Street Fighter ST/AE at Evo

Footsy BebopFootsy Bebop Joined: Posts: 326
I noticed that on the sign up for Evo West SF ST/AE is using console AE, does this mean that championship Bison will be allowed? championship Guile? The original SF chars? or will you be restricting it to ST chars?

Comments

  • CigarBoBCigarBoB Joined: Posts: 895
    Any thing goes bud.

    Hope to see you there. Im sure you will bust some ass with that Honda of yours.
  • Footsy BebopFootsy Bebop Joined: Posts: 326
    is that the official word? cuz CE bison just makes things stupid.
  • dublo7dublo7 Joined: Posts: 205
    Jion_Wansu wrote:
    I just read the rules for Hyper.


    *****************************************************************************
    Hyper Street Fighter 2

    * Game version: US Playstation 2
    * Game Settings: Versus Mode, Turbo 3, 2/3 Rounds, 2/3 Games
    * If both players would like to choose the same World Warrior character, a coin flip will determine which player gets to use the character. The loser of the coin toss will be awarded their choice of side (P1 or P2).
    * Akuma is banned.
    *****************************************************************************

    Why is Akuma banned? Akuma is weak in this game. Just look at characters like WW Guile, CE Bison, etc. Need I say more?


    akuma is banned in all st tournies in north america. i daresay he's banned in japan too.l
    win with him in money matches. $$ :wink: :confused:
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  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    dublo7 wrote:
    akuma is banned in all st tournies in north america. i daresay he's banned in japan too.l
    win with him in money matches. $$ :wink: :confused:

    Actually, he isn't banned in Japan. Not officially, anyhow. It's a soft ban, really. They won't pick him because they consider it dishonorable to do so. I've seen Akuma used in a Japanese tournament DVD before.

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    lol.. im so glad I read this post.. I was looking to pick Akuma as a player... hmm now i gotta decide who to use.. Im good with all of the fighters to a "T" but mostly pick... actully.. I pick any1 lol but why or should I say for what particular reason is Akuma banned for? What are the reasons or main reason of that!?
  • FMJaguarFMJaguar Joined: Posts: 2,728 admin
    ...
    Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don?t mean it?s a tough match?I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is "broken" in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn?t designed to handle. He?s miles above the other characters, and is therefore banned in all tournaments. But every game has a "best character" and those characters are never banned. They?re just part of the game?except in Super Turbo. It?s extreme examples like this that even amongst the top players, and even something that isn?t a bug, but was put in on purpose by the game designers, the community as a whole has unanimously decided to make the rule: "don?t play Akuma in serious matches."
  • Josh-TheFunkDOCJosh-TheFunkDOC Double Dutch! Joined: Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Actually, in one of the Master Secret Cup tourneys in Japan, an Akuma made the final 16. They split the players into 2 pools of 8 and do round-robin, with the top 2 from each pool moving on to the semis.

    Anyway, to make a long story short, the Akuma lost to everyone in his pool except for the lone Gief player. So at the highest level, I'm not really sure how "unbeatable" he truly is. Tiny sample size, I know, but food for thought. *shrug*

    -Josh
    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/live-speedrunning - My live stream, mainly speedruns w/ some other stuff now and then
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    AE is not ST for the last time!!!!
    FMJaguar wrote:
    ...


    Akuma is considered an ST character so if you do not pick an ST character in AE then Akuma cannot tech throw. And characters like CE Vega, CE Sagat, CE Bison, CE Ken, CE Ryu, WW Guile, WW Dhalsim, WW Chun Li, HF Ryu, HF Ken, etc. will own that shoto scrub known as Akuma for free. Plus when he throws the air fireball he does not get pushed into the air, so without timing he will just land on a Tiger, Yoga Fire, Hadouken, etc. and the guy throwing the projectile will be able to block the air fireball. Air fireball is useless against CE Bison, because CE Bison can map the headstomp like WW Bison (I.E. jump so high that he's off the screen until he lands on the opponents head). CE Sagat's Tiger shots are faster than Akuma's. A Dhalsim player can zone Akuma with his long arms. The only thing that would make Akuma banned in Hyper Street Fighter II Anniversary Edition is that he has no recovery time for dizzies. That's about it. So if people don't like that Akuma doesn't get dizzy then yes he should be banned. But if people don't care about Akuma's dizzy properties then Akuma should be playable in the tournament. Like I stated earlier. There are a lot of characters that can and will beat Akuma. You guys have to know all or most of the properties of this game, like which attack has more speed over another and which throw can throw someone out of shorts and jabs, etc.
  • FMJaguarFMJaguar Joined: Posts: 2,728 admin
    Anyway, to make a long story short, the Akuma lost to everyone in his pool except for the lone Gief player. So at the highest level, I'm not really sure how "unbeatable" he truly is. Tiny sample size, I know, but food for thought. *shrug*

    One player of unknown skill enters one tournament that softbans akuma. There's not much to go on there. Does the fact that he lost mean that akuma is fair, or does it mean he wouldn't be a top 256 player if he wasn't allowed to use akuma?

    The situation being discussed here is a tournament with 2 grand in prizes where it's suddenly ok and encouraged for anyone to pick akuma, 3 weeks before the event, in a game where there was 0 effort to allow akuma beforehand. Noone sees a problem with this?
    Jion_Wansu wrote:
    Akuma is considered an ST character so if you do not pick an ST character in AE then Akuma cannot tech throw. And characters like CE Vega, CE Sagat, CE Bison, CE Ken, CE Ryu, WW Guile, WW Dhalsim, WW Chun Li, HF Ryu, HF Ken, etc. will own that shoto scrub known as Akuma for free.

    Who knows it may even be true in the end. Although i'm not sure how characters without reversals (WW) are going to be winning.

    The larger concern is that re-allowing akuma at this point would make the tournament very unstable. In addition to the normal worries everyone has about AE, whether CE characters dominate etc...

    People don't even use akuma online and I don't even know how to pick him in AE, so you would need to start a movement of akuma-allowed tournaments and start gathering data. But keep in mind that by the time you finish all this, CCC2 may come out, players may migrate back to ST and the original scenario where he is banned.
  • NKINKI Mashers Joined: Posts: 1,788
    I think that while Akuma is too good to be in the game and he should be banned, I also feel that he is way over rated. People make it sound like he is just completely unbeatable, but that's not the case. I had to play against a lot of Akumas in Japan, and really he is beatable.

    It's just that he makes the game totally not fun at all. :sad:
    It was a fun ten years.

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  • Saotome KanedaSaotome Kaneda Watch your back Joined: Posts: 5,332 mod
    NKI wrote:
    I think that while Akuma is too good to be in the game and he should be banned, I also feel that he is way over rated. People make it sound like he is just completely unbeatable, but that's not the case. I had to play against a lot of Akumas in Japan, and really he is beatable.

    It's just that he makes the game totally not fun at all. :sad:
    Co-sign. You're playing a completely different game when you fight Akuma. It doesn't help that even a below average player tossing air FBs at the right time can shut down certain characters(Gief ;_;).

    Most of my matches against Akumas have been determined by time over, win and loss. It's fucking stupid and doesn't need to be seen at EVO.
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  • dublo7dublo7 Joined: Posts: 205
    Co-sign. You're playing a completely different game when you fight Akuma. It doesn't help that even a below average player tossing air FBs at the right time can shut down certain characters(Gief ;_;).

    Most of my matches against Akumas have been determined by time over, win and loss. It's fucking stupid and doesn't need to be seen at EVO.

    triple sign. which is why i wanted the money matches in the first place. nothing like going empirical.:wink: :karate:
    -- "Hmmm. Upgrades." -- Neo, Matrix II
    -- "Boards..... don't fight back." -- Bruce Lee, Enter the Dragon
    ^^^dublo7
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I have beaten good Akumas in Anniversary Edition, just not in Super Turbo. We should all vote whether or not Akuma will be in Anniversary Edition. We live in a Democratic Society and not a Dictatorship. So let's make a poll and let the members of SRK vote on whether or not Akuma should be allowed in AE for tournament play.

    Also, is this game going to be on Speed 3 or Speed 4? Speed 4 US version = Speed 3 Japanese Version. Speed 3 for US is Speed 2 for Japanese.
  • Footsy BebopFootsy Bebop Joined: Posts: 326
    If you allow CE Bison in you might as well allow Akuma.

    CE Bison is BROKE!!!!
    He has a move that you have to 50/50 guess on from wake up. And if you guess wrong and he scissor kicks you GAME OVER. Re-dizzy combo, next round.

    It's retarded.

    The properties of that psycho crusher are NOT like they were in the original Champion Edition. Like sometimes if you're taking the full hit from it, the very last hit of it, you have to block the other way. WTF? I'd rather play real CE Bison than AE CE Bison, there's a huge difference.

    I'm surprised I'm the only one who's complaining about this.

    I mean if you're gonna ban anyone, ban CE Bison.

    I agree that Akuma is an especially hard match up for certain characters, but at least you can block his moves, he can't redizzy you.

    And since it seems you guys consider Japanese tournaments to be the standard bearer, have you ever seen AE CE Bison being used in a Japanese tournament?
    If Akuma is dishonerable, AE CE Bison should be too. I agree someone jumping back into his own corner doing Akuma air fireballs is bad, but someone doing what can be virtually an unblockable psycho crusher on you over and over and then redizzying you to death is worse.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    If you allow CE Bison in you might as well allow Akuma.

    CE Bison is BROKE!!!!
    He has a move that you have to 50/50 guess on from wake up. And if you guess wrong and he scissor kicks you GAME OVER. Re-dizzy combo, next round.

    It's retarded.

    The properties of that psycho crusher are NOT like they were in the original Champion Edition. Like sometimes if you're taking the full hit from it, the very last hit of it, you have to block the other way. WTF? I'd rather play real CE Bison than AE CE Bison, there's a huge difference.

    I'm surprised I'm the only one who's complaining about this.

    I mean if you're gonna ban anyone, ban CE Bison.

    I agree that Akuma is an especially hard match up for certain characters, but at least you can block his moves, he can't redizzy you.

    And since it seems you guys consider Japanese tournaments to be the standard bearer, have you ever seen AE CE Bison being used in a Japanese tournament?
    If Akuma is dishonerable, AE CE Bison should be too. I agree someone jumping back into his own corner doing Akuma air fireballs is bad, but someone doing what can be virtually an unblockable psycho crusher on you over and over and then redizzying you to death is worse.


    I agree. I picked Akuma and my opponent picked CE Bison. Guess what? I got owned. Air fireballs don't mean shit to CE Bison.
  • FMJaguarFMJaguar Joined: Posts: 2,728 admin
    I have beaten good Akumas in Anniversary Edition, just not in Super Turbo. We should all vote whether or not Akuma will be in Anniversary Edition. We live in a Democratic Society and not a Dictatorship. So let's make a poll and let the members of SRK vote on whether or not Akuma should be allowed in AE for tournament play.

    Democracy != everyone voting on everything anytime one of like 20,000 people feels like it. The power of democracy is that you can start to develop your pro-akuma case without getting just banned for disagreeing, that you can continue to run your own tournaments with akuma allowed, and continue to represent your side in a non-destructive way without being harassed.

    For some reason recently are skipping that pesky 'work' part of democracy, and think that "Hey I (just now!) thought about this, and heres what i decided, now you go do something about it or else". It doesn't work that way.
    If you allow CE Bison in you might as well allow Akuma.

    Many players feel that CE Bison is beatable, and many have proclaimed that they will not lose to CE Bison. Unlike akuma, who noone has played or practiced against, ever!.

    Anyone who was playing in CE is not suprised by CE Bison, and AE players have been playing against him since the game came out, and generally do not want to play with him banned, as they already have planned the anti- CE Bison portion of their strategy.
  • Footsy BebopFootsy Bebop Joined: Posts: 326
    FMJaguar wrote:
    Many players feel that CE Bison is beatable, and many have proclaimed that they will not lose to CE Bison. Unlike akuma, who noone has played or practiced against, ever!.

    There is plenty of opportunity to play/practice against Akuma online. People do play Akuma online. The same game in which people are practicing CE Bison has Akuma. People have had the same amount of time to play/practice with each character.
    FMJaguar wrote:
    Anyone who was playing in CE is not suprised by CE Bison,

    I was playing back in CE, and I am surprised with CE Bison. Like I said the properties of his psycho crusher are NOT the same as they were in CE. His psycho crusher in AE is totally different and totally broken.
    FMJaguar wrote:
    and AE players have been playing against him since the game came out, and generally do not want to play with him banned, as they already have planned the anti- CE Bison portion of their strategy.

    Where is your proof that people don't want CE Bison banned?
  • FMJaguarFMJaguar Joined: Posts: 2,728 admin
    There is plenty of opportunity to play/practice against Akuma online. People do play Akuma online. The same game in which people are practicing CE Bison has Akuma. People have had the same amount of time to play/practice with each character.

    Akuma has been somewhat banned the entire time, all online akuma matches are treated as irrelavant, and there has been no indication of a need to practice or account for akuma. Online tournaments have not allowed them either.

    Much like playing on Turbo 1, the option is in the game, i've seen people play on it, but noone is actually playing seriously on it expecting to ever need to use it.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Ok then we will not play with Akuma then. I'm going to make a prediction. The top 3 will either have CE Bison, WW Guile, CE Sagat, some form of Vega, some form of Blanka, or some form of Ken. Also, is the game going to be US Turbo 3 or US Turbo 4? ST turbo 0 = AE turbo 1; ST turbo 1 = AE turbo 2; ST turbo 2 = AE turbo 3 and finally ST turbo 3 = AE turbo 4
  • GrahamGraham Joined: Posts: 571
    These predictions amuse me. I see a few characters I believe are powerful but you really underestimate alot of underdog characters. Hopefully my brother and I can prove your predictions wrong when game time comes. CE Bison isn't as powerful as you think, I don't view him as a major threat in the tournament.

    Graham
  • JeRonJeRon The Dictatorship Joined: Posts: 968
    CE Bison puuuulease!!! lol I have various counters for that fool! Agreed with FM's staement AE players have been playing him since the game came out and even before on the Japanese versions of AE.....saying that CE Bison is *cheap* and then wanting to ban him is just plain silly!
    Im looking for people to play that guy on me!
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  • NKINKI Mashers Joined: Posts: 1,788
    Jion_Wansu wrote:
    Speed 4 US version = Speed 3 Japanese Version. Speed 3 for US is Speed 2 for Japanese.
    I haven't confirmed it in AE, but In ST, the American version has speeds 0 through 3, and the Japanese version has speeds 1 through 4.

    So Japanese Turbo 4 is American Turbo 3.

    I would imagine this is the same for AE.
    It was a fun ten years.

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  • JeRonJeRon The Dictatorship Joined: Posts: 968
    People have alot of focus on CE Dictator when there are other characters that far worse to worry about!
    A good CE Guile, Good Hyper Shotos (moreso Ken), Good CE and Hyper Sagat. Good CE Zangief, ST Vega, ST ChunLi, ST Ryu and last but not least ST Rog!
    These characters are all vital threats in AE and should be looked out for. Just my two cents!
    I will win with skill! Quote dedicated to ChunLi Zhang, Strongest woman in the world!
  • GoryusGoryus Joined: Posts: 232
    Can we get some official confirmation on the speed thing?

    ST had three speed settings, Turbo 1-3, but AE has four - Turbo 1-4. This wouldn't be a big deal, except that AE "Turbo 4" equals ST "Turbo 3", so the game will be slower than usual if it is played on the AE "Turbo 3" setting.
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  • GrahamGraham Joined: Posts: 571
    from practicing ce bison a bit, i think he is more of a threat to the older characters. An example would be how they added counter moves into super turbo for his lockdowns like vegas flip kick and balrogs headbutt. In older versions these didnt exist making it very difficult to escape his traps. Now though ce bison is outdated and has counter characters that truly exist unlike back in ce with the exception of guile. Don't get me wrong he is still a good character. I just dont fear him like i did in ce.

    And I hope the speed is turbo 3, its what everyone i know plays on since its not too qucik and not too slow since its the closest you can get to arcade st speed which is what most people enjoy.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    We have a problem: The winner has to keep same character, so if the winner keeps WW Guile, but the loser decides to pick WW Guile then will there be another coin flip and whoever wins the flip gets WW Guile? If loser wins and gets WW Guile then the winner automatically forfeits the round because the winner did not pick the same character...So someone has to clear this up soon.
  • PonderPonder SRK Tournament Director Joined: Posts: 404 admin
    Jion_Wansu wrote:
    We have a problem: The winner has to keep same character, so if the winner keeps WW Guile, but the loser decides to pick WW Guile then will there be another coin flip and whoever wins the flip gets WW Guile?

    There will be no coinflip. The winner must keep WW Guile and the loser is free to choose anyone except WW Guile.
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  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    Ponder wrote:
    There will be no coinflip. The winner must keep WW Guile and the loser is free to choose anyone except WW Guile.

    http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3174759#post3174759

    We're getting restless. Please respond.
  • savalassavalas Relentless Rushdown Joined: Posts: 114
    Jion_Wansu wrote:
    I just read the rules for Hyper.


    *****************************************************************************
    Hyper Street Fighter 2

    * Game version: US Playstation 2
    * Game Settings: Versus Mode, Turbo 3, 2/3 Rounds, 2/3 Games
    * If both players would like to choose the same World Warrior character, a coin flip will determine which player gets to use the character. The loser of the coin toss will be awarded their choice of side (P1 or P2).
    * Akuma is banned.
    *****************************************************************************

    Why is Akuma banned? Akuma is weak in this game. Just look at characters like WW Guile, CE Bison, etc. Need I say more?

    I guess I should feel honoured that you had to resort to CE bison against me, the legendary SAVALAS?
    I'm coming for blood. No code of conduct. No law.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I'm pretty much used to playing the game on default speed, which is slower than ST. If you speed the game up, good luck trying to play older versions of characters....nobody will be used to how fast WW/CE versions will be moving, and HF versions will be flying across the screen at lightning speed. Capcom made the game's speed slower for a reason, so it would balance out the speed of the characters across the board in different versions.

    There's absolutely no reason to ever play a game on anything besides default speed, UNLESS there is a discrepancy between versions....i.e. US and Jap versions of arcade ST.
  • MrWizardMrWizard Supreme Commander Joined: Posts: 22,135 admin
    The game will be played on default speed.
    Shoryuken.com
  • GrahamGraham Joined: Posts: 571
    Well the default speed is speed 2, which is definitely too slow. Veteran sf2 players knows speed 3 is what most players are used to, it balances the characters closest to their real speeds. It said speed 3 on the advertisement for evo west http://www.evo2k.com/playerGuide/gamerules.php, i hope you guys stick with that. I really would prefer not to play speed 2 since it'll just make it like we are playing super street fighter, the worst version ever of the 5 original sf2s. I practice with alot of top players (cole, choi, valle, my brother alex wolfe) and all of them recognize immediately if its set to the slow speed and we set it to speed 3. I think most people in the country have practiced on speed 3, if you plan on changing the rules to speed 2 can we please at least have a poll on this? I know many many people who have spent a great deal of time practicing on speed 3 and to have this change at the last minute would screw over alot of players, including all the players coming over from other countries like japan who practice st as their main form of the older games.

    Graham
  • JeRonJeRon The Dictatorship Joined: Posts: 968
    I agree with Graham on that, there should be a poll! Speed 2 is slow! This past weekend at MidWest even though it was on Free Select 3 I told everyone to play on Speed 3 and noone had a problem with it! I think speed 3 is fair, not to fast and not too slow.



    Jeron

    Edit: Btw here are the results from MWC
    Hyper Street Fighter 2 Turbo results! (Round Robin)
    1st. NKI: (ST ChunLi) 16 points
    2nd. Seth Killian (ST Balrog/ ST DeeJay/ ST Honda) 15 points
    3rd. Jeron Grayson (CE Guile/ CE Bison/ Hyper ChunLi) 14 points
    4th. David Spence (ST Dhalshim) 12 points
    5th George Juicy G (Hyper Ryu) 9 points
    I will win with skill! Quote dedicated to ChunLi Zhang, Strongest woman in the world!
  • RenoROBRenoROB Reno Dangerous Crew Joined: Posts: 414
    Graham wrote:
    Well the default speed is speed 2, which is definitely too slow. Veteran sf2 players knows speed 3 is what most players are used to, it balances the characters closest to their real speeds. It said speed 3 on the advertisement for evo west http://www.evo2k.com/playerGuide/gamerules.php, i hope you guys stick with that. I really would prefer not to play speed 2 since it'll just make it like we are playing super street fighter, the worst version ever of the 5 original sf2s. I practice with alot of top players (cole, choi, valle, my brother alex wolfe) and all of them recognize immediately if its set to the slow speed and we set it to speed 3. I think most people in the country have practiced on speed 3, if you plan on changing the rules to speed 2 can we please at least have a poll on this? I know many many people who have spent a great deal of time practicing on speed 3 and to have this change at the last minute would screw over alot of players, including all the players coming over from other countries like japan who practice st as their main form of the older games.

    Graham

    yea I assumed it was gonna be set on speed 3 too

    thats what we're practicing on

    shugz

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    The REAL RENO Originator is BACK!!!
  • Needle KnifeNeedle Knife Joined: Posts: 84 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Poll nothing! Speed should be 3!

    Graham and the others made a good point! If you look at the official EVO rules, it says on the top "default...unless specificed below." If you look under HSF, you can plainly see that it is set on playing with a PS2 on speed 3.

    I think Wizard was wrong with what he said above. Ponder! Ink! Back me up! EVO forums are not the first place to go for information as most people will go to the official EVO site and this is what it says plain and simple.

    I hope the good folks at EVO will not go about changing THEIR listed rules. It opens a pandora's box. But Wizard, please do not say something on the forums that contradicts what the official rules say. It causes confusion on an already confused thread! If all of you organizers want speed 2 now when you posted speed 3 for all these weeks, please change it on the rules page.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Well to be honest, I have NOT practiced on speed 3 because I assumed it would be default speed, per EVO rules. So this needs to be decided on NOW so I can practice on a faster speed if need be....

    WE NEED A RULING!
  • Needle KnifeNeedle Knife Joined: Posts: 84 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Taken from the EVO site

    Hyper Street Fighter 2

    Game version: US Playstation 2
    Game Settings: Versus Mode, Turbo 3, 2/3 Rounds, 2/3 Games
    If both players would like to choose the same World Warrior character, a coin flip will determine which player gets to use the character. The loser of the coin toss will be awarded their choice of side (P1 or P2).
    Akuma is banned.

    Meh, personally, I don't mind the default either. It's just that changing things like this makes everything else people bring up more complicated.

    The only other thing I do remember is that last year, Wizard changed the recommended speed of the PS1 ST tournament. I think it was at turbo 3 which was "too fast." This was then changed to either turbo 2 or "speed select" 3 which was apparently different. Anyone else recall?
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Ponder posted the definitive answer in the other thread I created:

    It will be speed 3.

    I say blah but nothing I can do, I'll just have to start practicing on the faster speed now.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    When ST was at previous EVOs what was the speed for that game? If it was speed 3 for ST, then that's equivalent to Speed 4 on the US version of AE. I've been playing speed 4 lately just in case and to hone my reflex skills so that if it is speed 3 then I'll have a quicker reaction time.
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