The Sonic the hedgehog thread V.7 2017 Sonic Mania Summer 2017 + Sonic Forces Holiday 2017

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  • ruthless_nashruthless_nash Joined: Posts: 1,842
    knuckles running animation is shit. He used to look badass before, now he looks like a fat shit.
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 22,112
    Kind of like the people who go out of their way to trash on the latest Zelda or Pokemon game when they haven't touched either series in decades...

    They are idiots. Disregard and move on.
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  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird Crack is back! Joined: Posts: 23,632
    Zelda got it worse as it's being a target for SJW stupidity. Sonic only has to deal with the stupid of it's own fanbase.
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  • DrellyFishDrellyFish Joined: Posts: 4,108
    My friend who is also a huge Sonic fan is moping about the game. He seemed to have a lot to say off those 40 seconds, and I'm like to me it just looks like Modern gameplay for Colors, Generations, and Daytime unleashed, which I personally enjoyed. Only thing Im not hyped about is wisps coming back, because I think they are cool but in came cases they literally stop the momentum of the stage. But yeah my boy was going on this whole Sonic lost his identity shit. I'm like not really, its just SEGA tried to experiment with the 3D games in the same way 3D Mario is experimented with I guess, but they didn't always hit the nail on the head with it.

    Sonic being a mascot does give him that status to be able to do other shit, but SEGA has to just keep that aspect of a Sonic game in when they do that. No matter what Mario you play, it still feels like Mario even the rpgs because a lot of the gameplay is based on jumping. But I feel in some genres you can't have speed be the focus.

    But yeah I'm excited for Force. I think SEGA is out of that nonsense experiment just to experiment phase. Even the last Sonic Boom game was decent imo, I know it wasn't done in house, but it sill played like a Sonic game. it was just bland music and presentation-wise.

    But I know discussion on the game is gonna be a shit show until it actually comes, and even then that wont stop it. Hopefully Sonic Mania restores some faith in the brand. I think its good that SEGA is doing that for the OG fans, and having Sonic Forces for people who like both, or just the 3d Sonic
  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird Crack is back! Joined: Posts: 23,632
    I don't think wisps stop momentum. Colors and Lost World the wisps usually appear when the momentum has always been slowed. Some of the time they are around to provide alternate routes. I can do with certain wisps not being around like the music one.
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  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 19,820
    Sonichuman wrote: »
    Feels like there is always those people who come out of the woodwork whenever the topic of Sonic comes up who immediately start shitting on the franchise as a whole and say 'Sonic was never good'. (Not talking about you Darksakul, you are in a dif category) Shit drives me up a wall internally. Makes me feel like the person is just saying shit to troll but I know there are people out there that actually believe that.

    Sonic was good, but I felt Sega could do better. Adventures at the time was nice eye candy But i felt it was lacking that je ne sais quoi of the earlier series.
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  • SonichumanSonichuman You're too sloooww!! Joined: Posts: 17,616
    Darksakul wrote: »
    Sonichuman wrote: »
    Feels like there is always those people who come out of the woodwork whenever the topic of Sonic comes up who immediately start shitting on the franchise as a whole and say 'Sonic was never good'. (Not talking about you Darksakul, you are in a dif category) Shit drives me up a wall internally. Makes me feel like the person is just saying shit to troll but I know there are people out there that actually believe that.

    Sonic was good, but I felt Sega could do better. Adventures at the time was nice eye candy But i felt it was lacking that je ne sais quoi of the earlier series.

    The issue right now is there are too many people who have different ideas of what they want from a 3d Sonic game so any time a new game comes out regardless of whether its objectively solid there is always going to be a loud section of people complaining. I think the only thing that Sonic fans can agree on at least 95% is that the genesis trilogy are good games. After that it becomes a free for all.

    Right now the roller coaster platformer for current Sonic games works for him. Its not perfect and it has flaws but I don't get the 'its like temple run dissenters'. You have far more control over your character in this game then you do in a temple run game so I believe calling it that is a disservice.

    I do miss the Adventure style games and being able to play other characters in the franchise but the bottom line is that Sega can't seem to do those games at the moment plus the amount of money and effort to make a game like that these days with the high chance of them screwing it up is not a good financial idea and I get that. Hopefully at some point someone will come up with a solution for an open world 3d game but considering the nature of the character, it's going to take a massive undertaking.
  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird Crack is back! Joined: Posts: 23,632
    Sonic 06 was the last Adventure style game and Sega definitely does not want another repeat of that. The "roller coaster" style games has been the most successful style they have for Sonic. Boom crashed and burned, and fans soured on Dimps games with Sonic 4.
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero Mai Goddess Strikes Back Joined: Posts: 2,620
    Adventure series, huh?

    I liked the first two. The first did not age that well, but speedrunning it might work nicely (if not for Big the Cat's fishing sessions). SA2 was a solid game but a tad more streamlined than SA1.
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  • BigDeweyBigDewey Joined: Posts: 1,914
    Sonichuman wrote: »
    Darksakul wrote: »
    Sonichuman wrote: »
    Feels like there is always those people who come out of the woodwork whenever the topic of Sonic comes up who immediately start shitting on the franchise as a whole and say 'Sonic was never good'. (Not talking about you Darksakul, you are in a dif category) Shit drives me up a wall internally. Makes me feel like the person is just saying shit to troll but I know there are people out there that actually believe that.

    Sonic was good, but I felt Sega could do better. Adventures at the time was nice eye candy But i felt it was lacking that je ne sais quoi of the earlier series.

    The issue right now is there are too many people who have different ideas of what they want from a 3d Sonic game so any time a new game comes out regardless of whether its objectively solid there is always going to be a loud section of people complaining. I think the only thing that Sonic fans can agree on at least 95% is that the genesis trilogy are good games. After that it becomes a free for all.

    Right now the roller coaster platformer for current Sonic games works for him. Its not perfect and it has flaws but I don't get the 'its like temple run dissenters'. You have far more control over your character in this game then you do in a temple run game so I believe calling it that is a disservice.

    I do miss the Adventure style games and being able to play other characters in the franchise but the bottom line is that Sega can't seem to do those games at the moment plus the amount of money and effort to make a game like that these days with the high chance of them screwing it up is not a good financial idea and I get that. Hopefully at some point someone will come up with a solution for an open world 3d game but considering the nature of the character, it's going to take a massive undertaking.

    Well that's the result of Sega not finding a 3d Sonic game that's worked for the longest. So many different games that were experimental and not so great in the first place.

    Some of those games have some interesting ideas that teased the possibility of something good if refined enough in a future installment. The reason why Unleashed's Sonic gameplay made it this far is because it was more functional than anything before it. Now that's the standard for 3d Sonic and it would take remarkable effort to make anyone think otherwise.

    I'd still say Lost World's Sonic gameplay would be great if it was refined/improved in a new game, but I get that it came at a time where a struggling Sega needs to see success from its mascot. Then add in the fact that it was a Nintendo exclusive and didn't sell well enough means it will never get a second chance.
  • DrellyFishDrellyFish Joined: Posts: 4,108
    SA2 is not solid. The Sonic and Shadow sections are solid, everything else is a mess, the mechs being the worst of it.

    This is funny because I know a lot of people who only liked the Sonic/Shadow shit. But now I see people are mad that we wont use others in Sonic Forces. And Im 100% sure if they made more ppl playabale we prob wouldve gotten those completely diff gameplay styles. Not so much mech and treasure hunt but something diff to make them not play like Sonic
  • Negative-Zer0Negative-Zer0 Joined: Posts: 9,223
    I just feel like there is so little that can be done with the roller coaster games that they can only be good not great.

    Sonic 06 had like 8 months of dev time and no testing. They weren't trying to fix the physics engine or anything. All they did was throw characters in the game and try to cash in. That's what makes them quit this style? Numerous games with 0 effort/time put into them? That's a poor excuse. Even an Amy the Hedgehog game with adventure style gameplay would satisfy me now. I will pick up the new game, but with the knowledge that it could have been so much better in my opinion.
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero Mai Goddess Strikes Back Joined: Posts: 2,620
    What made Sonic great before the Adventure titles was the fact that the series advocated speedrunning. If a player has a decent amount of technique and stays on the upper levels of a stage, they would finish a stage a lot more easily. Whereas if the player kept taking the lower routes, the stage ends up becoming a lot more tedious. This sort of level design was consistent right up until SA2 where even the Sonic/Shadow levels were a lot more linear.
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 1,931
    The Taxman ports were awesome so I'm very hyped for Mania. Loving the Flying Battery Zone remix. I could give two shits about Sonic Forces.
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  • CloudEnvyCloudEnvy I'll drop the freaking moon! Joined: Posts: 893
    What made Sonic great before the Adventure titles was the fact that the series advocated speedrunning. If a player has a decent amount of technique and stays on the upper levels of a stage, they would finish a stage a lot more easily. Whereas if the player kept taking the lower routes, the stage ends up becoming a lot more tedious.

    I don't agree with any of that. Sonic games weren't design around speed running, but the ability to move fast and Sonic's wide range of speed. Sure you can blast through the game if you are skilled but that's the same for every single game in existence. There are way too many points in sonic games, regardless of what route that you are on, that encourages going slower or even completely stops you. On top of this, the series consistently goes out of its way to encourage players to explore in a way that would cut down any speed runners time with hidden rings, lives, power ups, and special stages. If you are going for a top score or the best ending, you are not going to be getting a fast completion time.

    Also, I think the upper path stage design belief is nonsense. Sure there are a bunch of stages where the upper path is faster like most stages with water, but there are also stages where the middle, lower path, or a combination of multiple route is much faster .

    examples:


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  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird Crack is back! Joined: Posts: 23,632
    I just feel like there is so little that can be done with the roller coaster games that they can only be good not great.

    I disagree. There's a couple of ways I can think of that Sega can improve on the formula. I would like them to make drafting easier to do and make it a bit more important to maintain speed and control. In Generations it was a mechanic you didn't need to use and was only useful in a few stages for speedrun purposes.
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  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero Mai Goddess Strikes Back Joined: Posts: 2,620
    edited March 21
    CloudEnvy wrote: »
    What made Sonic great before the Adventure titles was the fact that the series advocated speedrunning. If a player has a decent amount of technique and stays on the upper levels of a stage, they would finish a stage a lot more easily. Whereas if the player kept taking the lower routes, the stage ends up becoming a lot more tedious.

    I don't agree with any of that. Sonic games weren't design around speed running, but the ability to move fast and Sonic's wide range of speed. Sure you can blast through the game if you are skilled but that's the same for every single game in existence. There are way too many points in sonic games, regardless of what route that you are on, that encourages going slower or even completely stops you. On top of this, the series consistently goes out of its way to encourage players to explore in a way that would cut down any speed runners time with hidden rings, lives, power ups, and special stages. If you are going for a top score or the best ending, you are not going to be getting a fast completion time.

    Also, I think the upper path stage design belief is nonsense. Sure there are a bunch of stages where the upper path is faster like most stages with water, but there are also stages where the middle, lower path, or a combination of multiple route is much faster .

    examples:


    Speedrunning was not the only idea Yuji Naka had in mind for the game design. The idea was for Sonic to provide a robust and fastpaced platforming experience, considering that it's competition was Mario, while srill offering multiple routes. The consistent level design choices from still had the feature of taking upper routes for making the level easier. At the same time, there were also a handful of levels where the player had to be careful about their positioning and was even puzzle-based. These concepts were shown throughout the first few games. And, you can still speedrun the game even if you intend on getting all 7 (or in the case of Sonic 3 and Knuckles, 14 for super emeralds).

    EDIT:

    For more elaboration


    Post edited by Great_Dark_Hero on
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 1,931
    I think setting Sonic in the real world is dumb. I prefer the more outlandish fantasy setting of the original trilogy.
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  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,691
    edited March 21
    Completeing levels in new sonic games swiftly and speedily require all those things you just listed or else you slam into walls, spikes, and bottomless pits.
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  • ruthless_nashruthless_nash Joined: Posts: 1,842
    edited March 22
    Er... except momentum from taking advantage of physics engine.

    Oh another thing, the old skool games didnt force you to go fast either. The player had somewhat of a choice to either go fast or slow. In the newer games its like speed speed speed. Too many speed boosts for no apparent reason. Not enough alternative paths or shit to explore.
  • SonichumanSonichuman You're too sloooww!! Joined: Posts: 17,616
    Er... except momentum from taking advantage of physics engine.

    Oh another thing, the old skool games didnt force you to go fast either. The player had somewhat of a choice to either go fast or slow. In the newer games its like speed speed speed. Too many speed boosts for no apparent reason. Not enough alternative paths or shit to explore.


    It's kinda hard to translate Sonic in a 3rd person perspective while translating what the 2D games were about and making it work. There's too many factors going into it right now that it isn't as simple as how Mario does his stuff because of what the character's abilities. Hell we need the homing attack in 3D games because it's hard as fuck to be precise when you have a character that can move that fast and you want to bop enemies on the go.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 19,820
    Sonichuman wrote: »
    Er... except momentum from taking advantage of physics engine.

    Oh another thing, the old skool games didnt force you to go fast either. The player had somewhat of a choice to either go fast or slow. In the newer games its like speed speed speed. Too many speed boosts for no apparent reason. Not enough alternative paths or shit to explore.


    It's kinda hard to translate Sonic in a 3rd person perspective while translating what the 2D games were about and making it work. There's too many factors going into it right now that it isn't as simple as how Mario does his stuff because of what the character's abilities. Hell we need the homing attack in 3D games because it's hard as fuck to be precise when you have a character that can move that fast and you want to bop enemies on the go.

    Yep, the homing attack is sorely needed in 3D Sonic.
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 1,931
    The 2D gameplay doesn't translate well to the standard 3D platformer formula. I think the digipen student game Igneous (shoutouts to @spudmastaflash for making that thing) came closest to what I'd like to see in a 3D Sonic game.
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  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird Crack is back! Joined: Posts: 23,632
    Various fan games that try to implement the 2D mechanics in a 3D game usually have mixed results. Doing a spin dash is more complicated than it should be as some of them want Sonic to crouch and they use up two buttons for it.
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  • ruthless_nashruthless_nash Joined: Posts: 1,842
    Agreed to all the points above, however that doesnt necessarily negate my point that the old skool games were better. I agree the homing attack needs to be there in 3D to at least make it closer to that "sonic feel" as much as possible.

    I am strongly of the opinion that they shouldnt have stopped producing high level 2D games with that original physics engine. Venture onto other things, fine but keep those 2D games. the GBA/DS games were alright, but they still didnt have what made the original sonic games so good.
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 1,931
    edited March 22
    @ruthless_nash
    The homing attack wouldn't be so annoying if it didn't have that long ass windup time. If you could just tap it and instantly blast through enemies that would be awesome. But I always felt the better solution would be to improve the camera system+control scheme+level design so the homing attack wouldn't be necessary. I always think about the ramming mechanic in Spyro, it felt great on the racing levels when you charge forward with the camera locked over-the-shoulder...
    Various fan games that try to implement the 2D mechanics in a 3D game usually have mixed results. Doing a spin dash is more complicated than it should be as some of them want Sonic to crouch and they use up two buttons for it.

    Yeah the standard 3rd person controls fall apart at high speeds. Also, the level design is usually a mess, mixing platforming bits with high speed sections (+terrible controls) ruins the gameplay experience.

    I think ideally you want to translate some of the 2d classic level design philosophy to 3d, fast lane on top, more challenging platforming below. So maybe, something like a freeway on the upper section of the stage and if you fall off the lower areas have pits and barriers and stuff. But I think the entire stage should have a semi-linear design with clearly defined routes. I guess the closest example may be SSX or something?
    Post edited by truendymion on
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  • FoolinfectionFoolinfection Big fish in a little pond 4 LIFE Joined: Posts: 2,123
    edited March 22
    Lost Worlds was the closest a 3d Sonic ever came to feeling like a 2d Sonic game to me. It had that sense of momentum and control.

    Even the classic levels in generations were missing that sense of "Jesus, take the wheel" with it's speed and momentum when you go rolling down a hill at high speeds. The speed caps limited that.
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  • Negative-Zer0Negative-Zer0 Joined: Posts: 9,223


    This is actually what I would like. Clean up the level design a bit, give the stages more unique mechanics and fun platforming, hell you could even add tails, knuckles, amy, and shadow in there and it would be a quality game in my eyes.
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  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,691
    I would be interested in seeing Sega try something like that, but I see a lot of pit falls with it. Sonics jump distance is fucking nuts for example.

    But something good could be done with that with the right time and effort and balance put into it.
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  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird Crack is back! Joined: Posts: 23,632
    I played Sonic Paradise. It's a fun experiment but I wouldn't want a Sonic game like it. I need to use two buttons to spin dash which is retarded. The crouch button only exists for this and they would have been better off just making spin dash it's own button like the Adventure games. The team made the underwater way too elaborate for it's own good. It should been there level design for labyrinth zone not apart of Green Hill. The way it designed checkpoint goals is awful as there's no beam to run pass if the goals are too far apart and can't physical touch them.

    I feel that Sonic Utopia did this style better than Paradise


    There's Classic Sonic 3D Adventure that removes the speed entirely and focuses more on Sonic's platforming and gimmicks.
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  • Negative-Zer0Negative-Zer0 Joined: Posts: 9,223
    I would be interested in seeing Sega try something like that, but I see a lot of pit falls with it. Sonics jump distance is fucking nuts for example.

    But something good could be done with that with the right time and effort and balance put into it.

    Yea cleaning up the mechanics to make them more streamlined will be required. The camera can be ridiculous sometimes and that could be fixed. But I could see so many cool level designs with a game like that from SEGA.
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 1,931
    @Hawkingbird Does Utopia use the same control scheme and camera as Paradise? Because Paradise kinda sucked. You really need something more like racing game controls when you move that fast.
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 22,112
    @Hawkingbird Does Utopia use the same control scheme and camera as Paradise? Because Paradise kinda sucked. You really need something more like racing game controls when you move that fast.

    This is something I was mentioning to a friend of mine... If you want Sonic to move that fast, he needs to control more like a race car than a platformer character.
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  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird Crack is back! Joined: Posts: 23,632
    @Hawkingbird Does Utopia use the same control scheme and camera as Paradise? Because Paradise kinda sucked. You really need something more like racing game controls when you move that fast.

    The controls and camera are different. Utopia has the homing attack, crouch is bind to a shoulder button so it's less annoying to do a spin dash and it has the super peel out. The speed isn't retarded like in Paradise so it's much easier to be precise with movement and jumps. Camera is fine. This is a unity game and trying to play the game with a PS4 controller will make the camera spin out of the control rendering the game unplayable. There's a fix for that if insist in playing it with a Dual Shock 4.
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