Stumped against Jack

VegamanVegaman Soak in your own blood!Joined: Posts: 3,560 ✭✭
I alt Gief/Hugo. I know it's not a very synergetic team but it's fun to me. I planned to pick them up before release so I'm not just a bandwagoner...

Now normally I can just counterpick and pick Vega to deal with Jack fairly easily. But i don't want to have to resort to counterpicking.

The problem is that Gief and Hugo dont really have any way to get in. They dont have any way to get past seismo/DP zoning and Jack doesnt have to come in at all. He can sit there full screen and chip for free. Unlike someone like Dhalsim i cant use launcher to get past his full screen poke. Unlike Raven I cant really walk forward because seismo hits twice and pushes me back further than i can walk. Dashing doesnt work because it's too slow on both Gief and Hugo. Monster Lariat armor and Running Bear Grab armor get beat by 2nd hit seismo. EX green hand isnt hit invincible so I end up getting hit outta that. Jumping over is extremely risky but the only way in.... which Jack players usually sit there and look for. You have to jump way early because seismo will hit you outta your jumping frames and 1 wrong read and you've eaten a DP into seismo and you're all the way back at full screen..... Sooo... yeah I'm stumped. Normally I can figure out something like this but i got nothing this time. Cant run, cant walk, cant dash, cant armor, cant jump and cant special through. So.... other than Jack playing like a retard or counterpicking, how do I get in?

Edit: I have to admit that even SF4 Sagat and Dhalsim were not this hard to get in on. But I had a hit invincible EX Green Hand to help out with that.
"Nothing cheaper than something free."
"You must wait at least 28623 seconds before performing this action."
Jun 16, 2011 -- 12:28PM, DarthEnderX wrote:
Makoto is about to have the best day ever.

Comments

  • HertogHertog Joined: Posts: 240
    Just be patient walk, block and Jack will reach the end of the screen and Gief will rape Jack up close.
    Or wait for that one whiffed seismo and close the gap. Remember Jack can't do anything to you when you're fullscreen since his arm projectile gives no chipdamage. So when Jack dashes to get you into his HP seismo range, you dash/jump towards him.
    SSF4:AE Blanka,Guile, T.Hawk and Hakan

    SFxT: Blanka, Jack-X, King, Rolento, Guile and Megaman/Kuma for the trololololol
  • VegamanVegaman Soak in your own blood! Joined: Posts: 3,560 ✭✭
    Just be patient walk, block and Jack will reach the end of the screen and Gief will rape Jack up close.
    Or wait for that one whiffed seismo and close the gap. Remember Jack can't do anything to you when you're fullscreen since his arm projectile gives no chipdamage. So when Jack dashes to get you into his HP seismo range, you dash/jump towards him.

    yeah that first tactic doesnt work at all... because the pushback from seismo is more than I can walk forward inbetween seismos.... the net gain is actually going backwards toward my own corner.

    The 2nd method might be more effective but the issue with that is that jack will recover before gief (or hugo) can cover full screen distance making me forced to block upon landing or recovery from green hand. Then jack can basically push me back into the corner again regardless of how much i walk.

    Dashing with gief or hugo isnt an option.... they just get hit by seismo.
    "Nothing cheaper than something free."
    "You must wait at least 28623 seconds before performing this action."
    Jun 16, 2011 -- 12:28PM, DarthEnderX wrote:
    Makoto is about to have the best day ever.
  • Miguel RossingtonMiguel Rossington Dedicated Nina Williams Player Joined: Posts: 290
    Pushback on seismo is way too much for gief to walk and block. What I usually do is neutral jump until a whiffed seismo(I know its a little risky)and then try and go from there. I usually beat Jack from punishing only now that I think about it. Some jacks that I play always kill them selves. My matchup with him is very iffy. If I get in with Heihachi I tear Jack a new asshole and close up the old one. He can literally do NOTHING if your in there. Same with Gief I think. Most important think i learned was to be patient.
    PSN:Xx_Martin279_xX
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  • Juri_kills_friend!Juri_kills_friend! Leader of the Lili Army Joined: Posts: 2,032
    Pushback on seismo is way too much for gief to walk and block. What I usually do is neutral jump until a whiffed seismo(I know its a little risky)and then try and go from there. I usually beat Jack from punishing only now that I think about it. Some jacks that I play always kill them selves. My matchup with him is very iffy. If I get in with Heihachi I tear Jack a new asshole and close up the old one. He can literally do NOTHING if your in there. Same with Gief I think. Most important think i learned was to be patient.
    see here is the problem once jack-x gets two bars he takes away your option to jump as he can do super arts and punish you and put you back at square one. Your characters are too slow and easy picking for jack-x. he counter picks your whole team. Only hugo has a move that can get him to point a to point b but you'll be punished on your whiff. I know you said you don't want to counter pick him but you might have to in a situation where both your characters lose to only one character. That's just my two cents.
    JOIN THE LILI ARMY! FOFOFOFOFOFOFO!
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  • echelonNYKechelonNYK i like em slow and powerful *kappa* Joined: Posts: 876 ✭✭✭
    Rush him down and mash random buttons=WIN
  • VegamanVegaman Soak in your own blood! Joined: Posts: 3,560 ✭✭
    .
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    you guys got anything? This is the only matchup i cant figure out.
    "Nothing cheaper than something free."
    "You must wait at least 28623 seconds before performing this action."
    Jun 16, 2011 -- 12:28PM, DarthEnderX wrote:
    Makoto is about to have the best day ever.
  • eDaneeDane Joined: Posts: 99
    Just be patient walk, block and Jack will reach the end of the screen and Gief will rape Jack up close.
    Or wait for that one whiffed seismo and close the gap. Remember Jack can't do anything to you when you're fullscreen since his arm projectile gives no chipdamage. So when Jack dashes to get you into his HP seismo range, you dash/jump towards him.

    One issue that Geif has once he finally gets in is that he is big enough to have to block both hits of Jacks HP dp. HP dp does have throw invincibility (aside from a few weird frames), it beats armor (so no charging bear grab to punish), and it allows for a safe tag on block with +frames for the incoming character.

    The unfortunate truth of this matchup is that once Geif gets in, Jack probably has at least 1 bar, so you can't even pressure him comfortably due to a safe tag cancelled HP dp. It's gonna be even worse come 2013, since Geif won't be able to roll in safely.
  • HertogHertog Joined: Posts: 240
    Rush him down and mash random buttons=WIN

    yes this. Don't respect Jack, Bumrush him with Gief if everything else fails.
    He's so helpless up close, I think the match-up will be MUCH harder in v2013 :)
    SSF4:AE Blanka,Guile, T.Hawk and Hakan

    SFxT: Blanka, Jack-X, King, Rolento, Guile and Megaman/Kuma for the trololololol
  • eDaneeDane Joined: Posts: 99
    yes this. Don't respect Jack, Bumrush him with Gief if everything else fails.
    He's so helpless up close, I think the match-up will be MUCH harder in v2013 :)
    If you can manage to get close to him and he doesn't have a bar to tag, this is pretty true. Jack's fastest button is 6f, so you should have plenty of room to work with.
  • HertogHertog Joined: Posts: 240
    If you can manage to get close to him and he doesn't have a bar to tag, this is pretty true. Jack's fastest button is 6f, so you should have plenty of room to work with.

    I main Jack. And the biggest mistake you can make is respect him and try to time your attacks.
    I'll be laughing and earning meter for his unbelievable super-art.
    Just be patient, and when you got your chance go all out and jab/cross-up/boost-combo him to hell.

    It sounds scrubby, but it's effective.
    SSF4:AE Blanka,Guile, T.Hawk and Hakan

    SFxT: Blanka, Jack-X, King, Rolento, Guile and Megaman/Kuma for the trololololol
  • echelonNYKechelonNYK i like em slow and powerful *kappa* Joined: Posts: 876 ✭✭✭
    yes this. Don't respect Jack, Bumrush him with Gief if everything else fails.
    He's so helpless up close, I think the match-up will be MUCH harder in v2013 :)

    I'm speaking from experience :(
  • HertogHertog Joined: Posts: 240
    I'm speaking from experience :(

    I love the bison match-up :D

    I can whack him out of the sky during all his special moves. It's crazy
    SSF4:AE Blanka,Guile, T.Hawk and Hakan

    SFxT: Blanka, Jack-X, King, Rolento, Guile and Megaman/Kuma for the trololololol
  • DocDignityDocDignity Joined: Posts: 380
    you guys got anything? This is the only matchup i cant figure out.
    Unfortunately I don't really have much new tech. I often wait for the Seismo and try to get that moment in this kinda magic range where your jHP from max range connects as soon as he goes down for seismo. This match is all about anticipation. It's so awful.
    The EX Hand could work against MP Dp happy Jack because of it being a projectile, but you only have that to a certain degree and a certain player level. At your level, just surrender :D

    If you still play this team in ver2013 and beat a good Jack, I will salute you. It's gonna be such a pain in the backside. Especially because of the roll change shit.
  • Juri_kills_friend!Juri_kills_friend! Leader of the Lili Army Joined: Posts: 2,032
    or you could pick up a pocket lili and rape the hell outta jack-x >.>;;; just sayin.
    JOIN THE LILI ARMY! FOFOFOFOFOFOFO!
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  • VegamanVegaman Soak in your own blood! Joined: Posts: 3,560 ✭✭
    or you could pick up a pocket lili and rape the hell outta jack-x >.>;;; just sayin.
    i don't like lili.... besides i think my Vega is a sufficient enough counterpick. especially now that i have his meaty fierce crossover down. Jack cant get away from Vega.....


    The issue is that it bothers me that every other matchup no matter how hard is winnable with both Hugo and Gief. I hate having to resort to counterpicking... even if it is picking my main team.

    I'm curious as to how other Gief/Hugo players approach this match.

    One issue that Geif has once he finally gets in is that he is big enough to have to block both hits of Jacks HP dp. HP dp does have throw invincibility (aside from a few weird frames), it beats armor (so no charging bear grab to punish), and it allows for a safe tag on block with +frames for the incoming character.

    The unfortunate truth of this matchup is that once Geif gets in, Jack probably has at least 1 bar, so you can't even pressure him comfortably due to a safe tag cancelled HP dp. It's gonna be even worse come 2013, since Geif won't be able to roll in safely.



    btw having the opponent tag... even if it's safe is fine because it gets jack out.... and ANYONE is easier to get in on than him.

    Also, would alpha counter beat that safe tag option for a happy b-day?

    Edit: yes it does.
    Or wait for that one whiffed seismo and close the gap. Remember Jack can't do anything to you when you're fullscreen since his arm projectile gives no chipdamage. So when Jack dashes to get you into his HP seismo range, you dash/jump towards him.

    so far i've been working on this in the training room. It's risky as fuck and if the opponent guesses correctly you're fucked. But i think i've got the timing down if they dash.... now the issue is that if they dont dash. They can take 2 steps forward and be back in seismo range. If i keep walking back eventually there's gonna be a corner behind me. Being cornered against a full screen or semi full screen jack is not where gief or hugo wants to be
    "Nothing cheaper than something free."
    "You must wait at least 28623 seconds before performing this action."
    Jun 16, 2011 -- 12:28PM, DarthEnderX wrote:
    Makoto is about to have the best day ever.
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,817
    Here's an idea of what I would do: Stay full screen. Build meter (CADC, whiffing specials/normals). Once you have 1 bar walk in, block his seismos and alpha counter.

    In 2013 you won't get a combo off cross-cancel but it's still a hard knockdown and he won't roll because of rolls being punishable. So instead of using the hard knockdown to raw tag, you use that time to get in on Jack.

    So it's gonna be his chip damage vs your 120 damage cross-cancels. You will surely get the life lead before him this way and force Jack-X to come to you or tag his partner. Problem solved! He wants to lame you out I say lame Jack out even more and beat him at his own game.
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  • VegamanVegaman Soak in your own blood! Joined: Posts: 3,560 ✭✭
    Here's an idea of what I would do: Stay full screen. Build meter (CADC, whiffing specials/normals). Once you have 1-2 bars walk in, block his seismos and alpha counter (switch if you can).

    In 2013 you won't get a combo off cross-cancel but it's still a hard knockdown and he won't roll because of rolls being punishable. So instead of using the hard knockdown to raw tag, you use that time to get in on Jack.

    So it's gonna be his chip damage vs your 120/300 damage cross-cancels. You will surely get the life lead before him this way and force Jack-X to come to you or tag his partner. Problem solved! He wants to lame you out I say lame Jack out even more and beat him at his own game.
    ok lemme try this

    just a heads up tho.... neither gief nor hugo can combo off a tagged alpha counter. they land too soon. So that nerf in 2013 doesnt really hurt. Thank's UD for the green hand OS.
    "Nothing cheaper than something free."
    "You must wait at least 28623 seconds before performing this action."
    Jun 16, 2011 -- 12:28PM, DarthEnderX wrote:
    Makoto is about to have the best day ever.
  • eDaneeDane Joined: Posts: 99

    btw having the opponent tag... even if it's safe is fine because it gets jack out.... and ANYONE is easier to get in on than him.

    While this is technically true, it doesn't really help you with the Jack matchup, and Geif and Hugo both suffer from an inability to punish raw tags if the opponent gets some distance.

    Also, would alpha counter beat that safe tag option for a happy b-day?

    Edit: yes it does.

    I think this depends on what the opponent does on the way in. I'm pretty sure the incoming character can run cancel in plenty of time to end up safe against ACs because Jack is so fat. Geif may be an exception, though, because his AC travels so far forwards.

    I think Vulcan Hades' suggestion is the best option so far in regards to getting in and getting the knockdown. About building meter at full screen, though: Because of the width of both Geif and Hugo's hitboxes, Jack can tag you for charging/backdashing with a kara (off s.HP) HP seismo. No dash forwards required. Something to keep in mind.

    Side note: it is possible to combo after Hugo's Lariat AC with other characters. Have you tried going for slightly less optimal combos to enable Geif to hit that first attack? Can he juggle from any light attacks?
  • Juri_kills_friend!Juri_kills_friend! Leader of the Lili Army Joined: Posts: 2,032
    i don't like lili.... besides i think my Vega is a sufficient enough counterpick. especially now that i have his meaty fierce crossover down. Jack cant get away from Vega.....


    The issue is that it bothers me that every other matchup no matter how hard is winnable with both Hugo and Gief. I hate having to resort to counterpicking... even if it is picking my main team.

    I'm curious as to how other Gief/Hugo players approach this match

    btw having the opponent tag... even if it's safe is fine because it gets jack out.... and ANYONE is easier to get in on than him.

    Also, would alpha counter beat that safe tag option for a happy b-day?

    Edit: yes it does.

    so far i've been working on this in the training room. It's risky as fuck and if the opponent guesses correctly you're fucked. But i think i've got the timing down if they dash.... now the issue is that if they dont dash. They can take 2 steps forward and be back in seismo range. If i keep walking back eventually there's gonna be a corner behind me. Being cornered against a full screen or semi full screen jack is not where gief or hugo wants to be

    I completely understand. Vega def gives Jack x a problem. That's jack's current issue atm he can get vortexed very easily. And match ups like Lili only get worse since he can't roll away anymore.

    You could also have a lot of def gems or meter build gems on block because it would seem that you need all kinds of meter to beat jack-x. It could work for you. Or you could use speed gems to help with your slow walk speed. Those are some outlets you can try.
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  • VegamanVegaman Soak in your own blood! Joined: Posts: 3,560 ✭✭
    I completely understand. Vega def gives Jack x a problem. That's jack's current issue atm he can get vortexed very easily. And match ups like Lili only get worse since he can't roll away anymore.

    You could also have a lot of def gems or meter build gems on block because it would seem that you need all kinds of meter to beat jack-x. It could work for you. Or you could use speed gems to help with your slow walk speed. Those are some outlets you can try.

    I use life/def gems that kick in on super dulling a good 250+ damage off of it ... which if comboed into practically gives me more health than before super.. I'll look into speed and meter gems on block and see if i can scavenge something that way. I didnt think about that so thanks for that tip
    "Nothing cheaper than something free."
    "You must wait at least 28623 seconds before performing this action."
    Jun 16, 2011 -- 12:28PM, DarthEnderX wrote:
    Makoto is about to have the best day ever.
  • VegamanVegaman Soak in your own blood! Joined: Posts: 3,560 ✭✭
    While this is technically true, it doesn't really help you with the Jack matchup, and Geif and Hugo both suffer from an inability to punish raw tags if the opponent gets some distance.



    I think this depends on what the opponent does on the say in. I'm pretty sure the incoming character can run cancel in plenty of time to end up safe against ACs because Jack is so fat. Geif may be an exception, though, because his AC travels so far forwards.

    I think Vulcan Hades' suggestion is the best option so far in regards to getting in and getting the knockdown. About building meter at full screen, though: Because of the width of both Geif and Hugo's hitboxes, Jack can tag you for charging/backdashing with a kara (off s.HP) HP seismo. No dash forwards required. Something to keep in mind.

    Side note: it is possible to combo after Hugo's Lariat AC with other characters. Have you tried going for slightly less optimal combos to enable Geif to hit that first attack? Can he juggle from any light attacks?

    both hugo and gief can hit it if they delay the AC slightly. Actually if either do it too soon the incoming character will not get hit due the AC active frames ending before it makes contact with the incoming character. It's technically the equivalent of a meaty.

    It might be possible with other characters but gief's and hugo's normals and specials are just too slow to combo off a tagged AC. Gief's EX Green Hand MIGHT hit it but that'd be at a cost of 3 bars
    "Nothing cheaper than something free."
    "You must wait at least 28623 seconds before performing this action."
    Jun 16, 2011 -- 12:28PM, DarthEnderX wrote:
    Makoto is about to have the best day ever.
  • Miguel RossingtonMiguel Rossington Dedicated Nina Williams Player Joined: Posts: 290
    Hugo both suffer from an inability to punish raw tags if the opponent gets some distance.

    Just do the flying butt move. What better punish could there possibly be?
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,817
    Might as well turn this into an anti-Jack-X thread. :p

    So apparently there are a few lucky characters that have the ability to avoid Jack's meaty seismos on wake up due to their quick backdash/evasion move covering a lot of distance.

    setup used to test: j.HK, s.HP xx LP DP, MP DP, LP DP (whiff), MP Seismo (hits late quickstand)

    -Julia can backdash avoid but can't punish in time
    (post patch: the nerf to backdash might not allow her to avoid seismo in 2013. But it could also allow her to punish Jack with Super. It will depend on how much her backdash got nerfed)
    -Xiaoyu can backdash avoid and punish with Super. Or get in with EX Shooting Star (not a punish).
    -Chun Li, Dhalsim, Ibuki Law and Raven can also backdash to avoid it but only if seismo is timed early/late.
    (Out of those characters, only Dhalsim and Law cannot punish Super. But they might be able to punish with Cross-Assault into partner Super)
    -Poison can avoid with KK backflip but can't punish in time.
    -Vega can avoid with KKK backflip but can't punish in time.

    Obviously, the Jack player can predict the backdash/backflip and do an HP seismo instead so it's a 50/50 I guess.

    Akuma, Bison, Dhalsim and Yoshimitsu can wake up teleport but don't recover fast enough to get a punish.

    You can of course use an invincible or armored reversal to blow through the first hit of seismo. This is impossible to do on reaction, you need to guess. So if the reversal you use is unsafe on block, switch cancel it.

    You can also Pandora to get a punish but again, it's a guess. (still great if you're at a pixel of health and they're trying to chip you out)

    At this distance vs MP Seismo, all characters can cross-cancel. Cross-canceling the first hit is harder, it's much easier to block the first hit and f+HP+HK the second one.

    Cross-cancels vs MP Seismo best to worst: (not taking cross-cancel xx switch into consideration)

    Abel - full punish (will change to tackle in 2013) great range
    Zangief - 130 great range
    Kuma - 130 good range
    Marduk - 130 good range
    Jack-X - 130
    Hugo - 130 good range
    Dictator - 120 best range
    Claw - 120 good range
    Bryan - 120 wall bounce, great range
    Blanka - 120 good range
    Raven - 120 good range
    Yoshimitsu - 120 good range
    Nina - 120 good range
    Paul - 120 good range
    King - 120 interesting range
    Kazuya - 120
    Lei - 120
    Christie - 120
    Cammy - 120
    Ogre - 120
    Juri - 120
    Boxer - 120
    Asuka - 120
    Hwoarang - 120
    Steve - 120
    Law - 120
    Sagat - 120
    Jin - 120
    Julia - 120
    Bob - 120
    Rolento - 120
    Lili - 110 interesting range
    Sakura - 110 interesting range
    Guile - 100 good range
    Ryu - 100
    Xiaoyu - 100
    Heihachi - 100
    Elena - 100
    Cody - 90
    Rufus - 90
    Lars - 60
    Dudley - 60
    Dhalsim - 60 second hit whiffs
    Ibuki - 50
    Akuma - 40
    Chun Li - 40
    Alisa - 30
    Guy - 30
    Poison - 20
    Ken - 40 doesn't knockdown LOL (Jack gets a free punish)

    Best Cross-cancels vs HP Seismo:

    Abel - cross-rush (until 2013).
    Zangief - 130 on 2nd hit, cross-rush on 1st hit.
    Claw - 120 on 2nd hit minimal range, cross-rush on 1st hit.
    King - cross-rush on 1st hit.
    Lili - cross-rush on 1st hit minimal range.
    Sakura - cross-rush on 1st hit minimal range.
    Dictator - 120 max range.
    Bryan - 120 wall bounce, max range.

    Other characters with good range (Kuma, Marduk, Hugo, Blanka, Raven, Yoshimitsu, Nina, Paul) can cross-cancel vs HP Seismo but need to be at minimal range.
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  • eDaneeDane Joined: Posts: 99
    snip.

    This stuff is great to know! Thanks for the work you've put into testing this!.

    To play devil's advocate here in the interest of fully exploring this info, I have a few points to make.

    Backdash vs Meaty Seismos: What you are risking if you backdash too many seismos is not the next range of seismo, but an EX tackle. EX tackle catches most backdashes, even at HP seismo range, for a 400+ punish, a lot of corner carry, and is safe on block.

    AC vs Seismos: I've tested out some of these (Zangeif's is fantastic for getting in off blocked seismos at any range), and the one caveat is that if the seismo you AC is switch canceled, most characters can be punished the by incoming character because they have nearly the full screen to run cancel into anything. I would recommend trying to exclusively AC the second hit of a seismo most of the time, because if you AC the first hit (i.e. to get a boost combo with Geif) and they happen to switch cancel, the incoming character gets a free punish, with dictator being a possible exception.
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,817
    Thanks for the heads up. Yeah I see what you mean now after having tested it a little more.. If I AC on the first hit and they switch cancel, they get a free punish. Actually, even AC on the second hit is not 100% safe depending on the spacing.. That kinda sucks.. But it's still pretty useful imo because Jack won't always go for a switch everytime he throws a HP seismo unless he's really stupid. Most of the time Jack players just want to chip, push you away, build meter and keep that precious meter for defense DP xx Switch and EX tackle, not spend it for no reason.

    Anyway, here's a small vid showing the ideas of my previous post:

    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • WantonxWantonx Mooseknuckle Sammich Joined: Posts: 2,108 ✭✭
    Even though I play Jack and don't want you to beat me lol, I may be able to help a little with the Gief vs jack match when I get home and have time to type up something.
    Having seen Cool Runnings a bunch of years ago, I consider myself a certified bobsledding expert
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  • VegamanVegaman Soak in your own blood! Joined: Posts: 3,560 ✭✭
    Even though I play Jack and don't want you to beat me lol, I may be able to help a little with the Gief vs jack match when I get home and have time to type up something.
    think of it this way. would you rather have me counterpick than learn the bad matchup?

    lol
    "Nothing cheaper than something free."
    "You must wait at least 28623 seconds before performing this action."
    Jun 16, 2011 -- 12:28PM, DarthEnderX wrote:
    Makoto is about to have the best day ever.
  • eDaneeDane Joined: Posts: 99
    Jack won't always go for a switch everytime he throws a HP seismo unless he's really stupid. Most of the time Jack players just want to chip, push you away, build meter and keep that precious meter for defense DP xx Switch and EX tackle, not spend it for no reason.

    I agree that this is useful anti-Jack tech, and while I agree with the above statement for the most part, I want to clear something up.

    Jack tag cancelling a blocked seismo is not necessarily spending it for no reason. If the Jack player is running meter gems it's likely he will have a meter advantage after zoning for a while. If life bars are close, and if Jack has any recoverable health at all, tagging out on a seismo can be a sound tactical decision because it allows the incoming character a point blank mixup. I can't tell you the number of comebacks and round ending combos I've gotten from tagging in Heihachi off a blocked seismo, mixing up with his overhead/lows (which can be timed to be "meaty," thus negating the vulnerability of startup frames) and taking dominant control of the pacing. This approach can work well with any second character that has good close range mixup potential.
  • WantonxWantonx Mooseknuckle Sammich Joined: Posts: 2,108 ✭✭
    think of it this way. would you rather have me counterpick than learn the bad matchup?

    lol
    True, I hate fighting vega more than anyone
    Having seen Cool Runnings a bunch of years ago, I consider myself a certified bobsledding expert
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  • Juri_kills_friend!Juri_kills_friend! Leader of the Lili Army Joined: Posts: 2,032
    True, I hate fighting vega more than anyone
    I thought Lili was bad? Guess i gotta remind you why it's one of his worse match-ups >=D
    JOIN THE LILI ARMY! FOFOFOFOFOFOFO!
    SFXTekken: Ken x Lili (Money Inc) and maybe juri and sakura, and rolento, and maybe nina too!
    2012; Majors Gone to: Winter Brawl, Civil War 4, Capcom 25th Anniversary NYC
    Lili Reset Guide & Video Guide by yours truly JKF
  • WantonxWantonx Mooseknuckle Sammich Joined: Posts: 2,108 ✭✭
    I thought Lili was bad? Guess i gotta remind you why it's one of his worse match-ups >=D
    Anytime :)
    Her and Vega are my worst ones but Lili doesn't make me feel as bad as Vega. I think it's because he annoys me
    Having seen Cool Runnings a bunch of years ago, I consider myself a certified bobsledding expert
    XBL : Racetract
  • HertogHertog Joined: Posts: 240
    Anytime :)
    Her and Vega are my worst ones but Lili doesn't make me feel as bad as Vega. I think it's because he annoys me

    Maybe it's because I main both and I know Jack's tricks. But Blanka is one of his worst nightmares.
    He can't touch the little guy and he hops all around him depleting his life fast.

    Never had any trouble with Jack's when I got Blanka in my team. Just never roll, because seismo's beat a blanka ball :|
    Not that you ever should be rolling from some ditance with Blanka.
    SSF4:AE Blanka,Guile, T.Hawk and Hakan

    SFxT: Blanka, Jack-X, King, Rolento, Guile and Megaman/Kuma for the trololololol
  • WantonxWantonx Mooseknuckle Sammich Joined: Posts: 2,108 ✭✭
    As far as Gief vs Jack goes, it is a pretty lopsided match until you can get close. Any Gief I've lost to with Jack was usually tagged in or I just fucked up. The last part is what I think you should focus on. No one is perfect with patience, inputs, spacing etc. You almost have to wait on him to fuck up or bait him into it by making yourself appear unsafe (kinda like crouching then standing with a shoto to act like you're going to hadouken). You'll take damage in the process but when you get in it really sucks for jack. if you can out think the Jack player good enough to get in odds are up close you can really stick it up his ass. A lot of jack players ( I'm guilty of this a lot of times) will want the ko at a certain point and try to go in for big damage if they have you down enough so that is something else to look for. I've never really used Gief in any game but I'd think here that meter building gems would aid you in this match. I think someone already said that above. It's just one of those matches where you really have to outplay them a lot harder than they have to outplay you imo.
    I'm not the best with jack but good enough to where we could run a set and help you figure out something to make it a little less of an annoying matchup. If I can see how you use Gief I might be able to help a little better. Then I can try to talk you into using Vega for my practice :)
    Having seen Cool Runnings a bunch of years ago, I consider myself a certified bobsledding expert
    XBL : Racetract
  • GemakaiGemakai HadouKen what Others HadouKan't Joined: Posts: 825 ✭✭
    -Julia can backdash avoid but can't punish in time

    Julia EX steps (HCF.P) have armor on them. I don't have Jack-X to test this, but can't she do an ex step in prediction of a seismo, potentially getting a crumple of HCF.(MP+HP)?
    BBCS:EX: Hakumen, Noel, Bang, Hazama | USF4: Vega, Makoto, Elena, Yun, Sakura | UMvC3: Felicia/Doom/Strider
    SFxT: Elena, Paul, Dudley, Vega, Asuka, Law, Julia, Bryan | P4A: Naoto, Aigis, Kanji, Shadow Labrys
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,817
    ^
    You can of course use an invincible or armored reversal to blow through the first hit of seismo. This is impossible to do on reaction, you need to guess. So if the reversal you use is unsafe on block, switch cancel it.
    Yes, any armored move works as long as you're in range to hit. If you're a bit too far, you'll get hit by the 2nd hit of seismo.

    King has that Shoulder move that can absorb 1 hit. It's a little hard to do (i.e. timing and spacing it so you don't get hit by the 2nd hit of seismo) but on a good read he can use that to close distance and get a punish on Jack. edit: He can also use it as a wake up reversal wow. Meterless cross-cancel for King!
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • VeggeyVeggey Joined: Posts: 352
    You cannot fight Jack with Zangief in this game. Its more or less 9-1matchup.

    Unless you have a character who specialises in different aspects of aerial and ground combat, you cannot fight against Jack.
  • Smoke*Smoke* Joined: Posts: 12
    Jack is a specific counter-pick to Hugo and Zangief. Both match-ups are more or less 9-1 match-ups.
  • HertogHertog Joined: Posts: 240
    Jack is a specific counter-pick to Hugo and Zangief. Both match-ups are more or less 9-1 match-ups.

    *if* he has a lifelead.
    SSF4:AE Blanka,Guile, T.Hawk and Hakan

    SFxT: Blanka, Jack-X, King, Rolento, Guile and Megaman/Kuma for the trololololol
  • Juri_kills_friend!Juri_kills_friend! Leader of the Lili Army Joined: Posts: 2,032
    Jack is a specific counter-pick to Hugo and Zangief. Both match-ups are more or less 9-1 match-ups.
    yuuuuuup. Like i mentioned before one character like jack-x can counter pick your whole team which is not good at all. The best approach is to even out the weakness or completely counter pick. Learning to just deal with the match up can frustrate you if all your avenues of approach and offense are hindered. In the end you'll only know that your characters suck against jack-x.
    JOIN THE LILI ARMY! FOFOFOFOFOFOFO!
    SFXTekken: Ken x Lili (Money Inc) and maybe juri and sakura, and rolento, and maybe nina too!
    2012; Majors Gone to: Winter Brawl, Civil War 4, Capcom 25th Anniversary NYC
    Lili Reset Guide & Video Guide by yours truly JKF
  • therooktherook ...Why? Joined: Posts: 3,216 ✭✭✭
    You know what I do against Jack-X? Yank my Ethernet Cord....thats what....Jack-X Vs no internet is a 10-0 match....and you wouldn't guess in who's favor.
    SFIV: Guy, Cody, E.Ryu, Poison.
    Gundam Extreme: Wing Zero(TV)
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  • J0E LEWISJ0E LEWIS Joined: Posts: 766
    I'm going to make a thread about this,


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