The SF2 Hyper Fighting Thread

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  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    Thats really interesting, thnx. I wonder if this beta will ever be released? I've never heard anything about it.

    Crayfish.

    *EDIT WOW thanks alot Bill and Preppy, dlding atm. Been waiting 13 YEARS to see Tomo, Thanks so much. great work :china:
  • polaritypolarity I'M BACK BITCHES Joined: Posts: 1,841
    Crayfish wrote:
    I think it confirms that any susposed difference in speed isn't down to the different software revisions.

    Crayfsh.

    Haha, yeah, of course. Sorry, I thought you were trying to demonstrate that no differences existed at all :confused:
  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    NKI wrote:
    Wow, I just tested out my HF board, and it was way, way, way slower than I remember. Looking back on it now, I think when I played HF, I played it on nothing but emus and Capcom Generations 5, which is why I remember HF being this speed:
    http://nki.combovideos.com/GuileHF.mpeg

    (That vid was done with Capcom Generations 5, by the way.)

    But now that I've played the arcade version, ST is definitely faster.
    Thanks for hosting that vid again NKI, I never tire of watching those wild CPS1 chains. Have you or would you ever consider making a CPS1 combovid to go along with your CPS2 ones? That would be cool.
    btw to everyone who's not yet bought it, the excellent 'INSANITY STARTING OVER HYPER STREET FIGHTER 2 DVD': http://www.inhgroup.com/item/st2/
    features (what I'm pretty sure is) TZW's origonal Guile exhibition combovideo, that Sean said he took these combos from. Its absolutely awsome, and features imo the most badass combo in SF2. Guile: crossover HP, c.LK CPS1 chain into s.HPxx Flashkick. awsome.

    Also NKI, have you ever come accross any HF related sites or info on your journeys around T.Akiba and other Japanese sites, do any of the frame data etc.. pages relate to other versions (HF) or only ST?
    I found this page of JApanese SF2 links, mainly ST I think, but maybe there is some HF stuff in there too? Anyone...:
    http://homepage1.nifty.com/camera-ya/kansyou_link.htm
    Finding Japanese info on HF is the most important next step (now that Obot has kickstarted the western tourney/ vid scene).

    Crayfish.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    Anybody got details on how many stars I should be running HF on on a genesis?

    I keep the standard (i think it's 3) but occasionally we play at 10 for some retardedly stupid matches.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 291
    Some more notes on the MAME speed issue:

    Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to give a "use this percentage" answer. It seems that one's particular MAME configuration makes enough difference to make that impossible. In particular, the MAME version makes a difference too!

    100% CPU speed MAME32 v1.03 round speed: 52s
    100% CPU speed MAME32 v1.06 round speed: 47s

    (note that I can't be bothered with the command line version, so I use the GUI-style)

    Quite a difference. So going by 1.06, with frame skipping on (I guess that's more likely to give correct results?) I determined that 60% speed is most close to giving a 57s round time, but is a bit slow. However, depending on things like how you have the refresh rates set up (game speed vs monitor speed, vsync etc), 65% may be closer to 57s.

    I also tried a few setups without frame skipping, and it seems my computer (1.8GHz turion 64) either can't keep up 100% or something screwy is going on with frameskipping, because a round is significantly slower, requiring more like 70% CPU speed to get a 57s round.

    So basically, you have to time it yourself with your own setups. Kind of sucky. Makes me wish that Kawaks supported t-hat directions in the control setup!

    edit: http://www.mametesters.org/files/sf2t37b8yel.txt < This fellow reckons 65%, so I suppose I can go along with that.

    --flux
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • NKINKI Mashers Joined: Posts: 1,788
    Crayfish wrote:
    Have you or would you ever consider making a CPS1 combovid to go along with your CPS2 ones? That would be cool.
    In the intermission for Volume I, there are a few (rather bland) HF combos. Nothing special, and not even really worth the download if you ask me. :sad:

    And no, I don't plan on doing any new vids for CPS1 games. Not unless I find something crazy and new, which is extremely unlikely.
    btw to everyone who's not yet bought it, the excellent 'INSANITY STARTING OVER HYPER STREET FIGHTER 2 DVD': http://www.inhgroup.com/item/st2/
    features (what I'm pretty sure is) TZW's origonal Guile exhibition combovideo, that Sean said he took these combos from.
    TZW's original Guile exhibition (I think it was called "TZW's Ultimate Guile") was basically 500 variations of the same 3 combos. The combo vid that was on The Starting Over was done by Tosaka, as far as I know. The glitch vid (The ????) was done by TZW.
    Also NKI, have you ever come accross any HF related sites or info on your journeys around T.Akiba and other Japanese sites, do any of the frame data etc.. pages relate to other versions (HF) or only ST?
    Actually, T.Akiba's site has frame data for all the old school games, WW through ST.

    http://nki.combovideos.com/ST
    (See "Frame Data")
    It was a fun ten years.

    http://nki.combovideos.com
    Thanks to BlazeD and Preppy for hosting!
    Avatar by Buttermaker.
  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    Fluxcore, thanks alot for those findings. Do you have any idea if these settings can be used online? The good news is that there is pretty much an online standard with ver 0.64 so most people are using the same version. Also at some point the mame team are certain to address this properly. Seems so strange that its been an issue for such a high profile game for so long, esp as the very first CPS1 emu, Callus, had addressed it in 98.

    NKI, yeah the Guile section I'm talking about is on the end of the glitch section, so am pretty sure its (at least part of) the TZW one. The grade of video looks pretty old, like something of its era. Was the origonal video ever ripped do you know? I saw it mentioned by alot of people in the US who had a VHS copy.
    NKI wrote:
    In the intermission for Volume I, there are a few (rather bland) HF combos. Nothing special, and not even really worth the download if you ask me. :sad:
    *EDIT, just watched this, I really like the Ken slow fireball air huricane kick combo. Prolly best ro reserve that as Coup de grâce I imagine :)

    Thanks alot, great work on the frame data, I'll link to this in the resources next update. :tup:

    If there are any combovideo makers out there interested in doing a HF vid, or even starting to compile a list, that would be a great resorce. There are alot of combo's especialy CPS1 chains not featured on any western vids. Only Guile, thnx to the Sean Guiley vid NKI reposted has been showcased. Remember anyone with a rapidfire jab or short can CPS1 chain, as well as specific stuff like vert ball stuff for Blanka, Rogs dash combos like the ones mentioned by Apoc earlier, Vega roll re-dizzies etc....

    Crayfish.
  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    Ok here is part 4 (of 7) of the
    'GANGZHOU 2003 HYPER FIGHTING TOURNAMENT':
    GuangZhou HF3 Pg2Grp A,B,C & D

    http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2WCSV6RP
    Some SERIOUS Ryu beatdowns!!


    Crayfish.
  • NKINKI Mashers Joined: Posts: 1,788
    Crayfish wrote:
    NKI, yeah the Guile section I'm talking about is on the end of the glitch section, so am pretty sure its (at least part of) the TZW one.
    Oh yeah, my mistake. I forgot about that section. That is indeed TZW.
    The grade of video looks pretty old, like something of its era. Was the origonal video ever ripped do you know?
    Not that I know of. Maybe becase no one ever got a copy that had quality that was good enough to rip. I know my copies are pretty much unwatchable at some points (you literally can't tell what's going on, because the quality is so bad).
    If there are any combovideo makers out there interested in doing a HF vid, or even starting to compile a list, that would be a great resorce. There are alot of combo's especialy CPS1 chains not featured on any western vids.
    I'd be down for it if there were any new material to use, but I don't really think that XCOPYing old TZW combos to make a vid is worth the effort.
    It was a fun ten years.

    http://nki.combovideos.com
    Thanks to BlazeD and Preppy for hosting!
    Avatar by Buttermaker.
  • TaygetaVendettaTaygetaVendetta CHANBARA BEAUTY Joined: Posts: 560
    HF on 360 Arcade to have release date announced "soon".

    Damn this game is taking forever to come out ;_;
    "This is what happens whenever you graduate from watching shitty moe and fanservice animes, you turn into an investment banker. " -angelpalm
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    Watching those vids Crayfish hosted, I saw a ryu player consistently using hurricane kicks to trade with the fireball every time he saw a fireball in the ryu vs. ryu match. How effective of a strategy is this? the Ryu player using the tactic won. But I've never seen that done before.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • eidrianeidrian The Last Regret Joined: Posts: 641
    Crayfish wrote:

    If any collectors are on here, check this out:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Street-Fighter-II-2-Turbo-Video-Capcom-Pony-Canyon-Jp_W0QQitemZ3194104097QQcategoryZ1345QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
    Its a different instructional video to the Gamest one I've already posted up. I'd love to see it. If anyone gets/has this, let us know, there have been several kind offers already to rip/ host anything like this for the thread.

    Crayfish.

    I believe i have that Pony Canyon tape somewhere. I'll dig it out and put it up for download.
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  • caliagent#3caliagent#3 Caliagent Bobblehead Joined: Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭
    Watching those vids Crayfish hosted, I saw a ryu player consistently using hurricane kicks to trade with the fireball every time he saw a fireball in the ryu vs. ryu match. How effective of a strategy is this? the Ryu player using the tactic won. But I've never seen that done before.


    hurricane does more damage, and if you time it right you'll go through the fb. It's kinda like rog trading dash punches vs a fireball.
    Whiff your entire SOUL into c.MK in 3S.
    Footsies guide: www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbpXplP_WFE
  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    Ok here is part 5 (of 7) of the
    'GANGZHOU 2003 HYPER FIGHTING TOURNAMENT':
    GuangZhou HF3 Pg2Grp E,F,G & H

    http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VZVTAT1D
    eidrian wrote:
    I believe i have that Pony Canyon tape somewhere. I'll dig it out and put it up for download.
    Wow, that would be fantastc. Great new. Thanks Eidrian. Is it a stategy vid, combo focused of a bit of everythin like the Gamest one?

    hurricane does more damage, and if you time it right you'll go through the fb. It's kinda like rog trading dash punches vs a fireball.
    Hyper Fighting RYU

    Yes this is a majr strat in HF. I can see why Decoy ranked Ryu number one in this game. In the local scene I came from, in the end one player dominated, a Ryu player, and his major advantage over everyone else was his mastery of the first 'frame invulnerable Cyclne kick'. It got to the point where you couldn't throw HP fireballs at hm at all, he would spin through them every time clean and nail you. Its great for certain AA situatins too, like when another shoto jumps in at full HK range, the Cyclone will kick way out in front and beat it clean, whereas a DP will often whiff. It was even a dangerous too attempt certain combos against the Ryu player as he was so good at canceling it out of hitstun. Often you would land two hits only for him to cancel into Cyclone, go through your fireball and counter you clean right back.

    We should now deffo mention the CPS1 chain. This isn't just for exhibition combos, its a major part of Ryu's game in HF. It fulfills a kind of surrogate topdown/oerhead role. You can play some SERIOUS high low games with this. The simple c.LK, s.HPxxfireball CPS1 chain is so dangerous becase it gives Ryu te ability to dizzy an opponent from cold just sanding next to the opponent, without the need for a jumpin, charge or anything else, very few characters can do this. And all you need is one close c.LK!
    You can fake going for a throw, player stands to counter, you switch to df on the stick + LK....dizzy.
    You jumpin, player blocks high, you dont thow an air attack, land and go straight into c.K...dizzy
    Player whiffs a DP you walk in, c.LK...dizzy. Its one combo that should be 100% for every serious Ryu player.

    There is a nice variation of a common footsie on this latest set of Gang Zhou matches (see the first 13vs14 match). There are a number of setps off a blocked c.LK:
    Much like the blocked LP Dragon technique shown in the Tomo vid, you can bait whiffed sweeps and punish them. Like walk in throw a c.LK, then walk back, if the player tries to sweep you it will whiff and you can walk back in and counter trip or thow (using the extended throw range of the whiffed move).
    Anyway, there is a very nasty variation of this in the match I just mentioned. The player walks in, throws the c.LK but then he takes one step back and immediately jumps forwards, as the opponent whiffs wiith his counter sweep, he has widened and shortened his crossover box, and given you the perfect timing and range to land an easy superdepp crossover HK (combo into s.HPxxDP. Goodnight)

    One great tip ,I got here at SRK, is using the Shoto HK Axe Kick as a tick. As an opponent is getting to his feet, stand rigt next to him and throw an early Axe Kick so that the first hit whiffs and the second makes contact meaty (this gives you extra threat of two hitbox durations), then walk forwards and throw. This is a surprisingly effective tactic.

    I'm sure at some point we'll get onto THE sf2 matchup, Ryu ve Guile. There was a pretty heated argument on this forum before between members including Apoc (If I can find it I'll post it up again). Anyway, I remember that Apoc made a really interesting point about why Ryu has the advantage. He can counter all Guile's jumpins with c.mp that can then be canceled into fb to sustain pressure, (this negates the loss of initiative due to DP recovery time). This requires good timing and ranging but is a pretty awsome tactic in this matchup


    Crayfish.
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,190 ✭✭
    Yep...*nods*:lovin: all of those reasons are why I loved Turbo Ryu, it seems that everyone seems to have forgotten how powerful of a tool that inv. hurricane kick was. Imo, Hyper Ryu was for me the best Ryu ever in all of the Street Fighter 2 series.

    Great post Crayfish, hopefully more people will take this and try to learn these things about Hyper Ryu, man I love this thread.
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    heh, back when ryu was broke, ahh the memories.

    I have a feeling the HF release could trigger some online leagues to take a serious look at fighters for the first time. Before you thrash online, it's online events that create lan events. And the interest I have seen has been massive.
  • eviljevilj Joined: Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭
    looking forward to guile vs ryu discussions. I don't understand everything about this matchup, but there's something about this matchup that never gets boring. I'd rather play a bunch of HF guile vs ryu matches than play cvs2/3s.
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,190 ✭✭
    Bill Wood wrote:
    Hey guys, that video I sent to Preppy is up in his "zachd/mvc2 videos" thread, I hope you all enjoy it. Big thanks to him for taking the time to encode it!

    Here's the direct link:

    http://zachd.com/mvc2/#sf2

    Bill thank you! I just noticed this post up, lol, this is some good shit! Dude...a mod should stickie this thread...there's just some gold mine stuff in this here thread!
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • eidrianeidrian The Last Regret Joined: Posts: 641
    Crayfish wrote:


    Wow, that would be fantastc. Great new. Thanks Eidrian. Is it a stategy vid, combo focused of a bit of everythin like the Gamest one?


    It's like a Gamest one, just from a different studio. I uploaded it to www.combovideos.com . It's on the main page, and no, you don't have to pay to download. It's on the free match videos sections.

    Filename: sf2dash-ponycanyon-vhs.wmv
    Original Filename: (???????) ?????????????? ????? ????????? [1h00m01s 320x240 WMV9].wmv
    Size: 301 MB

    Hope you all like it.

    PS: Also, some comments please! :D
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  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    eidrian wrote:
    It's like a Gamest one, just from a different studio. I uploaded it to www.combovideos.com . It's on the main page, and no, you don't have to pay to download. It's on the free match videos sections.

    Filename: sf2dash-ponycanyon-vhs.wmv
    Original Filename: (???????) ????????????? ????? ????????? [1h00m01s 320x240 WMV9].wmv
    Size: 301 MB

    Hope you all like it.

    PS: Also, some comments please! :D
    Thats a fantastic video Eidrian, thanks alot for taking the time to upload it for us. I would say despite CPS1 chains not being yet discovred, the standard of stuff they show in the vid is higher than the Gamest one. I especialy loved the Gief-Dhalsim hold in the corner into 1hit dizzy headbut juggle, thats crazy!! The only thing is that this video is for Champion Edition, not Hyper Fighting, but lots of the stuff crosses over anywy. Btw that Boxer player in the tourney was excellent, that one match against Sim with all the 'jump back overhead' tricks and TAP ticks was amazing. I wonder how good that guy was with Hyper Fighting Boxer?!? Again, does anyone have the Hyper Fighting video they could post up too:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Street-Fighter-II-2-Turbo-Video-Capcom-Pony-Canyon-Jp_W0QQitemZ3194104097QQcategoryZ1345QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    Btw Eidrian, dont forget to post this up in the 'Korea SF2' thread, sure those guys will go crazy for this.
    http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102064&highlight=korea

    Thanks agin m8, great work :tup:


    Crayfish.
  • TaygetaVendettaTaygetaVendetta CHANBARA BEAUTY Joined: Posts: 560
    Crayfish wrote:

    Thanks for that. From the sound of the online game, the lag will be comparable to SFAE's play on Xbox1?

    Whats the default speed of HF is for the Japanese version? The gameplay videos in that preview looked slow as hell, like they had it set as low as it would go.

    And is it just me, or did it look like they had cleaned up or fastened Sagat's standing kick moves in that vid, they came out at the expected speed, but looked alot smoother. Guess its some of the cleanup work they mentioned doing to the game?
    "This is what happens whenever you graduate from watching shitty moe and fanservice animes, you turn into an investment banker. " -angelpalm
  • eidrianeidrian The Last Regret Joined: Posts: 641
    Crayfish wrote:
    Again, does anyone have the Hyper Fighting video they could post up too:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Street-Fighter-II-2-Turbo-Video-Capcom-Pony-Canyon-Jp_W0QQitemZ3194104097QQcategoryZ1345QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    Btw Eidrian, dont forget to post this up in the 'Korea SF2' thread, sure those guys will go crazy for this.
    http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102064&highlight=korea

    Thanks agin m8, great work :tup:


    Crayfish.

    Which HF video are you requesting? That ebay link is for the Pony Canyon VHS. If you point me in the right direction, i might be able to get it and upload it just like the other one.
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  • Obot64.comObot64.com MichiganGamers.net Joined: Posts: 859
    Crayfish wrote:

    woa the xbox 360 version looks hella slow! Under water fighting 2k6 :looney:
    You never know how far youve traveled until you see somebody where you started off.

    The best advice comes from you.

    When I say Im trying to be the best, that doesnt mean Im trying to match my actions to anybodys ideas of what it takes to be the best.

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  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    eidrian wrote:
    Which HF video are you requesting? That ebay link is for the Pony Canyon VHS. If you point me in the right direction, i might be able to get it and upload it just like the other one.
    Yes that the one, its the Pony Canyon HF (Turbo) one. If its anywhere near as good as the Champion Edition one you just posted' it'll be great. I've just noticed how many videos Pony Canyon have done, its a shame they aren't as well know as Gamest. I noticed on e-bay one of SF1 too!!
    Obot64.com wrote:
    woa the xbox 360 version looks hella slow! Under water fighting 2k6 :looney:
    Yeah I hope the finished version isnt that slow. I dont think it will be, the video linked to in the first post looked correct speed, maybe just the footage was running at a slower speed.
    Really looking fwd to your next tourney Obot, are you gonna continue covering HF?


    Crayfish.
  • eidrianeidrian The Last Regret Joined: Posts: 641
    Crayfish wrote:
    Yes that the one, its the Pony Canyon HF (Turbo) one. If its anywhere near as good as the Champion Edition one you just posted' it'll be great. I've just noticed how many videos Pony Canyon have done, its a shame they aren't as well know as Gamest. I noticed on e-bay one of SF1 too!!

    Crayfish.

    Yeah, i have that as well. I'll try to post it soon and also that SF1 tape too. :P
    * SRK MvC2 Mixes available on my homepage! *
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    woa the xbox 360 version looks hella slow! Under water fighting 2k6

    Given that you can often change the speed of console fighters I'd withhold judgement till the final product arrives.
  • dogberrydogberry l33t OG Sagat tactics Joined: Posts: 358
    Guile vs. Ryu

    Ryu has a clear advantage in this matchup. Probably 6-4 in Ryu's favour.

    Guile is at a disadvantage because his setups with sonic boom aren't as effective against Ryu. Guile is no match for Ryu in an all-out firefight and he also can't pressure Ryu with the SB effectively (Ryu's hurricane kick).

    Things that Guile can do at a distance are to draw Ryu into a fireball fight, hopefully getting him to start trying to overwhelm you with fireballs. What Guile is looking for is a careless FB that he can jump over for a RH kick while Ryu is in his fireball recovery.

    If Guile has the lead, try to hang on to it and force Ryu to jump in. Your AAs here are low fierce, stand RH, trip guard low fwd, and low strong (if you anticipate a Ryu jump RH). Low strong will let Guile duck under the jump RH and u can throw them when they land.

    If you have to get in close you should always try to stay just outside the range of Ryu's low RH. When you're fighting in close, you have to mixup your timing and patterns so it's harder for Ryu to react to your setups.

    If Ryu ever throws a FB to nullify your boom in close, you can backhand him for free damage. Another good trick is if Ryu blocks your low forward, try backhand instead of sonic boom. If Ryu tried to FB to counter after blocking low fwd he'll eat the backhand. Mixup the timing of your attacks not only to keep Ryu guessing, but also to give you time to setup your attacks with sonic boom.

    Never whiff low forward when playing footgames against Ryu. Good Ryus will sweep it on reaction and knock you down.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    I actually recommend throwing booms and baiting the hurricane kick. If you know your spacing you can crouching fierce the kicks.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • laughlaugh eTokki.com Master Joined: Posts: 1,929
    Ryu has a hard time fighting Guile in CE/HF imo. Hurricane kicks only work so often against a good guile and you would have to take a leap of faith when you do those anti-boom hurricanes. When Guile starts to throw booms it's really hard to turn the table over, since if you jump at him, he can hit you in multiple ways, jump straight up and you eat a guaranteed low forward as you land or try to do a air hurricane kick on the way down but Guile recovers safely after the low forward attemp at landing. Jumping backwards ont in Ryu favor either. Blocking the boom is the best option here and I think the best strat for Ryu against Guile is to get a knock down somehow and then doing bunch of safe jump in -> walk up low short XX short hurricane/dp/throw mixups.
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  • dogberrydogberry l33t OG Sagat tactics Joined: Posts: 358
    Callmeanewb: Yes, throwing booms and baiting the HK is a big part of it. Guile must be tricky tho. He has to mix up his follow-ups well (boom walk-in throw, boom, low fwd, boom, wait, low fierce HK etc). Not only can Ryu HK over careless sonic booms, but if he knows you're going to sit there and bait his HK out, he can simply do fierce FB to start pushing you out again, because the range where he can hit you for free with hurricane is also the range where you can't jump up over his fierce FB on reaction.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    isn't baiting the fireball part of it too? you sonic boom wait if he HKs you crouching fierce, if he fireball cancels you backfist, if he jumps you anti air, if he does nothing you throw another one?
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • watsonwatson Joined: Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    lol@tomo video. there is also a big story behind this too. lets just say his fucking so-called "manager" screwed me out of doing this. it was filmed in san diego for the most part. anyways, have fun to those trying to play this game. imo, this is the best version of SF ever made or played.

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    come check out one of the last arcades before its too late!!!
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,190 ✭✭
    In CE imo Ryu vs Guile is more of a 5/5 battle, but in Hyper where Ryu has a better fireball, and a more priority hurricane kick, I would agree with dogberry that Ryu now has an advantage. Guile has a tough time getting in on Ryu when it comes to a well played fireball game, and the hurricane kick is very effective against Guile, because within the range of where Guile can shoot his sonicboom and backfist, he's prone to eating a hurricane kick, and even Guile can't recover in time before he gets hit. Imo, even trying to shoot a sonicboom slightly outside of sweep range is dangerous because Ryu can always stuff it with a hurricane kick, and the sure way of the hurricane not stuffing Guile is if, Ryu does the hurricane kick too late, allowing Guile to recover in time. This can add for some guessing games in Ryu's favor, imo, jumping in on your opponent is usually never a good idea, especially if they know how to space very well(For both Ryu and Guile, not just either one). Most Guile's I play rarely jump forward, but they walk towards me while jumping straight up to avoid fb's then they will try to stuff me in close if I try to shoot a fb with a c.mk if I'm within range.

    This match I feel is within Ryu's favor, because Guile has to work more harder, while the Ryu if they know how to space well with his fb will be dishing out a relentless amount of chip damage, because Guile's sb game isn't quite as effective up against Ryu when compared to the other characters, the match imo will come down to who spaces better then the other, but Ryu has the advantage because he can beat Guile out in the fb department, and also has an answer to stuffing his sonicboom's.
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • UltimaUltima Whipped Joined: Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
    > but in Hyper where Ryu has a better fireball, and a more priority hurricane kick,

    I thought Ryu was exactly the same in HF as in CE. Just that, with HF's higher speed, it's now a lot harder to react when Ryu throws Fbs in your face.

    And yeah, Ryu has the advantage in this fight. Guile simply cant keep up with a non-stop FB barrage. Even if Guile never gets hit, he loses to chip damage because he just can't advance without blocking something, and Ryu never has to let himself get hit by anything.

    A more interesting fight IMO is Ken vs. Guile. I say that fight is 5-5. Ken has one weapon in that fight that Ryu doesn't: Ken's j.HP will stuff everyone of Guile's anti-air normals save perhaps for Guile's c.s.MP (which he should never be able to land cause Ken should never jump from that range). Aside from that, spacing Ken + a ton load of Fbs is just enough to keep Guile at bay. He doesn't have as "easy" a time keeping Guile out as Ryu does, but he can do it.

    I'm a sucker for punishment. I only play Bison in HF.
    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    the hurricane kick is very effective against Guile, because within the range of where Guile can shoot his sonicboom and backfist, he's prone to eating a hurricane kick,

    Even walk forward backfist?
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    watson wrote:
    lol@tomo video. there is also a big story behind this too. lets just say his fucking so-called "manager" screwed me out of doing this. it was filmed in san diego for the most part. anyways, have fun to those trying to play this game. imo, this is the best version of SF ever made or played.

    mike

    Agreed. It just doesn't get any better than HF. Maybe ST and 3S are technically better games (debatable), but to me HF represents the absolute pinnacle of SF2-mania, a time when competition was at an all-time high. I also prefer a much simpler game, a game without supers/air blocking/teching/parrying/what-have-you.

    Here's another question for the experts out there; with all the discussion about relatively close 5-5 or 6-4 HF matchups (Ryu vs. Guile), are there any HF matchups where even the most skilled player has little or no chance of winning?
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,190 ✭✭
    Even walk forward backfist?


    It depends by what you mean, are you signifying using a sonic boom and then walking forward into backfist, or just simply walking forward and backfisting? If Guile tried to just walk forward and backfist, the hurricane kick will beat out Guile's backfist's almost all the time(invincible frame start up and priority), the worse would be a trade off, which Ryu would do more damage then recieving damage anyhow.

    The only way I can really see the backfist connecting is if Ryu used a hadouken within close range to counter the sonicboom, this would allow Guile to backfist Ryu before he can recover.

    A bad matchup if I recall in Hyper was Ryu vs E. Honda (memory is alittle hazy, I haven't played a really good E. Honda since like...95 lol) E. Honda's headbutt's are shutdown almost all the time by Ryu because of fb's. All you needed to do was have good spacing with your hadouken game, c.fk stuff's many of his jump in's if he tries to jump over your fireballs. If he's close, hurricane kick can get you to safety, E. Honda's only chance would be to get in close on a Ryu, which was difficult to do.

    Another bad match up, and this one is against Ryu imo, is going up against Balrog in Hyper. I swear, the damn charge turn punch with it's invincibility, it made trying to space with fireballs almost impossible to do at times because Balrog would just fly right through your hadouken and smack you in the face, and he could walk forward while charging this up, which is why it was a very powerful tool up against Hyper Ryu, I would have to resort to other means like baiting Balrog into a turnpunch where I can stuff it with a lp shoryuken. I found this to be one of my most difficult matches in Hyper.
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    Ok, here is part 6 (of 7) of the
    'GANGZHOU 2003 HYPER FIGHTING TOURNAMENT':
    GuangZhou HF3 Pg3Grp A,B,C & D

    http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9N4W6DUQ
    eidrian wrote:
    Yeah, i have that as well. I'll try to post it soon and also that SF1 tape too. :P
    That would be fantastic eidrian. I never imagined such an amazing start to this thread. Tourney vids, the Tomo tape now the Pony Canyon tape, Truly great work to everyone involved. Thnks so much for your contribuions.
    watson wrote:
    lol@tomo video. there is also a big story behind this too. lets just say his fucking so-called "manager" screwed me out of doing this. it was filmed in san diego for the most part. anyways, have fun to those trying to play this game. imo, this is the best version of SF ever made or played.

    mike
    A pivilige to have you take part Mike. Clearly very interested to hear 'anything' you have to say on the subject of HF, esp tactics and history.


    Crayfish.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    The only way I can really see the backfist connecting is if Ryu used a hadouken within close range to counter the sonicboom, this would allow Guile to backfist Ryu before he can recover.

    That would be it.

    You sonic boom:

    if Ryu HKs you crouching fierce
    if Ryu cancels with fb you backfist
    if Ryu jumps forward you anti air
    if Ryu blocks (best option) you get spaced out and keep throwing SBs and FBs at each other til you get bored and one of you makes a mistake.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    That would be it.

    You sonic boom:

    if Ryu HKs you crouching fierce
    if Ryu cancels with fb you backfist
    if Ryu jumps forward you anti air
    if Ryu blocks (best option) you get spaced out and keep throwing SBs and FBs at each other til you get bored and one of you makes a mistake.
    Yeah the match gets really interesting here, Guile has an option for every situation if he can get the initiative behind a Boom. Just some other specialised offensive options not mentioned yet, if Ryu blocks the Boom:

    1.) Walk in behind it and throw

    2.) Walk in behind it, when Ryu blocks follow it with a s.LK, then take half a step back and press HK. Ryu will generaly try to sweep you, and you will cleanly counter with the upsidedown kick.

    3.) Follow behind the Boom and jump at Ryu. Ryu will generaly block high as he knows you can air attack simutaneously. Dont throw an air attack, land and go straight into c.HK sweep.

    *then you have the alternate options for each:

    1a.) Walk in behind the boom, then quickly crouch and hit c.HK sweep.

    2a.) Walk in behind it, when Ryu blocks follow it with a s.LK straight into a throw.

    3a.) Follow behind the Boom and jump at Ryu, throw a simutaneous air attack (generaly MK) that will hit Ryu's low block.

    3b.) Follow behind the Boom then when you get near, jump straight up. At the height of the jump hit HP. If Ryu tries to HK you will beat him clean.

    So many options for Guile when he has the initative (which, unlike say Sagat against Ryu, is as much psychological as it is timing and positional advantage and thats what makes this match so good), the hard thing for Guile, is to engineer the initiative against Ryu's FB game.


    Crayfish.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    honestly, at high level, this match should be 5:5 at worst. But like most things, it's largely skill dependent and a good ryu vs. a good guile can look like ryu has the upper hand.

    I forgot to mention Ryu can go for the uppercut through the sonic boom. In which case Guile still gets his walk forward mixup options.

    I can't recall but doesn't guile have a move forward option (b+MK or b+LK aka knee) that keeps his charge? The only problem with this option is that if Ryu is good he can throw a fireball forcing Guile to block, or gain the fireball initiative again.

    The biggest thing for guile in this match is learning to compete in the FB wars. Guile players need to learn the buffer technique for sonic booms (hold b f b +P allowing Guile to throw booms based on recovery instead of charge timing).

    oh and props on the big trouble in little china shot. I love that movie.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    Nice thread Crayfish, off topic goodge street casino has refitted new buttons and sticks for ALL machines.

    when you gonna do another session? give me some rough dates. if you do not know i am off for about 4 days week after next so i can do some AE and Turbo games and hopefuly bring Pulpasis plus another friend to my flat.

    peace out!
  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    I forgot to mention Ryu can go for the uppercut through the sonic boom. In which case Guile still gets his walk forward mixup options.
    Yeah if you stuff the cyclone kick a couple of times and start to pressue Ryu a little, you generaly see more and more of this. Depending on cicumstances, you can either punnish with c.MK, throw or backfist etc.., but the best Guiles can Backdrop whiffed LP Dragons, such an awsome tactic. You can even Backdrop the cyclone kick but I think thats too risky to bother using.
    I can't recall but doesn't guile have a move forward option (b+MK or b+LK aka knee) that keeps his charge? The only problem with this option is that if Ryu is good he can throw a fireball forcing Guile to block, or gain the fireball initiative again.
    Yeah its the b+MK (b+LK in ST), you dont really get to use this much against Ryu coss of the threat of the Cyclone kick, but against Sagat its a main part of your game coss you are safer behnd the Boom and its the way you use to punish nulified close low Tigers while holding/gainng ground and mantaining charge. Great move.
    The biggest thing for guile in this match is learning to compete in the FB wars. Guile players need to learn the buffer technique for sonic booms (hold b f b +P allowing Guile to throw booms based on recovery instead of charge timing).
    Yes deffo, here is Apoc's guide to 'Delayed Charging':

    "Charge before you release the special. This is a relatively unknown charging technique. Here is a new motion for your charge attack: Charge back(or back and down), tap the stick forward, then tap it back, then press the button that corresponds with the special you are using and the speed you want it to be. This basically lets you charge ahead of time and lets you keep charges even when your opponent thinks that you can?t be charged. Ever do a sonic boom and then flashkicked your opponent when he jumped over? This is how you do it. You can?t do another sonic boom, sadly, because only one can be on the screen at once. But the whole concept is simple: precharge. This is crucial in using your specials to maintain position, range, pressure and even a mindgame here and there as well as making for some really cool combos involving 2 or 3 charge specials or incredibly difficult to time supercancels. This also helps balance out your overall game with the command character because you have your moves almost at will, when you need them. Couple this with the real charge motion and you?ll see how fast you can fire off to charge specials in a row or connect charge specials into charge supers in combos. In short, this helps to free you up in regards to special usage"
    oh and props on the big trouble in little china shot. I love that movie.
    Yes abso classic:)
    Daz wrote:
    Nice thread Crayfish, off topic goodge street casino has refitted new buttons and sticks for ALL machines.
    when you gonna do another session? give me some rough dates. if you do not know i am off for about 4 days week after next so i can do some AE and Turbo games and hopefuly bring Pulpasis plus another friend to my flat.
    peace out!
    June and early July is tricky for me m8, just movng atm + lots of other stuff. I'll deffo get bak to you on this soon when I know where I am a little better. And I gotta finaly scan that SSF bok ;). Keep safe m8.


    Crayfish.
  • UltimaUltima Whipped Joined: Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
    Bill Wood wrote:
    Here's another question for the experts out there; with all the discussion about relatively close 5-5 or 6-4 HF matchups (Ryu vs. Guile), are there any HF matchups where even the most skilled player has little or no chance of winning?

    Blank vs. Vega
    Zangief vs. M.Bison

    Those two are 10-0 fights IMO.

    Ryu vs. M.Bison and Sagat vs. M.Bison are pretty bad too.
    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,190 ✭✭
    The biggest thing for guile in this match is learning to compete in the FB wars.

    This is why I feel that Guile will never have a 5-5 battle up against Ryu in Hyper. A 6-4 is not even that big of an advantage at all if you really think about it, the Guile player still has to work more harder than the Ryu player when these two are confronting one another, at high lvls, the matches do become more close, but that's how it is with almost all fighting games at the highest lvls of play. However it still doesn't change that Ryu has a slight advantage over Guile in Hyper, Guile has to be cautious with his sb game, Guile must get in close to deal damage otherwise he'll slowly get chipped damage, this plays within Ryu's favor, I'm not saying Ryu owns Guile, but it does lean slightly towards in Ryu's favor.

    Oh yes Ultima, lol, I completely forgot about the Blanka vs. Vega match, lol, the good times.
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    This is why I feel that Guile will never have a 5-5 battle up against Ryu in Hyper. A 6-4 is not even that big of an advantage at all if you really think about it, the Guile player still has to work more harder than the Ryu player when these two are confronting one another, at high lvls, the matches do become more close, but that's how it is with almost all fighting games at the highest lvls of play.

    Highest level play is the only way to do tiers. Yun would be bottom tier if you ranked him in a list where the skill level was below SA3 execution, or Urien without charge partitioning and unblockables, or Makoto without dizzy combo off SA2, or Dudley without OH links to corkscrew blow. You can't tier guile vs. ryu if guile doesn't know how to buffer SB properly and both theoretical players are equal at max skill level.

    I also disagree with you on the second part. Matches only become even at highest level play when there are too many effective defensive options for each character.

    Let's look at examples:

    GG: FD, burst, IB, tech etc.
    SC2: Step, GI and G2, jump
    VF4etc: DTB-EG (or whatever the acronym is for double throw break evade guard option select)

    These games at max skill level are actually pretty close to even. Lopsided matches like Dizzy vs. Potemkin aside.


    SF2 is unique in that there are so many matches that even at highest level play are so lopsided that you can't got a chance in hell to win. Let's look at Blanka vs. Balrog.

    No way in hell is an expert Blanka got a single chance against a good Balrog. Balrog counters everything Blanka has.

    More examples:

    Honda vs. Sagat.

    This match is so lopsided if Honda knows what he's doing. Sagat has to be super risky in order to do anything. Honda should win clean 100% if he's got enough reaction to see low tigers coming from half screen.


    Anyways, back onto topic. Does anyone have strats for Blanka vs. Sagat?

    I get creamed in this matchup. I'm always jumping tigers and poorly analyzing my spacing such that I land on tiger uppers all the time. Do I have a move that trades with tiger upper?

    How am I supposed to play this match up?
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,190 ✭✭
    snip

    I worded it wrong, so it's my fault, maybe I should've been more clear when I stated this so that you don't get the wrong idea. When I stated "More Equal at the Highest Lvl of Play" I'm not talking about "lopsided matches" like T4Jin vs. T4Kuma, or Shiek vs. Bowser, or MSP vs. Team Shoto(yes rather extreme on this one, and most likely won't ever happen, but it's just to get my point across). I stated this comment towards the Ryu vs. Guile matchup at the highest lvl of play, it does "get" more equal at the highest lvl of play, however it still doesn't change the mere fact that the Guile player has to work far more than the Ryu player in order to achieve the win.

    Guile can't keep a solid zoning/spacing with his sb's without resorting to jumping up, jumping in, or taking the block, or you missed timed your jump and you got hit, because of Ryu's fb game, and this is already a problem because sb is one of Guile's key gem's to his tactics, sure, it's not completely nullified but it's not good either, and Guile will be forced to come in on Ryu or suffer a barrage of hadoukens, which goes into Ryu's favor. Given in comparison it's not as bad when Guile confronts someone like Vega (whom imo I feel has a fairly big advantage when pitted up against Guile), but Ryu can still make it difficult for Guile. So I will have to disagree with you, this matchup is not a 5-5 matchup, I agree with the 6-4 matchup in favor of Ryu. It leans towards Ryu, because as I stated earlier, Guile has to work more than Ryu ftw.

    If I'm not mistaken and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Chunli technically supposed to have a slight advantage over Ken in 3S? Yet, Ken's can do fairly well up against Chunli's at the highest lvl of play, but it still doesn't change that Ken has to work more then Chunli to achieve the win. This is how I see the Ryu vs. Guile battle in Hyper, slightly in Ryu's favor, but not a lopsided guaranteed victory.

    Also, funny how you should mentioned SC2, when even at the highest lvl of play, someone like Misturugi can spank Yunsung pretty badly.
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • CrayfishCrayfish Oro of the FGC Joined: Posts: 807
    Please 'do not' take this thread in the engine coparison direction, however well inended the illustration is. If there is something that virtualy every thread on this board teaches its that this invariably leads to pointless arguments. Lets talk Hyper Fighting, if you think someones Hyper Fighting strat is wrong, dissprove it with a better Hyperfighting strat. The same goes for "Hyper Fighting is much better than X game, for X reasons" type comments, these only ever serve a negative purpose too.

    *Soz for my tone, but these type of well meaning, seemingly benign comments and anlysis are the most malignant trend on the boards.

    Yes high level is the only way to do tiers, and level bears no relationship to balance. Strats(even a single tactic) or Skill(execution, timing etc..) can either serve to balance or unbalance a matchup at any level.
    Despite all this (too much) talk of lopsided matches in HF, on the whole its an extremely balanced game, as the wildly varying rankings and our continued enthusiasm for the game are testimony to. Again, pls lets not retread this partcular corpse laden path ...again.

    Ok onto content:
    Sagat vs Honda is pretty even imo, even that (still baffling) ultra pro Honda T.Akiba ranking has it 6-4 to Honda, all the others have Sagat winning. Honda can go over low Tigers, but Sagat has the high Tiger which still beats it. You can crounch under the high ones and gain ground, but then U've lost your charge and he can low Tiger again. Its all give and take (lke all the best matchups :). Its Sagat's ability to mix the heights and speeds that makes the choice of action just as risky for Honda as it does for Sagat. Plus he can reset many stuations by just spamming jump back HK.

    Jump straight up, HK on the way down can beat TU clean, or make it whiff. And j.MP can beat it clean once its in the air. Keep up the normal ground pressure, trade c.HP/ c.HK with low Tigers, crouch under high Tigers then (if your close enough)whack his outstrched hands with s.MP. Blanka has an advantage that most charas dont against Sagat, he can dizzy hm with a full range jumpin against a low Tiger. The combo s simple j.HK, c.HP. Massive range.


    Crayfish.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    How I play Honda vs. Sagat.

    start of match. Headbutt. buffer back. This depends on the player. If the player blocks you've already won. If he blocks and punishes, keep turtling and bait a mistake. If he uppercuts, you might lose but turtle anyway, if you hit him, he has very little chance of winning.

    After that hold d/b and just wait. You duck high tigers, so you only need to worry about low ones. As long as you're ahead on life his only option is to jump on you (risky).

    If you're far away a good sagat will tiger upper your fierce headbutt, so you should only fierce headbutt from about half screen. Just watch for a low tiger -> headbutt -> sit on your charge repeat.

    From max range you jab headbutt instead. Then sit on your charge.

    Good sagats won't be playing tiger games with you. Instead they'll be trying to jump in on you and throw you.

    At the right range, headbutt will work for anti air, otherwise you can try standing close fierce, but I don't bother against sagat's j.HK. I block and try to reverse a tick with squeeze throw -> HHP buffer charge and go back to turtling.

    Perhaps I haven't played against any really good Sagat's but I can't see sagat having much of a chance in this match.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
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