Hacking the ST rom...

13468916

Comments

  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    Well, technically Gief's super does give him a new option, since he can use it as negative edge just like THawk can with his typhoons/super. Too bad its range is too limiting: if the opponent knows you're going for it theres a huge chance that he will throw you first.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • dogberrydogberry l33t OG Sagat tactics Joined: Posts: 358
    Jizzon:

    "But yeah...getting rid of half the damage and most of the invulnerability? That's too much. It would make them just like the usual special moves, more akin to how the KoF series uses them (but harder to combo into)."

    Well that was partly my point when i suggested that the supers be toned down. They rreally ought be thought of as just other special moves, at the very least. But really more like ES moves in vampire savior or EX moves in 4. Just another tool in your character's toolbox where there is a benefit and a potential cost (other than meter) to use the move, and not an invincible, high-damage move that would solve a character's problems too completely.

    And this brings up my next point. I actually don't think that just reducing damage and wiping out all invincible frames is the way to go for balancing all the supers in ST. I think if you were to tweak the supers, two things should be considered:

    1. Does the super (before and after the tweak) opens up option(s) the character previously did not have

    2. Do any of the increased/decreased options push the character over the edge in any possible game scenario (no option should solve a character's problems too completely in any one situation, there should be a cost/penalty for using that option)

    So let's say with boxer's super. As it is (completely invincible until the second punch), does 50% damage, safe on block, huge range, cannot be ducked (the punch version) or jumped easily (either version).

    In in-close situations, it's easy to see that the super clearly pushes boxer over the edge in terms of options (where he already dominates with excellent normals and his grabs), in near to mid-range (say around or just outside guile's low forward), boxer could use the super to go through fireballs/pokes, punish whiffs, tag jumpers. Without the super, he's got the headbutt to hit fireball throwers and jumps, stand fierce for trades, low dash to punish whiffs. Even at mid-range IMO the super is too much. At just around half screen and a bit beyond i think the super still has the range to pass through a fireball and tag the other guy for half life, whereas without super he would have to resort to dashes to either get in or trade.

    So if you look at that super as it is and what it does for that character in the ranges where it's most effective in, it's easy to see why i would insist that, at least for that super, the invincible frames eliminated and damage be toned down. I would keep the range and the safe on block though, because that would give him an option to get in in some situations where he might have resort to taking hits.
  • JED07JED07 Sleeping on the floor with the Rats Joined: Posts: 650
    The problem I have with tic into command grab (SPD, Ochio, etc) is that once your dictator and your knocked down your guaranteed to lose another chunk of health.

    One of the very few things I liked about SF4 is that you could at least jump out of a tick grab if you saw it coming. Your still probably gonna eat a combo into another knockdown if the fat man knows your trying to wiggle free but that's still better than a guaranteed tick grab unless you have super to escape.

    EDIT:
    1. Does the super (before and after the tweak) opens up option(s) the character previously did not have

    2. Do any of the increased/decreased options push the character over the edge in any possible game scenario (no option should solve a character's problems too completely in any one situation, there should be a cost/penalty for using that option)

    Dogberry pretty much just said what I'm trying to get at with supers. I couldn't have said it better myself.

    This is my problem with them. Yeah most are pretty meh but some are like holy crap. There should always be something you can do against a super, especially against raging buffalo which is based off a special move that doesn't even have invincibility frames in the first place.

    No matter what, you should ALWAYS be able to punish a move that virtually beats anything else after you successfully block it. I'm looking at Supers and DPs here.
    Will puke for ST.
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 1,003
    If you want "pure" SF without supers, play HF? It's not like HF is a bad game.

    Anyway, back on topic of the thread: I think HSF2 is a better base for hacking than ST. HDR has already been done; why not try to make an "HDR" HSF2, fix the absurd stuff like CE Bison, and throw in a few other tweaks? I mean, in a perfect world, if I'm going to hack a version of SF to make it better, why not hack the version with more characters?
    No matter what, you should ALWAYS be able to punish a move that virtually beats anything else after you successfully block it.
    Um, this is why supers require meter.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    why not hack the version with more characters?
    Having to edit 33 characters is already quite time consuming. Especially, everyone here is editing with hex editors and just figuring it out. But, asking to edit 65 (8 world warrior, 12 for ce, 12 for hf, 16 ssf2, and 17 for st) is just crazy talk.

    Walk speed table
    7B912

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    It's funny you mention these changes to supers, guys, because before all of this become the topic-of-the-moment, I changed the properties of many of them these very ways in the experiment you're playing around with. If only I knew how to fix reversal bugs...

    And yeah, we have locations of the walk and jump speeds in the .03c ROM; thanks for looking out, though. Do you know where the locations are for special move velocity/acceleration, or how to alter those?
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    It's funny you mention these changes to supers, guys, because before all of this become the topic-of-the-moment, I changed the properties of many of them these very ways in the experiment you're playing around with. If only I knew how to fix reversal bugs...

    And yeah, we have locations of the walk and jump speeds in the .03c ROM; thanks for looking out, though. Do you know where the locations are for special move velocity/acceleration, or how to alter those?

    Not really I've been looking into the specials a tiny bit character select stuff on other games, but most capcom fighters engine is derived from sf2.

    Edit: To fix the reversals is going to require a ton of work as you have to change how turbo is done and the input system, or you talking about stuff where some of the moves are messed up?

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 1,003
    Having to edit 33 characters is already quite time consuming. Especially, everyone here is editing with hex editors and just figuring it out. But, asking to edit 65 (8 world warrior, 12 for ce, 12 for hf, 16 ssf2, and 17 for st) is just crazy talk.
    No need to edit 65 characters (or even 33). Trying to rebalance O.DJ or O.Blanka or O.Cammy is just pointless. I mean, characters like O.Honda or O.Sim or O.Boxer (i.e. characters that are different in interesting ways), sure. But there's a good chunk of the old characters that are the-same-but-better new, and fixing the old version is just a flat out waste of time. There's no way to make O.Blanka better than N.Blanka other than just giving him better hit/hurtbox, less startup, less recovery, or more damage on the exact same moves. The best case scenario is the same character with fewer, better moves. Real boring sh*t.

    In any case, I'm not saying that you should try to fix WW Blanka or HF Claw or anything like that. Some versions of characters just get dustbinned, and that's fine. But if one is hypothetically willing to work on 33 characters, it makes more sense to fine tune HF Boxer, CE Ken, CE Guile, HF Gief, etc. than it does to fine tune O.Dic or O.Chun.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    Well, in Jizzon's hack he buffed some of the trash characters (O.Blanka, O.DJ, etc) and they seemed to be pretty balanced and competitive, and it wasn't that complicated actually.
    Jedpossum, i think Jizzon is talking about the moves which can't be performed as reversals (Sagat's, Sim's and Ken's supers, O.Dic's Devil Reverse) as well as moves that dont work right (either T.Hawks DPs are buggy, the last used version always comes out, regardless of the button used).
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    No need to edit 65 characters (or even 33). Trying to rebalance O.DJ or O.Blanka or O.Cammy is just pointless. I mean, characters like O.Honda or O.Sim or O.Boxer (i.e. characters that are different in interesting ways), sure. But there's a good chunk of the old characters that are the-same-but-better new, and fixing the old version is just a flat out waste of time. There's no way to make O.Blanka better than N.Blanka other than just giving him better hit/hurtbox, less startup, less recovery, or more damage. The best case scenario is a character with fewer, better moves. Real boring sh*t.

    In any case, I'm not saying that you should try to fix WW Blanka or HF Claw or anything like that. Some versions of characters just get dustbinned, and that's fine. But if one is hypothetically willing to work on 33 characters, it makes more sense to fine tune HF Boxer, CE Ken, CE Guile, HF Gief, etc. than it does to fine tune O.Dic or O.Chun.

    Okay now you're contradicting yourself. "You have all these characters" "All those characters are waste"
    Jedpossum, i think Jizzon is talking about the moves which can't be performed as reversals (Sagat's, Sim's and Ken's supers, O.Dic's Devil Reverse) as well as moves that dont work right (either T.Hawks DPs are buggy, the last used version always comes out, regardless of the button used).
    My guess the input for those are messed up.

    edit:
    Found the branching subroutines for n.sagat's specials/super
    8d996
    bsr $8d9aa
    bsr $8dcbc
    bsr $8de14
    bsr $8db5e
    bsr $8df78
    

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 1,003
    Okay now you're contradicting yourself. "You have all these characters" "All those characters are waste"
    No, I'm saying that buffing characters that are the-same-but-worse is a waste. HF Blanka has significantly different strategies from ST Blanka. HF Gief has significantly different strategies from ST Gief. O.Cammy, O.DJ, O.Blanka, O.Dic, etc. are ST characters with less moves.

    Unless you're going the rainbow edition/HDR route (where you simply assign characters brand new moves, or radically changed moves like HDR SBK or HDR HK Flash Kick), all the time you spend fixing a trashy, useless O. character could be spent tuning something like HF Chun instead. Sirlin made a smart choice to get rid of old/new in HDR, because rebalancing old characters (with a few specific exceptions) is just redundant. Better to work with older, better, different versions of the characters instead.
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    No, I'm saying that buffing characters that are the-same-but-worse is a waste. HF Blanka has significantly different strategies from ST Blanka. HF Gief has significantly different strategies from ST Gief. O.Cammy, O.DJ, O.Blanka, O.Dic, etc. are ST characters with less moves.
    In other words they're different characters
    fixing a trashy, useless O. character
    in other words waste

    The formats for attacks hasn't change dramatically you can just port them over.
    This isn't porting a character Vampire Hunter to Vampire Savior/Hunter 2.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 1,003
    Yes, O.Dic is a "different character" from N.Dic in the same sense and to the extent that if you simply locked out Fei at the select screen and made no other changes, you would have a "different game."

    That is exactly what I am trying to convey when I say "the-same-but-worse." Why spend time tuning characters that are the-same-but-worse (and yes, being worse does technically make them different... great call!) when you can tune characters that are different in useful and interesting ways?
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • dogberrydogberry l33t OG Sagat tactics Joined: Posts: 358
    I wonder if trying to re-tune AE would take out some of its crazy, novelty appeal. Like if you were to re-tune CE bison, or lower the damage/stun potential of WW characters, whatever. Part of the appeal of that game IMO was to see how the crazy shit in each version of the game stacked up against another version (ce bison lockdown vs. st supers, high damage/stun vs. throw techs), to tweak those aspects of the game seems like it would take out the part of the game that makes AE what it is.

    If you really rather see the cps1 versions of the characters than ssf2 versions, you could do something like adjust old guile to give him all the properties of, say, CE guile (minus the high damage), frame for frame, hitbox for hitbox, and you'd pretty much have ce guile in ST. Or blanka, i always thought giving o.blanka back HF blanka's upball would be the one thing that would make him worth playing again. If you're going that way, you could also give him back his godlike jump up RH too. Would that upball thing be even possible to do in the st hack?
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Must be double-post day.

    Part of the inspiration for tweaking the old characters in ST was looking at some good stuff throughout the years that had been cut or changed. Take Dictator as an example.

    Obviously in CE he was overpowered with that mix-up Crusher and the fast-charging chipping legs of doom. In both HF and SSFII, though, he really got watered down to being pretty ineffective. His offense was gimped, and he has no good ways of escaping pressure.

    In ST, his ToD combos, juggling strongs, and super really gave him much better attack options and defense. Some of the changes Sirlin added in HDR such as the escaping Devil Reverse made a lot of sense for him as well.

    So how to give O.Dic some power that makes him feel like a classic version of the character, yet remain unique?

    For starters, his Psycho Crusher got better priority. He has the same hurtbox at his midsection as CE Dic, plus the same priority forward of that move as well (a buff of like six pixels). We learned the hard way that the really broken part of that move in CE was how the hitbox at his legs could cross up so easily, so now it only goes back to the same point as his midsection hurtbox did in SSFII. The move now beats a few things more cleanly, it allows him to pressure with it a bit better, and it can still be a tricky (though not broken as all hell) cross-up. He can use his jab and strong ones in particular to force unsuspecting characters to land on his ass, which will now connect. It's also a bit more difficult to punish, but since it doesn't chip any more than in S/ST on block, it doesn't outright blow out any matches. In the end, it's not nearly as effective as anything he has in CE, but it still feels classic, and works out very well for him.

    The next big change was along the same lines as he got in HDR, and that was to allow his unsteerable Devil Reverse to escape fireball traps. Unlike HDR Dic, the move didn't lose any start-up frames, though; all six of his grounded frames are invulnerable. Why? The move is much more predictable to counter, and he has no super, so he needs a way to not get smothered with impunity by half the cast. As is, the reversal bug is still there, so you have to "load" it if you think there's any chance you're going to get cornered. Jump-in mix-ups still do a number on him, but it actually rewards you to not safe jump him, since the late timing would allow him a better chance for his escape. Though the move is typically easier to punish than the ST Devil Reverse, it at least gets him out of the corner faster as well. It, too, has worked out really well.

    He got some other tweaks too, like his standing forward and roundhouse not being able to be hit by lariats. Just those two main changes though really make him come alive and be competitive, while still feeling right.

    There's still plenty that's ripe to play with as well that fits the old characters. Blanka's weird WW "overhead" is still in the game data, and could be easily set and modified for the old version to have a unique tool. I gave O.Guile a variation of his CE/HF roundhouse two-hit Flash Kick, and man is it sweet to connect with. It also comboes more reliably, thanks to a few tricks the ST engine allows.

    So yeah, just dismissing any of the old characters outright doesn't make sense. There's a lot of potential there, as we've had fun discovering.

    EDIT: And yeah; I was referring to the reversal bugs and odd inputs, not the overall reversal window itself (which is fine as-is).
  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 1,003
    My point is that rather than tweaking O.Blanka/Chun/Gief, you could tweak HF Blanka/Chun/Gief and have more of a "different moves do different things" instead of "Psycho Crusher has better priority." HF upball isn't the just ST upball with more priority... it's a totally different move. HF Kikoken isn't just ST Kikoken with better recovery, etc.

    To some extent, I've always thought that ST would have been a better game if the old code gave you the HF version instead of the SSF2 version. There's just more distinction between HF and ST. If you look at a character like Boxer, the ST version is very different than the HF version (with SSF2 being somewhere in the middle). Why not have two distinctly different flavors of a character instead of one that less recovery on headbutt and a better hitbox on low strong?
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    You're still making zero sense. the differences between the older cps1 characters is mainly frames and and hitbox differences(if you don't count bugs) which can easily be recreated in st since it's still same engine.

    As fixing the reversals all I'm going to say is welcome to assembly hacking.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Spider-DanSpider-Dan Joined: Posts: 1,003
    Well, yes, jedpossum, the difference between Psycho Crusher and, say, Bionic Arm is "mainly frames and hitbox differences." See, I can also make uselessly obvious statements!

    If you think that the difference between HF Boxer and ST Boxer is "mainly frames and and hitboxes" (outside of the stupid, useless definition I just highlighted), I don't know what to tell you. They are completely disparate characters with totally different focuses, primarily due to HF TAP vs. headbutt. And generally speaking, Capcom has been reluctant to give characters hitboxes that DO NOT CORRESPOND AT ALL to the animation frame (which is what you would get if you CPS2 Boxer's low forward hitbox to CPS1 Boxer, or CPS2 Claw's jump strong hitbox to CPS1 Claw).
    I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Editing frame data can change how a character is played.

    Edit:
    There is a tutorial in this very thread so go experiment and do the changes yourself.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    You can change sprites pretty easily along with the hitboxes if you know how to do it. It's rare that the programmers actually delete data, so there's all sorts of old move info you could play with.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    In the animation pointer there is pointers to the 16x16 blocks to edit the animation.
    joqB7.png

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    By animation you mean the sprite being used during a move or something else (vertical/horizontal movement of command normals or specials, for example?), because we already know how to change the sprite used. Sorry but i dont play these vampire games, that screen and nothing is the same for me lol.
    Talking about the guide, I finished a planned update to it that i was working these days, containing most stuff that me and Jizzon discovered recently. Here's the link for it.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    We already know how to change the sprite used. Sorry but i dont play these vampire games, that screen and nothing is the same for me lol..
    I know I was just using that as an example
    Well do Victor's dash punch in Hunter(Night Warriors) then do his in Savior. Also, Anak is push blocking.
    Also, this shouldn't surprise anyone.
    yRSRS.png

    Edit
    Input window (data is encrypted)
    O.Sagat
    Tiger Uppercut
    As 4 meg
    0x0A1226

    Rom 4
    0x21226

    Tiger Shot
    As 4 meg
    0x0A14E2

    Rom 4
    0x214E2

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    I'm fine with most supers being safe on block... As long as they aren't over the top... Eg. Boxers as it is now should be unsafe on block. But if you toned it down in the ways suggested then I'd be fine with it being safe. so many things being safe is one of the things I love about ST I'd hate to see it go completely. Either only do it for some chars or none at all...
    Edit: Keep in mind, safe on block doesn't mean completely safe. Things can be punished on reaction, whiff and even on hit! (maybe you'll get to the point where you can hack out knockdown from moves as well) Edit2: theoretical example: someone's super does 50% damage but leaves them open for an easy meterless 40% damage? If I'm not dead, I'll take that trade most of the time!
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Dictator: People must remember SSF2 is WW-speed. If you even neutral jump, Dictator can fly to the other side of the screen with Psycho Crusher. If he has no charge, he can use his sweep, depending on the distance.

    O.Blanka probably just needs a reliable way to cross the enemy up. His kick ball could be changed to accomplish that.
    Edit
    Input window (data is encrypted)
    O.Sagat
    Sagat's Tiger Knee and Dictator's Head Stomp have a too short window to press the button. Those should be fixed. Also, Fei's Rekka kick and Cammy's Hooligan Combo are bugged: you have to delay the button press, which is really weird, and most certainly has been overlooked - same case as the unusually short window for the Tiger Knee.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    the unusually short window for the Tiger Knee.
    The motion itself has more to do with it than the timing which is the standard 8 to 12 frames per input. The problem is jumps happen 3 frames after the up forward input regardless how long you old it in Capcom games so on up forward you have 3 frames to press/release the button in order it to come out. This is the reason Capcom changed the motion in SFA.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    The motion itself has more to do with it than the timing which is the standard 8 to 12 frames per input. The problem is jumps happen 3 frames after the up forward input regardless how long you old it in Capcom games so on up forward you have 3 frames to press/release the button in order it to come out.
    That's what one would expect, but one actually has just a single frame to press (or release) the button. The same applies for the Head Stomp. The motion part is fine: it is the restrictive button timing which most certainly makes it troublesome.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    That's what one would expect, but one actually has just a single frame to press (or release) the button. The same applies for the Head Stomp. The motion part is fine: it is the restrictive button timing which most certainly makes it troublesome.
    You didn't read a single word I posted. The timer is the normal like the other moves it is the motion is what is making it hard you have to do the button press in the pre-jump or you'll jump. changing the timer won't fix this.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,161
    Turning O.Blanka into HF Blanka would be great...

    As for Rog's super, invincibility should definitely stay the same. O. Sagat and Dhalsim would be a nightmare otherwise. A damage reduction would be fine though, and maybe you could make it so it always is punishable against every character when blocked in the corner (always leaving those "gaps" where you can punish him)?

    Chun's super, a damage reduction and fixing the stored glitch would be enough. And Ryu also a small damage reduction and no invincibility at all (why should a projectile super give you invincibility?). The rest are fine as they are IMO.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Turning O.Blanka into HF Blanka would be great...

    As for Rog's super, invincibility should definitely stay the same. O. Sagat and Dhalsim would be a nightmare otherwise. A damage reduction would be fine though, and maybe you could make it so it always is punishable against every character when blocked in the corner (always leaving those "gaps" where you can punish him)?

    Chun's super, a damage reduction and fixing the stored glitch would be enough. And Ryu also a small damage reduction and no invincibility at all (why should a projectile super give you invincibility?). The rest are fine as they are IMO.

    Balrog's Super is fine as is, even with the damage it does. As you said Rog is a counter to some of the top characters, so no need to change his Super. If anything needs to be changed, it would be the speed on his Low Rush. I would suggest slowing it down a little, maybe by as little as 1 frame. Or I would recommend extending his vulnerable hitboxes a tiny bit so that more normals can trade/stuff the Low Rush. But it's not a big deal, it's fine the way it is too.

    I agree with a less damage for Chun's Super, but I don't agree with taking out the stored Super. This was something that Sirlin was thinking of doing for HDR, but top Chun players convinced him to leave it in, cuz that would take away her "fun factor", and I agree, so he left it in thankfully.

    I get the sneaky feeling that any ST player who complains about Ryu's Super invincibility is not actually a real ST player, but is actually a HF/CE player who doesn't like Super attacks. You strike me as that type of person. Why should Ryu's Super have invincibility? Cuz every other Super in the game has start-up invincibility and Ryu should not be treated any differently. There are already a ton of attacks that can beat Ryu's Super cleanly, and even some that if done at point blank range can make the Super whiff completely (eg Chun's close Strong/close Forward, Vega's crouch Strong, Cammy's close Forward, Ryu's Rushing Fierce, etc).

    Sirlin was also given advice about what to do with Ryu for HDR, and he was told that Ryu's perfect and not to change anything, and I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately Sirlin gave him the fake Hadoken which gives him a bigger advantage against non-fireball characters. Ryu should just be left the way he is IMO.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Did you just say rog is fine the way he is?
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  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Do I need to quote my post so you can read it again? Not that I mind but it would be a waste of disk space.
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,161
    No, Rog's super isn't fine as it is. It's damaging, it has tons of invincibility, it's safe. Something has to give. Invincibility not, because that would hurt him a lot vs. Sim and O.Sagat. But less damage and some sort of unsafety would be good.

    I don't care if every other super has invincibility. Giving Ryu invincibility, damage and the ability to blow through projectiles with no drawbacks is too much. It just doesn't make much sense to give him such an all around solution for everything. Chun's stored super hurts non projectile characters a lot since jumping over a kikouken when she has meter often means eating a super. Again, damage, invincibility and storing all in one are too much.

    Funny that you say I'm not a "real" ST player since I've debated on supers against HF players several times now. I think supers are a good mechanic in ST, but that doesn't mean overpowered supers are fine as they are. Just like overpowered specials (hi Vega), they should be fixed.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    No, Rog's super isn't fine as it is. It's damaging, it has tons of invincibility, it's safe. Something has to give. Invincibility not, because that would hurt him a lot vs. Sim and O.Sagat. But less damage and some sort of unsafety would be good.

    I don't care if every other super has invincibility. Giving Ryu invincibility, damage and the ability to blow through projectiles with no drawbacks is too much. It just doesn't make much sense to give him such an all around solution for everything. Chun's stored super hurts non projectile characters a lot since jumping over a kikouken when she has meter often means eating a super. Again, damage, invincibility and storing all in one are too much.

    Funny that you say I'm not a "real" ST player since I've debated on supers against HF players several times now. I think supers are a good mechanic in ST, but that doesn't mean overpowered supers are fine as they are. Just like overpowered specials (hi Vega), they should be fixed.

    Supers are not overpowered in ST. The main purpose of a Super IMO is to give the character an option to get out of a situation that they otherwise wouldn't be able to overcome (eg Sagat has nothing that will beat Ryu or Ken's meaty Shoryuken except his Super, Cammy's Super is invaluable for pressuring fireball characters to decrease the number of projectiles). That's why I'm fine with all Supers having invincible start-up.

    In fact I think most Supers aren't strong enough or effective enough. That's why I agreed with HDR Honda's buffed up Super (and it's still not good enough, it still can't go through meaty fireballs), and that's why I advocate giving Sagat, Ken and Dhalsim their reversal Supers. They have this option in HDR and they're not overpowered at all (it works great for Sagat vs meaty DPs and fireballs!).

    If there's one Super that I had to say was overpowered, it would be Vega's Super cuz he can keep his meter even if he misses the throw, it's a win-win. But that's stretching the definition of overpowered too far IMO, it's fine the way it is.

    BTW Dhalsim's Super also blows through projectiles, has better invincibility than Ryu, good damage, and is also an effective anti-air. I'd rather not accuse you of bias, but it seems I don't have a choice.
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,161
    Looks like you are misunderstanding me. I'm not against supers, but saying that all super moves are perfectly balanced is incorrect, and properly balancing their risk/reward is a good thing. If you read my posts correctly I even say that, aside for those three overpowered supers, the rest are mostly fine.

    Sim's has invincibility, but can't be used as a reversal and has limited range. It's not as useful as Ryu's, which is why you don't see it used that much outside of chip damage. Honda's super should stay the way it is. Stored super is very useful against Rog (and without it the matchup would be even harder than it already is), and can be used against zoners that jump on you when you walk forward / do a n.j.HP. Dhalsim not being able to use his super as a reversal is a good thing. He doesn't need that; things are hard enough for most characters to give him a proper reversal. Removing Vega's option select super/swipe would be good too, but it's not as relevant as the actually powerful supers.

    Not every super has to be great by the way. Some being situational or matchup specific is not a bad thing at all, as long as they have other tools to compensate.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    If you read my posts correctly I even say that, aside for those three overpowered supers, the rest are mostly fine.

    Give me an example of a matchup or situation where you would say that Ryu's Super is overpowered.

    I agree with you that Dhalsim's Super is better than Ryu's at close range. And I agree that Ryu's Super is better than Sim's for punishing fireballs. You correctly said that Sim's Super is harder to punish because of his better priority, but the solution is not to take away Sim's reversal Super, the answer to that is to decrease Sim's invincibility so that it's more easily punished (HDR's treatment of it is not bad, but I would go slightly farther and give him only slightly better priority than Ryu). But anyway, Sim is top tier and Ryu is at best #5, so it makes sense that his Super should be somewhat (situationally) better than Sim's.

    Do you really believe Honda's Super is fine? Do you really believe that?

    You must be trolling me now, cuz every Honda player says it's damn near useless in fireball matches (it's somewhat useless in HDR, but it's completely atrocious in ST, not even worthy of being called a Super Attack). Even if you manage to walk forward and punish a fireball with it, Ryu, Ken and Sagat can reversal DP and hit the 2nd Torpedo, and not just that but almost every other character can punish in between hits or after blocking the whole thing. Not to mention meaty fireballs are inescapable with it.

    I've even seen this amazing thing happen: Honda does Super from full screen vs Ryu, he tries to do Shoryuken at the last second, but instead misses and gets a Hadoken, yet still manages to hit Honda's Super cleanly at point blank range with Hadoken! Not even a trade. That's just pathetic. If there was a Super that was most in need of a buff, it would be Honda unanimously (and this is coming from a Ryu and Ken player!).
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,161
    Against Guile or Deejay for example, super tilts the game heavily in favor of Ryu. Giving Sim a good reversal is a mistake. Either keep it bugged or completely remove its invincibility.

    Honda's super is fine as it is (I main Honda). It doesn't need to be an all around super and it has its uses, like the ones I mentioned. It is vital in the Rog matchup, and useful against projectile characters so you don't get jumped in for free when moving forward. It's also easily comboable. Giving him other anti-fireball tools would be better than homogenizing the game by turning all supers into an anti projectile mechanic.

    If there's a super that needs a buff, that's Blanka's, because it's nearly useless. I can't think of a single situation where it works as anything other than a shenanigan against an unsuspecting opponent.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    Cronopio. I have a problem with at least one portion for all of your super changes. Ryu is pretty unsafe already, maybe just a damage reduction would be okay.

    Rogs super is NOT fine as it is. If you think he has a problem with o.gat well, guess what? The majority of the cast have a problem with him too. In fact, I think he (gat)doesn't have any bad matchups at all. I think the worst he has is a 5-5. So yes the super's (rog's) gotta give and I dont mind if it ends up being the invincibility. because o gat's gotta give too

    Honestly I think rog vs sim is fine.

    Removing chun's stored super? No. Just no. Like blitzfu said sirlin left it in for a reason. Its a big staple of her play and its just too damn fun. The main problem with the store is the 50-50 for 80% damage. Otherwise its not that bad. Find someway to deal with the 80% 50-50 if you must but do it without removing her store.

    As for honda. At thebare minimum i think if he lands the first hit of his super, it should combo 100% of the time. As it is, it doesnt. Not even close
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  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,161
    Stored super against non projectile characters is too good. She can shoot a kikouken then store and punish jumps (even neutral ones) on reaction. I don't think that's very fair or something that can be solved by lowering damage. Just give her something in return to compensate.

    O.Sagat has bad matchups against Vega and Sim. He should be toned down a bit for sure though (either keeping his Tiger Shot speed but with bigger hurtboxes or N.Sagat speed and O.Sagat's hurtboxes would be good I think).

    Rog's super needs to be toned down in the damage and safety department, but invincibility should remain the same IMO as it would make those two matchups quite hard.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    You have got to be the only Honda player who thinks Honda's Super doesn't need to be buffed. At least Blanka's Super can go through meaty fireballs!

    Ryu's Super is not overpowered vs Guile and DJ. When Ryu has meter, Guile and DJ simply have to change their tactics, tone down the number of fireballs they throw, be careful of whiffing pokes for no reason, etc. But Guile and DJ would have to do the same thing if Cammy got meter, or if Fei got meter, or if Bison got meter. This doesn't mean that Cammy, Fei or Bison's Supers are overpowered. Therefore Ryu's Super is not overpowered.

    Saying that Ryu's "super tilts the game heavily in favor of Ryu" is incredibly misleading. If matchup numbers are anything to go by Ryu vs DJ is at best 6-4 Ryu and vs Guile 5-5. That is certainly not my definition of overpowered. I would call O.Sagat vs Cammy overpowered, or Vega's Wall Dive vs anybody knocked down overpowered, or 50% unblockable Air Tatsus overpowered.
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