Blocking xups everytime ?

24

Comments

  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Haters always gon hate
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    I tested it and made a short video, with input watcher...
    Ok the vid quality sucks, but I can't do better myself, I don't like manipulating that kind of stuff. If someone's up for it, then don't be shy, share as I do (and better if you can, with Pasky's program for instance, I don't know how to make it work for online, as I got no offline player to test the game with...).
    Read description of the video for global info.
    I'm really sure there is something like 0men is talking about. Only detail is, it's really hard to consistently perform IMO, and that could be the reason why no top players are taking the risk doing so.
    And yes, this is a captain krabs wallpaper ;(
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    <djfrijoles> neo can you watch this viedo please
    <djfrijoles>
    <NeoRay> i saw it
    <djfrijoles> we dont understand how to do it right
    <djfrijoles> mexico usa europe
    <NeoRay> everyone know it but they can't do that
    <djfrijoles> it is new for all of us
    <djfrijoles> auto block jack
    <djfrijoles> anti cross up
    <NeoRay> shouldn't do it like perfect auto block
    <NeoRay> human can't do that
    <djfrijoles> is it neutral input or up input ?
    <NeoRay> no
    <NeoRay> right and left
    <NeoRay> you have to change the block side quickly except 1 frame less
    <NeoRay> if the changing time is late for 1 frame , u got full combo and dead.
    <NeoRay> no good. shouldn't think about it ,,,
    <NeoRay> that's why everyone people don't do that.
    <djfrijoles> ok i understand now
    <djfrijoles> thank you again neo
    <NeoRay> the changing time is different between all charactors.
    <NeoRay> Impossible.
    <djfrijoles> maybe master one char only ?
    <djfrijoles> very important thawk vs deejay
    <NeoRay> not important
    <djfrijoles> deejay cross up is 50/50 left right
    <djfrijoles> impossible to see what side to block
    <djfrijoles> into full combo dead
    <NeoRay> cant help it
    <djfrijoles> lol =(
    <NeoRay> that's the hawk
    <NeoRay> You get down. You will die.
    <NeoRay> that's simple.
    <djfrijoles> understood =(
    <NeoRay> I play with Seki Deejay for 100 times over.
    <djfrijoles> cross up = dead
    <NeoRay> Cross up attack is really dead.
    <NeoRay> we have to bet my lack or escape by strong tomahawk
    <NeoRay> He quit the game.
    <NeoRay> luck
    <djfrijoles> medium tomahawk ?
    <NeoRay> strong tomahawk
    <NeoRay> only strong tomahawk
    <GameKing> whats tomahawk
    <djfrijoles> but thawk has a dp glitch
    <NeoRay> it is the only one way u can escape from deejay's cross up attack
    <djfrijoles> last tomahawk come out
    <djfrijoles> last tomahawk come out as reversal tomahawk
    <NeoRay> yes
    <djfrijoles> pnvrb bolbvavbqwoivbaeóbvaeróvbeasbv
    <NeoRay> too tough game isn't it
    <djfrijoles> lol yes for t hawk
    <djfrijoles> but i wont quit ever
    <djfrijoles> always super turbo
    <djfrijoles> <
    35 yrs old
    <djfrijoles> <
    super turbo for life
    NeoRay> I will trust my team mates on tornament.
    <djfrijoles> cant stop wont stop
    <Whitelion$> mmmmmmmmmmmm
    <Kyouya> y eso fue lo que yo decía, 1 frame es imposible de timear
    <djfrijoles> for 3 on 3 super turbo is more balanced
    <NeoRay> i think so
    <djfrijoles> me 2
    <djfrijoles> only way
    <djfrijoles> strategy is in the order of players
    <djfrijoles> and match knowledge
    <Kyouya> and mindfucking your opponent
    <NeoRay> T.hawk can't win Dee Jay. That is kind of rule. i think.
    <djfrijoles> wow
    <djfrijoles> 10-0
    <NeoRay> But T.hawk can win ryu, ken, chun-li
    <djfrijoles> not blanka
    <NeoRay> yeah
    <djfrijoles> blanka is horrible
    <NeoRay> DeeJay , Blanka , Balrog , Cammy , Vega ,,,,
    <NeoRay> Too tough.
    <NeoRay> I hate them
    <djfrijoles> lol me 2
    <NeoRay> i don't wanna play with those charactors by my money.
    <djfrijoles> not fair
    <FortEuropa> anyways man , i'm gonna get my couple hours of sleep. good playing u and cya soon
    <NeoRay> Really shit match.
    <djfrijoles> skill alone canot win
    <djfrijoles> mind games and luck give you smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall chance
    <NeoRay> yes
    <NeoRay> but gettin small chance and winning is really fun for all hawk's players
    <djfrijoles> oh it feels like sex lol
    <NeoRay> We say " Accident charactor " for T.Hawk
    <djfrijoles> ????????
    <Kyouya> apa you should show that chatlog to wolmar, and crush his dreams
    <djfrijoles> gonna post in a few
    <djfrijoles> why accident
    <djfrijoles> becaause hawk has an accident and falls down ?
    <NeoRay> yes
    <NeoRay> T.Hawk is really weak on a lot of matchs.
    <NeoRay> But the tournament
    <djfrijoles> 3 on 3 ?
    <NeoRay> only 1 game's result is important
    <djfrijoles> single match elimination
    <djfrijoles> 1 game
    <djfrijoles> can go either way


    we kind of got of track but there you go
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    <Kyouya> apa you should show that chatlog to wolmar, and crush his dreams
    This is no dream ; only research about what could be a new technology in that game. And it seems there IS somekind of technique (Neoray just confirmed that), just nearly impossible to get consistently, just exactly as I thought from the beginning of it all.
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    OK, if he's saying right and left, then that checks out with my theory.

    The game polls for inputs every 16ms. If you can manage to hit left and right within that time frame, the game will see it as both directions have been pressed.

    1cDwN

    This is a timeline which has been approximated to 16ms = 1 frame to keep things simple. The game polls for inputs every frame, which is approx 16 ms, which is shown as the blocks above. Each block is 16 ms/characters wide.

    Let's say the game has been running for 100 frames, during which time you have been knocked down and are approaching the reversal frame as you get up (in this case frame 101 is the reversal frame, the first frame where you would normally become hittable again, or when you would input an invincible move). The frame lasts from 1683 ms to 1699ms, during which time you can make an input and it falls within a frame boundary. Let's say you input Left at 1686ms and Right at 1697ms - you have input a left and right direction in such a way that it falls within 1 frame.

    I believe that because the directions were pressed in a time faster than what the game samplesat, that it would just see that two directions were pressed in the space of a frame, and classes it as having been pressed at the same time.

    Wolmar, I wouldn't get your hopes up until someone can prove this offline using a macro pad or macro software. It doesn't make any sense that returning the stick to neutral or pressing up would make you block - this left and right thing is way more credible, but who can move the stick and engage opposite directions in less than 16ms?
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    This is no dream ; only research about what could be a new technology in that game. And it seems there IS somekind of technique (Neoray just confirmed that), just nearly impossible to get consistently, just exactly as I thought from the beginning of it all.


    I think it was a jokingly light hearted comment lol. At least that was what I thought and thats why I left it in.



    Anyways, can't anyone in our Super Turbo Special Forces NERD department test this with frame advancing and Pasky's chingamahpops that shows what side the crossing up charater is on with the axis display on ?
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    I think it was a jokingly light hearted comment lol.
    Think I misread Kyouya into Kyuoya ;p

    Anyways, can't anyone in our Super Turbo Special Forces NERD department test this with frame advancing and Pasky's chingamahpops that shows what side the crossing up charater is on with the axis display on ?
    I asked Pasky and He told me he was too lazy doing it, and something else I can tell here =X
    He's the Top notch ST nerd I ever seen, so please ST Mr Mustache come and help us !
    504248blacksuperman.jpg
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    This is no dream ; only research about what could be a new technology in that game. And it seems there IS somekind of technique (Neoray just confirmed that), just nearly impossible to get consistently, just exactly as I thought from the beginning of it all.

    Dude, if what 0men said is true (that mysterious fighter told him about that), then it is not impossible to do, MF just didn't tell him his secrets.
    Remember the MF combo? MF can do it like it's nothing.
    All of the very strong US ggpo ryu players cannot do it on command. (Nor do we see any japanese pro do it, like sasori, karahashi)
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    Dude, if what 0men said is true (that mysterious fighter told him about that), then it is not impossible to do, MF just didn't tell him his secrets.
    Remember the MF combo? MF can do it like it's nothing.
    All of the very strong US ggpo ryu players cannot do it on command. (Nor do we see any japanese pro do it, like sasori, karahashi)

    Nah, Neoray never lies, dude always speaks truth. If he says its not worth pursuing, then I believe him man.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    What is this combo that is so had the Japanese players can't do it, and has this guy ever done it offline with credible witnesses?
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    What is this combo that is so had the Japanese players can't do it, and has this guy ever done it offline with credible witnesses?

    The MF combo? Dash punch, take a slight step forward, cr.strong, fierce DP. As far as I know, it only works on crouching shotos? Or standing shotos....shit I forgot. But it's a pretty sick ass combo, and almost guaranteed to stun.

    As far as this block x-ups technology, I think it's worth investigating just to probe the ST engine a bit more and find out some more techie shit out of it. Outside of studying the mechanics of the engine, it looks too unreliable as ground-breaking technology guaranteed to improve your game or your money back.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    Cross up crouching opponent is the easy version

    he does the super hard version (dash into standing shoto opponent from the front) just as easy
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    Well I had a few goes and got it to work, but the fierce dp whiffed. What I did was put Ken in the corner, throw him so he's getting up and do a meaty dash punch. My execution is not accurate at all, but I found it easiest if you just input the dp mad fast after the low strong. That was the stumbling block for me at first. I don't know the details of this one he does to standing opponents, but I don't understand how it could work because all distances for the dash punch only hit once and if I go closer to do a 2 hit dash punch I get a throw instead.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Well I had a few goes and got it to work, but the fierce dp whiffed. What I did was put Ken in the corner, throw him so he's getting up and do a meaty dash punch. My execution is not accurate at all, but I found it easiest if you just input the dp mad fast after the low strong. That was the stumbling block for me at first. I don't know the details of this one he does to standing opponents, but I don't understand how it could work because all distances for the dash punch only hit once and if I go closer to do a 2 hit dash punch I get a throw instead.
    http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-st-match-vids-discussion-thread.18486/page-18#post-6154575
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    It's not up direction you need to do in that 1 frame, what you need to do is stand up. I'm guessing during the stand up animation, for 1 frame, your character will block from every direction.
    That cant be right... Doesnt your character stand up regardless of input? By your logic if we dont touch anything on wakeup there's a chance to autoblock every wakeup
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    I hate to rain on the parade, but I have to ask the question, is this guy legit, or could he be using macros? I don't play on GGPO much at all so I don't know the people there so apologies if I'm being unfair on the guy, just as far as online is concerened to me, you are guilty until proven innocent.

    I had trouble even getting the low strong to link with the dash punch at times, and from what I understand you need to walk forward two frames between the dash punch and low strong, and then input the srk with some godlike speed. To say that the top Japanese players even struggle to do this and some random guy online I've not heard of can do it no problem everytime or whatever sounds fishy to me.

    What I don't understand is why you would even attempt such a risky combo. You can do the same thing but substitute low strong for low forward and it's like a million times easier, and probably does the same damage/stun (that's the one I do actually)


    Replace super with fierce DP etc.

    Actually kinda tempted to pick up Ryu, the dash punch gives you some cool options.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    I hate to rain on the parade, but I have to ask the question, is this guy legit, or could he be using macros? I don't play on GGPO much at all so I don't know the people there so apologies if I'm being unfair on the guy, just as far as online is concerened to me, you are guilty until proven innocent.

    I had trouble even getting the low strong to link with the dash punch at times, and from what I understand you need to walk forward two frames between the dash punch and low strong, and then input the srk with some godlike speed. To say that the top Japanese players even struggle to do this and some random guy online I've not heard of can do it no problem everytime or whatever sounds fishy to me.

    What I don't understand is why you would even attempt such a risky combo. You can do the same thing but substitute low strong for low forward and it's like a million times easier, and probably does the same damage/stun (that's the one I do actually)


    Replace super with fierce DP etc.

    Actually kinda tempted to pick up Ryu, the dash punch gives you some cool options.

    It would be a pretty complicated setup, if he designed a macro on a programmable controller that activates at the touch of a button.

    Linking a low strong after a dash punch is pretty easy, it's the walking forward part that's hard. Ryu can link all of his buttons after a dash punch, assuming you are still in range to connect with the follow-up normal. Inputting an SRK after a cr.strong isn't difficult at all, and doesn't require as much hand speed as you might think. It's no difficult than Ryu's OG hit confirm into SRK after a st.short ~ cr.short.

    It's probably not worth the risk in a tournament situation, but it's a pretty impressive combo to pull out for casuals. I suppose if you're REALLY getting the timing down that day, and you practice that combo night and day, it might be useable in a tournament setting, but the vast majority of Ryu's stick with tried and true combos that are much safer if they whiff.
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    Hmm, maybe the execution is just beyond me and the thing is just to assume the worst - but I thought I'd have heard of someone with this good execution before, or heard about him at tournaments. Is he just a bedroom warrior?

    I was just thinking because I've been told that some people actually do play on keyboards, and if you do then you have a lot of buttons available for macros to be stored.

    I guess nothing is off limits. I mean if I hadn't seen it myself I'd have said the Daigo parry was virtually impossible.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Not sure. But generally-speaking, the well-known Japanese players that hop on GGPO usually play in local tournaments as well. It's not like there's not an arcade scene for ST in Japan.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    snip
    I agree with you.

    Well, we naturally can't know if he uses a macro or just has the muscle memory down. Or showing that online is the one main objective of his life. But I do not think it is a game changer.

    You got it right: you have to walk for 2 frames and immediately enter ↓ ( or ↘, ↙) + Strong. It is really hard to get that right even if it does do more damage out of all other options. I do not think it really matters if one online player from the other side of the world gets it right or not. We already know how hard it is and what other options we have, so we all can decide if we will mind trying it or keep on working on the several other aspects of Ryu's game.

    That said, the combo only works on crouching characters, that's why you will almost never see it being used in matches, but on desperation. You are better off using the true and tested cross-up RH->cr.Strong hit-confirm 99% of the time. That's what almost every top-notch Ryu player uses.

    The only exception I can think of is that trying such things at the beginning of the round gives you lots of meter, which we know greatly changes a number of match-ups. In addition to it, it may detach Claw's weapon, which might be handy if you are able to push him all the way to the other side of the screen and turtle there.

    PS: Fierce SRK would not work in the combo you linked. You'd also need to walk for 2 frames before that cr.Fwd. But one can use cr.Strong -> cr.RH (xx Short Tatsu for meter and position), cr.Strong -> cr.Fwd xx Fierce Hadou, or even cr.Strong -> cr.Short -> whiff rush punch and throw (OS SRK if you've trained that). Crouching RH adds lots of stun and stun timer, so it is always a good combo ender, IMHO.
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    Oh ok. I'm sure I've linked a jab DP before at the end of that combo and assumed fierce would work too.

    Also something cool. I always thought the WW jab DP was 1 hit, but I did it at point blank range to Blanka and it hit twice and did like 50% damage :O
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Oh ok. I'm sure I've linked a jab DP before at the end of that combo and assumed fierce would work too.
    Jab doesn't work, either. Unless you once walked before cr.Fwd. Both frame and hitbox data are the same until Ryu loses invulnerability.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    That said, the combo only works on crouching characters.
    he does the super hard version (dash into standing shoto opponent from the front) just as easy

    ERROR, ERROR, DOES NOT COMPUTE.

    Since Papasi is Asian (I think), I'm inclined to believe him more.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    That said, the combo only works on crouching characters

    OSBR's Brazilian english. He must be saying something else.
    Even the thread that he quoted here

    http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.ph...-discussion-thread.18486/page-18#post-6154575

    scroll down a few posts and you'll see pasky's demonstration.

    You guys must have never spectate Mysterious Fighter live on ggpo.
    He's the real deal.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    ERROR, ERROR, DOES NOT COMPUTE.

    Since Papasi is Asian (I think), I'm inclined to believe him more.
    I mean aerial RH into rush punch, which is how the combo starts in Zero1's video.

    Edit: just check the follow-up:
    You are better off using the true and tested cross-up RH->cr.Strong hit-confirm 99% of the time.
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    Paused the actual .fba file on my cpu, to see what Ryu did on the first frame of block ; just to check if I pressed a direction in that frame or whatever. Here's the result. Ryu's starting to block, although the input is nothing. Thing starts to get really hard to refute... But still give your thoughts, if there's something I miss.
    671300abus.png
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Isn't this myth from like, ten years ago or something
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    512 Moves
    In classic Street Fighter 2 there's a small chance that you'll get a special move simply by pressing an attack button. Since the odds of this happening are 1 in 512, these are called, "512 Special Moves."
    I couldn't spot any 512 Moves in the video myself, but if you see a mysterious Sonic Boom or Sumo Missile this could explain it.

    512 Guard
    In the same fashion as the above glitch, there's a small chance that you'll automatically block even if you weren't holding back on the joystick. This can happen even if you were recovering from a move, too.


    Source:

    http://curryallergy.blogspot.mx/2007/08/classic-sf2-video-nagoyan.html



    Maybe 512 Guard is still around in ST ?



    edit:

    I know these two are still in ST


    Okiseme Throws
    This one was unfamiliar to me so I can only offer conjecture:
    When a character gets to their feet after being knocked down, there's a brief window where they are immune to throws. If you attempt to throw them at a precise moment, however, the game will sometimes (randomly?) ignore this immunity. See pt.12 @ 8:48 for a clear example.

    Blanka's Semi-Unblockable Bush Buster
    Instant (aka zero frame) attacks have a 50% chance of being unblockable if they're done close enough. It's like the attack is so quick that your opponent doesn't have time to put their arms up to block. Take a look at pt.10 @ 0:44 to see an example of this.
    This phenomenon persisted all the way through SSF2T. Here's a list of zero frame moves:
    WW Blanka - vertical jump fierce
    Any Blanka - horizontal and vertical balls
    HF, SSF2, O.ST Ryu and Ken - air hurricane kick
    Akuma - air hurricane kick
    HF Zangief - quick lariat


    edit edit:


    hows that for a twist in the story lol ?
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    Yeah that 512 stuff ! Problem is, I do the exact same thing (blocking on neutral) just after that one in the picture. Odds are now 1/262144 to perform the move twice in a row. Damn, I should have play the lotery instead !
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Wolmar, thank you for your effort. The test seems to be a good one of having the input be in a downward direction (does it not work without left/right and down?).

    However the screenshot is not any better than your original video. The video would be much better if it were slowed down, looped, then paused and frame-advanced. You can do all that and more with TRUST. In particular, TRUST has the input display integrated into the emulation itself. I'm not familiar with Input Watcher or how you went about making the video, but in TRUST you can script it and share that so anyone else can get the exact same repeatable results. If you have questions, I can take you through it. I showed djfrijoles yesterday, and now he is an expert. Hopefully I can show Afro Legends too at some point.

    In any case, this is NOT something "the Japanese" know about. I still doubt the theories mentioned. Please give me something I can repeat your results with, in the form of a script made with TRUST. In the past week I've asked TZW, Mattsun, and Sasori, and none of them knew anything about it. When I researched the wall dive, I noticed that it takes a few frames to block, ie from the frame you start holding a blocking direction until your character actually blocks (ie he is able to go into the state of blockstun).

    Being able to pause, and then frame-advance, counting the frames as you go makes this possible (and convenient-- considering the amount of study we like to do for this old game, I cannot tell you the amount of joy you'll experience when you realize that you can PAUSE the context of the game's actual flow and animation, advance exactly and only one frame, and have time to notice BOTH the inputs for that frame AND what is happening on the screen. You advance another single frame, notice the changes, and go make a sandwich, come back all relaxed, all the tension is gone, it's so stress-free.

    Anyway, seeing that blocking may take several frames all became clear when trying to block claw's wall dive when I tested it; when claw presses punch in the air, (to hit high, coming from his far wall, and close to the crossup line) is generally the same frame you have to start blocking-- in fact, I think you can just press block on ONLY that same frame, and let go of the stick (ie neutral)-- that means that when his claw connects, and you actually block it (you see the yellow blocking spark visual effect at the point of impact), occurs at a frame 3 or 4 frames AFTER the frame where he pressed punch in the air and you blocked (and let go of block the very next frame).

    If I can see your video's example of the opponent going from a down direction to neutral and still block a high attack in TRUST, with its integrated input display, I don't think I could deny this anymore.

    XSPR
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    Problem is, when I start trust, it reboots my cpu :/ Plus I don't have a partner to test that offline with...
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • KyouyaKyouya SSF2T Joined: Posts: 173
    This is no dream ; only research about what could be a new technology in that game. And it seems there IS somekind of technique (Neoray just confirmed that), just nearly impossible to get consistently, just exactly as I thought from the beginning of it all.
    You didn't missreaded, i said it and i don't think thats not true, i was just talking with frijoles about if that is a 1 frame thing, then it will be almost impossible to get it consistently. In fact i was writing that in this thread when neoray started to explain it so i didn't post anything.

    Even if you can get it 100% of the times, the other guy only need to change the timing just a couple of frames and the game will eat your neutral block and well you will be dead, i think thats something similar of what mao was doing against damdai, mao knew that damdai was doing the double reversal against the wall dive, so he did the wall dive a certain way so the game ate damdai inputs and got hit by it.

    That's why i agree with neoray, this is interesting but sincerely i think is a waste of time.

    Sorry about the late response, i was busy last week.
    Strike First, Strike Hard, Show No Mercy.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    At the very least, with the potential this holds, we should at least confirm if it's a waste of time to practice learning it for practical competition, wouldn't you agree? Once we know the exact mechanics or timing to perform this, and how consistently it could be used, then it will be worth giving a real judgment.
  • KyouyaKyouya SSF2T Joined: Posts: 173
    Of course, im not saying that it doesn't need to be tested, experimented, etc.

    Oh well i was going to wrote a long post about it but i changed my mind, in the end im not a big fan of theory fighter.
    Strike First, Strike Hard, Show No Mercy.
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    "Input delay" definitely makes capturing only the initial blocking frame incomplete, you need at least the 4 frames before it as well to see the input data it was actually working with.

    And in case anyone misconstrues my meaning behind "input delay", there are several (4 iirc) frames after the game registers an input and the change is visible on screen. Sometimes memory contents change before this, but generally the state is only updated the 4 frames after the input. This is true of the arcade game as well as emulation, from what I understand.
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    Doesn't seem like it would be a viable technique to use in a real match, but certainly interesting from a technical standpoint.
    But you know, I don't even know how the fuck Boxer gets back up on his feet while doing jabs when holding down. I can perform it manually, but I have no idea how the fuck it works. (Aside from people saying something vague about kara cancelling a crouching short or something, but not really going into the details.)

    EDIT:
    Hm, I've got a theory, but no way to test if it's true. At least I can't think of a way.

    So when you cross someone up, they can already start to turn around (that is, the sprite will go into the turning around animation) but when they get hit, they are still turned in their original direction.
    Maybe because you go into the neutral animation it skips the turn around and the game gets confused somehow, as to which way the character is facing. And then somehow I guess the game decides that facing both ways means you should just block.
    Not really an explanation, but maybe it's something like this.

    How the hell you can cancel the jump startup into blocking is actually more confusing to me.
    Roald Dhalsim
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    fluxcore's post describes what I noticed while researching the wall dive. If you see your character go from a neutral state on one frame, to a blocking state on the next frame, it's because you blocked a few frames earlier. And you could have let go of the blocking input direction in between the time you blocked and the time the game starts displaying it. That also takes into account that there is something TO block (and your character is not otherwise just walking back/forward).

    If someone believes this is possible- to block by pressing neutral, please show us by using something with integrated input display like TRUST.
    Problem is, when I start trust, it reboots my cpu :/ Plus I don't have a partner to test that offline with...

    Sorry to hear that. What OS are you using? Please tell me details next time on ggpo, message or post in TRUST thread.
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    Paused the actual .fba file on my cpu, to see what Ryu did on the first frame of block ; just to check if I pressed a direction in that frame or whatever. Here's the result. Ryu's starting to block, although the input is nothing. Thing starts to get really hard to refute... But still give your thoughts, if there's something I miss.
    671300abus.png
    Don't forget about emulator and USB lag. It could be that you pressed a direction 2 or 3 frames ago, and it takes that time for the game to do anything. In other words, you pressed a direction and let go, 2 frames passed and then the move came out because of the delay.

    Until this is proved on a CPS2 board with a programmable pad, I don't believe it

    Also to test the 512 thing, you could enable turbo on a TE stick (20 Hz right?) and hold it down for 52 seconds. That will give you over 1024 inputs which in theory should give you two random special moves, right?
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    Don't forget about emulator and USB lag. It could be that you pressed a direction 2 or 3 frames ago, and it takes that time for the game to do anything. In other words, you pressed a direction and let go, 2 frames passed and then the move came out because of the delay.

    Until this is proved on a CPS2 board with a programmable pad, I don't believe it

    Also to test the 512 thing, you could enable turbo on a TE stick (20 Hz right?) and hold it down for 52 seconds. That will give you over 1024 inputs which in theory should give you two random special moves, right?


    If someone manages to get this working relatively consistently with a programmable pad on an emulated version then ill go buy some and test on my board...

    Edit: well, if thy have a convincing video... ... What wolmar's showing isnt convincing enough...I'd still also have to work out how to activate the programable pads at the same time.... (do they exist with 2 ports for programming both players...?)
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    fluxcore's post describes what I noticed while researching the wall dive. If you see your character go from a neutral state on one frame, to a blocking state on the next frame, it's because you blocked a few frames earlier. And you could have let go of the blocking input direction in between the time you blocked and the time the game starts displaying it. That also takes into account that there is something TO block (and your character is not otherwise just walking back/forward).

    If someone believes this is possible- to block by pressing neutral, please show us by using something with integrated input display like TRUST.



    Sorry to hear that. What OS are you using? Please tell me details next time on ggpo, message or post in TRUST thread.

    Maybe it's similar to neutral blocking an attack string? Like when someone gets linked combos, and you block the first hit, can let go of the stick and it blocks the rest.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
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