoptimized"; you can apparently loop the IADs in the same direction as well for a full corner-to-corner carry into 236A~D knockdown.
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=Oq27NLnkdOM
    Optimized (?) midscreen FC combos.

    edit: one more...
  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    Okay, I've been getting bopped at locals pretty badly.

    I don't think that it's because they're even better than me, I believe it's because.

    1:I can't find good ground to start with Naoto.
    2:They're playing easier characters to learn.

    2 is not my problem and I have to deal with it, but I come to you all about number 1, where should I start out with Naoto?

    Simple combos with her are not a problem, but the iad combos are out of my reach.

    Should I learn my traps more first, become a training mode hero until my optomized bnbs are down, or what?
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    In general, a good start for Naoto in a neutral situation is to be laying traps at different locations in order to limit your opponent's movement. Well aimed shots should do this as well. If they get caught in a ground trap, it's a free combo for you. However, don't just use the traps as tools for a free combo, if you catch your opponent trying to disarm them, punish them with a 2C. If they block it, don't just call it a day, continue the pressure that the blocked trap started. Naoto's 5D~D is also good for starting pressure, if they block it, rush up and continue the pressure, if they don't, convert into a Fate Counter removing combo that you want. If the opponent sees the 5D~D coming and hits Sukona-Hikona while still invisible, don't let them get away with it for free, punish them will Aim (Front). If they jump, Aim (Anti-Air) should tag them, or if you want to risk it, Anti Air 2B or an airgrab should get them if they're not aware. The key to playing Naoto successfully is to always have an answer for what the opponent does to try to make the match a bit easier for them at all times.

    Yes, I'm getting discouraged by losing more than winning at locals too. If I lose, it's because I didn't stick to the plan I layed out above more than I was supposed to. It's true that Naoto's normals are subpar, and if your opponent plays someone like Mitsuru or Yu, it's not surprising if they beat you off of random hits converted into an easy 2K-3K combo, which is something Naoto can't do unless you have godly good execution for her midscreen combos or in the corner, but just hang in there.
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  • SpaceOutNightmareSpaceOutNightmare Stays Sandbaggin' Joined: Posts: 2,351
    Locals is full of Yu and Chie, so, yeah.

    Thanks for the advice.

    One more thing, I've been looking for combo notations of this one combo where someone lets the trap hit, does 5c and then double fang and kind of repeats that.

    Is that all there is to it, or are there normals that I am missing?
    Thinking about redoing BOB tournament for the patch, anyone game?
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    The combo you're looking for is 214D(hit) 5C 236B~D 66 5C 236A~D. It's one of the "easy" variants of 214D(hit) 5C iad j.B j.C 5C 236B~D 6[6] 5C iad j.B j.C 5C 236A~D; the others are 214D(hit) 5C iad j.B j.C 5C 236A~D and 214D(hit) 5C iad j.B j.C 5C 236B~Cx5. The dash link between 236B~D and 5C is pretty difficult, as is getting the height precisely right for 5C iad j.B j.C 5C.

    That's the trick though; have the height right and link your dash out of 236B~D perfectly.

    PS: The Mitsuru matchup isn't too bad; Naoto is at a small disadvantage, but she has some solid tools for that fight. Yu, on the other hand, seems to be to be her worst matchup.
  • ArachnofiendArachnofiend Double Uzis and a Wink Joined: Posts: 2,058
    I've been having a much harder time with Yosuke players than I have with Yus but that may just be because I haven't fought any good Yus yet.

    Any tips for the Yosuke fight? I play a very zoning oriented Naoto and Yosuke just does not give me the time to set up traps. I just get knocked down and block the next mix up until I inevitably get hit.
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  • PhreakazoidPhreakazoid Turkey Legs Incoming! Joined: Posts: 3,477
    Yosuke is tough as hell to fight against, and a good one will do his best to give you 0 breathing room (as he should, really). The gun is useless in this fight... don't even bother unless he's magically full screen for once and even that's dangerous because he can close space super quick.

    Basically against him you just really need to hold him in the neutral area until you can build some pressure. If he gives you room set traps (burning meter for EX traps is pretty solid here), DON'T rush toward him for pokes, let him come to you and 2C for max range or 5C counter hits into damage when he tries to disarm. I do my best by that simple tactic, but other than that I haven't really found much else to do that works.

    If he attempts to do the 5a/5aa -> dash cancel pressure you can stick a 5A in after he does 5AA (I think that's it, he spins the blade and cuts upward?).

    The persona attack that's grounded can be just jabbed (where it just kinda rushes at you), do NOT challenge the air one, that shit will kill you, just block.

    Confuse is so damn stupid, I can't stand that he has that. It fits for him, but still... it's just awful.
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  • IchipooIchipoo Not in front of the mirror, it's embarrassing <3 Joined: Posts: 2,532
    So we all know by now that Naoto has subpar normals, which basically allows Yu and Mitsuru players to run all over us by converting lucky random hits into 2K-3K combos. Well I'm starting to think that "intelligent spamming" of Naoto's F-Action is one of the best ways to get them to calm down and respect us. Don't just use it as a Reversal, if you can tell that an opponent likes to throw out random 5A pokes to play footsies, like Mitsuru, run up > F-Action will work if you can tell when and where the gap will occur. I'm starting to incorporate this into my gameplay. Now, obviously this has a backside to it of course.
    *insert generic shiny, glowy, and heavily photoshopped animu sig here*
    https://twitter.com/lchipoo
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