Blocking xups everytime ?

13

Comments

  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Maybe it's similar to neutral blocking an attack string? Like when someone gets linked combos, and you block the first hit, can let go of the stick and it blocks the rest.

    But auto-block only activates when you block the first hit. I can't comprehend how that would activate when you DON'T block, and just stay in neutral on the first frame.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    It's because mr.dhalsim said about the game going from block state to non-blocking state in a matter of frames. When you get hit, you're in block state, and if you let go while they're still attacking, you're stuck in block state until you change direction, like forward breaking your block. Perhaps during the cross up you're in block state, and when you go to neutral you're still stuck in that block state during the hit since you didn't change direction to break block state, but if you try to "block" in the wrong direction, it breaks that neutral block state you get during a hit string. So maybe what's supposed to work is hold back if they're trying to cross up from the front, and right before it hits, go to neutral, rather than swapping block sides. Closest thing I can think of that might make sense, and that's only if this neutral blocking during a cross up works. Holding up to jump and then going neutral makes no sense, I have a hard time accepting that as a "glitch" of some sorts.

    Anyway, if it's close to what I hypothesize based on the info we have about neutral blocking, then it would still take a level of skill to execute and knowledge of cross up setups. Also, I still don't think this would work for ambiguous cross ups like O.Ryu's air tatsu or Claw's wall dive, especially not wall dive because of how the Claw player can move back and forth during a wall dive, effectively changing the side needed to block.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Until someone sets it up in TRUST and provides a script, this theory stands in doubt. Wolmar's test and setup was good (down direction held until neutral), however it's better to set that up in TRUST to confirm AND if there's a video, to PAUSE the script right before it happens, and slowly frame-advance through the sequence of frames. Pausing and frame-advancing with integrated input display is important because it allows the viewer to see BOTH the game's action frames AND the inputs for each frame. And if the viewer has the script, we can experiment further and play around with the possibilities more. Use a save state where both characters start from their positions at the start of a round (so we don't need to send around savestates and can just post the script here).

    I think Moonchilde has the right idea and described what I basically meant- during the cross-up, you INPUT a direction to enter a block state-- and by the time the game actually recognizes this and displays your character in block-stun (ie your character looks like he is blocking), during THAT particular frame of displaying the first block-stun animation frame, you don't need to be holding a direction anymore because you've already blocked it a few frames ago. However, Wolmar's test has him inputting DOWN (plus a side direction for a diagonal- not sure if this is necessary or not) so that is a good test because if this "neutral blocking" thing doesn't work, he should be getting hit (or missed/whiffed by deejay's jumping kick), and shouldn't be able to block it because he's crouching.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    Or me, mrdhalsim's explanation makes this mystery feel 80% solved if even true to begin with. At this point im just interested in the technical aspects behind it like what bob sagat said.

    Also i bet it has 1 frame timing and frameskipping would guarantee you miss many opportunities... Its a bit off topic but i do have a question about trust now.

    I recall you suggesting someone try making their own savestate for the scripts, but if its for something really timing specific (1 frame link) its sometimes impossible to land if the frame skip happens to land on your input window i dont think of trust can get around that, so for something like this i think asking for a script may not be enough. you'd need the savestate too...

    Edit. Im a retard. I just read over your post again and see you already addressed the last part

    Edit 2: no, i was right the first time unless you have a default savestate with the characters at the start of the round... Also, I realized something else. If you have made such a default savestate, you should also pinpoint the frameskips so people can test certain things isolating these frameskips as variables...
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    The frameskip issue doesn't seem to affect much in terms of sharing TRUST scripts. I think. In any case you can let the script loop a few times and look for changes to see if that's the case (it loops by default). Schafly posted a script to help us train for reversal throw timing (Chun vs. Ryu). Researching the window of opportunity, without sharing the same savestate, I found that it allowed only two frames of opportunity to get the throw (i.e., in the setup of the script, Ryu only has two frames to reversal throw on, and if he presses the button outside that two-frame window, he'll get hit instead of throw). I reproduced his script and if I remember correctly, he noted the same frames (frames 152 and 153, specifically). It doesn't prove it outright but from what I understand, the frameskipping is ERRATIC and has a random element. Finding which frames get skipped would seem like a VERY difficult task, at best (many frames of character animations overlap each other, etc). Also, when we all watched MAO get like 4 or 5 reversal throws in a row that one round during Evo/ToL this summer (I think against a boxer? maybe Afro Legends, can't recall right now), I'm not sure that ST's skipped frames affected it. I.e. it looked like he got it very consistently. I could be wrong but I remember coming to that conclusion in the past few months.

    A good way to test it out would be to mess around with the default TRUST custom slot script of Guile vs. Zangief where you have one frame to reversal flash kick his tick into spd. Try it a few times with pausing, noting inputs during frame advance, and look for inconsistencies over loops of the same script etc.

    As for sharing savestates, where possible, I now officially encourage users of TRUST to just share a script and work from the start of a round where both characters have not moved and let the script move them into exact starting positions. So if a particular setup distance is required, just have the script move each character into position. That way you can just write a comment at the top of the script like # Make a savestate with P1 as Chun Li and Ryu as P2, from starting positions, etc.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    Im having a late lunch right now so i cant really pull it up for you. (ill do it later if you want) but somewhere on the wiki/nki's website has frameskip patterns for the different turbo speeds... So, no, it isn't completely random and if you have a default savestate you can theoretically find the first 3 frameskips by comparing frame data and extrapolate the rest following the repeating pattern.

    Im assuming when you loop the script you load the savestate? So it will behave exactly the same way if yoj load the state because youbstart from the exact same point in the frameskip pattern... There are a couole of combos in ST which have 1 frame timing, and sometimes its IMPOSSIBLE to do because of the frameskip. You should program one of those combos. Keep looping the scriot to make sure it keeps working... Then load the script a few times while creating new savestates... If i understand how the ST system and how trust works correctly, you should see that sometimes when you use completely different saveststes the combo will drop

    For reversal throwing, yes you have 2 frames, if a frame is skipped you end up having only 1 frame. So its still possible to do. Samr thing with regular reversals which i can get consistently too

    With a combo that has a 1 frame link then it becomes impossible to do and that should be your measure i think... Both of yoj happened ti have your savestate so the frameskip didnt line up with the reversal throw. If you find that pattern, you can increment your script 1 frame at a time until youve reached the maximum time between frameskips according to those patterns and you should see that one of those times (or more) youll only have 1 frame to reversal

    Edit: aill look up those frameskip patterns for you now...
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    http://dammit.typepad.com/blog/2010/05/turbo-speed-frameskip-continued.html

    Sorry for miscrediting earlier... I just googled the pqge above... I still feel i first saw this information somewhere else though (and just now i scanned through it to make sure it is what i think it is but i wasnt that careful with it so maybe its not relavent)

    Edit: heres another one, formatted more similar to how i remember it but i still dont think this is the site i originally saw
    http://combovid.com/?p=5002

    Hope this helps, oh and use chuns LL too see which frames are skipped
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Those are good links, however we only have to find one instance of whether or not this is possible (ie on a frame that doesn't get skipped, if that affects this).

    "Any controls held or not held before the skip remain that way during the skip." (Maj's report, 3rd paragraph)

    Again, there is a default Custom slot in TRUST where you can practice dammit's one-frame reversal flash kick vs. Zangief where you can play around with this, even in a relatively practical setting. In any case, the key point I'd like to make is that, we should do Wolmar's test, except in TRUST or something that has
    1) integrated input display, and 2) pause and frame-advance (so we can see both the inputs AND the displayed game frames for each frame, because at full speed you don't really have time to look and notice (much less study) both. I'll believe this neutral-block-xup thing when I see it clearly performed just once with integrated input display.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    You're right about only needing to find one instance where it works. But it would be a useful tool if you want to isolate and demonstrate the game's eccentricies with frame skips (in which there are quite a few). And it would make trials more consistent again if you had a default savestate.

    Yes, inputs pushed before a frame stays held down, but the input opportunity from that missing frame is still gone (1 frame links are impossible if they land on a frameskip) thats something. And with something this new and strange, if the script fails, you want to identify when the script fails due to a frameskip rather than failing due to another of the game's eccentricies. Because at this point, i think most of us are more interested whats going on under the hood.

    And you have 2 frames for a reversal, not 1. Again, its only 1 frame if it lands on a frameskip. If that gief-guile tick lands on a frameskip you have to be a tiny bit tighter with your timing but its not impossible like a one frame link.

    Edit: I remember asking the question about reversals because i knew one frame links were impossible during a frameskip. http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/things-you-just-dont-understand-about-st.123112/page-4
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    And you have 2 frames for a reversal, not 1.
    It is one frame. People often test it and forget about negative edge.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Random off topic question: So the reversal window is 1 frame in a 45-fps game. Alright, so that's pretty difficult to land. How does frame skipping affect this window? Will it ever shift the reversal window, or eat your input ON the reversal window so it misses half the time?
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    Random off topic question: So the reversal window is 1 frame in a 45-fps game. Alright, so that's pretty difficult to land. How does frame skipping affect this window? Will it ever shift the reversal window, or eat your input ON the reversal window so it misses half the time?

    That was the question i asked in the link i gave. Cuz i know for one frame links it eats your window and i when i asked the question i also "knew" reversals were 1 frame, so my thought process was "maybe i can abuse this and go for meatys more often since sometimes its impossible to reversal" so i asked and ganelonreplied quite quickly saying there are acutally 2 frames which is why it is never impossible to reversal.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Interesting. So at faster speeds, the likelihood that the reversal window becomes 1 frame increases, despite there being 2 reversal frame windows, due to frame skipping.
  • rb-baronrb-baron Joined: Posts: 4
    The F1 key is the frameskip key in FBA. Just pause with the pause key, and press F1 with the desired input held. There is a single frame of input delay in ggpo's fba, so it will take an extra framestep to see the expected action.

    Anyway, I've been testing the neutral blocking with frame stepping and savestates. I haven't found anything yet. I've got Deejay doing crossup MK to a knocked down Ken. I'm timing Ken's directional inputs (i.e. up, down, whatever) so that he is back at neutral exactly as he is standing to take the hit. Nothing I've tried so far as worked. Edit: Oh and btw, I'm using Anniversary Edition with the turbo off.

    Woolmar, if you post the replay file, I can dissect that to find out what happened. It's in the recordings folder of the ggpo directory.
    (Left Right, SOCD stuff)
    Bunk. If you hold left and right simultaneously in ST, the character stands still and won't block.
    And in case anyone misconstrues my meaning behind "input delay", there are several (4 iirc) frames after the game registers an input and the change is visible on screen. Sometimes memory contents change before this, but generally the state is only updated the 4 frames after the input. This is true of the arcade game as well as emulation, from what I understand.

    Eh... no. Moving around in 4 frames delay is like swimming through molasses. It's not subtle. GGPO FBA does have a single frame of input delay, and can have more online depending on your "smoothing" (input delay) setting, but the real deal shouldn't have any program related delay.
    So the reversal window is 1 frame in a 45-fps game
    60.
    How does frame skipping affect this window? Will it ever shift the reversal window, or eat your input ON the reversal window so it misses half the time?

    Turbo frame skip basically just moves your input to the next frame, it doesn't eat them. Whatever else could have happened during the skipped frame still happens, it's just that it won't take new inputs (including negative edge inputs). This would affect a reversal attempt against a meaty attack, but interestingly wouldn't affect a reversal against an actual throw since your opponent is also affected by the frame skip, since they also have to do an input.
    Interesting. So at faster speeds, the likelihood that the reversal window becomes 1 frame increases, despite there being 2 reversal frame windows, due to frame skipping.

    No, there is only one frame for a reversal (the frame that would have been your first vulnerable, not-knocked-down frame). You can do extra inputs to increase the chance you hit that window, but there is only a one frame window regardless.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Turbo frame skip basically just moves your input to the next frame, it doesn't eat them. Whatever else could have happened during the skipped frame still happens, it's just that it won't take new inputs (including negative edge inputs). This would affect a reversal attempt against a meaty attack, but interestingly wouldn't affect a reversal against an actual throw since your opponent is also affected by the frame skip, since they also have to do an input.

    No, there is only one frame for a reversal (the frame that would have been your first vulnerable, not-knocked-down frame). You can do extra inputs to increase the chance you hit that window, but there is only a one frame window regardless.

    I extrapolated my opinion primarily from this:
    The game always leaves in 1 reversal frame during reversal situations so there's always a 100% reversal chance if timed correctly. Without frameskip, there are actually 2 reversal frames in many situations At faster speeds, the second reversal frame is lost but the first never disappears. However, even faster speeds may have some instances with 2 reversal frames but don't count on it, esp. not at tourney standard Turbo 3 (JP).

    Also, inputs aren't ever entirely ignored. If you hold your charge, even when the game is slowed down and inputs are dropped for a moment, then you'll keep it. If you let go, then you lose it.

    I may have read it wrong, but I interpreted it to mean that the game actually has 2 reversal frames, but 1 of them is usually lost due to frame skipping, especially at higher speeds of ST. So essentially, your best bet is to just count on the fact that the game will always have 1 CONSISTENT reversal window, and that you are able to hit it reliably if you're theoretically able to hit the inputs on that frame. So pianoing, double tapping, negative edging, all of that stuff, is still very reliable to use.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    Your last statement brings up that loophole which i was thinking about which theres a possibility of a reversal being impossible due to a frameskip.

    Let me try and make this clear as day:

    Someone does a meaty attack (or one of gief's spds which has a startup) theyve already pressed a button. Their animation is coming out. You're getting up. They're in their active frames FRAMESKIP during that 1 frame window where you can reversal. YOU RE SCREWED OUT OF A REVERSAL no matter how perfect you are or now you piano because one frame earlier you're still waking up. And the frame now youre either in blockstun or taking a hit because the reversal you attempted was impossible.

    Now, the question i asked inthe thread i linked to is: is this scenario possible? Because if so, ima gonna go attempt meaty attacks more often on those people who have their timing down.

    And the answer i got (and with the knowledge of the game i acquired since i asked that question... Which was a while ago ... I agree withthe answer) is a no from ganelon because there are 2 reversal frames unless the game skips 2 in a row.

    Edit: i was replying to rb baron. Not eltrouble... Damn ninjas...
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    ...lots of fine points being brought up here... as rp-baron said, ST runs at 60-fps. As for 1 vs 2 frames for a reversal, it's important to keep in mind there are certain, specific situations where there is a special case of one-frame-reversal (ie you have an opportunity to do a reversal flash kick on one frame between opponent Zangief's tick of low L kick into SPD) but generally, reversals that aren't as strict. For example, as Ryu is getting up from a knockdown, I am pretty sure there are multiple frames- both in the sense of game frames as well as animation frames like him doing the handstand- that you can get a reversal DP from before he gets hittable again. And if you do it on the earliest possible opportunity, he just skips over the remaining animation frames of getting up and goes directly to the first animation frame of the DP. So if you want a practical lesson from all this and want to try more aggressive pressure as opponents get up, it's not just that 1 frame they have in every situation to get out a reversal, but only specific situations (and I don't think there are all that many in ST, offhand).

    Also, just to point out, that with save states, even if you go through the (laborious? hardly worth it?) task of determining which frames are getting skipped or not according to the pattern, the same save state is just going to skip the same frames each time. So I don't think it is worth it to go through the labor of finding which frames are getting skipped or not if you just want to find one instance of it. btw IF you believe this neutral-blocks-xup works and are concerned about it being a skipped frame or not, just try it in Super (not ST) because that game does not skip any frames at all, and something so basic and core to the game engine likely works the same way.

    rp-baron, the "input-delay" seems like a different thing than what you're talking about. I think we are referring to how the game works where, when you press an input on any given frame, it takes a certain number of frames before the game displays it on the screen. For example, in this case blocking a cross-up attempt on strict timing by going to neutral on ONE specific frame (that might get skipped as unessential points out) requires you to go to neutral (from up/down/left/right) on several frames BEFORE that frame actually occurs and is displayed on the screen. (IF it's valid, that is, but that's the theory.) Actually I'm pretty sure this several frames is the way ST works in general as I noticed it directly during testing the wall dive stuff. EDIT i.e. if you try to block a wall dive by REACTING it will be too late; you have to GUESS-- you MUST GUESS left or right (and that it's a wall dive and not the air grab one)-- because if you don't block BY THE SAME FRAME that claw presses the punch button to spread his arms, you will get hit. In fact you can block ON the exact same frame he presses the punch button, LET GO of the stick and it will show you in block stun even though for several frames your character is in neutral/not inputting anything. btw I think in A2 this phenomenon also occurred and allowed for Valle's exploit because it takes so many frames to block from a standing position (like 12 frames or so? a fifth of a second); so in A2 if you're just outside sweep range or within sweep range of your opponent, you just waited for them to stand up, activate your CC, and they won't be able to block your sweep as a first attack of it.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    In case anybody was looking for clarification from me, I stand by my findings: the reversal frame is always available, and there are 2 reversal frames at slower speeds and other situations. I'm not sure the 2 properties are related though. The latter is trivial to test on an emulator.

    For the former, I performed save state frame-by-frame tests for the exact same knockdown situation on JP T3 with each test identical in every way except starting one frame later than the last. I haven't calculated the frame skipping algorithm myself but I've never heard anyone say T3 skipped less than once every 10 frames. I went further and tested the knockdown at roughly 20 different starting frames in sequence. In those 20 iterations, I got 20 successful reversals. That's how I originally determined that reversals are guaranteed regardless of any frame skipping.

    Let me know if there's any confusion.
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    Being curious, I decided to back this up with evidence.
    Using the 0 frameskip code found at http://www.mamecheat.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4102, mame-rr with macrolua, and a savestate, I scripted Bison to knock down Cammy, then perform meaty cr.mk and have her DP at different frames. I can supply the savestate or make videos if people REALLY think it's necessary.

    Here are the scripts:
    #&7 W10 -_D6.W90.5.W2+L.D.DL.W2.4.! #too early. no dp
    #&7 W10 -_D6.W90.5.W2+L.D.DL.W3.4.! #rev dp
    #&7 W10 -_D6.W90.5.W2+L.D.DL.W4.4.! #rev dp
    #&7 W10 -_D6.W90.5.W2+L.D.DL.W5.4.! #too late, dp stuffed

    So these data agree with there being 2 possible frames for reversals in the absence of frame skipping. Therefore you should always have at least 1 frame of reversal window available from a knockdown. I'm unsure of these other situations that supposedly have different reversal windows (any evidence of this, or at least some more situations to test?)

    edit: the above is testing without holding down the button, thus the button up is including an extra frame of reversal window. With the button held down, only the third script results in a reversal dp.

    I may put some effort into testing the central theory of this thread using 0 frameskipping to see if there's anything there. I suppose people won't be happy with a simple crossup hk or something though? Does it need to be vega walldive specifically?
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Being curious, I decided to back this up with evidence.
    Using the 0 frameskip code found at http://www.mamecheat.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4102, mame-rr with macrolua, and a savestate, I scripted Bison to knock down Cammy, then perform meaty cr.mk and have her DP at different frames. I can supply the savestate or make videos if people REALLY think it's necessary.
    Did you hold down the button so as to avoid negative edge specials?
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Mr. D, how are you getting input lag? Just curious because if I use MAME-RR, pause it, and use the frame-by-frame tool, if I press the button during an active frame, then the next frame the move starts coming out. If there was 4 frames of input lag of any sort, wouldn't that mean I'd have to advance by 4 frames before I see an attack 5 frame start up meaning it would take 9 frames to get to the active attack hit box? Because when I do it, I press the button, and an attack with 5 start up frames has 5 start up frames and there is no input lag...
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • rb-baronrb-baron Joined: Posts: 4
    Did you hold down the button so as to avoid negative edge specials?

    This. I fell into this trap at first, too. There are a lot of mindfucks like this when testing :P
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    Did you hold down the button so as to avoid negative edge specials?

    Hoho! And this is why peer review is important.

    Exactly as you say, when the button is held down, the results differ. And they agree with the negative edge hypothesis; the earlier frame is no longer "reversible".

    #&7 W10 -_D6.W90.5.W2+L.D.DL.W2._4.W5! #too early. no dp
    #&7 W10 -_D6.W90.5.W2+L.D.DL.W3._4.W5! #too early. no dp
    #&7 W10 -_D6.W90.5.W2+L.D.DL.W4._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W10 -_D6.W90.5.W2+L.D.DL.W5._4.W5! #too late, dp stuffed

    I rescind my earlier results! Single reversal frame it is. Justice is restored :)
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Thanks for double-checking! And DSP is wrong, again!
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    As a follow up, I turned frameskip back on and altered my script to still produce reversal timing. I then step through successive number of wait frames before bison's slide, to influence the frameskip that occurs during the script (i.e., whether the reversal frame occurs around a frameskip or not).

    The game rom setting was set to JP "Turbo 3" (equivalent to US Turbo 2) in system configuration (not free select). This is in the default ssf2t rom in mame-rr 139 test2.

    #&7 W11 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL..._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W12 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W13 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp
    &7 W14 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL....._4.W5! #no rev dp available!
    #&7 W15 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W16 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL...._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W17 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL..._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W18 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL..._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W19 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL..._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W20 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp

    The reversal timing shifts around a bit (from a gap of 1f after the downforward position, to 4f after the DF position), i.e. in different frame skip situations the button press could need to be offset up to 3 frames... except for the W14 case, where I was unable to find ANY frame that would allow a reversal.
    I'm a little skeptical since the frame skip interval with ST T3 (JP) is supposedly 2,2,3,2,2,3... (see http://dammit.typepad.com/blog/2011/05/turbo-speed-frameskip-revisited.html) which should imply I'd get at least 3 such cases where I was unable to reversal (in a sample set of 10 frames).

    Any problems with methodology, please chime in. I'm interested in getting ground truth facts here, so want to get things right :)

    edit: turbo frameskip stats updated
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    Which region does trust use? Remember there are slight discrepencies inthe turbo speed names throughout the different regions

    (turbo 3 us = turbo 4 jp etc...)
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    Ok. Here are my current findings for the "blocking crossup every time" "technique".

    Setup:
    SSF2T, mame-rr, frameskip DISABLED.

    Guile on 1p side vs Zangief (for no reason other than I had a savestate with this matchup).

    Guile throws Zangief to the right and then performs J.LK or crossup J.LK to hit meaty as Gief gets up (crossup must be blocked by Gief holding LEFT).

    These scripts have zangief "super perfect block" (press the correct joystick direction on the SINGLE necessary frame to block).
    &1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W43.-L.! crossup, block frame
    &1 W10 R3.W74._R.W25,U.W3.4.W43.-R.! not crossup, block frame

    All good. Gief blocks in both these cases. Inputting the other direction results in the J.LK hitting. All as expected.

    Just to confirm what we already know:
    &1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W43.-LR.!crossup, block frame
    &1 W10 R3.W74._R.W25,U.W3.4.W43.-LR.!not crossup, block frame

    If you were able to input both left and right at the same time, it doesn't matter whether the attack hits crossup or not, it is "double" blockable.

    So now to begin the testing of the "block all xups".

    There are two solid "here's something to test" questions I saw.

    #1) Press up for a single frame at some point when getting up, and the act of returning to neutral makes you block crossups.

    Here's a sweep of plenty of frames around the "super perfect block" frame:
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W36.-U.! #7 frames earlier. fails.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W37.-U.! #6 frames earlier. fails.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W38.-U.! #5 frames earlier. fails.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W39.-U.! #4 frames earlier. fails.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W40.-U.! #three frames earlier. fails.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W41.-U.! #two frames earlier. fails.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W42.-U.! #one frame earlier. fails.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W43.-U.! #crossup, basic up test on "super perfect block" frame. fails.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W44.-U.! #one frame later. fails.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W45.-U.! #2 frames later. fails.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W46.-U.! #3 frames later. fails.

    Zangief gets hit in all cases.

    #2) Hold up while being knocked down, release into neutral to block crossups.

    Another timing sweep:
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W38.-^U.W10! #zangief hit
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W39.-^U.W10! #zangief hit
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W40.-^U.W10! #zangief hit
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W41.-^U.W10! #zangief hit
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W42.-^U.W10! #zangief hit
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W43.-^U.W10! #"super perfect block" frame, zangief hit
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W44.-^U.W10! #zangief hit
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W45.-^U.W10! #zangief hit
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W46.-^U.W10! #zangief hit
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W47.-^U.W10! #zangief hit
    #&1 W10 R3-_U.+W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.W48.-^U.W10! #zangief hit


    So far, as mythbusters would say, so far it's looking busted. The claim is it should work on "all crossups" so chars etc shouldn't really matter.

    If people picked up other ideas on how this technique is performed, I can probably test them out.
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    *snip*

    Can you try my idea? The idea was block as normal, i.e. hold back, but before the cross up hits, let go. The idea is that possibly as the attack animation starts, the game puts you into block, and then it stays in block as you go to neutral and it auto blocks. Kind of like how when someone forces you to be in block mode, and they maintain a block string you can let go and the game keeps blocking. Not that I think this would work, I think the whole thing is BS but whatever.

    Can you also try Down instead of Up?

    Thanks for confirming this.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    Tested Down instead of up, Zangief still got hit in all cases.

    Also tested your idea, which is to hold R while getting up (which would block a non-crossup, but not a crossup), then letting go of the stick at varying frames around the 'wakeup' point, i.e.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.-_R.W41.^R.!
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.-_R.W42.^R.!
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.-_R.W43.^R.!

    (again, with frameskipping OFF)

    If people are interested in what these scripts are doing, the basic explanation that &n is load save state n, Wn is wait for n frames, LRDU are directions, 123456 are the buttons (except after a W), - is switch to p2 input, _ is hold the following input, ^ is release the following input. Period is advance a frame.
    So these scripts are saying "p1 guile press right and fierce (for a throw), wait a bit, hold right and wait a bit (walking), press up while still holding right to jump up/right, wait a tiny bit, do J.LK. Switch to Zangief, hold right (to block a non crossup), wait, let go of right".

    I tried more values than this, but none of them resulted in Zangief blocking.

    Some technical details I've noticed while investigating this: Zangief's "player 2 character state" memory value (at address 00FF8851) while being thrown is 20, and it stays this value until the 'wakeup' frame, whereupon it can be 0 (neutral), 8 ("blocking"), or some other values. If Zangief is hit by a meaty, he enters neutral for a frame before entering state 14 (being hit). No 'turning around' (value 6) occurs until *after* he has recovered from the crossup meaty attack (or been allowed to enter neutral), it's "I'm knocked down" all the way up until wakeup, even if he's holding a direction, Guile is attacking, or anything. No 'proximity guard' type effect seems to occur while knocked down. It's possible no inputs are really being considered until the neutral frame?

    I say state 8 is "blocking" with quotes because it only seems to be 'entered proximity blocking state'. If Zangief wakes up CROUCH blocking the correct direction, he still enters state 8 for a frame and THEN gets hit. Likewise, if he high blocks a low attack, he enters state 8 for a frame before being hit. I had hoped this state 8 was enough of a 'correct block' flag that I could use that as a test, but not quite. I have yet to determine the CPU instruction address which is the "successful block" case.
    I have a hunch that this state 8 might have something to do with blocking giving extra frame advantage to the attacker (the attackee is put in state 8 AGAIN for a single frame after recovering from state 14 [being hit], and no such additional state occurs for being hit). I have to do some frame counting before I can confirm this though.

    Another potentially interesting thing (although completely off topic) is that a throw tech doesn't put the character that teched in state 20 (thrown), but in state 14 (hit). Almost as if it converts the throw into a hit of some kind. Certainly no "takes the damage from the throw and then regains health" occurs during a tech. Death from a tech throw either leaves the character that teched in state 0 (neutral) or 20 (thrown) [not sure why it varies at times]. Never the 14 that a tech throw puts them in. Strange stuff.

    Anyone else who has fiddled around with memory in SF2 games may want to chime in at this point and tell me I'm hopelessly naive and should be looking at other memory addresses X Y and Z. Please do. :)
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Also tested your idea, which is to hold R while getting up (which would block a non-crossup, but not a crossup), then letting go of the stick at varying frames around the 'wakeup' point, i.e.
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.-_R.W41.^R.!
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.-_R.W42.^R.!
    #&1 W10 R3.W73._R.W26,U.W3.4.-_R.W43.^R.!

    So I take it these all got hit as well? That settles that, myth busted. I don't think there is any other possibility we've overlooked.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Ok. Here are my current findings for the "blocking crossup every time" "technique".
    Setup:
    SSF2T, mame-rr, frameskip DISABLED.
    If people picked up other ideas on how this technique is performed, I can probably test them out.

    Great research and report! Great explanation of how you went through and explained it thoroughly too, even including the script notation itself. (For anyone still hesitant to jump in and try it for himself, notice also that fluxcore's scripts are basically the same one-line script each time, with SLIGHT variances, i.e. "Wait 41 frames" becomes "Wait 42 frames" on the next line, etc.)

    I just wish Wolmar could have tried this out himself directly when he made his video- it was a good method, but apparently something wasn't quite right. Any comment Wolmar? If you like, you can still try your method and see if you can get it to block from down (or down+left / down+right) to neutral.

    Moonchilde I don't remember now, but maybe it had to do with my particular setup, and I wouldn't call it "input lag" per se, just the way the game works- but if you don't see the start up then I'll take your word for it, maybe what I was noticing was actually the game deciding whether to have my character start walking or the first frame of blockstun.

    As for the frameskip disabling, is that a script just telling YOU which frames get skipped or not? Or is it forcing the game to NOT skip the frames that it wants to? I haven't messed around with any of that yet. You indicate that when it was on, a reversal DP was possible only on one frame for that particular scenario, but when you turned frameskip off (disabled frameskip), you were able to get multiple possible frames to get a reversal DP? Did I read that right?
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    I just wish Wolmar could have tried this out himself directly when he made his video- it was a good method, but apparently something wasn't quite right. Any comment Wolmar? If you like, you can still try your method and see if you can get it to block from down (or down+left / down+right) to neutral.

    I assume there was a L/R direction input in there somewhere which corresponded to correct blocking at the right time, but it's hard to know...
    Moonchilde I don't remember now, but maybe it had to do with my particular setup, and I wouldn't call it "input lag" per se, just the way the game works- but if you don't see the start up then I'll take your word for it, maybe what I was noticing was actually the game deciding whether to have my character start walking or the first frame of blockstun.

    I'm not quite sure what you're talking about, but from what I can tell if you block incorrectly (i.e. walk into the crossup) there is 1 frame of walk animation before the hit takes effect. This doesn't seem to exist when blocking it correctly.
    As for the frameskip disabling, is that a script just telling YOU which frames get skipped or not? Or is it forcing the game to NOT skip the frames that it wants to? I haven't messed around with any of that yet. You indicate that when it was on, a reversal DP was possible only on one frame for that particular scenario, but when you turned frameskip off (disabled frameskip), you were able to get multiple possible frames to get a reversal DP? Did I read that right?

    The 'frameskip disabled' is a MAME cheat code that dammit/d9x made which allows tweaking of the turbo value down to the speed of SSF2. Basically if there are normally TURBO 0/1/2/3 settings, then this is NORMAL, haha! It stops all the frameskipping from happening, anyway, which is very useful for testing things out IMO. Basically testing reversals without frameskipping should give you the same results every time, no matter where or when you perform the setup. And so far they do - there's 1 and only 1 frame you can input a reversal on (at least, on knockdown, still not sure about these other cases that supposedly have different reversal windows...?). Anyway, that frame always exists in the absence of frameskipping.

    With frameskipping ON (i.e. Turbo), you expect to see some variation of the timing for the reversal window based on how many frames were skipped through the duration of the script up to that point. So if you wait n number of frames before the initial action in the script, the script will probably need to be slightly different than if you wait n+1 frames first, simply due to how the frameskip pattern falls during it.
    What I *didn't* expect to find was that so many reversal frame opportunities still existed. I had thought that if roughly 1 frame was skipped out of 4, you should lose 1 in 4 of your reversal frames too. So being unable to find a reversal frame only once out of ten script start positions is surprising to me.
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    With thr reversal thing, again keep in mind that theres more than 1 frame. And the frameskip pattern is 32 frames so the only time theoretically where you cant find a reversal frame is if the frameskip pattern starts and ends with a frameskip

    Eg 1001001001001001.....001
    Where 1 is a frameskip and 0 is not. At the end of the 32 sequence pattern is the only place where you dont get a reversal frame. Because when the sequence is looped it will have a segment like

    0011001001
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Does the state 8 happen whenever anyone blocks, whether they get hit or not?

    It almost sounds like a conditional.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    With thr reversal thing, again keep in mind that theres more than 1 frame. And the frameskip pattern is 32 frames so the only time theoretically where you cant find a reversal frame is if the frameskip pattern starts and ends with a frameskip

    Eg 1001001001001001.....001
    Where 1 is a frameskip and 0 is not. At the end of the 32 sequence pattern is the only place where you dont get a reversal frame. Because when the sequence is looped it will have a segment like

    0011001001

    Well, my earlier findings in the thread show there is only 1 reversal frame, what evidence do you have that there is more than 1?

    I'll have to think about your claim of the pattern being the reason for missing reversal frames. I guess it would make sense if there are 2 reversal frames, but I don't know why they would make patterns that would allow for that case to occur (not that that means they didn't...)
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    Does the state 8 happen whenever anyone blocks, whether they get hit or not?

    It almost sounds like a conditional.

    Yes, if you are put into proximity blocking (which includes block the right direction but not the right 'height'), the character enters 'state 8'

    It's quite possible it's an animation state value rather than anything more significant. There is definitely code which is doing conditional checking, and it won't be too far from where this 'state 8' is set, but I haven't gone looking yet.
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    So no one has found where collisions are handled?
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    Well, my earlier findings in the thread show there is only 1 reversal frame, what evidence do you have that there is more than 1?

    I'll have to think about your claim of the pattern being the reason for missing reversal frames. I guess it would make sense if there are 2 reversal frames, but I don't know why they would make patterns that would allow for that case to occur (not that that means they didn't...)

    yeah you're right. I was basing my post on your non-edited findings... I didn't realize you edited your post to show there's only 1 reversal frame till just now....

    i'm confused as fuck about how the system works now.

    Can you run a script doing the same thing. to show if 1 frame links drop due to the frameskip?
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    Can you run a script doing the same thing. to show if 1 frame links drop due to the frameskip?

    Yep, that's a very good test to do! I don't suppose you (or anyone else) have an example of a natural 1f link do you? I'd rather not simulate it with a 2f link as the second-to-third hit in a combo if possible, to minimise frameskip weirdness.

    I found a natural 1f link example, conveniently on dammit's site about framedata collection (http://code.google.com/p/macrolua/wiki/FrameDataExamples):
    # cammy cl.MK, far MK (link test)
    &7 W10 5.W28,5.! far MK doesn't come out
    &7 W10 5.W29,5.! far MK combos
    &7 W10 5.W30,5.! far MK doesn't combo

    So I'll try muck around with this example tonight.

    Also, I found http://sonichurricane.com/?p=1864 which mentions the "2f reversal window", but Maj doesn't offer up any evidence for it...
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    The easy answer is yes, 1f links do become impossible due to frameskip.

    The more complex answer is that it seems to be more often affected than the reversal test I did. Here's a longass series of wait period sweep. Everything without a comment was a successful 1f link, any with comments explain where it drops.

    Cammy cl.MK, far MK 1f link
    #&7 W8 5.W23,5.!#22=no far MK, 23=no combo
    #&7 W9 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W10 5.W23,5.!
    #&7 W11 5.W23,5.!
    #&7 W12 5.W23,5.!
    #&7 W13 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W14 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W15 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W16 5.W23,5.!#22=no far MK, 23=no combo
    #&7 W17 5.W23,5.!
    #&7 W18 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W19 5.W23,5.!
    #&7 W20 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W21 5.W22,5.!#21=no far MK, 22=no combo
    #&7 W22 5.W21,5.!
    #&7 W23 5.W21,5.!
    #&7 W24 5.W22,5.!#21=no far MK, 22=no combo
    #&7 W25 5.W21,5.!
    #&7 W26 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W27 5.W22,5.!#21=no far MK, 22=no combo
    #&7 W28 5.W21,5.!
    #&7 W29 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W30 5.W21,5.!#21=no far MK, 22=no combo
    #&7 W31 5.W21,5.!
    #&7 W32 5.W22,5.!#21=no far MK, 22=no combo
    #&7 W33 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W34 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W35 5.W21,5.!#21=no far MK, 22=no combo
    #&7 W36 5.W21,5.!
    #&7 W37 5.W21,5.!
    #&7 W38 5.W21,5.!#21=no far MK, 22=no combo
    #&7 W39 5.W21,5.!
    #&7 W40 5.W21,5.!
    #&7 W41 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W42 5.W23,5.!#22=no far MK, 23=no combo
    #&7 W43 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W44 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W45 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W46 5.W21,5.!
    #&7 W47 5.W22,5.!
    #&7 W48 5.W23,5.!
    #&7 W49 5.W22,5.!#21=no far MK, 22=no combo

    So in some places it gets pretty common to have the link frame drop. I'm not sure how much of this is due to emulation, of course - as I say, the simple answer is "yes, they do become impossible", but how often, or how it compares to reversal drops (I'd have thought they were 1:1), I'm not confident to say at this stage.

    I went back and did a few extra variations on the reversal case too, just to see if it clumps up a bit more like this test did.

    Bison slide, cammy reversal dp
    #&7 W21 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W22 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL..._4.W5! #no rev dp available!
    #&7 W23 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W24 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W25 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL...._4.W5! #no rev dp available!
    #&7 W26 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL...._4.W5! #no rev dp available!
    #&7 W27 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W28 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W29 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W30 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL..._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W31 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W32 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W33 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp
    #&7 W34 -_D6.W70.5.W1+L.D.DL.._4.W5! #rev dp

    Still doesn't seem as prevalent... but those two impossible frames next to each other are even more suspicious, although I've double checked them... very odd!
    There is no knowledge that is not power
Sign In or Register to comment.