The Competition of Street Fighter X Tekken

silph

In my opinion, Street Fighter X Tekken is the most competitively rewarding Capcom fighting IP to be released this generation.

In this thread I will enumerate the reasons why, but first let's attempt to define what makes a game a good candidate for competitive play.

To what degree does the game reward skill?
How much does random chance effect the outcome of matches?
How often does a player win undeservedly?
What percentage of the time does the better player win?
What particular skills are involved in determining who wins and loses?
How balanced is the game overall?

The answers to these questions should lead you to a conclusive statement regarding the competitive viability of any game.

The basis for my position on SFxT's competitive merit is due to its placement of skill values. Any given game will have a series of skills most important to achieving victory. In SFxT they are as follows in no particular order:

• Decision making/problem solving

Meter and health management

• Spacial awareness/judgement

Zoning

• Ratio of observation to comprehension and application

Observing and exploiting tendencies shown by your opponent

• Judgement of probability in response to observation

Reads

• Reaction time

Punishes

• Tactile dexterity

Execution

• Mental alertness and multitasking

Dividing focus between multiple gameplay objectives at once

You may observe that these skills are common among many fighting games. The difference between games is in what order of importance they are placed. SFxT in my opinion values decision making and problem solving above other skills. The player who manages their health and meter the most efficiently while also optimizing their damage output gains a great advantage. Following that I would place with others with near equality to eachother, perhaps placing slightly higher value on mental alertness and multitasking.

The reason I find this game to be a particularly excellent test of skill is that it cuts out as much uninvolved guessing as possible and in effect the better player is orders of magnitude more likely to win. There is a difference between "mind games" and simple guessing games. Correspondingly, in SFxT the value of okizeme is replaced by increased value of footsies skill. In my opinion, the ground game is the most dynamic element of Street Fighter, involving all aspects the series has held dear simultaneously, and is the best place to determine a victor. SFxT obliges this notion, and for that I believe it should receive a great deal more attention in the competitive scene.

Another thing I would like to address is the game's notable lack of a comeback mechanic. I feel this allows it leaps and bounds in terms of competitiveness. Personally I have never enjoyed mechanics designed to facilitate comebacks. I believe they should be earned, and again, SFxT obliges. It is much more exciting to see a player turn a match around through a series of excellent moves and reads than it is to see a match go the other way in a matter of one shot. Many players excel at making comebacks against dire odds and in my opinion comeback mechanics don't do them justice.

My judgement of a game's competitive potential is based on how well solid, calculated, and thoughtful play is rewarded. Street Fighter X Tekken is a game that values gameplay incorporating those aspects above all else, and for that it should receive respect.

EDIT: Note that this post has been completely rewritten from its original composition. I felt comparing SFxT to other games was not constructive.

Scrub Saibot

To what degree does the game reward skill?
How much does random chance effect the outcome of matches?
How often does a player win undeservedly?
What percentage of the time does the better player win?
What particular skills are involved in determining who wins and loses?
How balanced is the game overall?

None of these are relevant in determining what makes a game competitive. A competitive game is any game that people play to win against other people at. Mario Party could be competitive if people decide to take it seriously.

Both players generally make a decision or move every single second that will determine who will be taking damage and who will be receiving it.

How is this different than any other fighting game played at a high level?

However, the game is riddled with aspects that discourage solid, calculated play. The game can be very unforgiving. Many characters possess mix-ups that are unavoidable, result in crippling damage, and are so ambiguous that often times even the attacker isn't sure what the correct way to block will be. Outright guessing games of this manner that can determine so quickly the outcome of a match are not good for competitive play.

You think those mixups are not a part of calculated play? Do you know how long people spend in training mode devising mixups? That sounds like calculated strategy to me.

Also, no mixup is unavoidable. Even in a 100% unblockable situation, the way to avoid such a setup would be to not allow your opponent to put you in that setup. It's called mindgames. People will find high concept mixups in any game if they are motivated, even in shit like War Gods.

Re: x-factor. I don't really play Marvel so I'm not going to go into much detail about this, but how often when watching high level footage do you see someone get their ass handed to them on a platter and then x-factor their anchor to go on and obliterate the entire opposing team? Not very often. This is because smart play will always come out on top against easy, braindead strategies. By the time the anchor is coming into the screen the other guy, if a good player, will have already organized a setup to fluster the opponent and trick them into getting hit. They won't even give them enough time to pop x-factor.

No fighting game should reward one decision or guess this heavily.

You mean like ABC baby combo off of a jab for 400-500 damage as well as making one of your characters safe?

Did Player 2 deserve to win the round after being outplayed because Player 1 made a single incorrect read towards the end? Absolutely, positively, NO.

Absolutely, positively, yes. Player 1 chose to do something incredibly stupid in an obvious situation and did not consider the possibility that the opponent might try a random ultra. He failed to predict. He lost the mindgame and thus the match. Your reasoning is just scrubbiness hiding behind principles.

Baiting pokes with focus attacks is just a another form of whiff punishing. Whiff punishing without focus attacks exists in SF4 as well. Try doing random focus attacks in an SF4 match and see how far you get. The other guy will just walk up and throw or do an armour breaking move.

Getting into your opponent's head is the backbone of all fighting game fundamentals. Footsies is absolutely not an exception to this. Your definition of footsie "skill" is intentionally vague and separate from mindgames because you don't want to accept that mindgames are a part of fighting games. "Skill" is just your version of scrub honour. You are trying to call your loss to mindgames "randomness" in order to justify your lack of real skill.

None of your factors for winning or losing at Cross Tekken are different than any other fighting. So what, I ask you, makes SFxT so special?

The answer is nothing.

Any game can be a competitive game, but that does not mean that every game can be a GOOD competitive game.

SFxT is not a good competitive game.

w00denTEETH

I don't see how you can make a legitimate argument about SF4's competitive viability considering the number of players who have entered tournaments for the game and the fact that randoms have basically accomplished nothing.

Claiming that there was a little bit of character armor in Vanilla (Sagat maybe), Super (Honda maybe), AE (Yun probably) is kind of valid but I really can't see any in AE2012.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611518, member: 50248 wrote:

SFxT is not a good competitive game.

why?

SF-Zero2

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611518, member: 50248 wrote:

None of your factors for winning or losing at Cross Tekken are different than any other fighting. So what, I ask you, makes SFxT so special?

The answer is nothing.

Any game can be a competitive game, but that does not mean that every game can be a GOOD competitive game.

SFxT is not a good competitive game.

EDIT: Surprised to see you re-posted this in the Scrubquotes thread when you said that. Is that irony?

Okay, then what makes SFxT not a good competitive game? Because it isn't as popular? If there's nothing special about it, what makes MVC3 and SSFAE good competitive games in the same respect?
Please save the "it's a badly designed fighting game" bullshit crutch rhetoric, since every fighting game can be leveled that criticism based on personal perspective/preference. I want specifics.
I'm curious to see how you answer this....I have a feeling it's going to be funny.

Norieaga

Scrub Saibot

Ok, so why is SFxT a bad competitive game? SF4 has some of the biggest bullshit in a fighting game I've ever seen. Focus attacks, tons of mashing, comeback ultras, more 50/50's than usual, unblockables, and other nonsense. I remember in an Excellent Adventures video where Mike Ross literally said Ibuki has no matchups, just a random vortex. That's a pro player's opinion.

I accept your argument that any fighter can be competitive, but I don't see how SFxT can be a bad competitive game while SF4 is a good one. That engine has too much BS - way too much! You explain to me how Jyobin, a guy throwing out random SRK's and ultras, is able to actually win games! Hell, didn't he win at least one match off Daigo? I love watching the guy play, but he's all over the place sometimes! Then there are BS characters like El Fuerte who are a product of the SF4 engine.

If SF4 is a good competitive game then SFxT has to be one as well; if SFxT is bad then so is SF4.

SGLeroy

I completely agree with this thread, SF4 and MvC3 are more popular due to having almost no bad sides and almost nothing about them that the community can hate at this point besides SF4's gameplay having things people don't like but can move past like focus and ultra, and MvC3... well mvc3 had a DHC glich and infinites and super unbalanced characters and its super random... but its marvel so it could be practically unviable in a competitive setting and still be poplar/competitive.

Vulcan Hades

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611518, member: 50248 wrote:

You mean like ABC baby combo off of a jab for 400-500 damage

haha, I love it when random people who don't even play a game make random claims like this. First, you would barely get more than 300 damage for an ABC combo and a good portion of that damage would be in grey health. Second, baby combo lol. You need to understand that ABC and switch canceling makes this game a lot more footsie heavy. In AE you can eat a bunch of standing roundhouse from Adon and still comeback from behind, but in this game getting hit by 1 of his roundhouse would mean 300 of your health is gone. So my point is, even though chains are kinda stupid and aimed to help casual players, they don't really make the game easier to play. On the contrary, it means players without good fundamentals and without advanced footsie knowledge will really struggle in this game (at higher levels of course).

Scrub Saibot wrote:

SFxT is not a good competitive game.

Interesting point of view... Too bad you have zero arguments to back that up.


For the topic.. While I agree with most of what Silph is trying to say, I don't think this is the right attitude to have. Saying things like "my game is better than yours" can only isolate this community from the other ones. Just like the Tekken community has isolated itself by claiming their game was the hardest fighting game in the universe and that only the smartest and most skilled players on earth should be allowed to play it. /dramatisation

kojibeoulve

This thread can only end in pain and sadness. Well, at least make it interesting people.

Mr. X

Baiting

DanDan

Y'all niggas clearly haven't played KOF XIII...
Shame...

silph

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611518, member: 50248 wrote:

You mean like ABC baby combo off of a jab for 400-500 damage as well as making one of your characters safe?

Combos starting from jabs or cross rushes generally cannot do 400-500 damage without being an extraordinarily inefficient use of meter.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611518, member: 50248 wrote:

Absolutely, positively, yes. Player 1 chose to do something incredibly stupid in an obvious situation and did not consider the possibility that the opponent might try a random ultra. He failed to predict. He lost the mindgame and thus the match. Your reasoning is just scrubbiness hiding behind principles.

Baiting pokes with focus attacks is just a another form of whiff punishing. Whiff punishing without focus attacks exists in SF4 as well. Try doing random focus attacks in an SF4 match and see how far you get. The other guy will just walk up and throw or do an armour breaking move.

Getting into your opponent's head is the backbone of all fighting game fundamentals. Footsies is absolutely not an exception to this. Your definition of footsie "skill" is intentionally vague and separate from mindgames because you don't want to accept that mindgames are a part of fighting games. "Skill" is just your version of scrub honour. You are trying to call your loss to mindgames "randomness" in order to justify your lack of real skill.

None of your factors for winning or losing at Cross Tekken are different than any other fighting. So what, I ask you, makes SFxT so special?

The answer is nothing.

If you seriously believe a player should be allowed a win because of one correct guess after being beaten in every other manner, I don't think you belong in a discussion about competition. In a game of soccer if the home team is leading by 10 points to their opponent's 3, a single goal on the away team's part should not earn them a win, and it doesn't. Comeback mechanics of this magnitude are awful for competitive play and I don't see how a reasonable person could think otherwise.

I did make note that the footsies game is not entirely separate from the concept of reading your opponent. However, success in the neutral game is nowhere near as binary as guessing whether or not your opponent will backdash, DP, or block on wakeup. The footsies game is a much better way to decide a match than how many times your opponent guessed wrong after being knocked down.

I also made note that I am not vehemently opposed to the focus attack system. I just feel it subtracts from the traditional ground game. I personally like the mechanic, but feel that without it, more skill is required for victory across the board.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611518, member: 50248 wrote:

How is this different than any other fighting game played at a high level?

I only meant to imply that the game is fast-paced with creative wording. You clearly read this post determined to be a dick about it.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611518, member: 50248 wrote:

None of these are relevant in determining what makes a game competitive. A competitive game is any game that people play to win against other people at. Mario Party could be competitive if people decide to take it seriously.

You're completely missing the point. The objective of the post is to weigh the competitive merits of games, not determine whether they are capable of being played competitively at all. Again, you're clearly intelligent enough to realize this and are just determined to be a prick.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611518, member: 50248 wrote:

You think those mixups are not a part of calculated play? Do you know how long people spend in training mode devising mixups? That sounds like calculated strategy to me.

I'm not saying it is not calculated play on the attacker's part. The issue is that mixups as strong as those in Marvel remove the defenders part in the game. There is nothing wrong with a 50/50 mixup, but when that mixup alone can lose the defender the match outright, I don't believe it to be good for the game. I feel that in offensive situations, the defender should be permitted some way to use his own skills to escape without removing the attacker's earned advantage. There is no mental interaction between players in situations like these. It is nothing more than a guess on the part of the defender and I don't support that. Many times it feels as though you're playing against the game rather than your opponent in Marvel.

Concerning X-Factor, are you telling me you've never seen a Strider player rip through three character with level 3 X and Ouroboros? Just one example...

To be clear I think Marvel is a great game, and objectively speaking an excellent game for competitive play. The reason I think SFxT is competitively superior is that it has fewer random elements and solid players are less likely to lose on a fluke.

You seem to be assuming I'm basing my opinion on this matter on bias from two areas. One, that I'm salty, and two that I'm simply favoring SFxT because it is the game I currently play. I know many players such as yourself like to imply their superiority with nothing to back it up quite often, but I assure you these are not my motivations. I enjoy all three of these games, but my observation from experiences with them is that a victory in SFxT is rarely undeserved. I don't mean to imply that SF4 and MvC3 are not good meters of skill. They are, but there is significantly better chance in these games to be "randomed out".

SUPARNOVAX

Best competitive games of this generation IMO in order:

1. TTT2
2. KOF13
3. SFxT
4. AE2012
5. UMVC3

Guess what? The first three won't be popular in the long run. Why? Because they're consistent games and they're honest. SFxT might be able to retrieve some limelight after Ver.2013 but that's about it.

Most people's definition of "hype" is just seeing people get hit with random shit and then punished to oblivion in UMVC3.

IsshunSengeki

tl;dr warning
Whilst I understand where you're coming from, please don't try and disguise your (admittedly somewhat well-corroborated) opinion as a kind of fact.
Competitive "superiority" and "viability" are misnomers. Most, if not all fighting games available today have some kind of competitive viability, as the "competitiveness" of a game is determined by the players willing to take it seriously, not the mechanics available to the game. As for competitive "superiority", this is purely an opinion.
There are barely any people playing SFxT as is. I should know, as I'm the guy that won't shut up about how the only people left playing the game on Australian XBL are all scrubs that jump too much. This kind of talk is only going to alienate people, and SFxT-haters are going to point out this kind of attitude and turn people off the game even more, which is not what anyone wants.
On the flipside, as far as I'm concerned, there are only four reasons as to why anyone would dislike SFxT at this point.

1. People are still mad salty over Capcom's shady business practices (which is understandable)
2. Gems are still treated with derision by many, specifically the existence of DLC gems (which ties into point 1, otherwise boost gems are fine)
3. Bad representation at EVO arguably caused people to think that what we saw there (2v2, no gems, derp footsies into barely-any-damage ABC combos, time-outs all over the place) to think that was the be-all end-all of high-level SFxT gameplay, which isn't really the case
4. The game just doesn't fit their style (you can't really argue with this, but most people with this viewpoint on SFxT aren't very vocal)

Point one does not prevent SFxT from being a good game, but if you don't believe Capcom should get any profits from the purchase of this game, then by all means, go with that. I'm sure Capcom will have learned their lesson on this by now.
Point two and three are really just misconceptions, and really warrant that you check out the game. There are plenty of guys here that know how the game works, so if you don't feel like playing the game, just watch dudes like JiBbo, RyRy and the like.
As for point four, well, that's cool, man. Just remember that there's a difference between a game being bad and a game being bad for you.
I think I'm done here.

Rokmode

What's the point of making a huge wall of text to support an opinion that no one cares about. Why not simply focus on why you think your game is good instead of why other games are not as good? If the majority still thinks sfxt is a shitty game, why would you start with the "my game is better attitude?" It's sort of ironic that these kinds of threads are made to give people more of an incentive to be more open-minded and try x game yet by trying to make your game look better, you are effectively creating a nearly duplicate effect except the tables shift toward excluding other games for emphasis on your game. You also have to realize that people primarily play games to have fun. You can have an extremely competitively-viable game, but if people do not enjoy it, then they will not play it. The fact that you said marvel is random to support sfxt being better is also laughable considering it's not even true. If you meant randomness as in chaotic, stop trying to rewrite the dictionary. If a game is played competitively, it is a competitive game. In my eyes, a good competitive game is one that is played very competitively as it serves its purpose well in the sense of invoking COMPETITION. I also find it laughable how you act like Sfxt has no flaws either. If you list positive qualities (or qualities you find positive at least) and leave out the negatives, of course your game is going to look better.

I'm not picking any side here. I like to see communities grow, especially when the odds are against them in a sense (although I'm not sure if a free car is against a community), but this is definitely not the way to do it.

silph

Rokmode, post: 7611777, member: 48650 wrote:

What's the point of making a huge wall of text to support an opinion that no one cares about. Why not simply focus on why you think your game is good instead of why other games are not as good? If the majority still thinks sfxt is a shitty game, why would you start with the "my game is better attitude?" It's sort of ironic that these kinds of threads are made to give people more of an incentive to be more open-minded and try x game yet by trying to make your game look better, you are effectively creating a nearly duplicate effect except the tables shift toward excluding other games for emphasis on your game. You also have to realize that people primarily play games to have fun. You can have an extremely competitively-viable game, but if people do not enjoy it, then they will not play it. The fact that you said marvel is random to support sfxt being better is also laughable considering it's not even true. If you meant randomness as in chaotic, stop trying to rewrite the dictionary. If a game is played competitively, it is a competitive game. In my eyes, a good competitive game is one that is played very competitively as it serves its purpose well in the sense of invoking COMPETITION. I also find it laughable how you act like Sfxt has no flaws either. If you list positive qualities (or qualities you find positive at least) and leave out the negatives, of course your game is going to look better.

I'm not picking any side here. I like to see communities grow, especially when the odds are against them in a sense (although I'm not sure if a free car is against a community), but this is definitely not the way to do it.

IsshunSengeki, post: 7611754, member: 18800 wrote:

tl;dr warning
Whilst I understand where you're coming from, please don't try and disguise your (admittedly somewhat well-corroborated) opinion as a kind of fact.
Competitive "superiority" and "viability" are misnomers. Most, if not all fighting games available today have some kind of competitive viability, as the "competitiveness" of a game is determined by the players willing to take it seriously, not the mechanics available to the game. As for competitive "superiority", this is purely an opinion.
There are barely any people playing SFxT as is. I should know, as I'm the guy that won't shut up about how the only people left playing the game on Australian XBL are all scrubs that jump too much. This kind of talk is only going to alienate people, and SFxT-haters are going to point out this kind of attitude and turn people off the game even more, which is not what anyone wants.
On the flipside, as far as I'm concerned, there are only four reasons as to why anyone would dislike SFxT at this point.

1. People are still mad salty over Capcom's shady business practices (which is understandable)
2. Gems are still treated with derision by many, specifically the existence of DLC gems (which ties into point 1, otherwise boost gems are fine)
3. Bad representation at EVO arguably caused people to think that what we saw there (2v2, no gems, derp footsies into barely-any-damage ABC combos, time-outs all over the place) to think that was the be-all end-all of high-level SFxT gameplay, which isn't really the case
4. The game just doesn't fit their style (you can't really argue with this, but most people with this viewpoint on SFxT aren't very vocal)

Point one does not prevent SFxT from being a good game, but if you don't believe Capcom should get any profits from the purchase of this game, then by all means, go with that. I'm sure Capcom will have learned their lesson on this by now.
Point two and three are really just misconceptions, and really warrant that you check out the game. There are plenty of guys here that know how the game works, so if you don't feel like playing the game, just watch dudes like JiBbo, RyRy and the like.
As for point four, well, that's cool, man. Just remember that there's a difference between a game being bad and a game being bad for you.
I think I'm done here.

I suppose I came off a bit overly negative towards Marvel and SF4. I want to be clear I think they are both fantastic games. This post is somewhat of a rebuttal to the community's illogical and often ignorant hatred for SFxT.

IsshunSengeki

silph, post: 7611790, member: 17727 wrote:

I suppose I came off a bit overly negative towards Marvel and SF4. I want to be clear I think they are both fantastic games. This post is somewhat of a rebuttal to the community's illogical and often ignorant hatred for SFxT.

I get ya. The best thing is positive reinforcement. Comparing SFxT to other games is only going to make people think that you're ragging out the other games. Just talk about SFxT's merits, and hopefully, people will listen. :D

Scrub Saibot

When I said that SFxT is not a good competitive game, I should have worded it differently. I should have said "SFxT is a competitive game that is bad and not fun to play". My reasons for this are the following:

-Easy jump ins that are difficult to punish with a standard SRK. This rewards people for being stupid and bypassing good footsies.
-Slow throws that are essentially useless.
-Mashy DPs that can be easily and safely be tag cancelled. You have very little reason not to.
-Easy peasy links means mashing buttons up close is viable.
-The game is fucking hideous, holy shit. Looks and sounds like absolutely garbage. It's hard to get invested in something that is not aesthetically pleasing.
-Easy ABC combo that leads you get 300 damage and makes your guy safe.
-Stupid gems, some of which are only available through promotional events and DLC payment, which are cumbersome to set up and which fuck with tournament legitimacy

That's the gist of it. For me, a game with these qualities is one that is not fun to play, even if it is competitively viable.

Focus attacks, tons of mashing, comeback ultras, more 50/50's than usual, unblockables, and other nonsense.

Your turn. Explain why these are bad. They are not bullshit just because you say so. Also, Mike Ross' opinion is irrelevant. His being a pro player does not matter. You are using an appeal to authority, which is a rhetorical fallacy.

haha, I love it when random people who don't even play a game make random claims like this

I played this game for two months and that's more than enough time for me to decide I don't like a game and to come up with reasons for why I don't like it. Fuck you.

Also ABC combos are easy mode because they require no execution and give you way more benefit than they should. Hard combos are necessary during footsies because they keep you honest by forcing you to make deliberate conversions, not by throwing out jabs and getting dat free ABC. Watch the EVO top 4. Lots of easy ABC combos off of jabs.

In regards to being able to come back after eating a bunch of roundhouses by using an ultra... no, you really cant. Good players will see that coming and will not let you win with a random ultra. And ultras only take off 70% at the ABSOLUTE MOST (So we're talking about 40-50 on average), and that's against Seth, who has so many tools that he needs to take loads of damage for making the slightest mistake. That's not enough for someone to be able to win an entire game after being beaten, not if the other guy was running a train like you say.

OP:

You strongly implied that footsies are separate from mindgames by undermining reads in favour of "footsies skill". There is no difference between the two.

You don't blindly guess if your opponent backdashes or something, you make reads based on their playstyle and their patterns. You are trying to make SF4 look more braindead than it really is.

You're completely missing the point. The objective of the post is to weigh the competitive merits of games, not determine whether they are capable of being played competitively at all. Again, you're clearly intelligent enough to realize this and are just determined to be a prick.

You said competitively VIABLE. That means whether or not it is able to be played competitively regardless of merit. You are also trying to attack me with ad hominem by calling me a prick. That's a rhetorical fallacy.

Negative-Zer0

damn, this scene wants their hands held badly.

Songi

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

more random bs

When you mentioned not being able to punish easy jump-ins with SRK I stopped reading. I'm glad I saved myself the trouble of reading that essay.

silph

Negative-Zer0, post: 7611896, member: 19609 wrote:

damn, this scene wants their hands held badly.

FUCK YOU DICK! YOU DON'T KNOOOOW~ ME!!! BACK YO BITCH ASS UP FO' I GO ALL ABORIGINAL ON YO' ASS!!!

In all seriousness I don't even know what you mean by that...

Negative-Zer0

You guys remind me of the smash bros players that made threads similar to this every six months or so. Lol, just play your damn games and stop lookin for compliments.

IsshunSengeki

Well, looks like this is going to turn into a shit-storm.
-walks off-

Songi

Negative-Zer0, post: 7611938, member: 19609 wrote:

You guys remind me of the smash bros players that made threads similar to this every six months or so. Lol, just play your damn games and stop lookin for compliments.

When you have random nobodies with "Evolution 2012 banners" above their usernames who cannot anti-air simple jump-ins with the most braindead of anti-airs in the entire universe of fighting games, you know there's a problem. I'm just gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was just merely a spectator at the event.

Negative-Zer0

Songi, post: 7611955, member: 72973 wrote:

When you have random nobodies with "Evolution 2012 banners" above their usernames who cannot anti-air simple jump-ins with the most braindead of anti-airs in the entire universe of fighting games, you know there's a problem. I'm just gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was just merely a spectator at the event.

The op that made the exact same dumb ass arguments against the other games. He actually made some really ggood points, which you would get if you, i dunno, read the posts.

Scrub saibot thinks the game is bad, but that is him. He gave reasons why he doesn't play it. K. block out that "must defend no matter what" bias and read the post.

Lord_Raptor

This thread is damn near everything wrong with the SFxT section in a nutshell. Most of you retaqrd defenders barely know anythign about what it means to be competetive in the first place. Shut the fuck up.

Saibaot is an aidiot and none of you should ahve been dumb enough to take the bait. But seeing how most of you ahve only two brain cells to rub together you saw a chance to try and defend the game and look like complete idiots.

silph

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

When I said that SFxT is not a good competitive game, I should have worded it differently. I should have said "SFxT is a competitive game that is bad and not fun to play". My reasons for this are the following:

-Easy jump ins that are difficult to punish with a standard SRK. This rewards people for being stupid and bypassing good footsies.

This is complete bullshit.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

-Slow throws that are essentially useless.

I agree that 7 frames is a bit too slow, however, reducing the strength of universal throws has a purpose. The mix-up game in SF4 at a basic level revolved around making your opponent guess between a tick throw and a frame trap. In SFxT pressure and high-low mixups are stronger across the board. The incentive to escape pressure isn't as much fear of a throw as it is stopping your opponent from building meter and avoiding mix-ups. If throw speed and range were similar to that of SF4, the balance of reward for pressuring an opponent and their ability to escape without significant damage would be tilted arguably too far in the attacker's favor. There is already sufficient reward for obtaining frame advantage without a 3 frame throw.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

-Mashy DPs that can be easily and safely be tag cancelled. You have very little reason not to.

As high as the reward for a successful reversal is, getting baited into one is even higher. In most situations a successful reversal results in approximately 400 damage. In most open punishment situations, over 500 damage can be expected.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

-Easy peasy links means mashing buttons up close is viable

"Mashing buttons up close" has never been a viable attack strategy in any fighting game I've played...

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

-The game is fucking hideous, holy shit. Looks and sounds like absolutely garbage. It's hard to get invested in something that is not aesthetically pleasing.

To each his own. I agree some custom colors can be, to say the least, obnoxious, but I don't think the game overall is "ugly".

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

-Easy ABC combo that leads you get 300 damage and makes your guy safe.

At least this time you're not exaggerating the numbers as heavily, but cross rush combos are still very rarely the optimal way to deal damage in any situation. You will see them used as sparingly as possible at high levels of play.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

-Stupid gems, some of which are only available through promotional events and DLC payment, which are cumbersome to set up and which fuck with tournament legitimacy

This is one place I agree with you to an extent. I think the gem system could have been done much much better than its current implementation.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

Also ABC combos are easy mode because they require no execution and give you way more benefit than they should. Hard combos are necessary during footsies because they keep you honest by forcing you to make deliberate conversions, not by throwing out jabs and getting dat free ABC. Watch the EVO top 4. Lots of easy ABC combos off of jabs.

EVO was an absolutely pathetic representation of this game. The level of play was simply sub-par. Regarding "ABC combos", a player relying on cross rushes to do damage will lose ninety percent of the time to a player dealing damage optimally even if both players on even footing otherwise.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

In regards to being able to come back after eating a bunch of roundhouses by using an ultra... no, you really cant. Good players will see that coming and will not let you win with a random ultra. And ultras only take off 70% at the ABSOLUTE MOST (So we're talking about 40-50 on average), and that's against Seth, who has so many tools that he needs to take loads of damage for making the slightest mistake. That's not enough for someone to be able to win an entire game after being beaten, not if the other guy was running a train like you say.

The notion that Ultra combos delegate wins to players who otherwise would have lost convincingly is a fact. The frequency with which it happens is debatable, but that it happens at all is in my opinion unacceptable.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

OP:

You strongly implied that footsies are separate from mindgames by undermining reads in favour of "footsies skill". There is no difference between the two.

You don't blindly guess if your opponent backdashes or something, you make reads based on their playstyle and their patterns. You are trying to make SF4 look more braindead than it really is.

I have no intention of making SF4 "look braindead". I love the game and played it for a very long time. Okizeme is a similar but distinct aspect of gameplay from footsies. The neutral game is a competition of reactions, mental alertness, and reads. Okizeme is a forum in which both players take calculated risks with the advantage generally being the attacker's favor. There are parallels between these facets of gameplay, but they are not the same. As I said previously, the ground game is much less binary and more dynamic than the wake-up game. I think matches should be decided in a way that incorporates the most skill, and that I feel is seen when neither player has frame-advantage or a knockdown. I would like to note that I do feel that okizeme should be important. I just don't think it should be overly instrumental in determining a winner and loser.[/quote]

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611845, member: 50248 wrote:

You said competitively VIABLE. That means whether or not it is able to be played competitively regardless of merit. You are also trying to attack me with ad hominem by calling me a prick. That's a rhetorical fallacy.

I agree I could have worded things better, but come on now...you are kind of being a prick...

Vulcan Hades

Scrub Saibot wrote:

Jumping rewards people for being stupid and bypassing good footsies.

Scrub Saibot wrote:

Hard combos are necessary during footsies

Jumping is part of the mid-range game, and your inability to deal with jumps when you don't have a full proof DP says a lot about your spacing and overall defense.

Hard combos are a necessity during... footsies...? Oh right, because in AE you are hit confirming 1 frame links "during footsies". And you need to play other games, FADC is not that hard to do at all.

This execution argument is fundamentally flawed anyway, because it implies that the best fighting games are the ones with the hardest to execute moves and combos when combos are in fact the easiest things anyone can do in a game. Combos are what you do on day 1 training mode when everyone is playing the game at the lowest possible level.

Scrub Saibot wrote:

-Easy peasy links means mashing buttons up close is viable.

Wait, I thought you couldn't really mash buttons due to the super safe and no reason not to mash DP tag cancel..

Scrub Saibot wrote:

-Stupid gems, some of which are only available through promotional events and DLC payment which are cumbersome to set up and which fuck with tournament legitimacy

You realize that almost no tournament so far has allowed gems and even less assist/DLC gems right? Don't get me wrong, I also think the idea behind selling gems was incredibly stupid.

Scrub Saibot wrote:

I played this game for two months and that's more than enough time for me to decide I don't like a game and to come up with reasons for why I don't like it. Fuck you..

I don't even care if you really legitimately dislike this game for whatever reason. But if you're going to make claims, make sure they are true. You said ABC was "easy 500 damage" and I simply corrected you. ABC yields the poorest reward and gives opponent the most grey health. The way you get 500 damage in this game is by switch canceling moves, not by spamming ABC.

Scrub Saibot wrote:

In regards to being able to come back after eating a bunch of roundhouses by using an ultra... no, you really cant. Good players will see that coming and will not let you win with a random ultra.

Way to put random words in my mouth. I never said anything about Ultras. I said getting hit by a poke like Adon's standing roundhouse in AE isn't that big of a deal as it is in this game. It's in fact one of the reasons why this game can be boring to watch for some: Players need to be extra careful when they play footsies so top players take very little risk. And the fact that knockdowns don't guarantee you can maintain your pressure it means that half of the time they will reset the situation to the neutral game. Which obviously results in a slower pace game.

But speaking of Ultras, since you brought them up, I thought only scrubs called them random. You're basically saying that the only way you can use an Ultra in AE is by throwing it out randomly which of course isn't true. You can sometimes use it for AA, you can use it to whiff punish, you can use it on reaction to projectiles, you can fish or hit confirm into FADC Ultra. Some characters like Juri and Rose can just Ultra after a simple knockdown and sometimes activate 2 ultras per round. So who are you kidding I don't even think AE players are on your side on this one lol. Everyone knows that Ultras play a big role at high level and are often used to comeback from behind. And even when they aren't used, they are still there, sitting as a threat that players need to constantly keep in mind. So don't say you can't comeback using an ultra, that's precisely what they were designed to be for.

I mained Juri in AE and a big part of her game was basically building meter with fuhajins, absorbing pokes with FA to grind dat precious revenge meter and trying to survive until you get your FSE or Super so you can try to make some kind of flashy comeback. And there's nothing wrong with that. I actually liked that about AE Juri. She was kind of a weak/subpar character until she activated FSE and made you scared for your life. :)

Lord_Raptor, post: 7612021, member: 16179 wrote:

This thread is damn near everything wrong with the SFxT section in a nutshell. Most of you retaqrd defenders barely know anythign about what it means to be competetive in the first place. Shut the fuck up.

Saibaot is an aidiot and none of you should ahve been dumb enough to take the bait. But seeing how most of you ahve only two brain cells to rub together you saw a chance to try and defend the game and look like complete idiots.

Ah, Lord_Raptor.. Sometimes I wonder what we would do without your bitchy buzzkill attitude.

You're right though, this scrub saibot guy is obviously a troll. I just took the flame bait because I felt like it.

silph

Okay okay...I think we all kinda fell for the troll here a little bit too hard...

Emil

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611518, member: 50248 wrote:

You think those mixups are not a part of calculated play? Do you know how long people spend in training mode devising mixups? That sounds like calculated strategy to me

Devising these mixups in practice mode doesn't mean they are calculated...obviously the calculation referred to here is making decisions on which one to use, on the fly. Throwing out a random mixup while say, the opponent's character is coming in, where the choice of the mixup was "it's a pretty good mixup" isn't calculated play.

Scrub Saibot, post: 7611518, member: 50248 wrote:

Absolutely, positively, yes. Player 1 chose to do something incredibly stupid in an obvious situation and did not consider the possibility that the opponent might try a random ultra. He failed to predict. He lost the mindgame and thus the match. Your reasoning is just scrubbiness hiding behind principles.

What "mindgame" was there from the player mashing the random ultra out of desperation? While some random ultras are based on very good intuition, the majority of random ultras are done by players that have already given up the match and are just throwing shit out there as a hail mary without actually understanding what's been going on in the match.

Anyway, my main issue with SFxT has been the "plug and play" execution requirements that can make anyone, even with butter fingers, deal decent damage. Sure, their footsies would be lacking (if they aren't good fundamentally) but even with that, I think the execution is just too easy. Aside from that though, I don't hate the game and I'm going to be playing more of it in the next couple of months.

Vulcan Hades

silph, post: 7612115, member: 17727 wrote:

Okay okay...I think we all kinda fell for the troll here a little bit too hard...

Are you referring to Scrub Saibot or yourself?

OH OH OH

SUPARNOVAX

silph, post: 7612115, member: 17727 wrote:

Okay okay...I think we all kinda fell for the troll here a little bit too hard...

I knew exactly how this thread was going to turn out.



These threads aren't necessary. Just play the game and support it where ever you can and want to. These discussions should highlight the good. You'd be surprised how many people are so misinformed on some aspects of gameplay in SFxT.

silph

Vulcan Hades, post: 7612154, member: 26486 wrote:

Are you referring to Scrub Saibot or yourself?

OH OH OH

Touche.

roknin

SUPARNOVAX, post: 7612166, member: 2393 wrote:

I knew exactly how this thread was going to turn out.



These threads aren't necessary. Just play the game and support it where ever you can and want to. These discussions should highlight the good. You'd be surprised how many people are so misinformed on some aspects of gameplay in SFxT.

Damn, literally was about to post something similar. :-p

The subject matter isn't bad per se for comparison's sake, just presented in the wrong way. The title really doesn't help, as it kinda' immediately gives that adversarial vibe. People will come in to thread arms-up and ready to go.

Anyhow, maybe the thread'll turn around from here.

The Lone Dragon

Lord_Raptor, post: 7612021, member: 16179 wrote:

This thread is damn near everything wrong with the SFxT section in a nutshell. Most of you retaqrd defenders barely know anythign about what it means to be competetive in the first place. Shut the fuck up.

Considering that people have been literally going out of their way to insult SFxT for 8 months, I don't see why anyone is shocked when people go out of their way to defend it. IN ITS OWN FORUM.

But, what do I know.

I only have two brain cells, tops.

IsshunSengeki

I don't know whether or not this adversarial attitude towards each other is due at least in part to the fact that we're on the internet, but with all of the hatred on other games, and by extension, derision towards people that play those games, I'm beginning to doubt whether or not the fighting game community deserves to be called a community at all. :/

Vulcan Hades

roknin, post: 7612220, member: 51740 wrote:

The subject matter isn't bad per se for comparison's sake, just presented in the wrong way. The title really doesn't help, as it kinda' immediately gives that adversarial vibe. People will come in to thread arms-up and ready to go.

Yeah, I agree.. Imagine a similar thread in the Tekken board titled: "This is why TTT2 is vastly superior to SFxT in every possible way and why SFxT scrubs should drop their game and pick this up". lol that's probably the best way to forever turn off an entire community. It doesn't really make you want to try their game.

I'm sure Silph had good intentions with this thread but it just had a unnecessary provocative title and wasn't really necessary in the first place.

roknin

The Lone Dragon, post: 7612239, member: 4398 wrote:

Considering that people have been literally going out of their way to insult SFxT for 8 months, I don't see why anyone is shocked when people go out of their way to defend it. IN ITS OWN FORUM.

But, what do I know.

I only have two brain cells, tops.

Eh, his tone was harsh but the point is there. It's nature to defend, I mean we all do it at some point. But there gets to be a point where it's a waste of energy and its better we show what we think of the game (not saying you haven't because hell yeah you have) instead of arguing here about it. People want to talk crap about it - yay for them. They're not going to be convinced even if the game gave them 100$ every time they played it.

All the energy being put into this thread, for example, could go to the character forums. :-p

Not saying that as if I don't do it by the way. I have my "must battle the haters" moments. Just less so lately I guess.

silph

Vulcan Hades, post: 7612282, member: 26486 wrote:

Yeah, I agree.. Imagine a similar thread in the Tekken board titled: "This is why TTT2 is vastly superior to SFxT in every possible way and why SFxT scrubs should drop their game and pick this up". lol that's probably the best way to forever turn off an entire community. It doesn't really make you want to try their game.

I'm sure Silph had good intentions with this thread but it just had a unnecessary provocative title and wasn't really necessary in the first place.

Nah I was just trolling. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt though.

Just kidding....or am I?

Negative-Zer0

roknin, post: 7612419, member: 51740 wrote:

Eh, his tone was harsh but the point is there. It's nature to defend, I mean we all do it at some point. But there gets to be a point where it's a waste of energy and its better we show what we think of the game (not saying you haven't because hell yeah you have) instead of arguing here about it. People want to talk crap about it - yay for them. They're not going to be convinced even if the game gave them 100$ every time they played it.

All the energy being put into this thread, for example, could go to the character forums. :-p

Not saying that as if I don't do it by the way. I have my "must battle the haters" moments. Just less so lately I guess.

Its a waste of energy and defending sfxt all the time does not even do the community any good.

Belittling other games to make yours look better is not the way to do it. Maybe some don't like practically having heavy decision making the entire match. If the way your game plays does not appeal to the masses, there is nothing you can do about it. How about The energy used defending SFxT can be used to show the good qualities of the game. It'd put a good look on you guys if you have a positive atmosphere rather than a very judo defensive one. Shrug the haters and do you. That will get you more players than forum arguments would. Its a waste of time.

Lord_Raptor

Yeah that's the problem, you idiots constantly try to defend the game and sing it's praises by shittalking other games, games most of you barely even fucking know the basics of. People here need to shut the fuck up and keep other games out of there mouths and focus on building up this one.

I hate cuz I love.

silph

Lord_Raptor, post: 7612575, member: 16179 wrote:

Yeah that's the problem, you idiots constantly try to defend the game and sing it's praises by shittalking other games, games most of you barely even fucking know the basics of. People here need to shut the fuck up and keep other games out of there mouths and focus on building up this one.

I hate cuz I love.

WHOA THERE COWBOY!

The Lone Dragon

Don't argue with him, man. You wouldn't last a second.

After all, we don't have the brain cells, and we've never played any other fighting games besides SFxT.

Lord_Raptor

Hey Dragon, you weren't included in that little spiel.

Vulcan Hades

Lord_Raptor, post: 7612695, member: 16179 wrote:

Hey Dragon, you weren't included in that little spiel.

Was I included? Because I only talk about the games I actually play or have played and like (AE, MK9 and TTT2).

If you're not including anyone in your insults, then don't make that kind of post. Actually, instead of talking shit, doing your drama queen and acting all superior you should try and contribute something more constructive around here. You know, something that doesn't involve insulting people and saying some random horseshit. Just a thought.

Just looked at your recent posts in the Marvel boards and anywhere else you post and it's always the same thing:

Lord_Raptor, post: 7612686, member: 16179 wrote:

That SFxT Superiority thread makes me wanna bang my head against a wall. Actually that whole forum does.

Lord_Raptor, post: 7612706, member: 16179 wrote:

I love the game but fuck the forum goers outside of a few are dumb as shit.

roknin

Geez. Am I going to have to separate you people now?

BossFIGHTJunkie

I've had the same argument as you for the longest time. You are 100% correct. However there is one major thing you forgot to better your argument.

Wakeup game.

Rolling in SFXT for the most part takes away the wakeup-vortex that SF4 players rely so heavily on. Which means players have to rely on footsies, MUCH more in SFXT then SF4. This is good because learning footsies is about 75000000000x harder to master then mastering wakeup-game. Hence helping the more skillful player achieve victory.

rayplay

I find SFXT to be the best (new) capcom fighter out this gen.

roknin

BossFIGHTJunkie, post: 7612914, member: 20177 wrote:

I've had the same argument as you for the longest time. You are 100% correct. However there is one major thing you forgot to better your argument.

Wakeup game.

Rolling in SFXT for the most part takes away the wakeup-vortex that SF4 players rely so heavily on. Which means players have to rely on footsies, MUCH more in SFXT then SF4. This is good because learning footsies is about 75000000000x harder to master then mastering wakeup-game. Hence helping the more skillful player achieve victory.

I can agree with that, one thing I've always lacked in 2D games - well aside from everything else - is a solid understanding and feel of footsies. SFxT definitely is giving my a crash course in that, particularly because it's such a large focus in this game.

AndoTheCommando

This was physically painful to read.

EMR

Silph, as a passionate SFxT myself and a strong supporter of this game. I am also an AE player and an active one as well. I was sort offended with your remarks about the game. You brought the random ultra example which unfortunately with all the respect you deserve that complaint was sort of scrubby. If a player gets hit by a random wake up Ultra maybe he is applying some shitty offense on the opponent's wake up for starters. That's the first part you went wrong there.

I suggest with all honesty for the good of SFxT to not try to act out as if SFxT is better than all the other games. This whole SFxT > SFIV and vice versa feud is fucking stupid. I'm sick and tired of hearing people comparing oranges to apples. It doesn't have any healthy results. I actually believe both games reward the better player most of the time. It's just people not taking time to fully understand the psychology within those games and how they are different.

The footsie game in AE is obviously not as strong as in SFxT. But once again you failed to mention the real reason why. Focus attacks are not the culprit. At the highest level you will see C. Viper and Seth as top tier characters. They disregard the footsie game completely because they can roam freely across the screen applying pressure in many ways. Not because they are fishing to release a lvl 2 focus attack on a whiff punish as you seem to think focus attacks destroy footsies. If anything, by your logic I bet you absolutely must hate parrying then. A system mechanic that breaks the norm should not be disregarded but embraced. Just like people (the haters) need to embrace all the cool stuff SFxT brings to the table.

However, I see you have good intentions on defending SFxT but this approach is not the right one. Not only are you not helping the Defense Force cause which should be promoting the game in a competitive view but also people in the Cross Tekken community actually play other games and we don't appreciate fellow SFxTers belittling our other games. This game needs to be defended but it also needs to keep the doors open to the community. Do you want the community to view the SFxT community as a bunch of pricks? I sure as hell won't. So when you actually used that particular tone in your first post you actually came off as sounding like an elitist player.

I will keep on saying that SFxT and AE need to co-exist. They are both unique games on their own right. They are both evolving in very different manners and it's exciting. I watch both AE and SFxT videos on a daily basis and I still get excited watching the progression of each title respectively. Let's just play our games without going into the "My game is better than yours" attitude. It doesn't work. You are forgiven, though. It's all good.

silph

EMR, post: 7612990, member: 46511 wrote:

Silph, as a passionate SFxT myself and a strong supporter of this game. I am also an AE player and an active one as well. I was sort offended with your remarks about the game. You brought the random ultra example which unfortunately with all the respect you deserve that complaint was sort of scrubby. If a player gets hit by a random wake up Ultra maybe he is applying some shitty offense on the opponent's wake up for starters. That's the first part you went wrong there.

I suggest with all honesty for the good of SFxT to not try to act out as if SFxT is better than all the other games. This whole SFxT > SFIV and vice versa feud is fucking stupid. I'm sick and tired of hearing people comparing oranges to apples. It doesn't have any healthy results. I actually believe both games reward the better player most of the time. It's just people not taking time to fully understand the psychology within those games and how they are different.

The footsie game in AE is obviously not as strong as in SFxT. But once again you failed to mention the real reason why. Focus attacks are not the culprit. At the highest level you will see C. Viper and Seth as top tier characters. They disregard the footsie game completely because they can roam freely across the screen applying pressure in many ways. Not because they are fishing to release a lvl 2 focus attack on a whiff punish as you seem to think focus attacks destroy footsies. If anything, by your logic I bet you absolutely must hate parrying then. A system mechanic that breaks the norm should not be disregarded but embraced. Just like people (the haters) need to embrace all the cool stuff SFxT brings to the table.

However, I see you have good intentions on defending SFxT but this approach is not the right one. Not only are you not helping the Defense Force cause which should be promoting the game in a competitive view but also people in the Cross Tekken community actually play other games and we don't appreciate fellow SFxTers belittling our other games. This game needs to be defended but it also needs to keep the doors open to the community. Do you want the community to view the SFxT community as a bunch of pricks? I sure as hell won't. So when you actually used that particular tone in your first post you actually came off as sounding like an elitist player.

I will keep on saying that SFxT and AE need to co-exist. They are both unique games on their own right. They are both evolving in very different manners and it's exciting. I watch both AE and SFxT videos on a daily basis and I still get excited watching the progression of each title respectively. Let's just play our games without going into the "My game is better than yours" attitude. It doesn't work. You are forgiven, though. It's all good.

I agree that my tone was too harsh, but I have tried to make it clear I don't wish to diminish the skills involved in SF4 or Marvel. With regard to your accusation that I am a scrub for disliking Ultras, I just don't think that 10 correct choices followed by 1 incorrect one should lose someone the round. I think that is much more logical than it is scrubby. To be clear I still enjoy SF4 and think it is a very good meter of skill. My point here is only that I would be much more willing to bet money on an SFxT match than an SF4 match.