Street Fighter X Tekken Match Critique Thread

Intuitive2011

It's quite obvious that a lot of the sub forums in the X Tekken forum lacks activity, most importantly, match video activity. This thread is a place for ALL players to come and get advice as to how you can improve. Not matter what your rank is, win or lose, I urge everybody to submit their video, if you feel you need advice. Ryan Hunter, and I hope many other great players will post advice for players to progress.

Just try to keep a few things in mind, don't let your ego get in the way of progress. If somebody says your footsie game is weak, then look to improve it. If somebody says your anti airs are off and you play a character with strong anti airs, THEN IMPROVE IT!

And the criteria for your video is this:

It doesn't have to be picture perfect, I understand that more than most. But it must be viewable. IE, we can see EXACTLY what's going on. My video below should be an example of what we're looking for.



I guess as I created this thread, I should put up a video. :P

Fergus2k8

Well my set with Robofobe should be up next week so I'll post it in here for criticising :D

Reikirei

This is a great idea, but how will it exactly work? Like, if someone posts a video, what's the time/matches limit for each video? Also, if they post, how much time should they wait before posting another? And can anyone post advices for those players?

Intuitive2011

Reikirei, post: 7596514, member: 78527 wrote:

This is a great idea, but how will it exactly work? Like, if someone posts a video, what's the time/matches limit for each video? Also, if they post, how much time should they wait before posting another? And can anyone post advices for those players?

I hope it will be in this formula:

Post a match.

Get feedback.

Apply said feedback in your following match.

Then repost a new video were you've tried to implement the advice you received and ask again.

But, I am open to all suggestions. So, if anybody can come up with a solid formula, feel free to post it here.

As for advice, if you feel your opinion could help a player, then feel free to advise them. If you feel there's a glaring weakness which needs to be addressed, feel free to respond. Ryan Hunter has already given me his word that he'll be willing to help, granted, he said he's not willing to critique whole sets. He said he's willing to critique 1-3 matches, which I feel is very good. I hope many other strong players will be willing to contribute also, as I guarantee they'll see things in your gameplay that you wouldn't spot.

In regards to waiting for a response, I hope that players will be able to get a response swiftly, the X Tekken forum is very active, and I hope this thread will be too.

DocDignity

Great idea! As far as I understand that, it doesn't matter how long or how often and everybody can reply. Is that correct?

OZleon

Intuitive2011, post: 7596221, member: 66101 wrote:

I guess as I created this thread, I should put up a video. :P

Work on your anti airs. There were a few time where you let your opponent jump in on you. You really shouldn't have put those jabs in after the launcher combos since they scale the combo. You were dropping combos quite a bit so you may want to work on them in the lab until you can do them with your eyes closed. At 3:25. it looked like you probably could have gotten a much bigger punish then throw.

I don't play Ryu or Ken but can't their dps or supers punish joudan on block?

Intuitive2011

OZleon, post: 7596548, member: 14806 wrote:

Work on your anti airs. There were a few time where you let your opponent jump in on you. You really shouldn't have put those jabs in after the launcher combos since they scale the combo. You were dropping combos quite a bit so you may want to work on them in the lab until you can do them with your eyes closed. At 3:25. it looked like you probably could have gotten a much bigger punish then throw.

I don't play Ryu or Ken but can't their dps or supers punish joudan on block?

Hey, OZ. Thanks for the response. You're the first person to give feedback, congrats. :)
My ken confirms online kinda suck, I do need to spend more time with him. You are certainly right about the anti air's, the did go unpunished. Again, that LMHH is a force of habit which needs to be cut out, I can confirm much better than that.
At 3:25, I was trying to go for the reverse blockable setup, I got it all wrong. :P

DocDignity

Problem with me is: I'm not the best player, but I love theory fighting. So I usually know more than what I can do :)
I missed the donkey punish too, even if you just go into LP-HP-Launch,etc. It's -6 now afaik.
Oh, and yeah a few mexican uppercuts here and there :)
Will probably try to record a few matches tomorrow.

Intuitive2011

DocDignity, post: 7596596, member: 68204 wrote:

Problem with me is: I'm not the best player, but I love theory fighting. So I usually know more than what I can do :)
I missed the donkey punish too, even if you just go into LP-HP-Launch,etc. It's -6 now afaik.
Oh, and yeah a few mexican uppercuts here and there :)
Will probably try to record a few matches tomorrow.

I know what you mean, I'm the best theory fighter around. :)
With the Joudan punish, I'm afraid of SRK, as that's the new Ryu mix up.
Yes, I agree, those bootleg uppercuts wouldn't have hurt.
I'll be ready to critique you harshly come tomorrow. :P

DocDignity

Intuitive2011, post: 7596609, member: 66101 wrote:

I know what you mean, I'm the best theory fighter around. :)
With the Joudan punish, I'm afraid of SRK, as that's the new Ryu mix up.
Yes, I agree, those bootleg uppercuts wouldn't have hurt.
I'll be ready to critique you harshly come tomorrow. :P

Donkey-Srk Mixup?? Wooot? ;)
The Donkey is still -6 whatever they throw out after. Evertime I see one of these bloody Ryus I just wait to squeeze my LP/MP in there :D
Can't wait for your critique. Have to look for a recent match now.

Reikirei

In addition to what OZleon said, @1:01, after an EX Joudan I believe it's better (to connect) if you jump with HK instead of HP, then do cr. MK and Tatsumaki if you have no bars left. After a launch, you can do cr. HP, CADC, cr.HP, Shoryuken or Tatsumaki for better damage. And in the corner, @1:19, after a tag cancel, you could have done cr.HP, lk Joudan, cr.HP, lk Tatsumaki for better damage too.

Songi

Intuitive2011, post: 7596609, member: 66101 wrote:

I know what you mean, I'm the best theory fighter around. :)
With the Joudan punish, I'm afraid of SRK, as that's the new Ryu mix up.
Yes, I agree, those bootleg uppercuts wouldn't have hurt.
I'll be ready to critique you harshly come tomorrow. :P

I noticed most Ryu's will only use that SRK bs if your rushdown is really scary to them. Of course there are flowchart Ryu players out there that will mash out SRK everytime they get touched so you never really can be too sure. You were smart to just wait it out and look for a more surefire punish. Realistically the only time you wanna punish a Joudan is when Ryu has no meter.

Intuitive2011

Reikirei, post: 7596650, member: 78527 wrote:

In addition to what OZleon said, @1:01, after an EX Joudan I believe it's better (to connect) if you jump with HK instead of HP, then do cr. MK and Tatsumaki if you have no bars left. After a launch, you can do cr. HP, CADC, cr.HP, Shoryuken or Tatsumaki for better damage. And in the corner, @1:19, after a tag cancel, you could have done cr.HP, lk Joudan, cr.HP, lk Tatsumaki for better damage too.

Thanks for the tag combo advice. :) You know, we discussed it in the Ryu forum, but it's better to do a Cr.Hp after EX Joudan, it does more damage.

Intuitive2011

DocDignity, post: 7596630, member: 68204 wrote:

Donkey-Srk Mixup?? Wooot? ;)
The Donkey is still -6 whatever they throw out after. Evertime I see one of these bloody Ryus I just wait to squeeze my LP/MP in there :D
Can't wait for your critique. Have to look for a recent match now.

Yep, that's the 'new' Ryu tech, meter or not.
I look forward forward to seeing Gief/Dudley play. :D

Songi

I can't wait to critique dat Gief.

DocDignity

Songi, post: 7596663, member: 72973 wrote:

I noticed most Ryu's will only use that SRK bs if your rushdown is really scary to them. Of course there are flowchart Ryu players out there that will mash out SRK everytime they get touched so you never really can be too sure. You were smart to just wait it out and look for a more surefire punish. Realistically the only time you wanna punish a Joudan is when Ryu has no meter.

Sorry, but am I missing something here? If a Joudan is -6, it's -6. Unless Ryu's Srk now can roll back time, I think it doesn't matter if Srk is 2, 3 or 57 frames startup with unlimited invulnerability. You punish Joudan, done!

*goesandtriestofindamatchtowhichisnottooembarassingbecauseofthisbloodyXiaoplayer*

Intuitive2011

DocDignity, post: 7596705, member: 68204 wrote:

Sorry, but am I missing something here? If a Joudan is -6, it's -6. Unless Ryu's Srk now can roll back time, I think it doesn't matter if Srk is 2, 3 or 57 frames startup with unlimited invulnerability. You punish Joudan, done!

*goesandtriestofindamatchtowhichisnottooembarassingbecauseofthisbloodyXiaoplayer*

I always thought that SRK's would come out, as it has start up invincibility. I've always been hit out of what I tried to do if they input SRK after a Joudan. Although it could be online.

Vulcan Hades

@Intuitive: That match was either super laggy or your execution is not very good because you both kept dropping easy combos all the time.

But besides practicing execution:

There's no point in doing a raw Sweep with Ryu and not canceling it into CADC. You did this many times. It doesn't do anything and it's not safe. So if you're going to use Sweep at least special cancel into something.

You also kept doing stuff like c.mk xx Hadoken. What does that even do?

If you're going to fish for something at mid-range you might as well buffer tatsu so you can switch cancel and get like 400+ damage on hit or even just BC launch which would be much better than what you are doing. cr.mk xx Hadoken is a silly habit from SF4 that you need to drop imo. Unless you are too close and just want to push them back then it's ok.

2:00 - you land a cr.mk xx tatsu xx switch cancel but then with Ken you go for a throw instead of guaranteed 300 damage. You probably thought you were a little too late on the switch there, but you weren't.

Your punishes are really weak. And I mean REALLY REALLY WEAK.

2:22 - you make his DP whiff and for punish you try to hit confirm with c.mp link or chain into EX DP. Why? You could just do fierce into HP DP xx Switch for 400+ easy instead of scaling the damage down with useless links/chains. Or simply do fierce xx EX joudan BnB (maybe that's what you were trying too but you still tried to hit confirm).

End of second round, you drop you ABC launcher that could have saved you. So find a better and more reliable chain. st.hp is often out of range so use st.hk instead. Or if you're not sure if fierce/roundhouse is going to reach, don't even try it and go for manual launcher.

3:34 - Again, you make a DP whiff and try to hit confirm. We call it a punish because it's guaranteed damage. You hit confirm when you're not sure if opponent is going to block or not. But when they whiff something and are in recovery frames they can't block. So no need to hit confirm. You max damage punish starting with your most powerful special cancellable normal, or simply with a special move xx switch.

3:24 - By far my biggest face palm. You punished a raw tag with a throw... That's basically giving up 500 free damage for no reason at all.

So punishing is something you really need to work on. Because it is a huge weakness and you will continue losing a lot until you understand the importance of max punishing everything. It's a shame because you seem to be good a baiting and making reversals whiff, but you just never capitalize on it.

On the good side, you did some good raw launcher frame traps from time to time. I think you were just desperate half of the time. But still, keep using raw launcher like that it's very good and remember that you can always switch cancel on block and cancel the run early. Although with Ryu you can usually just frame trap with cr.mp and get the same result so Launcher is mostly when you are in negative frames and cr.mp would get counter hit (ex: after Sweep xx CADC, cr.mp would lose to crouch jab mashing but raw Launcher would win).

Norieaga

A few notes...
-This match happened BEFORE the DLC characters released, meaning it was the first time I ever faced them.
-I don't main either Ryu or Guile but instead use Rolento.
-I'm posting this vid so people ignore it and instead check out the rest of my page, which I'm pretty proud of. :D

Let me know if you have a fighting game Youtube page, I'll gladly sub.

Vulcan Hades

lol wait, Intuitive was the Abel/Ryu guy or the Ryu/Ken? :oops:

edit: ok nvm. So my last post is still relevant. :D

DocDignity

Vulcan Hades, post: 7596833, member: 26486 wrote:

lol wait, Intuitive was the Abel/Ryu guy or the Ryu/Ken? :oops:

He plays Ryu/Ken

Intuitive2011

Vulcan Hades, post: 7596749, member: 26486 wrote:

Snip

Thanks for your analysis, Vulcan. May I ask, do you mean Cr.Mk, Hadoken with Ken? As Ryu's Tatsu isn't safe. As for my punishes, I believe in my own execution, but it doesn't always translate well online. I know I can Hit Ryu's best punish combos. Again, thanks for the critique. You're so very right about punishing harder, but if I throw my opponent into the corner, it's because I want to go into the reverse blockable situation. The launchers weren't a desperation move. :P I shall implement CADC more into my game, it is something I under utilize.

@Vulcan, I was the Ken/Ryu dude. :P

DocDignity

OK, here we go:



Why not start with a shitty match :) Was quite a while ago, but I guess it does make sense to show a crap match rather than punishing scrubs.
Before you tell me: I know that Duds punish in the corner should be different, but if the match is laggy (which it was) then I sometimes just use crMP-crMp-crMP...
Usually I use HK-HK-LK SSB-MP Jet or HK-HK-crMP-MP Jet. Dud is fucked by lag :(

Intuitive2011

DocDignity, post: 7596883, member: 68204 wrote:

OK, here we go:



Why not start with a shitty match :) Was quite a while ago, but I guess it does make sense to show a crap match rather than punishing scrubs.
Before you tell me: I know that Duds punish in the corner should be different, but if the match is laggy (which it was) then I sometimes just use crMP-crMp-crMP...
Usually I use HK-HK-LK SSB-MP Jet or HK-HK-crMP-MP Jet. Dud is fucked by lag :(

This match wasn't half bad, I felt you played the Gief/Juri match quite well, I know how bad it can be! One gripe, you didn't jump often, but you know yourself, when you did, it hurt. Perhaps you react to fireball (store/release) instead of predicting. That aside, you was solid and the Super setup with Gief was sweet.

Songi

Good punishes on Juri. I see too many dive kicks still going unchecked these days. But, you kept Juri honest the entire time and rendered her useless vs Gief which is pretty good. Also that elbow drop with Dudley against Hugo's body splash was great, taught him to never jump again lol. LOL honestly that was well played I can't really say anything negative since you pushed Juri right into a corner as soon as the match started...smart move. She's utterly worthless with her back against the wall.

The only mistake you made was jumping in on Juri too much. As a Gief player you don't need to jump at all with banishing flat and proper spacing / keeping bitches honest with Ex SPD. It seemed like you remedied that problem during the match so it's all good. I wish I could fight your Gief, that was pretty entertaining.

DocDignity

Intuitive2011, post: 7596912, member: 66101 wrote:

This match wasn't half bad, I felt you played the Gief/Juri match quite well, I know how bad it can be! One gripe, you didn't jump often, but you know yourself, when you did, it hurt. Perhaps you react to fireball (store/release) instead of predicting. That aside, you was solid and the Super setup with Gief was sweet.

See, I think I jumped WAY too often. And in round one these jump overs with Dud? What a shite! What IS that? Funny watching your own vid and realising how crap you are :)

Edit: see? This Songi guy saw my stupid jumps too :D

Edit2: @Songi: are you PSN?

Songi

DocDignity, post: 7596966, member: 68204 wrote:

See, I think I jumped WAY too often. And in round one these jump overs with Dud? What a shite! What IS that? Funny watching your own vid and realising how crap you are :)

Edit: see? This Songi guy saw my stupid jumps too :D

Edit2: @Songi: are you PSN?

Yeah I'm on PSN. I'm located on East Coast US if you're located anywhere but the far-east or Australia you should be playable.

Intuitive2011

DocDignity, post: 7596966, member: 68204 wrote:

See, I think I jumped WAY too often. And in round one these jump overs with Dud? What a shite! What IS that? Funny watching your own vid and realising how crap you are :)

Edit: see? This Songi guy saw my stupid jumps too :D

Edit2: @Songi: are you PSN?

Dud's, perhaps. You was quite disciplined with Gief, in regards to jumping. :)

DocDignity

Songi, post: 7596994, member: 72973 wrote:

Yeah I'm on PSN. I'm located on East Coast US if you're located anywhere but the far-east or Australia you should be playable.

Cool, i'm atm in Newcastle in England, beginning of next year I'm back in Germany.
Both should be fine. Have fiberoptic here, so can give it a try.
PSN is DocDignity

Songi

DocDignity, post: 7597070, member: 68204 wrote:

Cool, i'm atm in Newcastle in England, beginning of next year I'm back in Germany.
Both should be fine. Have fiberoptic here, so can give it a try.
PSN is DocDignity

You should have a solid connection with me then. I play several others in England without an issue.

Edit: my food just arrived so I'm gonna need a few mins to eat. I'll hit you up when I'm finished.

Vulcan Hades

Intuitive2011, post: 7596865, member: 66101 wrote:

Thanks for your analysis, Vulcan. May I ask, do you mean Cr.Mk, Hadoken with Ken? As Ryu's Tatsu isn't safe.

It doesn't matter if a move is -1 million on block because you're not looking to get your cr.mk blocked. You're looking to "fish" with it.

The idea is to throw a cancellable poke just outside of range and you buffer a special move to switch cancel or you buffer a chain to launch/special cancel into EX. This poke will never get blocked because it's out of range and just whiffs. The only way this poke can connect is if they walk or dash into it or use a special move or unique normal that makes them move forward and come in contact with it (e.g. Gief's Green Hand or Ibuki's Slide). Regardless of how it connects, if it connects 90% of the time it will be on hit so that's why it doesn't matter if it's very unsafe on block. Your buffer will come out and you'll get a tatsu/joudan or a chain into EX/launcher for big damage.

This is a huge part of the footsie game and it's even more present in this game due to the universal slow walkspeed (you are less likely to get whiff punished for whiffing pokes so fishing becomes much safer than it was in AE). Also in SF4, you could not buffer a chain or EX joudan and you could not switch cancel a tatsu. So that's basically why back then buffering something simple like Hadoken was often the best and safest thing to do. But this is a different game with different rules. cr.mk xx hadoken is still good to build meter and push the opponent away when you're in close range, but at mid-range aka footsie range aka fishing distance you want to buffer something a lot better than a projectile.

Examples of buffer/fishing I do with Yoshimitsu:

-st.lk (buffer mk,hp) react with launcher, EX Poison Breath or EX SlapUSilly xx switch.
-cr.mp (buffer Windmill) react with switch cancel.

I said it would be better to buffer tatsu, but now that I think about it I'm not even sure if tatsu would combo after a max range cr.mk connects. So it's probably better to just buffer a chain into EX joudan. Or simply launcher or joudan if you have no meter.

Intuitive2011 wrote:

As for my punishes, I believe in my own execution, but it doesn't always translate well online. I know I can Hit Ryu's best punish combos.

No matter if it's your execution or lag, you still tried to hit confirm. And my point was you need to stop doing that (for punishing).

Intuitive2011

Vulcan Hades, post: 7597242, member: 26486 wrote:

It doesn't matter if a move is -1 million on block because you're not looking to get your cr.mk blocked. You're looking to "fish" with it.

The idea is to throw a cancellable poke just outside of range and you buffer a special move to switch cancel or you buffer a chain to launch. This poke will never get blocked because it's out of range and just whiffs. The only way this poke can connect is if they walk or dash into it or use a special move or unique normal that makes them move forward and come in contact with it (e.g. Gief's Green Hand or Ibuki's Slide). Regardless of how it connects, if it connects 90% of the time it will be on hit so that's why it doesn't matter if it's very unsafe on block. Your buffer will come out and you'll get a tatsu/joudan or a chain into EX/launcher for big damage.

This is a huge part of the footsie game and it's even more present in this game due to the universal slow walkspeed (you are less likely to get whiff punished for whiffing pokes so fishing becomes much safer than it was in AE). In SF4, you could not buffer a chain or joudan and you could not switch cancel a tatsu. So that's basically why back then buffering something simple like Hadoken was often the best and safest thing to do. But this is a different game with different rules. cr.mk xx hadoken is still good to build meter and push the opponent away when you're in close range, but at mid-range aka footsie range aka fishing distance you want to buffer something a lot better than a projectile.

Examples of buffer/fishing I do with Yoshimitsu:

-st.lk (buffer mk,hp) react with launcher, EX PB or EX SUS xx switch.
-c.mp (buffer Windmiill) react with switch cancel.

I said it would be better to buffer tatsu, but now that I think about it I'm not even sure if tatsu would combo after a max range c.mk connects. So it's probably better to just buffer a chain into EX joudan. Or simply launcher or joudan if you have no meter.



No matter if it's your execution or lag, you still tried to hit confirm. And my point was you need to stop doing that (for punishing).

Thanks again for the feedback, it makes a lot of sense, overall. I need to ask, I've never been much of a Street Fighter player, and I feel it's reflected in my play. How can I improve my fundamentals, such as footsies, spacing and anti airs?

Regarding Cr.Mk into Tatsu at max range, I don't believe it connects.

DocDignity

Be very careful with crMK-Hado in SFxT. Ryu's is -6 and Ken's is -9 on block . Due to pushback not everyone can punish it. With e.g. Gief I can usually punish it with stLK because of the range, not even talking about derp Cody crLK.

Norieaga

The thing is, anyone sensible will space cr. mk xx hadou at max distance. I generally throw out a cr. mp with Akuma before I finish with the string. Even in SF2 you were asking for trouble by not doing it at max range. :) But yeah, I think a select few can punish it even at max distance.

silph

Intuitive2011, post: 7597274, member: 66101 wrote:

Thanks again for the feedback, it makes a lot of sense, overall. I need to ask, I've never been much of a Street Fighter player, and I feel it's reflected in my play. How can I improve my fundamentals, such as footsies, spacing and anti airs?

Regarding Cr.Mk into Tatsu at max range, I don't believe it connects.

There is rarely, if ever, a reason to buffer Tatsu into low forward. For any situation in which you don't want to bring in your anchor, buffer EX Joudan. Otherwise, always go for launcher.


Playing a Shoto competitively is a test of mental alertness. You must constantly be prepared to anti-air any attempt your opponent makes to jump while simultaneously focusing on controlling their grounded movement using your normals and fireballs. A solid Ryu player wins by controlling the space horizontally in front of and diagonally above them using their normals, fireballs, and DP. If this is not your approach, you will not be likely to become consistent against formidable competition.

If you want to improve your fundamentals, don't jump. Ever. You will find yourself forced to keep your opponent grounded as well, and then ensues the game we call "footsies". Learning the fine points of the footsies game can be complicated. First, I would just recommend forcing yourself not to jump and see where that takes you. Watch as many matches between solid players as you can and ask yourself why they're doing what they're doing. If you don't know, ask.

HunterSFL

Hey, just stopping in to say a couple of things. One, I definitely plan on contributing to this thread, but this is kind of a bad time to start, so I might not have time to get into this for a short while. However, I definitely will once I'm able.

Two, I actually started writing some stuff in this thread earlier, and then my power went out and I lost what I started. Basically, I just wanted to explain how I'm going to approach giving feedback. The way Vulcan posted, with a full breakdown of everything with timestamps is my first instinct on how to supply feedback, but in general, I'm going to stay away from that for two reasons.

First, because it's exceptionally time consuming, but more importantly because I think it's excessive and unnecessary for most critiques. I think if I provide someone with a laundry list of 10 smaller things they can improve on, it's too overwhelming to try to work on them all at once. I'd rather focus on the biggest, most obvious area they can improve, which will give potential for the biggest growth. This also can let the person work on that one thing, then make a new video after the improvement to see what the next major area for improvement is. The only time I will likely do a complete breakdown of "nitpicks" is if the person is good enough that there isn't anything really major that they can work on, and their areas to improve are going to be smaller things.

With that said, I'll get to these first couple of videos in the next day or so, and then like I said, I'll check back in with this thread in about a week or so.

Intuitive2011

HunterSFL, post: 7597969, member: 2588 wrote:

Hey, just stopping in to say a couple of things. One, I definitely plan on contributing to this thread, but this is kind of a bad time to start, so I might not have time to get into this for a short while. However, I definitely will once I'm able.

Two, I actually started writing some stuff in this thread earlier, and then my power went out and I lost what I started. Basically, I just wanted to explain how I'm going to approach giving feedback. The way Vulcan posted, with a full breakdown of everything with timestamps is my first instinct on how to supply feedback, but in general, I'm going to stay away from that for two reasons.

First, because it's exceptionally time consuming, but more importantly because I think it's excessive and unnecessary for most critiques. I think if I provide someone with a laundry list of 10 smaller things they can improve on, it's too overwhelming to try to work on them all at once. I'd rather focus on the biggest, most obvious area they can improve, which will give potential for the biggest growth. This also can let the person work on that one thing, then make a new video after the improvement to see what the next major area for improvement is. The only time I will likely do a complete breakdown of "nitpicks" is if the person is good enough that there isn't anything really major that they can work on, and their areas to improve are going to be smaller things.

With that said, I'll get to these first couple of videos in the next day or so, and then like I said, I'll check back in with this thread in about a week or so.

Thank you, Ryan. For contributing. Feel free to NOT respond to messages if you feel they've been adequately responded to, or if you can contribute something more.

DocDignity

I think we don't need to make a general rule how to critique.
Like Ryan said, a detailed critique like Vulcan's is amazing. But if I look at myself, a general impression from other players (not necessarily only the top ones) can and will help an average player like me to improve.
I think I am quite harsh to myself usually because I know how much I autopilot, etc. But others telling you that and pointing out these weakness makes it a bit clearer.

I hope I can upload a couple of matches against Songi because I think that's the other great thing about this threat: pointing out what you do wrong against certain chars.
I'm sure it will help me a lot, because I have hardly played a good Lilli or Xiao, so I hope my asskicking + your critique will help me to learn these matchups.

silph

I will be posting regularly in this thread as well focusing on damage optimization. As matches are posted, I will analyze each opportunity you had for damage during the game and post the optimal combo option for each situation with a brief explanation of the hows and whys. I may also provide some thoughts for general gameplay, but most of that I'll leave to Ryan and Hades.

BadIntent

Hmm, I see some interesting comments here but just saying about footsies... Make sure if you gonna just whiff normals and buffer them into fireball, launch, whatever that you're playing someone that can't see that. The reason I prefer low forward fireball over whiffing low forward is because a lot of people are gonna just B-C-launch you when they see you whiff a normal.

Intuitive2011

BadIntent, post: 7606309, member: 58968 wrote:

Hmm, I see some interesting comments here but just saying about footsies... Make sure if you gonna just whiff normals and buffer them into fireball, launch, whatever that you're playing someone that can't see that. The reason I prefer low forward fireball over whiffing low forward is because a lot of people are gonna just B-C-launch you when they see you whiff a normal.

I'm curious to know, how would you know they buffered a fireball if they just done a Cr.Mk, for instance. Thanks for your input.

BadIntent

Intuitive2011, post: 7606324, member: 66101 wrote:

I'm curious to know, how would you know they buffered a fireball if they just done a Cr.Mk, for instance. Thanks for your input.

I meant they can just b-c-launch regardless of whether you buffered anything or not. Example, player A is Cammy and player B whiffs low forward. Doesn't matter what or if player A buffered anything into low forward, player B can react to that and use Cammy's b-c-launch will catch it. Now if player A used low forward into fireball and it was blocked it's only -6 and safe from anything Cammy can do (including reversal Super).

ShadolooDoll

This thread is a great idea because one of the things my game is lacking is damage optimization. This was my most recent one. Thanks in advance.




NOTES:
My buttons are crapping out (notably my forward) so I had to triple tap a few things. On round 2, finger slipped to roundhouse resulting in an ex pinwheel. Meant to do low forward into hk pinwheel cancel to Bison and end the match. So that was an accident from multi-tapping.

I dropped a few combos, that was my fault.
I need to break the habit of doing crouch mk instead of stand fp into pinwheel on juri's jump cancel. That's my fault.

Intuitive2011

SniperNightOwl, post: 7606392, member: 23575 wrote:

This thread is a great idea because one of the things my game is lacking is damage optimization. This was my most recent one. Thanks in advance.




NOTES:
My buttons are crapping out (notably my forward) so I had to triple tap a few things. On round 2, finger slipped to roundhouse resulting in an ex pinwheel. Meant to do low forward into hk pinwheel cancel to Bison and end the match. So that was an accident from multi-tapping.

I dropped a few combos, that was my fault.
I need to break the habit of doing crouch mk instead of stand fp into pinwheel on juri's jump cancel. That's my fault.

I'm unfamiliar with your characters, if I'm honest. But that match was beautiful! A few things though, you got hit by wake DP a few times, maybe it's me, but I thought it was obvious that he was going for it. (I guess it's because I play that exact team). Be careful with your jumps, your opposition didn't do it, but it's easy to auto correct a DP. And if you trade hits, it's still in his favour, as your characters have low health and DPs hurt! Obviously, I'm sure a new stick is on the cards for you. You didn't press your advantage against Ken after he done Cr.Mk > Fireball. Remember, his is -9. In fact, I don't even think it's a true blockstring, I'll spend some time in the lab to clarify that. I'm sure you know this, but Bison's S.Mk is an amazing footsie tool against Shoto Cr.Mk, as for Ken's F+MK, you can use Cr.Mp, and I believe, St.Hk (with Bison) to negate that. Overall, it was solid play.

ShadolooDoll

Intuitive2011, post: 7606422, member: 66101 wrote:

I'm unfamiliar with your characters, if I'm honest. But that match was beautiful! A few things though, you got hit by wake DP a few times, maybe it's me, but I thought it was obvious that he was going for it. (I guess it's because I play that exact team). Be careful with your jumps, your opposition didn't do it, but it's easy to auto correct a DP. And if you trade hits, it's still in his favour, as your characters have low health and DPs hurt! Obviously, I'm sure a new stick is on the cards for you. You didn't press your advantage against Ken after he done Cr.Mk > Fireball. Remember, his is -9. In fact, I don't even think it's a true blockstring, I'll spend some time in the lab to clarify that. I'm sure you know this, but Bison's S.Mk is an amazing footsie tool against Shoto Cr.Mk, as for Ken's F+MK, you can use Cr.Mp, and I believe, St.Hk (with Bison) to negate that. Overall, it was solid play.

Thanks. With Ken, are you referring to when he first did the low forward xx fireball (0:15?) If so, I thought about punishing that with my own forward, but I was afraid he would mash dp (like a bait set up), so I paused to see what kind of player/habits he had. I know its negative but at that range I wasn't sure if I could get him in time, so that was me being safe. I could be totally wrong and indeed miss a free punish, wasn't sure. Did I? Yeah, I should of used more stand forward from Bison. Also, his forward + mk was getting annoying, what do you mean by negating with crouch mp or hk?

Intuitive2011

SniperNightOwl, post: 7606435, member: 23575 wrote:

Thanks. With Ken, are you referring to when he first did the low forward xx fireball (0:15?) If so, I thought about punishing that with my own forward, but I was afraid he would mash dp (like a bait set up), so I paused to see what kind of player/habits he had. I know its negative but at that range I wasn't sure if I could get him in time, so that was me being safe. I could be totally wrong and indeed miss a free punish, wasn't sure. Did I? Yeah, I should of used more stand forward from Bison. Also, his forward + mk was getting annoying, what do you mean by negating with crouch mp or hk?

Sorry, I should have time quoted. :P Yes, that's the precise moment I'm talking about. Well look at it like this, you still had the balls to walk up and throw when he had meter, so why not punish him for doing that with St.Mk? At best, I believe, MP DP would hit once, HP DP would also hit once. Just remember, at close ranges it COULD be a bait, but at that range, I doubt it, as the situation doesn't favour him. Your 'did I' part, what was you referring to?
In regards to negating F+MK, I mean you could stuff it completely with Cr.Mp, although it has to be done on reaction, or trade with it by using St.Hk.

Testing Bison against Ken's F+MK:

You can use St.Mk, Cr.Mp and St.Hk to stuff it. With the latter netting you CH properties equaling to 112 damage (St.Hk).

ShadolooDoll

Intuitive2011, post: 7606475, member: 66101 wrote:

Sorry, I should have time quoted. :P Yes, that's the precise moment I'm talking about. Well look at it like this, you still had the balls to walk up and throw when he had meter, so why not punish him for doing that with St.Mk? At best, I believe, MP DP would hit once, HP DP would also hit once. Just remember, at close ranges it COULD be a bait, but at that range, I doubt it, as the situation doesn't favour him. Your 'did I' part, what was you referring to?
In regards to negating F+MK, I mean you could stuff it completely with Cr.Mp, although it has to be done on reaction, or trade with it by using St.Hk.

Testing Bison against Ken's F+MK:

You can use St.Mk, Cr.Mp and St.Hk to stuff it. With the latter netting you CH properties equaling to 112 damage (St.Hk).

Good stuff! You answered all my questions. I didn't know I could stuff his step kick thing. Thanks a lot!

Intuitive2011

SniperNightOwl, post: 7606477, member: 23575 wrote:

Good stuff! You answered all my questions. I didn't know I could stuff his step kick thing. Thanks a lot!

No worries, I hope you show us a clip of you destroying Kens for free. :)

Vulcan Hades

BadIntent, post: 7606386, member: 58968 wrote:

I meant they can just b-c-launch regardless of whether you buffered anything or not. Example, player A is Cammy and player B whiffs low forward. Doesn't matter what or if player A buffered anything into low forward, player B can react to that and use Cammy's b-c-launch will catch it. Now if player A used low forward into fireball and it was blocked it's only -6 and safe from anything Cammy can do (including reversal Super).

How are you going to reach me with your tiny limbs if I'm whiffing from out of range in the first place? Your scenario assumes that you are in range to whiff punish me but in practice you wouldn't be able to reach 90% of the time unless your poke interrupts mine as a counter hit, which isn't the same as whiff punishing.

In the recent set between Tokido and Gamerbee, when Cody was out vs Julia they were both doing nothing else than fishing for cross-rush and occasional jump in to catch the opponent off guard. Yet, neither Tokido or Gamerbee were able to whiff punish their opponent on reaction. In fact, the only whiff punish I saw in the whole set was Gamerbee using Julia's Super to whiff punish a whiffed c.lk or s.mk from Cody. The rest was mainly counter hits which isn't done on reaction but more on anticipation. They wait a bit and throw a delayed poke to counter poke. But again that's nearly impossible to do on reaction you do it as a guess. I'm not saying whiff punishing is impossible, but it certainly is a lot harder/riskier than AE, especially if the opponent is able to space their pokes just right and throw them at unexpected times. Even good players have trouble reacting to a 15-20 frames overhead and trouble reacting to CADC so how the hell are they going to react to a s.lk/c.mk and whiff punish even though they can't even geometrically reach in time?

Gamerbee isn't the best Julia player and Tokido isn't the best Cody. But these guys have a solid grasp of footsies/spacing in almost any game they play. So if they could react and whiff punish I'm sure we would've seen it more but it just didn't happen that often.

And in the thousands of games I've played online and offline I've yet to fight another player that could consistently whiff punish my buffered pokes on reaction. That's only going to happen if I'm being predictable with my pokes or spacing them real bad.

Thancruz

Vulcan Hades, post: 7607792, member: 26486 wrote:

How are you going to reach me with your tiny limbs if I'm whiffing from out of range in the first place? Your scenario assumes that you are in range to whiff punish me but in practice you wouldn't be able to reach 90% of the time unless your poke interrupts mine as a counter hit, which isn't the same as whiff punishing.

In the recent set between Tokido and Gamerbee, when Cody was out vs Julia they were both doing nothing else than fishing for cross-rush and occasional jump in to catch the opponent off guard. Yet, neither Tokido or Gamerbee were able to whiff punish their opponent on reaction. In fact, the only whiff punish I saw in the whole set was Gamerbee using Julia's Super to whiff punish a whiffed c.lk or s.mk from Cody. The rest was mainly counter hits which isn't done on reaction but more on anticipation. They wait a bit and throw a delayed poke to counter poke. But again that's nearly impossible to do on reaction you do it as a guess. I'm not saying whiff punishing is impossible, but it certainly is a lot harder/riskier than AE, especially if the opponent is able to space their pokes just right and throw them at unexpected times. Even good players have trouble reacting to a 15-20 frames overhead and trouble reacting to CADC so how the hell are they going to react to a s.lk/c.mk and whiff punish even though they can't even geometrically reach in time?

Gamerbee isn't the best Julia player and Tokido isn't the best Cody. But these guys have a solid grasp of footsies/spacing in almost any game they play. So if they could react and whiff punish I'm sure we would've seen it more but it just didn't happen that often.

And in the thousands of games I've played online and offline I've yet to fight another player that could consistently whiff punish my buffered pokes on reaction. That's only going to happen if I'm being predictable with my pokes or spacing them real bad.

It's still hard to believe that these 2 players who in AE come up with these marvelous set ups,combos,etc. With their respective characters are just fishing for back and forth boosting when both of their "best" characters have more than enough damage output and better set ups that is far beyond llllllllmhh. Not to take away that they have reactions,footsies,spacing etc., just seems so disappointing.

-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums

Empryrean

I'd like to note how apeshit I went on the double mashing, for some reason I couldn't get anything to work against him without having to at least double input it. Save for the combos, even then I doubled the special attacks.