How should "transform" characters be ranked?

Kagato

Phoenix, Frank, and Wright are the unique "transformation" characters in this game in which, when first starting out, they're only average (or the worst in the game in Wright's case). They're not hyper-combo forms. They're actual true character transformations. However...

Dark Phoenix is far more capable than normal Phoenix.
Every level up Frank gets increases his overall ability.
Wright gets better with every good piece of evidence he finds and each new form he's in.

However, it seems no one takes these things into account. For example, Wright in investigation mode, no evidence and no assists is, honestly, the worst in the game. But that's not how his character is optimally designed. What if Wright gets 2-3 good pieces of evidence and changes to Trial mode? Is he still the worst character? What about if he gets Turnabout mode? Is he still the worst character?

What about Frank? Is he still only average at level 2? What about 3? Or even level 4-5? Is he still only average then, or does he indeed become a better character?

Dark Phoenix is the most immediate change, of course, but is Dark Phoenix only as good as normal Phoenix?

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. Yes, I'm behind the current tier positions for these characters... if they haven't leveled up or changed forms at all. But once they start leveling up, they start getting better.

I feel that these characters are multi-tier characters. Not single-tier. What's your opinion?

DevilJin 01

The problem is you have to work to make them that level and they still have bad matchups or general issues when powered up. Anything where you have to already be winning to unlock your true power isn't as scary in a game where there's so many ways to die really fast or do similar space control tactics.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk 2

FlyingVe

It's risk/reward.

It's exactly like ranking every other character, there's just another axis along which a level up character can fuck up.

eivellordsm2

FlyingVe, post: 7664584, member: 23416 wrote:

It's risk/reward.

yea so what team they need to help level up how easy it is and of course how good they are when levelled up
so I'd say frank (he's probably the 2nd easiest just give him dante, nova or wolvy ),level4 is amazing level 5 is just leads to BGs due to how god like he is.
then phoenix because she needs 5 bars and x factor to level us to full potential however almost all the cast with 5 bars and level 3 x factor is amazing.
Mr wright where to start firstly it isn't permanent, two getting him their varies a lot it can be the easiest or the hardest depends on your luck on evidence and if the opponent is playing safe. Finally when in turn about he isn't really that good.

Kagato

eivellordsm2, post: 7664702, member: 78706 wrote:

Finally when in turn about he isn't really that good.

I highly disagree, but this isn't the topic for that discussion.

eivellordsm2

Kagato, post: 7664812, member: 59194 wrote:

I highly disagree, but this isn't the topic for that discussion.

yea bickering about mr wright is another thread but I meant as a level up/ it doesn't make him tournament tier...

FlyingVe

eivellordsm2, post: 7664702, member: 78706 wrote:

yea so what team they need to help level up how easy it is and of course how good they are when levelled up
so I'd say frank (he's probably the 2nd easiest just give him dante, nova or wolvy ),level4 is amazing level 5 is just leads to BGs due to how god like he is.
then phoenix because she needs 5 bars and x factor to level us to full potential however almost all the cast with 5 bars and level 3 x factor is amazing.
Mr wright where to start firstly it isn't permanent, two getting him their varies a lot it can be the easiest or the hardest depends on your luck on evidence and if the opponent is playing safe. Finally when in turn about he isn't really that good.

lvl5 Frank is good but not that good.

The only reason Frank is better than the other two is because his assist is amazing. That way you are guaranteed access to his assist, and as such he contributes to the match even if he ever gets to lvl. The other two don't have it so lucky.

eivellordsm2

FlyingVe, post: 7664927, member: 23416 wrote:

lvl5 Frank is good but not that good.

The only reason Frank is better than the other two is because his assist is amazing. That way you are guaranteed access to his assist, and as such he contributes to the match even if he ever gets to lvl. The other two don't have it so lucky.

I suppose but overdrive for jean is a good combo extender just not that good

Kanta-Kun

FlyingVe, post: 7664927, member: 23416 wrote:

lvl5 Frank is good but not that good.

No, he is THAT good. He has health (which he gains more of with each level up), The best normals in the game (only thing he's missing is a fast low), easy damage, low execution requirement, very strong hypers to use, a great assist, decent mixup ability and one hell of a set of incoming mixups. Just wait till more people start pairing him up in proper teams (like bee from canada did, and there are even better ones) and you'll see that not only is it very easy to get him to level 5, he's a monster when he gets there.

A friend of mine plays a Nova/Frank/Ammy team. If he hits with Nova, you will deal with lvl4-5. If you kill Nova, he can still get lvl4-5 from any hit with Frank and Ammy (I believe that includes close-to-fullscreen THC snipes). If you snap in Frank, you still have Nova Ammy which is a decent pair with 2 capable anchor characters.

Frank West is only a gamble or a liability if you play him in an un-optimized team.

Bonuspokus

Kanta-Kun, post: 7665233, member: 14833 wrote:

No, he is THAT good. He has health (which he gains more of with each level up), The best normals in the game (only thing he's missing is a fast low), easy damage, low execution requirement, very strong hypers to use, a great assist, decent mixup ability and one hell of a set of incoming mixups.

Totally agree, he is THAT good. You just forgot how insane his meter gain is, 2-3 meters per combo, that shit is sick.

Blue Lightning

I swear to you, the day will come when someone who actually knows what he's doing and has a Frank team that doesn't suck, he'll run a train on everyone. Bee is on the right track and he has an incredibly legitimate Frank but honestly he could still do to optimize a couple of things (not that I mean any disrespect, dude his godlike and I look up to him as a Frank player, but that doesn't mean I can't point out a few things he could do better in). I don't think many people realise just how much BS that a level 5 Frank can put you through just from being there. He has the best normals in the game bar none, except maybe Vergil because fuck st.H. And even then it's a fair fight. Vergil can be a nuisance at midscreen because he can constantly harass you with st.H and cancel those into judgement cut or commit to Rapid Slash into swords or DT. Frank can be a huge pain in the ass at the exact same range by constantly harassing you with his godlike M button (be it jumping, crouching or god help you, standing Medium, that shit is dumb). And even if you block, you're losing health because his chip is nothing to scoff at. You can't simply hold your defense patiently because Frank is more than content to keep you that way until you commit to something dangerous. And he has enough to tools to deal with that. God forbid you go for a YOLO super because survival techniques will go right through it. I think the only hypers that can outright beat Survival Techniques at level 4-5 is Weapon X Prime, Mach Speed and little else (there might be a few more but I don't remember but I assure you that it's not much more).

Not to mention that his optimized combos, while very very execution friendly, will deal upwards from 900k with a single bar while building at least 2 of them (sometimes 3) which is a guaranteed DHC for even extra damage and a dead character. Oh and his corner combos will reach 970 pre-hyper. We're now trying to find a combo that will hit 1 mil pre-hyper but it's hard (#level5frankproblems tbh ). With one hyper he'll hit over 1.1m. How dumb is that?

I could write an entire thesis on why Frank West is very slept on and why people claiming that he's too much of a gamble have simply never played a decent Frank (or at least one with a team that can level him up). A lot of the higher tiered characters can level him up with ease and a good portion of them will send you straight to level 4. That's goddamn huge. Nova, Skrull and Doom (among others) can all DHC into Frank for him to take his picture and get to level 4 guaranteed without him having to be on point. Trish can use her Round Harvest as a DHC to then raw tag into Frank and allow him to take a picture. Then you just have characters like Dante, Vergil and Amaterasu who can do anything or be anywhere you want and still give Frank his chainsaws for free, it's insane.

Mark my words, Frank West will have his day to shine, I tell you.

SB Maximus

Since they require work to get them to be good they are low on the ranks. But the characters are really good when they are at their most powerful states. Neutral phoenix still gives me problems. Frank can be extremely tricky with the right assists. Haven't played against a good Wright, most that I play spam Maya assist and aren't very careful.

Clonedpickle

[quote="SB Maximus, post: 7667118, member: 78424"Haven't played against a good Wright, most that I play spam Maya assist and aren't very careful.[/quote]
I do spam maya shield but to change into trial to spam his projectiles backed by doom beam if I feel like zoning

DevilJin 01

Frank already had enough days to shine with Noel Brown doing well with him, Kusoru winning a major with level 3 Frank and Bee doing his shit at Canada.

It's just it all kinda falls apart if the point character gets hit and dies and then Frank falls into an incoming mix up where he can't do anything but dive to try to escape. That's why putting Spencer up front helps cuz he has good health and forces people to really optimize their combos or go for TAC infinites to kill him in one shot. It's just...you could just put somebody else that's already as good as 5 Frank behind Spencer.



This is an interesting argument though because Zappa is the same typical "do this and that to make me good" character and he was lower tier in the older Guilty Gear games but apparently is now in S tier by himself in the latest Guilty. Which is reminiscent of Dark Phoenix in Vanilla. It's just there's still too many ways to deal with powered up Frank by enough characters where I just can't really see him going up to more than high/mid tier at best even at 4 or 5.

Viewtiful Joe's Mach Speed and Viper's Emergency Combination both have more invincible frames than 4 or 5 Frank Survival Techniques.

Blue Lightning

Noel Brown is actually not that good an example. I'm not trying to talk down on him, I think he's a pretty solid player, but for a Frank team, his just isn't that good. He doesn't even use the guaranteed setup for level 4, he still goes for the TAC when there's a better one (or more than one even). And he could do to optimize some of his combos (seriously, it's so easy and obvious). Kusoru's Frank is a pretty weak example too, I don't even remember him doing anything at final round except for that sick setup on Champ's Dark Phoenix with FFC. Aside from that, it was pretty much all Joe and Log Trap. Justin Wong has a pretty strong Frank Team but he rarely levels him up, he's mostly there to push the cart around. Bee, however, is a pretty good example and I hope more people follow on his foot tracks soon enough. Also, I'd already mentioned Mach Speed, but I had no idea EC could beat it. Can't Viper also EX seismou through it? Maybe JC backwards to block?

DevilJin 01

Blue Lightning, post: 7667593, member: 9207 wrote:

Noel Brown is actually not that good an example. I'm not trying to talk down on him, I think he's a pretty solid player, but for a Frank team, his just isn't that good. He doesn't even use the guaranteed setup for level 4, he still goes for the TAC when there's a better one (or more than one even). And he could do to optimize some of his combos (seriously, it's so easy and obvious). Kusoru's Frank is a pretty weak example too, I don't even remember him doing anything at final round except for that sick setup on Champ's Dark Phoenix with FFC. Aside from that, it was pretty much all Joe and Log Trap. Justin Wong has a pretty strong Frank Team but he rarely levels him up, he's mostly there to push the cart around. Bee, however, is a pretty good example and I hope more people follow on his foot tracks soon enough. Also, I'd already mentioned Mach Speed, but I had no idea EC could beat it. Can't Viper also EX seismou through it? Maybe JC backwards to block?

Yeah that's why people have been hyping up Viper's supers so much despite her not having a safe super. You're not going through that super with much more than maybe 5 or 6 of the game's other supers. EX seismo doesn't have enough invincibility to go through it (thankfully), but she can always jump cancel and block. TK Hard Drive and Gamma Crush will also go through it obviously.

Blue Lightning

Ok good stuff, the more you learn :P also, pretty sure morrigan's level 3 beats it too. Speaking of which, looking at an invincibility chart that was previously posted here, I think the only level 1 hypers that will always beat lvl4-5 ST are "Order in the Court!", Emergency Combination, Mach Speed, Gamma Crush and Hard Drive. Darkness Illusion and Crawler Assault do have slightly more invincibility, but it depends on which is done first. If ST is done last, it'll beat both, otherwise it'll be stuffed. Pretty dumb that it beats most level 3s though, lol

DevilJin 01

Most level 3's aren't really designed to push through the neutral any way. They're just for unscaled damage usually.

evilweevle

frank and pheonix are not even in the same catergory of power up characters as PW is.

the big problem with leveling PW is that you have to use him on point to level him up. with both frank and pheonix you can leave them in the back and just play wesker/spencer/mags/zero/vergil/who ever the fuck and then either just resist on spending the meter (pheonix) or just go for an easy TAC or DHC and get access to a level 4-5 frank and youre all good.

If PW had a similar mechanic where you could let him sit on the bench all match and then bring him in mid combo with full evidence/turnabout mode all ready to go with an easy TAC/DHC then im sure we d see him being played a lot more.

can you imagine how many people would be using frank or pheonix if the only way to level them up was to play them on point? not fucking many let me tell you.

Clonedpickle

evilweevle, post: 7668110, member: 12392 wrote:

frank and pheonix are not even in the same catergory of power up characters as PW is.

the big problem with leveling PW is that you have to use him on point to level him up. with both frank and pheonix you can leave them in the back and just play wesker/spencer/mags/zero/vergil/who ever the fuck and then either just resist on spending the meter (pheonix) or just go for an easy TAC or DHC and get access to a level 4-5 frank and youre all good.

If PW had a similar mechanic where you could let him sit on the bench all match and then bring him in mid combo with full evidence/turnabout mode all ready to go with an easy TAC/DHC then im sure we d see him being played a lot more.

can you imagine how many people would be using frank or pheonix if the only way to level them up was to play them on point? not fucking many let me tell you.

This 100% agree..also pheonix and frank does not have to worry about the random factor like with evidence with PW

Sottle

Noel Brown is not a Frank player, he's a Shopping Cart and Jump.M player.

Bakuhakubasugasu

Sottle, post: 7668191, member: 10554 wrote:

Noel Brown is not a Frank player, he's a Shopping Cart and Jump.M player.

No, he's a stand up player.

poryon2

Just continuing on how bad PW is in comparison to the other level up characters, the way to level him up is inefficient as well. Phoenix gets more meter by getting hits, or by getting hit, and Frank levels up by taking photos during combos. Both of those methods involve doing damage to the opponent, so not only are you leveling up you're also killing the enemy. PW levels up by collecting evidence, which doesn't involve damaging the opponent (there are some setups possible, but only with certain assists) so it's entirely possible to just barely get to the optimal level and get killed while the opponent has 3 characters with full health.

My 2 cents on how transform characters should be ranked, judge them mostly by a few things. How good of a character they are at "level 1", how much better they can become, how risky it is to level them up/how reliable setups are, and how valuable they can be to the rest of the team.

eivellordsm2

poryon2, post: 7673415, member: 55542 wrote:

Just continuing on how bad PW is in comparison to the other level up characters, the way to level him up is inefficient as well. Phoenix gets more meter by getting hits, or by getting hit, and Frank levels up by taking photos during combos. Both of those methods involve doing damage to the opponent, so not only are you leveling up you're also killing the enemy. PW levels up by collecting evidence, which doesn't involve damaging the opponent (there are some setups possible, but only with certain assists) so it's entirely possible to just barely get to the optimal level and get killed while the opponent has 3 characters with full health.

yea thats why he's pretty much dirt tier with shuma...

Kanta-Kun

Also count in the Luck/Random factor for wright, of which there is none in levelling up Frank or PhoPho.

Clonedpickle

Kanta-Kun, post: 7673858, member: 14833 wrote:

Also count in the Luck/Random factor for wright, of which there is none in levelling up Frank or PhoPho.

I already said that but ya, Phoenix and Frank don't have to worry about being random like with PW with evidence plus..PW is not much of a threat in Turnabout as much as Dark Phoenix and lv 5 frank is I mean PW has a self unblockable and is a chip monster and a good lv 3 but ya..Just wish PW's crouching finger hit low and was more consistent with good evidence.

Poltergust

Well, don't forget that you can DHC Wright in once you kill a character to get like 4-5 pieces of evidence for free.

But yeah, it's not guaranteed that you'll get 3 good pieces, and even then you still have to land the Objection (there are a variety of ways to do it, but still). Until then you still have a character who has no range and average to great zoning capabilities (depending on the match-up and evidence you get).

Well, at least he has Order in the Court.

evilweevle

last time i played someone using pheonix wright i was able to pick up about 10 pieces of evidence at various points during the match.

yea, i never managed to get a full set either. it was all bad. shit i wouldnt even mind a frigging EX evidence grab. spend meter to guarantee good evidence could actually work.

Clonedpickle

evilweevle, post: 7679092, member: 12392 wrote:

last time i played someone using pheonix wright i was able to pick up about 10 pieces of evidence at various points during the match.

yea, i never managed to get a full set either. it was all bad. shit i wouldnt even mind a frigging EX evidence grab. spend meter to guarantee good evidence could actually work.

I hear ya my luck is either I get a full set of evidence or get 2 then get tons of bad evidence after getting the 2

NonSexualRice

Poltergust, post: 7679079, member: 55364 wrote:

Well, don't forget that you can DHC Wright in once you kill a character to get like 4-5 pieces of evidence for free.

But yeah, it's not guaranteed that you'll get 3 good pieces, and even then you still have to land the Objection (there are a variety of ways to do it, but still). Until then you still have a character who has no range and average to great zoning capabilities (depending on the match-up and evidence you get).

Well, at least he has Order in the Court.

That 77 frames on invincibility.

MetaSkipper

The reason Wright isn't up there with his fellow power-up characters is that Turnabout is the exception, not the rule, with him. He has some great tools, some cool set-ups, but it's way too hard to collect all that evidence and land that Objection. Frank? You ain't doing something right if you don't get to at least 3. Jean? Your opponent has to plan how to keep her under control. Wright? You can do EVERYTHING Wright (/snicker)... and still not get an Objection. You can play Trial, and he's certainly not too bad trial, but if you don't plan to get to Turnabout, you're better off picking someone else.

weskerlvl3win

transform chars (at this point frank) really add alot to the game imo.

they make point characters who u like viable with cheesy crap. u can start alot of chars on point, tac, biuld frank up and boom you win the match (at this point in time )

frank west, with his fraudulent, scrubby skilllessness makes ur favorite char viable. bc u land 1 hit with say point wesker, who is mediocre, and boom you can win the game and your fave char is now viable.

thats how i see him and nix....

lawlHT

weskerlvl3win, post: 7781307, member: 77372 wrote:

transform chars (at this point frank) really add alot to the game imo.

they make point characters who u like viable with cheesy crap. u can start alot of chars on point, tac, biuld frank up and boom you win the match (at this point in time )

frank west, with his fraudulent, scrubby skilllessness makes ur favorite char viable. bc u land 1 hit with say point wesker, who is mediocre, and boom you can win the game and your fave char is now viable.

thats how i see him and nix....

weskerlvl3win

bro pick point wesker against vergil, trish, magneto, morridoom....gosh theres so many

then get back to me

NonSexualRice

Wesker is not "mediocre" on point.

He's still quite good. In fact, very good. It's just that at this point and time people have to realize that you can't just scrub it out with wesker and be successful, and now have to contribute to using 1/4 of you brain to use him correctly.

Shocking, I know.

weskerlvl3win

yeah fight morridoom then tell me that

fuck outta here with that theory craft shit ur not gona outfootsie or out mixup wolv akuma or vergil beam. then on top of that you have to beat them in a ridiuclous battle then u cant even kill them because weskers damage is fucking shit

NonSexualRice

How am I the one theorycrafting when you're the one putting Wesker in hypothetical situations?

Please learn what "theory-crafting" refers to before you use the word. Holy shit, wesker a single character has trouble with a duo that a majority of the cast has as well?


Wesker's damage isn't even bad. The hell are you whining about? Assistless he deals about 760k starting from a c.M and builds the bar.

I also laughed at Wesker lack of an ability to outfootsie characters. Do you even play Marvel?

DeskLampTV

His name is weskerlvl3win, He probably thinks that wesker is the best anchor too. Seriously though, I find a good pint wesker much more intimidating than a good anchor wesker with no assists to back him up.

weskerlvl3win

NonSexualRice, post: 7783290, member: 45634 wrote:

How am I the one theorycrafting when you're the one putting Wesker in hypothetical situations?

Please learn what "theory-crafting" refers to before you use the word. Holy shit, wesker a single character has trouble with a duo that a majority of the cast has as well?


Wesker's damage isn't even bad. The hell are you whining about? Assistless he deals about 760k starting from a c.M and builds the bar.

I also laughed at Wesker lack of an ability to outfootsie characters. Do you even play Marvel?

760 is good...really....

fucking online players

NonSexualRice

weskerlvl3win, post: 7783636, member: 77372 wrote:

760 is good...really....

fucking online players

You're by far one of the dumbest people I've ever had the misfortune to run into on these forums.

760K SOLO is completely acceptable.

weskerlvl3win

yeah how much does spencer do fucking 1.1 or some shit

NonSexualRice

weskerlvl3win, post: 7783680, member: 77372 wrote:

yeah how much does spencer do fucking 1.1 or some shit

Now lets ask ourselves, how much do all these characters do for 1 bar assistsless?

How much damage does Arthur Do?
How much damage does Hawkeye do?
How much damage does Haggar Do?
How much damage does Ryu Do?
How much damage does Trish Do?
How much does Firebrand do?
How much does H-Ko do?
How much does Ammy do?
How much does VJ Do?
How much does Ghost Rider do ?
How much does Iron-Man do?


Are you always this stupid or are you only this stupid on Saturdays?

weskerlvl3win

trish kills in 1 hit (unblockable)

fire brand does too

the rest of those characters are booty.

oohhhh shittt i get it, u have jill frank west thats why ur pissed bc i call out ur scrubby shit lol

NonSexualRice

weskerlvl3win, post: 7783740, member: 77372 wrote:

trish kills in 1 hit (unblockable)

Trish does not kill in one hit, what the hell are you talking about. She has no unblockable solo either.

weskerlvl3win, post: 7783740, member: 77372 wrote:

fire brand does too

Firebrand doesn't kill in one hit solo either

weskerlvl3win, post: 7783740, member: 77372 wrote:

the rest of those characters are booty.

Totally irrelevant, however for arguments sake...

Then how much does Strider do with 1 meter solo?
How much does Regular Phoenix do with 1 meter solo?
How about Wolverine 1 meter solo?
Dante one meter solo?

weskerlvl3win, post: 7783740, member: 77372 wrote:

shittt i get it, u have jill frank west thats why ur pissed bc i call out ur scrubby shit lol

What? I'm not pissed at anything; and who I play is completely irrelevant. If anything, I'm just astounded at how much of a total idiot you are.

..and how are Jill and frank west even remotely scrubby?

weskerlvl3win

frank west is the new nix - poeple who cant play lvl up frank then look at me i can hang with the big boys now

jill is relaly fucking bad, i respect the jill

fuck solo this shit is in teams bro

NonSexualRice

weskerlvl3win, post: 7783798, member: 77372 wrote:

frank west is the new nix - poeple who cant play lvl up frank then look at me i can hang with the big boys now

jill is relaly fucking bad, i respect the jill

fuck solo this shit is in teams bro

What, in the history of FUCK, did I just read?

weskerlvl3win

u read my post bro

NonSexualRice

You sure?.. I had to take a second look and make sure it wasn't textual garbage.

I mean honestly in hindsight, what's the difference between your posts and textual garbage? Pretty much nil.

I

weskerlvl3win

is textual a word

Ouroborus

this is...........interesting

weskerlvl3win

i know some people just need to pick wesker on point and just witness for themselves how mediocre it is.