Hacking the ST rom...

1235716

Comments

  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Mostly, the old cast have been boosted. Plenty of bug fixes have been made to things like weird hitboxes, oddball recovery times, and so on.

    For example, O.Fei's hurtboxes don't project when he recovers from rekkas, and either version of Chun Li loses those extra recovery frames on roundhouse ground SBK. O.Boxer's level 1 and 2 TAPs act just like they did in HF, O.Sim has a faster teleport, and O.Cammy's drills and SBFs have great mix-ups for blocking.

    I tried to keep the changes as subtle as possible; with this build, no input changes have occurred, and the entire cast is fun and potent. If anyone would like to have fun and help, I'd really appreciate it.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    that mango bison is awesome.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    meh
    6uPmr.png

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • dogberrydogberry l33t OG Sagat tactics Joined: Posts: 358
    If damage on supers were lowered and invincibility on them were completely removed (with one to two exceptions), and a few tweaks for balance, i don't see why people wouldn't give an ST hack a shot at competitive play status. Losing the invincible supers and the ridiculous damage from them would make the gameplay much more interesting than it already is.
  • AquasharkAquashark Mekong Delta AirRaid Joined: Posts: 1,546
    can you hack Alpha2 rom as well?

    1. nerf Alpha Counter damage to 30%-50% of what it is in vanilla A2
    2. Alpha Counters cannot kill
    3. nerf Rose punch AC (add scaling to the followup combo?)

    4. make CC activation HP+HK
    5. add more scaling to CCs (scale drastically after 40% damage)
    6. possibly remove Valle CCs

    done! possibly the best game ever :D
    hello friends, my name is Drago Umeharevich from CrossCounter Balkans
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    can you hack Alpha2 rom as well?
    Maybe

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    If damage on supers were lowered and invincibility on them were completely removed (with one to two exceptions), and a few tweaks for balance, i don't see why people wouldn't give an ST hack a shot at competitive play status. Losing the invincible supers and the ridiculous damage from them would make the gameplay much more interesting than it already is.

    don't get brain washed by people saying super's are dumb.
    tomo and jeff don't play ST enough to know the whole story.
    the only problematic super is definitely rog's and maybe ryu/chun's need a little nurf.

    st is not perfect but saying something it isn't is just wrong.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    Nerfing rogs super to have longer startup, or having less invulnerabillity, or more recovery, do less damage etc are possibilities that are very easy to hack, unless there are something special/hardcoded about it. I have no idea how to remove chun's walking super though, since i pretty much only know how to hack the frame and hitbox data.
    But yeah, not all supers are broken. Dic for example needs that invincibility on his super, removing it would almost turn dic to a low tier.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • dogberrydogberry l33t OG Sagat tactics Joined: Posts: 358
    Please explain to me how having moves that do 35 to 50% damage and have enough invincibility to go through most normals and special moves encourages and rewards smart play. So instead of making as few mistakes as you can, if you're losing you still have a shot at coming back because of that super. Instead of trying not to let gief pin you down in the corner if you're dictator, you can still get out because you have that invincible escape move. And if i were zangief, i did all that work to push you into the corner and put myself into a position where i have a good shot at winning the round, but once he gets super dictator needs just one good guess and he escapes. And if i'm throwing out a projectile or a normal just to try to keep you away from where you want to be, i run the risk of eating 50% damage just for doing something i should be trying to do.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    The difference between ST supers and shit like SFIV's ultras is that dictator either has meter cause gief was playing poorly, or sacrificed health with mulitple timed reversals to build that meter to escape.

    You don't get meter for getting hit in this game, so most of the time, that super is only a problem if you let them build it up.

    Really though, most supers in this game aren't that good.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Yeah Supers are fine in ST. I wouldn't even nerf Chun's Super (except for damage), and Rog's Super is fine too as well as Ryu. The other good thing is that you don't carry over meter into the 2nd round, it starts out the same, so now you have no excuse for keeping the other player from building meter.
  • othartheomothartheom recovering hyou bal Joined: Posts: 116
    i would like a copy of this. i personally think buffs are the way to go instead of nerfs
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I agree with Coth that most supers are that good - if at all. But some are, and they are a problem.

    Ryu's super completely changes the match-ups where his projectiles are good. I believe it is clear that it does more damage than it should. Rog's supers (he has two) do way too much damage, are way too hard to bait, wait too hard to punish if you bait them (sometimes they even bug in the corner so that you cannot punish them), block-safe against most characters, give him a free "welcome back to the corner" card, are very hard to reverse and charge way too fast in virtually all match-ups but against Dhalsim and O.Sagat. It is obviously not fine, being that he wins most match-ups without the supers, anyway.

    I consider Ryu's super to be a problem on another aspect: it does not really help him much in match-ups he already gets owned. O.Sagat takes a hit and blocks the rest 90% of the time. Rog has his invulnerable headbutts already, and his super - before Ryu gets his, almost always. Dhalsim usually has a big life lead and several tools to bait Ryu's super, if he can avoid getting knocked down. Top tier aside, I believe he only really needs the super against Chun and O.Hawk. If Rog, O.Sagat, Claw and Dhalsim were removed, Ryu and Chun would be at the top, hands down.

    I also love ST, else I wouldn't have spend so much time getting frame data, adding stuff to the Wiki, playing on GGPO and even traveling to gatherings and tournaments. It's leagues ahead of any other games being played now. I'm just not a SF4 scrub who's born like 3 days ago and believes his game is good cos it has a player base. I have to agree that supers are chances to obtain a lot of damage out of a single guess. Some could even be OS'ed in the form of a throw-super non-mixup (since it's an OS). And due to SF2's long throw range, it is also not very hard to to throw-super mix-ups.

    I believed nerfed ST characters + SSF2 + slightly increased speed (not US3/JPN4) would make an awesome game. Very similar to what ST already is. No more CPS-1-chains, no Gief's OS poke-SPDs, no CE Bison, etc.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Ryu's and rog's supers are probably the most problematic supers in the game given how good they were made.

    Honestly, chun should just lose the upkicks juggle afterwards because that damage is ridiculous.

    I do kinda think that grapple supers should be able to be wasted.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    Yeah, Gief's super should be even more mediocre than it already is.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • dogberrydogberry l33t OG Sagat tactics Joined: Posts: 358
    If super damage was toned down overall (with the exceptions of hawk and gief) to around maximum 25% damage (no more than say, getting hit by one of CE sagat's uppercuts) and you take out the invincible frames, you'd eliminate the complaints about high damage, using super as a comeback tool, dumb way of escaping traps/getting past pokes, fireballs, whatever.

    But if you left all other super properties intact many of the best supers would still be very good. Ryu super would still be excellent. He would still have an advantage in fireball battles, mid-range footsie poke games etc. Most of the things that make that super an excellent weapon in his matchups would still be intact. If you changed boxer's super the same way, it would still be a very good super because of its range and it being safe on block. Dhalsim's super would still be good. Same with claw super.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Yeah, Gief's super should be even more mediocre than it already is.

    Grapplers already get damage on block so I don't think it really matters.

    Honstly I was thinking more claw then hawk/gief when I said that.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    There would be no reason to use supers at all if they were so toned down.

    As they are, they add a dynamic to the game that didn't exist without them. The fact that players have to rethink strategies over the course of a match works wonderfully for the game. Sure, a few are better than the others, but that doesn't mean they should all be relegated to obsolescence. In many cases, they give options to characters who really need them, instead of allowing matches to play out similarly more often.

    I would love to just see an option to play with supers or not, and to see some of the more overpowered ones get toned down, as many have pointed out. I know many people aren't fans of HDR overall, but I do feel one of the things Sirlin got right overall was the balance of supers. Boxer's could still stand to have a bit more recovery added to the end or something, and Chun's got weakened a bit too much, but the slight damage reductions and subtle tweaks were better than anything really radical. Completely removing invincibility and reducing damage to around 25% would be way, way too much.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Kinda funny the Hyper Fighting people went on to make SFEX nothing beats canceling supers with supers and more supers.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    snip
    For sure, removing invulnerability would make them useless. They also should have more damage than powerfull specials. The issue is range, damage, distance travelled, recovery, and "comboabillity". A plain comparison of Rog's and Dee Jay's super should make it very clear. Some supers remove too many options from the enemy, offline.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    bottom line, super turbo is about super. that's what differentiates it from the previous sf2

    if you take super out of this game, you might as well don't play it, like tomo and jeff. and they are entitled to their opinion (although they thought the whole system is broken even though only rog's super is poorly designed).

    people complained about sf4's ultra, but for me, it's not what make it boring for me. it's the slow peace, joke AA specials, tech throws and all normal trades that turned me off. i'll gladly move on to the next generation of street fighter with super ultra omega if they keep the basic sf2 formula.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    bottom line, super turbo is about super. that's what differentiates it from the previous sf2

    if you take super out of this game, you might as well don't play it, like tomo and jeff. and they are entitled to their opinion (although they thought the whole system is broken even though only rog's super is poorly designed).

    people complained about sf4's ultra, but for me, it's not what make it boring for me. it's the slow peace, joke AA specials, tech throws and all normal trades that turned me off. i'll gladly move on to the next generation of street fighter with super ultra omega if they keep the basic sf2 formula.
    Well, did they complain about Blanka's super? Few supers are actually usefull for punishing baited normals, as they need some sort of start-up to give the enemy time to stick something out. I can think of Ryu, Boxer, Dictator and Dee Jay. Sagat too, but it is unsafe on block, and Fei's is good too, but also often unsafe. Claw's super is only reall good cos of wall dive being good in the first place.

    SF4 is yet another SF version that's just about hit-confirms and cross-ups. They just managed to make it even worse by adding a universal anti-properly-spaced-normal-move tool (focus attack), messing up with the whole moveset from SF2 (everything: hitboxes, start-up, recoveries), adding anti-projectile tools all around the game. Every character has a completely invulnerable move they can ue on reaction against projectiles. The game is shit.

    Anti-airs sucking is just a side-effect from what they did to the SF2 moveset. It is a result of a whole team of developpers who did not have any idea of what SF was about. I've seen what people who have no idea what game they are working with do in the Diablo II 1.10 patch, years ago. They simply did not understand a thing about 100% of the game. It's not SF, Fatal Fury Special is 5 times more a SF game that SF4 is. The EX series sucked, mostly due to the hit-confirm fest and excels, but at least it played like SF.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Alpha has more hit confirms especially alpha 3 then what EX had also Excels were only in Ex2.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    I'm fine with nerfing super damage to 25-30% no I don't think chuns super is too weak in HDR I think it's still fine. Just not as fun since it's harder to / impossible to connect upkicks.

    As for the properties... I think some should be changed (feis should get invincibility, claw's should At LEAST whiff if not use a meter.

    I like the idea of having the match change around super (i mention to people all the time I love the chun v boxer matchup for this reason). But it shouldn't almost automatically win you the game for landing It ONCE by pure luck (again, chun/boxer)
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Um lol. I'm pretty sure fei is completely invincible till right at the end?

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Yes, Fei's super is completely invulnerable until his last punch swings out, where his recovery is fairly brief.
  • JED07JED07 Sleeping on the floor with the Rats Joined: Posts: 650
    don't get brain washed by people saying super's are dumb.
    tomo and jeff don't play ST enough to know the whole story.
    the only problematic super is definitely rog's and maybe ryu/chun's need a little nurf.

    st is not perfect but saying something it isn't is just wrong.

    We're not brainwashing nobody. We have a perfectly logical and reasonable position about it, and I'm betting so did Tomo and Jeff.

    Why not improve on something already good?

    I said it once and I'll say it again, I may not have liked Sirlin's changes but I still say props to him for giving the finger to the haters and daring to change ST.
    The difference between ST supers and shit like SFIV's ultras is that dictator either has meter cause gief was playing poorly, or sacrificed health with mulitple timed reversals to build that meter to escape.

    You don't get meter for getting hit in this game, so most of the time, that super is only a problem if you let them build it up.

    Really though, most supers in this game aren't that good.

    Your right most aren't, but they are still a poor mechanic and using them as justification to counter another poor mechanic like tic command grab (yup I said it) is stupid.
    i would like a copy of this. i personally think buffs are the way to go instead of nerfs

    God no. You really want Boxer, Claw, Sim and O. Gat to keep all that OP shit that they have?

    Besides, Sirlin already tried to balance around buffs, it doesn't work.
    I agree with Coth that most supers are that good - if at all. But some are, and they are a problem.
    There would be no reason to use supers at all if they were so toned down.

    As they are, they add a dynamic to the game that didn't exist without them. The fact that players have to rethink strategies over the course of a match works wonderfully for the game. Sure, a few are better than the others, but that doesn't mean they should all be relegated to obsolescence. In many cases, they give options to characters who really need them, instead of allowing matches to play out similarly more often.

    Supers change the course of a match in a bad way. By the time your done nerfing them so that they aren't as stupid anymore, you remove the point of them existing. Another words, they are a bad mechanic.

    Instead of getting lucky/comboing into super/chip damage with super/escaping/etc. why don't you take them out and finish the match properly and see who wins?

    Using super as an escape tool to justify tic command grab is again no reason to keep them. It only means there's something wrong with tic command grab.
    Kinda funny the Hyper Fighting people went on to make SFEX nothing beats canceling supers with supers and more supers.

    That's cuz Capcom doesn't know jack shit, I REPEAT, Capcom doesn't and never did know shit about fighting game balancing. They got lucky end of story. Everything that came out after Hyper and ST is one sorry abortion after another. It took me awhile to figure it out, but when you break each game down and compare to ST it's true. ST is still played today, can the same be said about any other capcom game?
    bottom line, super turbo is about super. that's what differentiates it from the previous sf2

    if you take super out of this game, you might as well don't play it, like tomo and jeff. and they are entitled to their opinion (although they thought the whole system is broken even though only rog's super is poorly designed).

    people complained about sf4's ultra, but for me, it's not what make it boring for me. it's the slow peace, joke AA specials, tech throws and all normal trades that turned me off. i'll gladly move on to the next generation of street fighter with super ultra omega if they keep the basic sf2 formula.

    No it is not about super, and is certainly not the only thing that differentiates it from the other 4 games.

    WTF, take out super and you might as well not play it, are you crazy? If Tomo and Jeff thought supers are broken then they have a point. Although I wouldn't say broken, just pointless and stupid.

    I agree with your SF4 points tho, I hate that game so much it hurts. The second day I played it this little voice in my brain core told me the truth about SF4 and I was stupid enough to try SSF4 when it came out but not long after I remembered why I hated the game.

    What a fool I was to ever believe that making SF mainstream was ever a good idea. The grass sure is greener...

    Sorry for the wall of text and quotes up the ass, but this topic needs to be discussed regardless of whether ST: the community hacked edition ever sees the light of day.

    When Ultracombo suggested that supers be removed earlier in this thread and I replied with the same idea I can assure you I had good cause to say so. Now I don't know what his reasons are but I'm going to explain mine now that Dogberry has joined the fray and this shitstorm has started again.

    I'm going to say several statements and then debunk them. You'll notice the prominence of the word: "NEEDED" in most statements.

    1. Supers are NEEDED because they are crowd pleasers and they feel good to successfully land.

    They look good at first but after the 5th viewing they get old fast. Who cares about the random passerby, they probably won't stay and appreciate the ST goodness anyway and supers as a whole look stupid. Landing supers is fun is also a silly assertion to make. Honestly every time I land a super I kinda feel like I cheated and I'm always left wondering what would have happened if I didn't get my invincibleonstartuptoomuchdamageejaculationcockstroke SUUUPAAAAAAA! They are not fun anymore because they are a shallow unnecessary mechanic period.

    2. Supers are NEEDED because they help this character counter/get around that characters bs.

    I say again this is not a legitimate reason to keep a bad shallow stupid mechanic. Think of something else instead, I know you guys are smart enough. Maybe the second characters bs is stupid too and needs to get taken out.

    Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    3. Supers are NEEDED because they change the course of a match in a good way by forcing the opponent to reevaluate his strategy.

    No they don't. Not in a good way. It makes the opponent more defensive because he risks getting run over by a bowser. Defensive equals less button pressing, slower pace, less frantic, less doing what your supposed to be doing and boring which equals bad bad bad. Yes some matchups are more defensive but that's because of the matchup, not some stupid super that punishes for one mistake for a trillion damage.

    4. Supers are NEEDED because they are hard to combo into and/or land.

    Sit down kid, your not good at video games because you spent x hours a day practicing combo setups. I'm not and never will be impressed by execution. Yes it takes hard work but that doesn't really mean your good. Outsmart top players with your combos and hard setups first and then talk. Key word there is outsmart, as in think, y'know, the main reason we play fighting games.

    5. Supers are NEEDED because they are an untouchable sacred cow of modern fighting games.

    Oh really? This actually falls under: "Don't nerf my character in the next patch because [insert generic moron assertion about how a characters attribute or move can't be nerfed or the world will end tomorrow].

    OMG THE BLASPHEMY! HOW DARE THIS NOBODY UTTER SUCH NUBBERY! AND IN MY FORUM TOO! SOMEBODY SMITE HIM!

    See this is exactly why it's so hard to balance games, if people weren't afraid to offend the crowd that uses this character or that strategy or w/e, we'd have less problems.

    Nothing is untouchable. The game will still be fun even if a mechanic that helps you win matches gets taken away and you get all salty and leave. You'll man up and get over it.

    This isn't really that much about balance and more about supers being pointless and unnecessary.

    6. Supers are NEEDED because you should be rewarded for attacking/getting hit/doing a [insert stupid subsystem like A countering/J Defending/w/e here].

    No, no you certainly should not. If you go on the offensive you are going to possibly:
    a) Do damage
    b) Apply pressure
    c) Do chip damage
    d) Probably get better position and therefore control the match more

    You want more? He wants more! Can you say: BOY FOR SALE! (Watch video at least up until that mean kid throws the snowball). What an asshole.

    The same could be said for going on the defensive.

    As for subsystems, that's another ballgame.

    A stupid ballgame btw and let any who suggest bringing parrying or w/e into SF2 be cast into the abysmal pit of torment and misery forever.

    You don't need e) which is fill up a stupid ugly looking meter that gives you access to even more offensive/defensive capabilities which are stupid and pointless because you already have a,b,c and d which is what all a fighting game needs.

    7. Supers are NEEDED because they are iconic to SF and cannot be undone.

    See number 5.

    8. Supers are NEEDED to keep the game as modern as possible and draw in the new players.

    Please die in a fire.

    Fuck the new kids. What the hell have the 09ers ever done for me?

    Seriously think about it, if you don't even play AE or Marvel3 ask yourself what fucking good ever came out of SF4 or HDR for that matter? What good ever came out of "Modernising": the SRK website, the latest SF sequel with all it's newfangled bad mechanics which have been lamented repeatedly ad nauseam in this forum or "Modernising" any other game or game genre for that matter.

    I'll tell you:

    JACK SHIT.

    Once the fad ended most of the new players left, like they do with 99% of the games they buy anyway lol.

    If we're going to change SF, or any game, let it be for us. Let it be for the die hards and the players who care about a really fun game. Not something that would appeal to the the masses, the internet and common human garbage. Yeah that's right, if you like ST you have good taste in video games. That's a fact and you can quote my mean elitist ass on that.

    We could've run all those tournaments without the new people, and frankly I'll bet that N. America mostly still does.

    9. Even if Capcom incorporates this into a new fighting game or updates ST with a new version without supers, it won't sell because the new players won't like it.

    See 8 and die in a fire etc.

    Also fuck Capcom. Before or after SF2 I don't give a fuck about anything else they made or did. We're on our own. Anything we come up with illegally or otherwise will fly under the radar because we're too small a band of rebels for them to care, kind of like how are ships are so small we're avoiding their turbo lasers.

    Again I apologize for the long post. However we need to have a mature discussion about supers. Even if nothing ever changes.

    It's time to face the facts guys, supers suck.

    If your going to reply to this post, do so with reason and do not say that supers are cool because they are FUN. Elaborate please.

    End rant.
    Will puke for ST.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    ST is still played today, can the same be said about any other capcom game?
    Vampire Savior, Vampire Hunter(Night warriors), Alpha 3, Third strike, and CvS2. They might not have a healthy scene in america but some of those scenes in this country is devoted especially Vampire Savior people.

    Also, CE is still played more than HF even if you take out china in arcades so stay close minded.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Where are these points coming from?

    ST supers aren't that big of a deal.

    Man up bro.



    Or play HF.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • dogberrydogberry l33t OG Sagat tactics Joined: Posts: 358
    Seeing how i seem to have restarted this whole debate about what supers do for ST, i'm going to try and address what others have said since i brought up the issue that altering the main properties of the supers (high damage, invincibility) is a good thing for the game.

    Let's start with jizzon:

    "there would be no reason to use supers at all if they were so toned down"

    If you think of the super moves as only the high-damage comeback mechanic that they were (my guess) designed to be, then yes, there would be no reason to use them. Part of the problem is that most supers in ST are just buffed up versions of moves they already have. They're not like the EX or ES moves in vampire savior, where having an EX or ES gives you a move you wouldn't have if you were meterless, like talbain's EX torpedo or demitri's grab ES in savior.

    An example of something like this in ST would be honda's super. It's a terrible super if you think of using it just to throw it out and hope it hits for high damage (like you can with boxer or ryu's supers). But from a design standpoint i think it's one of the better supers, because having that super meant that now you had an option to get in close that you didn't have before. Once honda gets that super the other guy has to be a lot more careful about where and when to throw fireballs.

    Now you might say that boxer's and ryu's (and all other supers with enough invincible frames to go through normals/destroy fireballs) do the same thing. But the one difference is that you can hit honda's super out of its startup (with a fireball or normal) and some normals and many specials can beat it in mid-flight. So if honda misses with his super then he is getting punished. Whereas with boxer or ryu this almost never happens. If you wanted to use the boxer's or ryu's super to put pressure or move into position, it's almost no risk and the rewards are high. If honda tries the same thing and the opponent guesses/counters correctly, he can get hit out of startup or have his super blocked and countered between the first and second headbutts.

    "supers add a dynamic to the game that didn't exists without them"

    True. But does that make for a smarter game? So now if i'm ryu, instead of thinking about position/timing to try and counter dhalsim's moves and hopefully get a knockdown so i can cross him up or safejump him, i can just run and do some spinkicks and get the super and then start fighting him. If i'm guile or chun li, once ryu gets that super my strategy is reduced to "bait that super out then resume fighting". I'm either going to have to try to bait that super out just to try and hold on to a lead that i have, and if i have to come back, good luck trying to wear him down while he's holding on to that super.

    "the fact that you have to rethink strategies over the course of a match works wonders for the game. Some supers are better than others, but that doesn't mean they all should be relegated to obsolescence"

    I agree about the rethinking strategy part, and about how supers shouldn't be completely useless.

    In fact, i threw out a claim earlier about how toning down the damage/invincibility on ryu's super would not make it much less useful. Let's say ryu's super is no longer invincible and does less damage, but still does 5 hits, juggles, and destroys other fireballs.

    He would still gain an advantage in fireball fights and lessen pressure and block damage from characters who play the fireball game as well/better than him. Losing invincibility means that he now has to be a bit more careful in when to throw it out in case he gets hit out of startup and loses the super.

    He still can punish jumps at ranges where the DP and other AAs cannot be used and maybe setup a juggle.

    In ground games and footsie it would still be excellent, either in scenarios where you bait a whiffed poke and punish with the super (like an even better version of red fireball counter that he already has) or use it to trade with other pokes for more hits and more damage.

    Now all this is theoretical, but i'm not sure how taking out high damage and invincibility from a move makes that move completely useless.
  • dogberrydogberry l33t OG Sagat tactics Joined: Posts: 358
    Unessential:

    It's not just the fact that you can end the round off of 1 lucky super that makes them so game-changing. As i pointed out previously, it's the threat of that super too. Like in boxer/chun, once they're within super range it's not worth the risk to throw out even a right-timed poke to keep the other guy at bay because of that super. And if you don't do anything the other guy gets to establish position for free.
  • JED07JED07 Sleeping on the floor with the Rats Joined: Posts: 650
    Vampire Savior, Vampire Hunter(Night warriors), Alpha 3, Third strike, and CvS2. They might not have a healthy scene in america but some of those scenes in this country is devoted especially Vampire Savior people.

    Also, CE is still played more than HF even if you take out china in arcades so stay close minded.
    Where are these points coming from?

    ST supers aren't that big of a deal.

    Man up bro.



    Or play HF.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

    See, this is why I rarely post anything on the internet.

    Look at these two answers.

    The first one at least tries to counter me but fails.

    I'm talking about ST, and it's played in a hell of a lot more different geographic locations than any of those sorry games you mentioned. Nice try though.

    Alpha 3? Are you fucking kidding me? That has to be a troll.

    As for coth, well what can I say?

    I might as well respond gently so his special needs brain can keep up.

    Those points I came up with retard, are things I figured you special needs people would throw at me to justify your position.

    You have not responded to any of them except posting a retard blanket statement.

    Eat a dick.
    Will puke for ST.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Alpha 3? Are you fucking kidding me? That has to be a troll.

    Oh! only attacking one point look at who's has no clue.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Except no one is arguing those points?

    You also gave nothing but vague answers about how you'd make stuff better to make up with supers being gone.

    You sound like a retard.

    The supers are an extra tool, but with the exception of ryu, rog, and chun you don't have to really change your strategy. Please tell me why I care about fei getting super, or dj, or honda, cammy (maybe if I'm throwing fireballs), I only worry about ken's if he can combo into it, etc.

    I'm not sure what your point is about supers.

    You know what needs to be changed in ST?

    Gief/hawk tick throws, claw going of the wall, rog rushdown, sim, osag zoning, fundamental problems with nonfireball characters against zoning games.

    Basic engine things, the last thing that matters is supers.

    Man up.

    CE is still played because people with slow reflexes play that game.

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    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • dogberrydogberry l33t OG Sagat tactics Joined: Posts: 358
    Coth_x: i'd like to know what you think is the problem with gief and hawk ticks, and which fundamental problems you are talking about regarding non-fireball characters against zoning games that you would like to see changed rather than the super moves.

    Claw off the wall i can understand (if you mean wall-dive spam), rog rushdown, old sagat fireball zoning? Minor nerfs to those are definitely welcome. Sim is debateable. If more characters got buffs to help specifically against dhalsim i would be for that.

    And about this:

    " please tell me why i care about fei getting super, or honda, or dj, or cammy, etc. etc"

    Maybe if i'm playing guile or chun and i'm trying to keep fei out of range so he can't setup the throw/close fierce xx chicken wing trap against me. So once he gets that super i risk taking 50% damage because i threw out a poke trying to push him away, or i do nothing and he gets in a position to either throw, combo or start the chicken wing trap if i'm in the corner. Or shotos vs. cammy. Throwing fireballs against cammy to keep her out of low forward range is pretty common, but once she has meter i have to guess whether she'll super before i decide to throw that fireball, and like against fei, if i do nothing then she gets a chance to make me block a low forward into hooligan/nothing mixup, or walkup throw etc.

    Please explain how the risk/reward isn't hugely skewed in favour of whoever has super here. Especially in fei's case since his super is much more safe on block than cammy.
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    I also don't understand why would Zangief's tick throw game be wrong in any aspect. Please explain Coth.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Two things, for starters:

    1. I absolutely agree that many of the supers in ST have too little risk for the rewards they usually provide. I just think that it's easy to go overboard with the damage, vulnerability, and recovery nerfs. Again, I really think Sirlin did most of them right with HDR; a median of around 40% damage was a good number for which to shoot.

    Boxer's is still a bit too good, but at least it went from disgusting to just overly good. If anything, that move needs more recovery at the end, so that baiting/avoiding/reversing it could be possible for more of the cast.

    Ryu's deals quite a bit less damage in HDR, but still allows him to really own fireball wars. It works there at its power level otherwise since many characters got additional ways to cope with projectiles.

    My biggest beef with supers is that there's such a wide disparity between the good ones that open up options (Boxer, Ryu, Dictator, Chun) and the ones that just allow more damage than usual in the same situations in which you'd already be using specials (Ken, Guile, Gief, Hawk). That in and of itself seems out of balance, but then when you'd think there would be some drawback or cost to adding such match-altering options, you see that the supers that do add those are a bit over the top. My favorite supers are actually the ones that can allow for some new tricks, but can be baited and punished more regularly as well, like Cammy's.

    But yeah...getting rid of half the damage and most of the invulnerability? That's too much. It would make them just like the usual special moves, more akin to how the KoF series uses them (but harder to combo into).

    2. I would love to see a version of ST where people could select a mode or dip-switch to simply turn supers off. It would be so easy to include, and would change so much without really changing anything at all. It would be a great variation for which to have access.

    If you don't like supers in your SFII, that's your opinion, and a fine one to have. Just don't hate on the majority who like them in their ST (or HDR). Like many of the brutal mechanics in the game, they are something we've learned to live with, and enjoy overall.

    Also, again, if anyone who's good with the x68000 assembly code would like to help with some tinkering, it would be much appreciated.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    My issue with grappler ticks is also related to the reversal frame. Its a personal issue, but I really hate playing a character that loses to a grappler's footsies only to then have that grappler get that amount of damage on block, its understandable in the hard matches.

    This is how i personally look at it born, its because of the characters I use, its irritating not being able to easily keep him out and then having to deal with that.

    WIth respect to the zoning comment while i feel that SF2 is designed around the fireball and that isn't necessarily a bad thing, some characters simply suffer too much from that.

    EDIT: Poking fei/cammy/dj etc with super is a risk, but feints should be mixed in to draw those out, most of the time fei/dj super is unsafe at range, or will get pitiful chip. If they are expecting the regular poke, throw a light out. I agree that sucks, but the same could be said in reverse, they knock you down and go for a meaty and you reversal super for 50%.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    Dogberry, I had a point written down while reading your and JED's posts, and your example you gave was pretty much why I considered landing a super "lucky"

    because it's pretty damn risky to poke/build meter for both characters in the chun/boxer matchup. Leaving the matchup exactly as it is and reducing each super to 25-30%. I think that would be reasonable. It's still risky do build meter/poke etc. But if they land that random super on that random poke, It's not a game ender, you can still come back. The super's can still be thrown out "randomly" to get position and shit. and it's still risky as hell for both characters to build meter (except for fireball -> headbutt). There's also another bonus to this change. You can choose not to play the meter building game more often in this matchup as well. With that option thrown in. lets be honest. you're never going to get meter more than 2x in a match unless both sides play the meter building game all match. and if both players in a course of a match decide to do that. I'm perfectly fine with it. But I have options.

    if the damage is reduced, to 25% damage that's like what... 3 pokes? most of the time you'll be blocking anyway. other than the damage, the advantages of the supers are still there, and there's still plenty of reason to build and use them. and 25% is not something to sneeze at either. You wouldn't want to give that away for free. so you still have to be mindful of the super just like you did before.

    I think many of your examples are pretty much the same thing. I'm using this example because i've said a thousand times to thousands of people that supers is what makes that my favourite matchup to play. But i never said they had to stay exactly the same. I just don't want them to be gone completely.

    Here's what I think is a good compromise: Reduced damage on supers. Leave invincibilities on supers that already have them (but maybe reduce them) That way those characters can still choose to use the supers as a reversal. but add more frames after the invincibility ends before the active frames start. (there's essentially your startup) for most supers, this will allow them to still be used as pressure when you're on the offensive as well, but not a 100% get off me for those "Free stupid ugh i hate you" situations. And again, really with only 25% on a super (and needing to build it to begin with) even if those situations stayed i wouldn't really care... maybe supers should be more in the 30-40% range rather than that 25-30% that i said earlier.

    Coth: Regarding fei's invincibility. you're a bastard lol. That was obviously a typo. Typing on a playbook sucks. I ment fei should get his invincibility nerfed.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I think feis invin is fine, the super doesn't move fast.

    Imagine boxer's with that invin. . .

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    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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