Hacking the ST rom...

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Comments

  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    If you want to hack the other SF games, more power to you. You'll learn a lot, in between spells of feeling determined and clueless.

    As far as palette hacking, simply adjusting the brightness of color values just isn't good enough for me. I'm trying to get the FM-Towns SSFII stuff working to play with the color edit mode, translating those values back to hex, and trying to find them by digging through the ROMs.

    If someone knows a faster way, by all means, please share.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    If you want to hack the other SF games, more power to you. You'll learn a lot, in between spells of feeling determined and clueless.

    As far as palette hacking, simply adjusting the brightness of color values just isn't good enough for me. I'm trying to get the FM-Towns SSFII stuff working to play with the color edit mode, translating those values back to hex, and trying to find them by digging through the ROMs.

    If someone knows a faster way, by all means, please share.
    You can edit the colors too it's just an added variable in the ram.

    edit:
    The first color is the black color usually it has the value 1 on all 3 color channels. On the rom it will appear as 1101 if you're looking at it through a hex editor, while in the ram it would appear as F111.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Would it be any more difficult to hack the alpha 2 rom? I have always wanted to change some things in that game
    I wouldn't say it's harder just there is differences in the data.
    f93Mu.png
    QryJc.png

    I'm more into removing background objects to get rid of the stage lag on CCs than editing.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    The thing is, I don't even know where to start. Do you know of any hex editing tutorials or something? And then knowledge of what changes what in A2 would be cool too, but don't worry about if you don't want to take the time
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    So this is a lot of fun...

    Today alone, I was able to play with N.Cammy's backfists to make them slightly faster (six frames overall), and it feels just right. O.Cammy's are still slower as before, but the first hit connects as an overhead, so if you land it deep, your opponent has to block high or eat both hits. O.Cammy also got a priority buff on her forward and roundhouse Cannon Drills (since hers are slower than N.Cammy's), and like in CvS2 (and N.Boxer's low rushes), they have to be blocked low or you get a sweep knockdown. It makes O.Cammy slightly slower overall than N.Cammy, but she has a bit more priority on her aerial normals and drills, and now has a refreshing sort of mixup game that's good for her, yet hard to really abuse.

    Has anyone else tooled around with this at all?
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    So this is a lot of fun...



    Has anyone else tooled around with this at all?
    Honestly I take ST for what it is, I doubt we could end up with an "official" ST remix, I would start by making a rule of 2 buffs per character as the limit.
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Honestly I take ST for what it is, I doubt we could end up with an "official" ST remix, I would start by making a rule of 2 buffs per character as the limit.

    BUFFS per character? Good Lord, I don't think any of the top tiers need any buffs whatsoever.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Honestly I take ST for what it is, I doubt we could end up with an "official" ST remix, I would start by making a rule of 2 buffs per character as the limit.
    The number of buffs is unrelated to how much more powerful a character is.

    What is important is the relevance of those buffs. For example, Guile could have 1 frame startup removed from all of his normals, which would be many different buffs, but still be less buffed than deejay, who now has 100% invincible max outs
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    BUFFS per character? Good Lord, I don't think any of the top tiers need any buffs whatsoever.
    as the limit I meant u can either give a char 0, 1 or 2 buffs, its up to the community what chars would get the max or minimum amount of buffs, just look what happened with HDR Gief (got like 9 buffs)
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    as the limit I meant u can either give a char 0, 1 or 2 buffs, its up to the community what chars would get the max or minimum amount of buffs, just look what happened with HDR Gief (got like 9 buffs)

    Makes sense. Baby steps seem to be the way to go with changes like this, especially since even minor changes can lead to major shifts in how certain matchups are approached.
    The number of buffs is unrelated to how much more powerful a character is.

    What is important is the relevance of those buffs. For example, Guile could have 1 frame startup removed from all of his normals, which would be many different buffs, but still be less buffed than deejay, who now has 100% invincible max outs

    What do you mean by invincible max outs? You mean how large the hit box is on it? Or how it's high enough so you can't tatsu over them?
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    I meant no hittable box at all, during startup, active or recovery.

    Another easy real world example is Ryu's fake fireball. Ryu only got one buff, one change, but many people complain that it is way overpowered and makes ryu way too good. Bison got a whole bunch of buffs, but didn't really move anywhere in the tier list, and was not played successfully in hdr's lifetime, except the last hdr tournament ever.

    Again, just to repeat for emphasis, what matters is not the number of buffs. Gief did get a lot, but most don't affect anything in his matchups, or were a change to help a specific matchup with no real relevance to others. Significance and Relevance are the two most important things, just limiting yourself to a flat number is nonsense
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Thing is, everyone with half a brain who's into this game would know that a completely invincible Max-Out would be way too powerful.

    Ryu's fake fireball wasn't adjusted properly for the entire cast. Any benefit he gets against Dhalsim is overshadowed by the fact that it severely affects the matches against characters who already had a hard time with fireballs. It's a great example of how changes should be weighed against the entire cast, and not made to just shore up a weakness against one character.

    You're dead-on about significance and relevance, and (not) basing ideas off of arbitrary numbers of changes. The important thing is to consider the changes holistically, really weigh them out, and to test them thoroughly.

    The nice part now is that we can take ideas beyond the theory fighter stage and actually play with them. Any takers?
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Took me 30 mins and I still made few noticeable errors.
    2wRNv.png

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    hey can you guys add this move for Hawk please? Thanks a bunch


    hawknewmove.jpg
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Looks like a Sako tick to me; it's pretty inescapable.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    are those dudes?
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • ultracomboultracombo Weakest Loser Joined: Posts: 741
    picture
    Is there a way to keep the palletes constantly changing?
    "If ultracombo misses a low roundhouse, he is likely to continue doing it." - TheMuffinMan
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    hey can you guys add this move for Hawk please? Thanks a bunch

    Looks more like what Honda does to Hawk to me.
    Roald Dhalsim
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Is there a way to keep the palletes constantly changing?
    Finding the location in the rom which I told you the format for that too. Or you mean set up a lua script that constantly changes the colors to make it look like what programmers used to do on old games as an acid trip mode?

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    acid trip, thats how UC rolls
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    On Blanka's stage, there's a hash mark at the far right, way up at the roof of the hut, just before and above the big fish on the wall. Any idea what it's marking...?
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    On Blanka's stage, there's a hash mark at the far right, way up at the roof of the hut, just before and above the big fish on the wall. Any idea what it's marking...?
    Where is it? BTW, I had never noticed they changed where the fish was, from WW to ST. It was probably at SSF2, that they did it. The fish used to be to the left, and the hut was not mirrored or whatever: you could only see the left side of it. I also noticed some P and V signs, which I supposed were to be used as round-win markers, where - most likely - P would stand for "perfect". I've also seen where B2SPD found the "hidden" flame images that can not be seen in the recovery of his Fierce SRK. There's lots of trash in the ROM.
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    Where is it? BTW, I had never noticed they changed where the fish was, from WW to ST. It was probably at SSF2, that they did it. The fish used to be to the left, and the hut was not mirrored or whatever: you could only see the left side of it. I also noticed some P and V signs, which I supposed were to be used as round-win markers, where - most likely - P would stand for "perfect". I've also seen where B2SPD found the "hidden" flame images that can not be seen in the recovery of his Fierce SRK. There's lots of trash in the ROM.
    can u share those trash pics to the rest of us? maybe as some Miscellaneous?
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    can u share those trash pics to the rest of us? maybe as some Miscellaneous?
    I can. But there's some issue with getting appropriate pics: the game has several possible palette-swaps for every image. Thus, after getting to each image, finding the correct combination can take quite some time. A much easier alternative would be that I post the addresses which you have to reach from the menus. There are 4 menu options in "8 CHARACTER", which are
    1. OBJECT
    2. SCROLL1
    3. SCROLL2
    4. SCROLL3
    Each has several images for playable characters, NPCs, scenarios, menus, etc. For instance, there's one of the pics of a developer around 45D0 in the OBJECT menu. There, stage=06 and color=10 show the surrounding Ryu images with the color which is used for Ken - they just paste Ken's hear over them. With stage=07 and color=1E, you get WW/Jab-SSF2/ST-old Ryu's colors. But, with like 5 minutes of searching, I could not find a combination that shows that developer's picture in color.

    Edit: some flags and NPC faces are around 7EC0. WW's 2P cursor image (which overrides 1P, unlike CE and onward, which can both be seen while selecting the same character) is around 8360, and Ken's SSF2/ST SRK flames are around E790. Stage=19, color=0F shows these in color, but I ain't sure it's the correct combination.

    Edit: the round icons I talked about are around C750.
  • felinekifelineki Joined: Posts: 981
    While we're on the subject of unused stuff in the ROM, there seem to be quite a few graphics intended for a networked cabinet tournament variant much like regular SSF2 had. After all the character sprites that were newly added for ST, you can see messages like "Ranking", "Results", lots of big numbers, a "The League Battle" subtitle, and even what appears to be a short explanation of the tournament rules in Japanese.
    "The Hammer Bros. Suit was more broken than O. Sagat, AHVB, and CotA Magneto put together." -specs

    "I always thought that O. Sagat, AHVB, and CotA Magneto were just aspects of the Hammer Bros. Suit, broken down in several pieces in order to keep the universe from breaking." -Wellman
  • The Furious OneThe Furious One Fluent in 3 languages Engrish, Sarcasm & Profanity Joined: Posts: 20,778
    Yeah, maybe, but since this hack is not meant to be serious, I mean, it won't replace original ST in any way, I think it would be nice to have a Fei being able to cancel almost any normal while having chicken wing and super at his disposal. In ST my main is o.Fei, mainly for all the cancelables he has (ton of links that end in Rekkas), adding super, chicken and throw softening is my idea of a perfect Fei.

    Screw that, if you are going to bother you may aswell do the best job you can. I say go for broke. Don't turn it into HDRR, ST is 90% perfect as it is.

    Buff Dictator's devil reverse (already done)
    Nerf balrog's head butt + throw loop
    Nerf Chun Li's throw
    Slightly buff E.Honda's super
    Quicker recovery on Fei's light kick chicken wing
    Nerf Honda's command grab
    Nerf Claw's wall dive
    Nerf Dhalsim's throw loop
    Delete O.sagat...
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    While we're on the subject of unused stuff in the ROM, there seem to be quite a few graphics intended for a networked cabinet tournament variant much like regular SSF2 had. After all the character sprites that were newly added for ST, you can see messages like "Ranking", "Results", lots of big numbers, a "The League Battle" subtitle, and even what appears to be a short explanation of the tournament rules in Japanese.

    I already posted a lot of that. Most of the programming is still there for it.
    Edit: More Pictures of it
    H36ZG.png
    zmgBK.png

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    Just wondering if the only change was the fei long n cammy motions were changed to a qcf, or dp motion, u know his weird chicken wing motion for example, would this change make fei n cammy going up in tiers? I can see cammy going trough FBs on reaction, same goes with fei, unlike messing up the special n eating the projectile
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Anything that wouldn't require specials to end in some up-direction, however it happens, would benefit them, though I doubt that alone will send any characters skyrocketing in tier placement. Sirlin used quarter-circles; others have suggested half-circles so that the input time wouldn't really change. So long as they couldn't accidentally jump at the end of the motion, it's all good.

    Thing is, who here actually knows how to change either command motions, or what is assigned to a given input?
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Even though HDR players hate to admit it but it did sky rocket Gief's tier placement by having SPD a half circle. As for the motions you have to learn to use mame's debugger. Figure out what writes it in the memory you have the memory locations how to do the moves from a lua script Pasky made.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Even though HDR players hate to admit it but it did sky rocket Gief's tier placement by having SPD a half circle.

    "sky rocket"? No. Not even remotely. People can say it a thousand more times, and it still won't make this true. Of all of the changes he received, this one is the least responsible for any possible movement in the tiers he had in HDR. It helps newer players compete faster and feel less frustrated when they accidentally jump instead of getting an SPD. Vets don't worry about it because they can hit it nearly every time due to the healthy number of pre-jump frames (and plenty of practice).

    Sure, once in a great while, you'll even see the greats screw it up. It's obvious, because they end up in the air after a tick or the like. With the new motion, it's still possible to screw up; you just don't usually notice as obviously. Even if that new motion helps even the best go from like a 95% success rate to a 97%, it still doesn't change how he uses it in a match.

    Better lariats, hops, normals, running grabs, and banishing flat...those might change where he stands. Not the new SPD motion.
    As for the motions you have to learn to use mame's debugger. Figure out what writes it in the memory you have the memory locations how to do the moves from a lua script Pasky made.

    Been working with the MAME debugger and hex-editing from scratch for around a month now. Learned plenty, with much more to follow. I know I can dig through it and figure it out, as you've pointed out, but it would be an immense time-saver if someone who had worked it before had that knowledge to share.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Been working with the MAME debugger and hex-editing from scratch for around a month now. Learned plenty, with much more to follow. I know I can dig through it and figure it out, as you've pointed out, but it would be an immense time-saver if someone who had worked it before had that knowledge to share.

    You have to put in the time for something you want. The thing is i haven't touched ST hacking wise till earlier to get more of those Tournament Battle screen shots.

    I've been messing with Vsav



    And making a gif showing off the priority engine in 3s.
    5IC1X.gif

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • felinekifelineki Joined: Posts: 981
    So I took a closer look at those tournament rules in ST's graphics, and it seems to describe a round robin-style tournament. Which is interesting, because the Tournament Battle variant of SSF2 used a single elimination format.
    "The Hammer Bros. Suit was more broken than O. Sagat, AHVB, and CotA Magneto put together." -specs

    "I always thought that O. Sagat, AHVB, and CotA Magneto were just aspects of the Hammer Bros. Suit, broken down in several pieces in order to keep the universe from breaking." -Wellman
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    So I took a closer look at those tournament rules in ST's graphics, and it seems to describe a round robin-style tournament. Which is interesting, because the Tournament Battle variant of SSF2 used a single elimination format.

    Jedpossum posted an image of a bracket and it looks single elimination...

    Looks very similar to tournament battle for ssf2 snes. Which also had a battle to settle all ties in a bracket, so it isnt really pure single elimination
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    So breaking out my snes cartridge now (times like his im so happy i have 2 rj 45s for my snes so i can use my sticks). theres a preliminary round, then theres a losers bracket ( not really how we think of it, like i said, its to settle ties) then semi finals, (8 players per tourney, empty spaces are filled by cpus) then a match to decide 3rd place, 5th place and 7th place then finally, finals... Each mstch is not best of 3 but best of 1.

    I dont know how well this mirrors arcade ssf2(was this tourney mode released...?) or arcade ST tourney which was never released but it may provide sone insight
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • felinekifelineki Joined: Posts: 981
    Jedpossum posted an image of a bracket and it looks single elimination...
    The screenshots he's posted are of the leftover SSF2 tournament battle mode. What I'm referring to are graphics that were added in ST, and seem to be intended for a new tournament mode that was planned but never actually made.
    "The Hammer Bros. Suit was more broken than O. Sagat, AHVB, and CotA Magneto put together." -specs

    "I always thought that O. Sagat, AHVB, and CotA Magneto were just aspects of the Hammer Bros. Suit, broken down in several pieces in order to keep the universe from breaking." -Wellman
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    felineki is not going crazy. I saw some crosses and circles which were to be used in this ST mode while browsing through the game's character menus. There were also images for the tables where they would be used.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Is there anything usable in that tournament mode data? There was mention of random versus stages before; that would be really nice.

    We've had a lot of good luck while playing with this regarding character tweaks. If anyone wants to see what I mean, shoot me a PM. Still very early in messing around and learning some nuances of the game's engine.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Has anyone used PALMOD or other palette-editing tools to mess with ST?

    I'm going to mess around and see if I can give Akuma more than two colors...

    EDIT: Not without screwing up the game (or reworking the code to allow him to actually have more colors, which would take much more work).

    EDIT 2: A few palette mods:

    Bricktator

    Mango Bison

    Shin Akuma

    Note that much more work needs to be done to complete any palette swaps, since ST uses separate sprites for certain parts of moves. For example, any move that has "psycho power" of Dic's, or Akuma's teleport, which must all be manually changed as well.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    If anyone wants to mess around with what I've been tinkering around with, either on your own or over GGPO, shoot me a PM. I don't have much more I can milk out of this thing without much more time and knowledge of how to really mess with the debugger.
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