Could Raw launcher change SFxT?

Thancruz

Raw launching seems to be a under utilized tactic. I think of it as the low parry of SFxT, or the general mind frame of the tool, where you are able to negate the way your opponent wants to attack and forces them to switch their play style in a way they are not comofrtable with. Now some might say why do this when I can do something easier like boost combo with very little risk and high reward? Well because being able to take away options is well worth the risk and has bigger rewards. Now the launcher while a good offensive tool, has it's draw backs, like very unsafe on block and can be baited. While it may not be the end all be all mechanic in sfxt, I believe it has enough power to sway the way the neutral game is played and how options are maximized. I hope this kind of opens up some discussion on this tool, and see what others think.

-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums

SUPARNOVAX

People that actually use it are already changing their game up. Reading lows and punishing them for mashing it via 300-500 damage combos is great because you start off with a flat 100/125 and the scaling for these combos aren't devastating.

This is part of the conglomerate things, in my theory, that force people to hold down back a lot. You get blown up by big damage for mashing against someone that's good.

Fergus2k8

I agree with this, I don't use it enough myself, it can make the likes of Cody, Kazuya, and Ryu etc. who are quite dependant on crouching moves to really reconsider their options.

thecapsaicinkid

I think of it more as a DP for crouching moves. If you think about it like that it seems like a much higher risk/reward

Songi

I use raw launchers often. Honestly everytime I see a Cody, Shoto, Bison or Kazuya/Jin. I'm blasting out raw launchers left and right. I honestly have to give credit to Tatsu for opening up my eyes to the power of raw launchers. Fighting him and see him wreck my partner in 2 combos via a raw launcher was more than reason enough for me to start doing it.

If you're not using Raw launchers to punish Cody especially you're making things harder than they have to be. Once you catch Cody one time with a launcher I bet you he'll start acting like a deer caught in the headlights.

Intuitive2011

I had this discussion with our fellow members on here, people like Emblemlord said no. As launchers are too risky. Well, I'm a gambling man, and If I think you'll mash crouching lights or mediums on your wakeup; I'll launch you. That's why I KNOW tick throws must exist, as that guessing game is strong. 'throws are 7 frames, what do I do? Mash my fastest button.' OK, I'll walk up to you knowing that you'll do that, especially with characters like Cody and Chun Li, launchers work so well against them. And it keeps your opponent honest on their wakeup.

thecapsaicinkid

Cody can easily mix in standing normals when in close and you really wouldn't be DP'ing a 3f low at range so I'm not sure trying to catch it with a raw launcher is such a hot idea. If you miss, full combo for him. It might work on players who aren't used to it (i.e everyone) but it's not a good long term strategy imo.

Intuitive2011

thecapsaicinkid, post: 7467265, member: 17023 wrote:

Cody can easily mix in standing normals when in close and you really wouldn't be DP'ing a 3f low at range so I'm not sure trying to catch it with a raw launcher is such a hot idea. If you miss, full combo for him. It might work on players who aren't used to it (i.e everyone) but it's not a good long term strategy imo.

Really, I'm OK with those kinds of odds. I just want my opponent to respect the wakeup game instead of resorting too mashing. As for Cody specific, I'm not worried, what's he gonna do with one bar, Hit me with his one, highly punishable and not that invincible EX? He's easy to OS.

Songi

thecapsaicinkid, post: 7467265, member: 17023 wrote:

Cody can easily mix in standing normals when in close and you really wouldn't be DP'ing a 3f low at range so I'm not sure trying to catch it with a raw launcher is such a hot idea. If you miss, full combo for him. It might work on players who aren't used to it (i.e everyone) but it's not a good long term strategy imo.

My playstyle is all about high risk and high reward. Playing it too safe leads to time-outs and long matches. I really shouldn't be exposing myself like this but I actually do worse when the match drags out because I tend to get extremely careless. I'd rather players respect me than to try and bully me with a barrage of lows.

Thancruz

Intuitive2011, post: 7467259, member: 66101 wrote:

I had this discussion with our fellow members on here, people like Emblemlord said no. As launchers are too risky. Well, I'm a gambling man, and If I think you'll mash crouching lights or mediums on your wakeup; I'll launch you. That's why I KNOW tick throws must exist, as that guessing game is strong. 'throws are 7 frames, what do I do? Mash my fastest button.' OK, I'll walk up to you knowing that you'll do that, especially with characters like Cody and Chun Li, launchers work so well against them. And it keeps your opponent honest on their wakeup.

Yes they are very risky, I have had a few raw launcher blunders myself. But that is why I use parry as an example, while risky, it adds to another layer of depth in the mind game of how you train your opponent. Like how you say raw launchers are real good against Cody and Chun, because you will see a Cody using low short, Chun low short, even Rufus low short in most of their matches, launcher can make them think twice.

Juri_kills_friend!

Raw launchers are good and bad imo. If my opponent is solely relying on lows to blow up a throw i will neutral jump and raw launch them. But sometimes i get raw launcher going for lili frame traps. It's funny when it happens but it's only a slight set back. I just switch to standing frame traps and still throw a low. Raw launchers are a good tool but they are also a huge risk.

flyingcloud11

You guys are just using raw launchers....damn where have you all been. Living under a rock I suppose lol

NaokiB4U

Ashamed to say, I mash them when Im losing. If i'm getting wrecked on wakeup (I use Asuka, not much I can do) I tend to mash launcher if I see them just walking up crouching anything. I get them about 70% of the time, then again im only at like 4500 points or so so the skill level isn't that high. I'm getting better at not mashing it but strategically placing it as some of the more advanced players tend to use this miraculous move called downback when low jabbing or kicking.

Thancruz

flyingcloud11, post: 7467455, member: 49404 wrote:

You guys are just using raw launchers....damn where have you all been. Living under a rock I suppose lol

Not many use it as a bigger part of their overall strategy though(including myself lol). That's why I'm discussing it now, so it can be the norm where raw launcher plays a bigger role.

-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums

Songi

At higher levels the raw launcher is an even more invaluable tool. Don't sleep on it people.

The Lone Dragon

Like I said in the other thread, use it as early as possible in the fight to minimze potential punishment, while still sending the message that you will punish mindless low mashing.

Also, some characters like Christie have launchers that are a little tricky to punish on block.

So...use them.

Intuitive2011

Thancruz, post: 7467368, member: 22788 wrote:

Yes they are very risky, I have had a few raw launcher blunders myself. But that is why I use parry as an example, while risky, it adds to another layer of depth in the mind game of how you train your opponent. Like how you say raw launchers are real good against Cody and Chun, because you will see a Cody using low short, Chun low short, even Rufus low short in most of their matches, launcher can make them think twice.

I know the exact feeling, lol. Makes me want to pick up Jin, really. At least I could make it safe. :D

Just to note, if you observe your opponents patterns, launchers can play a very big part in the match. And, if you have the reaction to match it, it really can turn matches in your favour. As I say, you should try to spot your opponents tendencies and then their character specific options. Characters with reversals can pose an issue, but that's just apart of the guessing game.

SUPARNOVAX

Surely there has to be an option select with it.

Vulcan Hades

Yeah, raw launcher is very risky. So what? DPs are the same risk.

And just like you can DP xx tag cancel, you can Launcher xx tag cancel with some characters and remain safe enough due to the pushback on block or the blockstun in Jin's case.

There's this misconception that a lot of people have that something -6 or -12 is always full combo punishable. But reality is your opponent can only punish what is within his pokes/special moves reach. And in this game, the way tag canceling works is: your running partner can cancel his run as soon as he gets to where the leaving character is. So even if some special move or raw launcher is super unsafe on block xx switch, you can still turn that -20 situation into a +2 situation by canceling the run early. (this is something I feel that a lot of players don't quite understand yet but is so abusable with some characters/teams).

Also, raw Launcher doesn't only counter lows like some people seem to believe. It counters any special mid hitting crouching attacks as well. So c.jab mashing and c.strong frame traps also die to a raw launcher.

Ever since I started using raw launchers defensively and offensively, my game has improved a lot I feel. Launcher is such a mindfuck and once people start respecting it, it gets even better. :)

roknin

Vulcan Hades, post: 7468247, member: 26486 wrote:

Also, raw Launcher doesn't only counter lows like some people seem to believe. It counters any special mid hitting crouching attacks as well. So c.jab mashing and c.strong frame traps also die to raw launcher.

Ever since I started using raw launchers defensively and offensively, my game has improved a lot I feel. Launcher is such a mindfuck and once people start respecting it, it's gets even better. :)

Agreed. If I even sniff a gap in pressure or that my opponent is very happy with lows, I try to launch them as often as possible, firstly for the free switch if I need it and then for the much lower damage scaling. My problem is distinguishing from when I'm actually making a read, and just putting out an educated guess.

I want - no need! - to get my ability to use it to the level where t really is a mind-fuck and ruins entire game plans. There isn't too many things that feel better than when you're being pressured with a bleeding character, and you know that cr.mk or cr.hk or (etc.) is coming... and you not only punish them for it, but then get to bring out the fresh character as well.

thecapsaicinkid

Intuitive2011, post: 7467301, member: 66101 wrote:

Really, I'm OK with those kinds of odds. I just want my opponent to respect the wakeup game instead of resorting too mashing.

Mashing on wakeup loses to pretty much everything though, much safer things than a launcher.

I agree with using it early to make your opponent nervous in the same way people DP through block strings early to send a message. I guess in general I don't deliberately put myself in a 50/50 situation of one of us getting a combo unless I'm pretty sure.

Sh!nStarw!n

Most of the time I hit people with raw launcher is after a jump in or cross up. People tend to go for lows after jumping so ill hit raw launcher if I notice a pattern.

Also it's great tool to do the gootecks with haha.

BadIntent

I LOVE when people whiff raw launchers against me.

MuayGio

Vulcan Hades, post: 7468247, member: 26486 wrote:

Yeah, raw launcher is very risky. So what? DPs are the same risk.

And just like you can DP xx tag cancel, you can Launcher xx tag cancel with some characters and remain safe enough due to the pushback on block or the blockstun in Jin's case.

There's this misconception that a lot of people have that something -6 or -12 is always full combo punishable. But reality is your opponent can only punish what is within his pokes/special moves reach. And in this game, the way tag canceling works is: your running partner can cancel his run as soon as gets to where the leaving character is. So even if some special move or raw launcher is super unsafe on block xx switch, you can still turn that -20 situation into a +2 situation by canceling the run early. (this is something I feel that a lot of players don't quite understand yet but is so abusable with some characters/teams).

Also, raw Launcher doesn't only counter lows like some people seem to believe. It counters any special mid hitting crouching attacks as well. So c.jab mashing and c.strong frame traps also die to raw launcher.

Ever since I started using raw launchers defensively and offensively, my game has improved a lot I feel. Launcher is such a mindfuck and once people start respecting it, it gets even better. :)

Every single thing you said is right. /thread.

Thancruz

thank you all for the good discussion, hopefully it doesn't stop here though lol :) .

Hertog

So it beats every crouching move?Even things like Guile cr. hp?

ukwoodyxD

it beats alisa's DP, much to my sadness

Songi

Hertog, post: 7471763, member: 75027 wrote:

So it beats every crouching move?Even things like Guile cr. hp?

Yes, even crouching moves that hit high it will outright beat. LOL my friend was pretty sad when I beat his law's Cr. HP even though it clearly hits high.

ukwoodyxD, post: 7481990, member: 22145 wrote:

it beats alisa's DP, much to my sadness

RisoN90

remember this mates?












yea, i knew it

XthAtGAm3RGuYX

Too much risk to me. A whiffed raw launcher has about as many recovery frames as your average whiffed ultra in AE. Though I don't feel like lookng up the frames so I'm not gonna throw out exact numbers. But whenever I see a fucked up launcher, it reminds me of when somebody completely misses Siberian Blizzard with Zangief. You just got fuckin DAYS to punish it.

roknin

XthAtGAm3RGuYX, post: 7485268, member: 55729 wrote:

Too much risk to me. A whiffed raw launcher has about as many recovery frames as your average whiffed ultra in AE. Though I don't feel like lookng up the frames so I'm not gonna throw out exact numbers. But whenever I see a fucked up launcher, it reminds me of when somebody completely misses Siberian Blizzard with Zangief. You just got fuckin DAYS to punish it.

True, it's pretty risky. Best used when you really get a good feeling for your opponent's habits during pressure, or when you can actually react to the low (ie.,someone actually does Guile's cr.HK and you block the first hit, that's like a free raw launcher lol). Free tag, minimal scaling, good damage.

It's not too far off from low parry in Tekken (aside from of course being even more unsafe) - you know they like to do a certain low, low parry it and punish. You'll make 'em more honest with that - people think twice after getting hit like that once, myself included lol.

Intuitive2011

This thread deserves more activity!

In my experience, here's a list of characters who launcher works wonders on. Note, GET A GOOD READ ON YOUR OPPONENT, don't just throw it out there. But, if you've realised they're mashing crouching attacks, it wouldn't hurt to press HK/HP.

Chun Li, Jin, Kazuya, and Cody. Yes, the list is small, but I know you guys have come up against people who crouch teched on their wake up, don't let them do it!

Don't be afraid to try it against shotos either, especially Ryus who like to frame trap with Cr.Mp.

Thancruz

Intuitive2011, post: 7529628, member: 66101 wrote:

This thread deserves more activity!

In my experience, here's a list of characters who launcher works wonders on. Note, GET A GOOD READ ON YOUR OPPONENT, don't just throw it out there. But, if you've realised they're mashing crouching attacks, it wouldn't hurt to press HK/HP.

Chun Li, Jin, Kazuya, and Cody. Yes, the list is small, but I know you guys have come up against people who crouch teched on their wake up, don't let them do it!

Don't be afraid to try it against shotos either, especially Ryus who like to frame trap with Cr.Mp.

exactly, but also the characters you listed seem to have a very linear fighting pattern(flowchart) that most players follow. Maybe its on a match up basis.

Intuitive2011

Thancruz, post: 7529728, member: 22788 wrote:

exactly, but also the characters you listed seem to have a very linear fighting pattern(flowchart) that most players follow. Maybe its on a match up basis.

I do agree with you, people that play these characters tend to flowchart, but I don't believe that should be allowed to happen, Perhaps, people need to implement OS's into their games. I still feel launcher will play a massive part in this games Oki.

SUPARNOVAX

Raw launcher should be changing the game. Hell, people I'm playing online are starting to use it more and the people I use it on started to use it back on me later in the rounds. So yeah, leveling up.